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post #1 of 26 Old 08-01-2019, 02:59 PM - Thread Starter
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3d editing solutions

When I set out to have some fun editing 3d I started here and came to the conclusion I needed Vegas, an HDR TD10 camera, and lots of time learning.

Months later... have camera, have finally loaded Windows on to my Mac and ready to get Vegas or ? Time to pull the trigger on an NLA -- Pop on here and read through lots of pages and, well I'm confused. Not sure which Vegas I need: 13, 14, Pro, Edit, Suite, etc), or do I need Edius, or Sony Movie Studio. Confused. And then do I need a Panasonic Z10000 because of a video conversion thing I've read about here I'm not sure I understand?

What I know: I have watched footage directly from the camera on my LG 3d TV and *want* the same HD quality resolution in my finished product. I am just a hobbyist and just going to dabble but I know I don't want to pop down to SBS and kinda know about MVC (well, I know it exists and sort of how it works). I want to end up with a 3d Blu Ray Disc, don't care about 3d menus (or any menus) but I want same quality as cam directly hooked up to the TV.

Bonus if I can take the disc and run it through MakeMKV to end up with a frame-packed MVC 1080 MKV file just like I would get if I ripped a commercial 3d BD to an MKV ... so I can run it through my Mede8er box.

I appreciate any help, and I appreciate the fact that there is a wealth of information on this forum. I'm just not able to digest it to come out with a solution as to which NLA to start with and if I need to can the Sony cams and invest in a 10000k.

Thanks in advance for any help.
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post #2 of 26 Old 08-01-2019, 09:50 PM
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Did you say you had a TD10? Really any of those will work. If you're looking for the cheapest solution, Power Director would work. You can create full resolution 3D discs. With TD10 it's interlaced recording only so one option is to output to 720p 3D for disc. The Panasonic Z10000 would offer 24p recording which is the highest resolution for Blu ray 3D in 1080p.

You can also output to side by side resolution which is half resolution and really isn't that noticeable as being half resolution. I haven't found a solution yet for these NLE's to work thru my KDLINKS box, but maybe it would work on yours. The MKV 3D files are not accepted. One option that would work would be to use Vegas Pro and burn a 3D iso and that would play. Power Director discs aren't official Blu ray 3D discs so they wouldn't work on those media players only 3D Blu ray drives.

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post #3 of 26 Old 08-02-2019, 04:43 PM - Thread Starter
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First, thanks very much for responding.
I know that the Mede8er will process files as they are output from a computer in 3d in the same quality 3d HD image that using HDMI from camera to TV will produce. So not worried about that.

Not going to render to SBS. I see a difference, and want to stay with what I see going out of the camera.

What I want is the same image quality after editing that the camera outputs to a TV. If that means I need to get a Z10000, ok. Though I am not sure I understand why I can't edit files from a TD10 then get the same exact quality as when I just output to TV.

Something to do with fps?

So the Cnet specs of the HD10 states:
AVCHD - 1920 x 1080 - 28Mbps - 3D HD (no fps listed)

where as the Cnet specs of the Z10000 is:
MVC - 1920 x 1080 - 50 fps - 28Mbps - 3D HD
MVC - 1920 x 1080 - 25 fps - 28Mbps - 3D HD
MVC - 1920 x 1080 - 24 fps - 28Mbps - 3D HD

and the TD20 (which I also picked up) is (according to Cnet):
MVC - 1920 x 1080 x 2 - 60 fps - 28Mbps - 3D HD

So if we were to compare the TD20 with the Z10000 isn't 60fps better than 50fps? I really don't know, so not asking a rhetorical question.

Then I see 1080i and 1080p. It's all a bit confusing!

I do know that I burned a disc straight from the camera through Play Memories Home from Sony and ended up with 720 3d, it most definitely did not have the same quality as just watching the file off the camera to the TV.

For editing: I am leaning towards Vegas, just want to make sure I don't have the same results as PMH and have the ability to do editing, of course. Cost not the biggest factor, but do I need Pro, Suite, Studio or --- there is very little information about 3d and even less on rendering 3d blu rays.

You see, I have read enough to ask a lot of questions but not sure of all the numbers and choices! If having a Z10000 is going to get me a real nice HD3d output from a disc, then great. If I don't need to get yet another camera, greater still.

Thanks in advance for any help.
Brad
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post #4 of 26 Old 08-02-2019, 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by 3d4ever View Post
First, thanks very much for responding.
I know that the Mede8er will process files as they are output from a computer in 3d in the same quality 3d HD image that using HDMI from camera to TV will produce. So not worried about that.

Not going to render to SBS. I see a difference, and want to stay with what I see going out of the camera.

What I want is the same image quality after editing that the camera outputs to a TV. If that means I need to get a Z10000, ok. Though I am not sure I understand why I can't edit files from a TD10 then get the same exact quality as when I just output to TV.

Something to do with fps?

So the Cnet specs of the HD10 states:
AVCHD - 1920 x 1080 - 28Mbps - 3D HD (no fps listed)

where as the Cnet specs of the Z10000 is:
MVC - 1920 x 1080 - 50 fps - 28Mbps - 3D HD
MVC - 1920 x 1080 - 25 fps - 28Mbps - 3D HD
MVC - 1920 x 1080 - 24 fps - 28Mbps - 3D HD

and the TD20 (which I also picked up) is (according to Cnet):
MVC - 1920 x 1080 x 2 - 60 fps - 28Mbps - 3D HD

So if we were to compare the TD20 with the Z10000 isn't 60fps better than 50fps? I really don't know, so not asking a rhetorical question.

Then I see 1080i and 1080p. It's all a bit confusing!

I do know that I burned a disc straight from the camera through Play Memories Home from Sony and ended up with 720 3d, it most definitely did not have the same quality as just watching the file off the camera to the TV.

For editing: I am leaning towards Vegas, just want to make sure I don't have the same results as PMH and have the ability to do editing, of course. Cost not the biggest factor, but do I need Pro, Suite, Studio or --- there is very little information about 3d and even less on rendering 3d blu rays.

You see, I have read enough to ask a lot of questions but not sure of all the numbers and choices! If having a Z10000 is going to get me a real nice HD3d output from a disc, then great. If I don't need to get yet another camera, greater still.

Thanks in advance for any help.
Brad
From TD10, understand this camera only records in interlaced format so for Blu ray 3D you're only options are 1080p 24 or 720p60 (or 50 but not relevant here). Generally, most around here will use 720p 60 from 1080i source as the frame rate is equal and no 3:2 pull down is used.

Now creating digital files you could render to 1080p30 (deinterlaced) but it's tricky what format to use for render. Power Director doesn't output top/bottom formats FYI. Side by side or t/b is generally easier when dealing with digital files. So you could use top/bottom full format and keep resolution 1080p30 but it depends on your display if top/bottom will work.

MVC file creation in Vegas Pro is also limited to 1080p24/720p60 so that's not going to work if you want 1080 resolution. I believe in PD you could create 1080p30 MVC but MVC files from there are not generally functional in anything other than PowerDVD.

Yes, from the camera via HDMI to TV you can output full frame packing on the Sony TD10, on the Panasonic Z10k you can only output SBS. Weird that the consumer version offered higher spec here at least in-camera.

I've shot footage on all of these cameras, when it comes to full resolution per eye or half resolution per eye, I can tell you 9 times out of 10 you would not notice the difference. I also used to think that both Vegas Pro and Power Director's lower MVC bitrate encoding would be an issue. As I discovered later on, it is not.

What matters most is your source encoding, as with any camera you want the best data encoding. The TD10 is a consumer camera and it's not as good as the Z10k and I also have the bigger Panasonic 3DA1 and that one is even better than the Z10k as far as bit rate.

So the TD10 and the Z10k both encode 3D in a single MVC file that's roughly 28mbps for both left/right views as well as audio, the files are AVCHD. Not the best codec even by 2010 standards but it's usable. The 3DA1 also uses AVCHD at least internally but it doesn't use MVC rather dual compressed streams so there's less compression for your source. GoPro 3D is also like this using a much higher bitrate and independent recording.

Really, it depends on what source you want to output to. If you're goal is Blu ray 3D and highest quality you'd want to shoot in 24p, that means the TD10 wouldn't cut it. But also note with 24p you'll have to slow down on panning and keep the camera more stabilized because of 24p judder.

Generally I only shoot in 30p/60i for home video stuff, if I know it's not for projects. Now I have been shooting in 3840x2160 30p but that's true progressive not interlaced and since there isn't a Blu ray 3D spec that supports 4K3D, it's not an issue for me. I typically just use digital format and top/bottom full for 4K3D half resolution. Now I could produce a UHD 3D disc. I could just output to top/bottom half file and change it to 60p then it's in a UHD spec format. But I've yet to pick up a UHD player. But the DVDfab software allows you to burn UHD compliant discs onto BD25/50 discs I think with same burner pretty sure. But it uses h. 265 encoding so would need a recent processor to handle it.

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Last edited by tomtastic; 08-02-2019 at 09:24 PM.
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post #5 of 26 Old 08-05-2019, 06:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tomtastic View Post
From TD10, understand this camera only records in interlaced format so for Blu ray 3D you're only options are 1080p 24 or 720p60 (or 50 but not relevant here). Generally, most around here will use 720p 60 from 1080i source as the frame rate is equal and no 3:2 pull down is used.

Now creating digital files you could render to 1080p30 (deinterlaced) but it's tricky what format to use for render. Power Director doesn't output top/bottom formats FYI. Side by side or t/b is generally easier when dealing with digital files. So you could use top/bottom full format and keep resolution 1080p30 but it depends on your display if top/bottom will work.

MVC file creation in Vegas Pro is also limited to 1080p24/720p60 so that's not going to work if you want 1080 resolution. I believe in PD you could create 1080p30 MVC but MVC files from there are not generally functional in anything other than PowerDVD.

Yes, from the camera via HDMI to TV you can output full frame packing on the Sony TD10, on the Panasonic Z10k you can only output SBS. Weird that the consumer version offered higher spec here at least in-camera.

I've shot footage on all of these cameras, when it comes to full resolution per eye or half resolution per eye, I can tell you 9 times out of 10 you would not notice the difference. I also used to think that both Vegas Pro and Power Director's lower MVC bitrate encoding would be an issue. As I discovered later on, it is not.

What matters most is your source encoding, as with any camera you want the best data encoding. The TD10 is a consumer camera and it's not as good as the Z10k and I also have the bigger Panasonic 3DA1 and that one is even better than the Z10k as far as bit rate.

So the TD10 and the Z10k both encode 3D in a single MVC file that's roughly 28mbps for both left/right views as well as audio, the files are AVCHD. Not the best codec even by 2010 standards but it's usable. The 3DA1 also uses AVCHD at least internally but it doesn't use MVC rather dual compressed streams so there's less compression for your source. GoPro 3D is also like this using a much higher bitrate and independent recording.

Really, it depends on what source you want to output to. If you're goal is Blu ray 3D and highest quality you'd want to shoot in 24p, that means the TD10 wouldn't cut it. But also note with 24p you'll have to slow down on panning and keep the camera more stabilized because of 24p judder.

Generally I only shoot in 30p/60i for home video stuff, if I know it's not for projects. Now I have been shooting in 3840x2160 30p but that's true progressive not interlaced and since there isn't a Blu ray 3D spec that supports 4K3D, it's not an issue for me. I typically just use digital format and top/bottom full for 4K3D half resolution. Now I could produce a UHD 3D disc. I could just output to top/bottom half file and change it to 60p then it's in a UHD spec format. But I've yet to pick up a UHD player. But the DVDfab software allows you to burn UHD compliant discs onto BD25/50 discs I think with same burner pretty sure. But it uses h. 265 encoding so would need a recent processor to handle it.
I thank you again for your time. Was a little busy...I found a site to download Vegas as a trial so I jumped in. Rendered a 2min project at MVC 24fps and see "trails" when anything moved. I tried it again at 60i and it was *almost* as good as the cam straight into the TV, but not exactly the same. I guess I didn't get it that you can't render to the same specs as what the cam does hooked straight to the TV, now I get it. But not sure why I'd go with SBS if I'm not putting it up on Youtube? I would assume that would be less like the image than on the BD at MCV/60i. I will experiment.

The Mede8er was able to play the iso directly off the hard drive and deciphers the MVC into 3don the TV with no issues. Also was able to use MakeMKV and create a MKV file with the same results.

Had the pleasure of watching some things on your channel and that was helpful. I watched the comparison of the 2 Panasonics many times, enough to note there were flowers in one that were not in the other, so I guess that comparison was not on the same day! The 3DA1 had the better image, as you said. I am assuming most of the color change was due to the filter? But how do you edit material when it's 2 files (one for each eye) --- can that be done in Vegas??

And while on the subject of 2 files, the 4k3d you have up there is impressive. How do you record that? I've seen photos on the forum of rigs with 2 cams, but how then did you zoom? I guess I have a lot of research to do.

While reading review on B&H about the Panasonics one guy was pretty pointed towards the JVC GS-TD1 and swears the image is better than the 3DA1. Comments on that?

Thanks again for your time.
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post #6 of 26 Old 08-05-2019, 11:57 PM
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3DA1 is professional 3D camera, has dual HD SDI outputs so you could use an external recorder and better compression codec than AVCHD, that's not something you can do on any of the other cameras. I haven't used the TD-1 so I can't compare directly. I have Red Hydrogen One, Fuji W3, Panasonic 3D1, 2 Sony TD10's, 2 GoPro 3D rigs, Panasonic Z10k, Panasonic 3DA1 and my best rig is my AX1003D which is dual Sony AX100 4K cameras. The biggest problem is sync which I don't have so I try to limit my shooting with that rig to less movement scenes where the frame sync isn't noticeable. The image quality is far better than any of my HD 3D cameras.

Zoom sync, I use IR remote which works both cameras simultaneously. I can generally zoom about 50% (approx 6x), beyond that I will have to adjust alignment in post at one end of zoom or the other because it will be off more at one end of zoom. The rig is pretty much spot on aligned but even a slight misalignment which there is, it can throw things off when you zoom in.

As far as side by side, it doesn't make as much difference as bitrate. You could use an external HDMI recorder with the Panasonic Z10k which would be limited to side by side half since it doesn't output full frame packing but the results are better than full resolution internal recording. That's why the 3DA1 is a pro camera because you have better internal compression and professional option of using external recording. But there's some other draw backs on that camera like it doesn't have full auto options. It's full manual operation, manual focus, manual iris, manual convergence. I wouldn't recommend it if you're looking for a run and gun camera. It's good for project work where you can take your time, use a tripod. It gets out of focus easy sometimes you won't know it outdoors on a sunny day. Done that a few times.

Yes, the problem with 60i is it's not a Blu ray 3D spec so you're left with other options like 60i to 24p conversion which usually looks ugly. Or lowering resolution to 720p 60 but same frame rate, still 60i is not 60p so not perfect either. You can remain in 60i/30p which would look best and still at 1080 but then the problem of 3D format that's usable. I usually just output to side by side or top/bottom.

Vegas can do left/right independent files, Power Director cannot. They have to be paired up in VP as left/right.

I have a 3D project I'm going to release on Blu ray 3D. a Botanical garden feature. It's 5 years in the making. Lol, mostly I just haven't worked on it much, start and stop and so on. I shot all of it with the big 3DA1 back in 2014 and there will be a few stills from the Fuji and Panasonic cameras. But all video is with that camera. Shot about 4 hours of footage and have that paired down to about 75 mins. Basically a 3D tour of the gardens And now it's taking longer because I decided to be cheap and creative and handle all the music/soundtrack myself so I've pushed things back again. Thought I might get it finished this year but probably not. But I am determined to finish it. It will be a 3D spectacle of color and detail. Something to show off your 3D TV.

Now of course it was filmed in HD, not 4K but it still looks pretty darn good because I used the 3DA1. I also managed to get every shot of the gardens absence of people which is extremely hard to do. Takes patience and many trips but I wanted to be able to show the gardens without anyone in it.

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Last edited by tomtastic; 08-06-2019 at 12:01 AM.
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post #7 of 26 Old 08-09-2019, 12:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tomtastic View Post
3DA1 is professional 3D camera, has dual HD SDI outputs so you could use an external recorder and better compression codec than AVCHD, that's not something you can do on any of the other cameras. I haven't used the TD-1 so I can't compare directly. I have Red Hydrogen One, Fuji W3, Panasonic 3D1, 2 Sony TD10's, 2 GoPro 3D rigs, Panasonic Z10k, Panasonic 3DA1 and my best rig is my AX1003D which is dual Sony AX100 4K cameras. The biggest problem is sync which I don't have so I try to limit my shooting with that rig to less movement scenes where the frame sync isn't noticeable. The image quality is far better than any of my HD 3D cameras.

Zoom sync, I use IR remote which works both cameras simultaneously. I can generally zoom about 50% (approx 6x), beyond that I will have to adjust alignment in post at one end of zoom or the other because it will be off more at one end of zoom. The rig is pretty much spot on aligned but even a slight misalignment which there is, it can throw things off when you zoom in.

As far as side by side, it doesn't make as much difference as bitrate. You could use an external HDMI recorder with the Panasonic Z10k which would be limited to side by side half since it doesn't output full frame packing but the results are better than full resolution internal recording. That's why the 3DA1 is a pro camera because you have better internal compression and professional option of using external recording. But there's some other draw backs on that camera like it doesn't have full auto options. It's full manual operation, manual focus, manual iris, manual convergence. I wouldn't recommend it if you're looking for a run and gun camera. It's good for project work where you can take your time, use a tripod. It gets out of focus easy sometimes you won't know it outdoors on a sunny day. Done that a few times.

Yes, the problem with 60i is it's not a Blu ray 3D spec so you're left with other options like 60i to 24p conversion which usually looks ugly. Or lowering resolution to 720p 60 but same frame rate, still 60i is not 60p so not perfect either. You can remain in 60i/30p which would look best and still at 1080 but then the problem of 3D format that's usable. I usually just output to side by side or top/bottom.

Vegas can do left/right independent files, Power Director cannot. They have to be paired up in VP as left/right.

I have a 3D project I'm going to release on Blu ray 3D. a Botanical garden feature. It's 5 years in the making. Lol, mostly I just haven't worked on it much, start and stop and so on. I shot all of it with the big 3DA1 back in 2014 and there will be a few stills from the Fuji and Panasonic cameras. But all video is with that camera. Shot about 4 hours of footage and have that paired down to about 75 mins. Basically a 3D tour of the gardens And now it's taking longer because I decided to be cheap and creative and handle all the music/soundtrack myself so I've pushed things back again. Thought I might get it finished this year but probably not. But I am determined to finish it. It will be a 3D spectacle of color and detail. Something to show off your 3D TV.

Now of course it was filmed in HD, not 4K but it still looks pretty darn good because I used the 3DA1. I also managed to get every shot of the gardens absence of people which is extremely hard to do. Takes patience and many trips but I wanted to be able to show the gardens without anyone in it.
Well, I have been doing lots of reading and some video watching. I am leaning towards the 3dA1 even though it's not run n gun. I have a TD10 & 20 I can use for that. I want to experiment with as good as I can get without putting together a 4k rig. Sounds like something for the distant future for me :-). The 3dA1 was (according to a video on it I watched) a $20k camera when it came out. Makes one under 2k look cheap by comparison and that is not much more than a Z10k will run.

So when you import from the 3DA1 into Vegas you can just use a card reader and then Vegas figures out how to synch them? Is the image really noticeably better than the Z10k when it comes off a Blu ray? I know, I am beating that horse to death but I don't want both. I can collect things too easily... need to nip that in the bud before I start!

I'm eager to see your project when complete. Plants up close in 3-d are a favorite subject of mine. Really show off the 3d. That and insects. Don't get to crazy with the music and postpone the thing to long... then end up never coming out with it... just trying to encourage.

I saw a rant on the forum from Jet-X and it rounded out what you had shared on the subject. I get it now I think, though bit rate is a mystery... 3DA1 looks to be the same bit rate as the others but I guess it's not crowded with 2 images in the same stream, thereby giving a better result. Is that about right? This 3d thing is a lot to digest all at once. But just don't get it that people brushed it aside as a fad. OK, so it's complicated. But so was 8mm film and having to set-up a projector and screen. So really, glasses are that much of a hassle? I just don't get it. But there are other things about people I just don't get so, one more thing, no big deal!

The other thing I guess I don't get is the SD HDout plugs...there must be an adapter/decoder or something to pop it into HDMI so you can get it into the monitor? Not finding what that is but have not really spent the time to find. Just want to make sure the 3DA1 is a better image before I put in the time I guess.

Thanks for the time and help. Much appreciated. Get on that music!
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post #8 of 26 Old 08-09-2019, 07:29 PM
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Working with the files, don't worry about it. I can walk you thru it. It will be the same if you're using GoPro 3D for those files. HD SDI, I haven't used an external recorder on mine yet. Keep thinking about it, but I don't use the 3DA1 as much now. Built in recording is pretty good.

Right now in New Mexico, and I brought my 4K3D rig, GoPro 3D rig for mount on hood for driving shots shooting 2.7k24p narrow mode on that one. Not sure how those will turn out, slightly bumpy road. Visited Bandelier today, shot about 55 minutes of 4K3D, nearly complete walk thru and GoPro 3D for drive in and out of entrance road. Haven't been there since 1994 so nice to get back there, very beautiful park.

The Panasonic Z10000 is a more complete camera, has more functions and easier to use. It's too bad they didn't make a 3DA2. But the 3DA1 can produce better overall image even with internal recording. For output, think you can only use one at a time, HDMI or SDI out, but if you're using SDI out and a Odyssey 7Q type recorder you'd have a monitor or just use the built in screen. You would still have to use the built in screen for 3D convergence unless you bought a special 3D monitor. The 3DA1 needs the close up adapter to correct the narrow field of view and 6' subject distance. With the Zunow kit it corrects that to about 2'. There's a cheap solution too if you can't pick up the Zunow.

Heading out to Chaco Canyon tomorrow, long drive there and back another long day. Yes, have to get back to work on that botanical feature. Music I took up playing native american flutes recently specifically Pueblo/Anasazi style end blown rim flutes so going to use some of that and maybe some light guitar instrumentals.

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[/QUOTE] Heading out to Chaco Canyon tomorrow, long drive there and back another long day. Yes, have to get back to work on that botanical feature. Music I took up playing native american flutes recently specifically Pueblo/Anasazi style end blown rim flutes so going to use some of that and maybe some light guitar instrumentals.[/QUOTE]


Tom and 3D4ever,


Just wanted to say hi and let you know I am following your posts with great interest. I am a long time 3D enthusiast but absolutely new to 3D video so on the newbie learning curve.



Thanks for everything you are sharing!
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post #10 of 26 Old 08-10-2019, 04:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Working with the files, don't worry about it. I can walk you thru it. It will be the same if you're using GoPro 3D for those files. HD SDI, I haven't used an external recorder on mine yet. Keep thinking about it, but I don't use the 3DA1 as much now. Built in recording is pretty good.

Right now in New Mexico, and I brought my 4K3D rig, GoPro 3D rig for mount on hood for driving shots shooting 2.7k24p narrow mode on that one. Not sure how those will turn out, slightly bumpy road. Visited Bandelier today, shot about 55 minutes of 4K3D, nearly complete walk thru and GoPro 3D for drive in and out of entrance road. Haven't been there since 1994 so nice to get back there, very beautiful park.

The Panasonic Z10000 is a more complete camera, has more functions and easier to use. It's too bad they didn't make a 3DA2. But the 3DA1 can produce better overall image even with internal recording. For output, think you can only use one at a time, HDMI or SDI out, but if you're using SDI out and a Odyssey 7Q type recorder you'd have a monitor or just use the built in screen. You would still have to use the built in screen for 3D convergence unless you bought a special 3D monitor. The 3DA1 needs the close up adapter to correct the narrow field of view and 6' subject distance. With the Zunow kit it corrects that to about 2'. There's a cheap solution too if you can't pick up the Zunow.

Heading out to Chaco Canyon tomorrow, long drive there and back another long day. Yes, have to get back to work on that botanical feature. Music I took up playing native american flutes recently specifically Pueblo/Anasazi style end blown rim flutes so going to use some of that and maybe some light guitar instrumentals.
Tom and dddiver,
Glad there is someone else here for the ride!

Still wondering if the 3da1 is more than I need to fiddle with...I'm waffling...something Jet-X wrote made me stop and see if I can try something else out:
"Continue to acquire at 1080i/60 and then either change editors (Edius/Power Director/Pinnacle Studio) to burn to a 1080i AVCHD disc, and hope you have compatible equipment that will play it back (and hold onto it, since the spec appears to be all but dead at this point)"
as one of his options of sticking with the TD-10. So I downloaded a trial of Edius since I do have a Sony BDP-S7200 bd player which is able to play bd discs outside of normal specs (and I think that includes what Jet-X is talking about) to see what kind of results I get... this is getting time consuming (Windows is new to me and Edius, obviously too) and giving me a headache but its fun nonetheless trying to figure out. Not sure if my Mede8er (dddiver: a media player that will play MVC 3d properly from hard drive to a TV) will play the file though. I have not tested it with anything other than .mkv files.
Will give results to this latest experiment in a few days if not by tomorrow.

In the meantime, I am a bit jealous you are in NM, I crave the food there - don't usually like hot food but New Mexican chile is the exception. Have you been to Acoma? Beautiful state. Impressive that when you say you will be adding your own music you mean you will be playing it yourself rather than a digital creation. Bravo! Look forward to your finished product.

dddiver: do you have a camera yet? I did not know they existed until recently. Was looking for 3d blu rays on eBay and found one by accident. Get a camera!

Take care and thanks for the help
Drive safe,
Brad, Vacaville, CA
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"Continue to acquire at 1080i/60 and then either change editors (Edius/Power Director/Pinnacle Studio) to burn to a 1080i AVCHD disc, and hope you have compatible equipment that will play it back (and hold onto it, since the spec appears to be all but dead at this point)"

OK, so I am confused. Again. This quote from Jet-X implies to me that I can take a 3d video from a TD10 shot in 1080 60i and burn it that way. If he meant SBS then I misunderstood, Edius won't do it any other way and Vegas (which I prefer) already does that.

But another guy posted the attached file which implied to me the same thing. He burned a 60i bd and it showed on his TV at 60i in 3d from a BD player. What am I missing?

thanks, Brad
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Originally Posted by 3d4ever View Post
"Continue to acquire at 1080i/60 and then either change editors (Edius/Power Director/Pinnacle Studio) to burn to a 1080i AVCHD disc, and hope you have compatible equipment that will play it back (and hold onto it, since the spec appears to be all but dead at this point)"

OK, so I am confused. Again. This quote from Jet-X implies to me that I can take a 3d video from a TD10 shot in 1080 60i and burn it that way. If he meant SBS then I misunderstood, Edius won't do it any other way and Vegas (which I prefer) already does that.

But another guy posted the attached file which implied to me the same thing. He burned a 60i bd and it showed on his TV at 60i in 3d from a BD player. What am I missing?

thanks, Brad
AVCHD 3D discs are frame packed, but so little software edits and exports in that format (Sony’s crappy Playmemories software that comes with 3D cameras will). Then, if you burn a Blu-Ray, you need a compatible Blu-Ray AND display to watch it natively. Most displays won’t accept a frame packed 60i signal (Sony sets do - not sure about others). It was a poorly thought out format.

I’ve since moved on to exporting finished edits in 1080p/24 and 720p/60 and putting both on disc (of family events) so I always have a choice. I could also output 3D SBS files in the original frame rate but progressively but haven’t done so. I use Vegas, it sucks but gets the job done along with DVD Architect. Outputting to AVCHD 3D is in my opinion pointless given the equipment chain required and the really crappy editing solutions.

I also only shoot on a Sony DEV-50 now because it produces a substantially better 3D image for all in one cameras.
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Thanks for your reply, Jet-X.

So I guess we figured this out... here it is for others in the future... I wanted a way to take files off my Sony HDR TD10 and TD20 and edit them to a file that would not play in a lesser resolution. I used Edius 9 to edit, set up the project as 1920x1080i/60 Stereoscopic and saved my edited movie in "export>print to file" and chose "AVCHD file, dual stream" (frame-packed). This burns a AVCHD m2ts data file onto a BD disc that you can then slip into your blu ray player. This is not a standard blu ray movie disc though, it's a data file on a disc. I guess I could have used a dvd disc then? So the blu ray player I have is an LG UBK90 and the monitor is an LG OLED 65C6P. The player had no issues nor did the monitor. I got a s3d image that was the same as what I started with. 1920x1080 29.97fps. Could I plug a usb stick with this file into my player? Don't know, didn't try.

But I also played the m2ts file through my Mede8er X3d box and it also played the frame-packed 3d m2ts AVCHD file without an issue. Yes, in 3d. No, not SBS. The Mede8er X3d tags it as a 1920x1080 29.97fps file. So the mede8er box is on my network and the files reside on my computer hard drive. You can also plug a USB stick or drive directly to the Mede8er box. It plays MVC or frame-packed 3d with no issues. It will also play 3d mkv files and isos of your favorite blu ray from an hd. Everyone should have one!

What I didn't get until Tom chimed in was that the Blu-Ray 3d standard was not the same as the file that came out of my camera so I would lose image quality if I edited the file. So I needed to render my finished product to 24p, which got ugly, or 1080x720 or SBS which was not giving me the same resolution I started with. Edius would also let me put my finished movie back on to my camera's SD card as an AVCHD file.

I get it that I can't hand this disc to anyone with a 3d monitor and 3d blu ray player like a 3d blu ray disc, not sure what players will play it. But the disc that came out of Edius is not the same as the file/disc that came out of Sony's Play Memories Home software. That disc would not play in the LG player, it would however play in a Sony player I have, but the resolution was not quite the same.

Hope this helps somebody someday. If I am in error somewhere here, somebody please chime in.

Brad

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jet-X View Post
AVCHD 3D discs are frame packed, but so little software edits and exports in that format (Sony’s crappy Playmemories software that comes with 3D cameras will). Then, if you burn a Blu-Ray, you need a compatible Blu-Ray AND display to watch it natively. Most displays won’t accept a frame packed 60i signal (Sony sets do - not sure about others). It was a poorly thought out format.

I’ve since moved on to exporting finished edits in 1080p/24 and 720p/60 and putting both on disc (of family events) so I always have a choice. I could also output 3D SBS files in the original frame rate but progressively but haven’t done so. I use Vegas, it sucks but gets the job done along with DVD Architect. Outputting to AVCHD 3D is in my opinion pointless given the equipment chain required and the really crappy editing solutions.

I also only shoot on a Sony DEV-50 now because it produces a substantially better 3D image for all in one cameras.
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Tom and dddiver,
Glad there is someone else here for the ride!

Still wondering if the 3da1 is more than I need to fiddle with...I'm waffling...something Jet-X wrote made me stop and see if I can try something else out:
"Continue to acquire at 1080i/60 and then either change editors (Edius/Power Director/Pinnacle Studio) to burn to a 1080i AVCHD disc, and hope you have compatible equipment that will play it back (and hold onto it, since the spec appears to be all but dead at this point)"
as one of his options of sticking with the TD-10. So I downloaded a trial of Edius since I do have a Sony BDP-S7200 bd player which is able to play bd discs outside of normal specs (and I think that includes what Jet-X is talking about) to see what kind of results I get... this is getting time consuming (Windows is new to me and Edius, obviously too) and giving me a headache but its fun nonetheless trying to figure out. Not sure if my Mede8er (dddiver: a media player that will play MVC 3d properly from hard drive to a TV) will play the file though. I have not tested it with anything other than .mkv files.
Will give results to this latest experiment in a few days if not by tomorrow.

In the meantime, I am a bit jealous you are in NM, I crave the food there - don't usually like hot food but New Mexican chile is the exception. Have you been to Acoma? Beautiful state. Impressive that when you say you will be adding your own music you mean you will be playing it yourself rather than a digital creation. Bravo! Look forward to your finished product.

dddiver: do you have a camera yet? I did not know they existed until recently. Was looking for 3d blu rays on eBay and found one by accident. Get a camera!

Take care and thanks for the help
Drive safe,
Brad, Vacaville, CA
Hi Brad,

Thanks for your message. I have done things a bit backwards. I already have a plethora of 3-D video cameras. I use some of them (Sony TD10 and TD20, JVC TD1 and GY-HMZ-1U) to play right to my LG 3D TV. Some others (Panny HZ1000, GoPro Hero 3+Black) I have not used yet, pending getting going with an NLE. I settled on Edius and have Pro 8. I just have not made the time to learn it yet.I am still working a very consuming day job and hope to have more time to play in the next year. I'll continue to monitor this forum and your progress with interest.

All the best,
Mark
Carmel, CA
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Hi Brad,

Thanks for your message. I have done things a bit backwards. I already have a plethora of 3-D video cameras. I use some of them (Sony TD10 and TD20, JVC TD1 and GY-HMZ-1U) to play right to my LG 3D TV. Some others (Panny HZ1000, GoPro Hero 3+Black) I have not used yet, pending getting going with an NLE. I settled on Edius and have Pro 8. I just have not made the time to learn it yet.I am still working a very consuming day job and hope to have more time to play in the next year. I'll continue to monitor this forum and your progress with interest.

All the best,
Mark
Carmel, CA
Mark, I hope you saw my latest post. And I hope I'm not dreaming here.

I have 2 cameras (ok, 3, found a TD10 priced to hard to pass up, so a spare, right?) and about to get another, though may just stick with what I have. Easy to want another, and another since they don't make them anymore! Hope this saved you some time. So is the image from the Pan Z10k much superior to the TD10?
Brad, Vacaville, CA
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I may have to revisit Edius. Tried it many years ago had nothing but issues. I’m intrigued, but hesitant to drop $200-$300 on software and the end result not work on my tv. Wished they had a demo
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I may have to revisit Edius. Tried it many years ago had nothing but issues. I’m intrigued, but hesitant to drop $200-$300 on software and the end result not work on my tv. Wished they had a demo
They do, that is what I have been using.
It's sort of hidden on this page:
https://www.grassvalley.com/products/edius_pro_9/

Apparently the player does not have to be able to play an AVCHD 2.0 file, like with PMB.
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Got back home late Sun. Whew, long day Sat. 3 hr. drive from Santa Fe to Chaco Canyon and back and a partial tour, didn't get thru everything there's so much there to see. And it was bright, sunny and hot so couldn't see everything, will have to go back another trip. Worse part was the entrance road, it's gravel but it's rutted the entire way, 8 mile minefield, very discouraging when considering returning, it's that bad and I even drove in with my Hummer. I went about 15 to 20 mph avg, but most cars would probably have to go 5 mph. One of the park people said when they come in with their trailer they drive 3-5mph and it takes 1.5 hours to get in.

Anyway, both days shooting I took 2D stills and 4K3D video. Problem is I wanted both good 2D images and 3D since I hadn't been to either park in forever, so I didn't get many 3D stills, a few with my phone, I didn't end up using the Fuji W3 at all. Wanted to stop at Fort Union on way home and drove past the exit, no quick place to turn around and then stopped at Capulin Volcano for drive up with GoPro3D, got it hooked up, drove in, parked at visitor's center and the road up was closed. The road collapsed couple days before when we drove in NM, I remember the rain. Oh, well.

Yes, forgot about AVCHD. It's a 3D format that's not talked about much. I don't know on compatibility, AVCHD was pretty big when 3D came out for blu ray so it might work on most Blu ray 3D players, don't know. I believe PD outputs AVCHD 3D too. I'll have to see if my KDLINKS box will play those files, it's pretty much a dumbed down version of Mede8er or others that can play mkv 3D files. Mine seems to only work with iso blu ray 3D files.

3DA1 camera, wish it had full auto and other features like the Z10k. I probably wouldn't want it as my only 3D camera. Last time I used it I know I had a few shots that were just completely out of focus and that's where a camera like the Z10k is just better. so much you don't have to worry about. If I was going to pick one camera as the best all around it would be the Z10k. I had a writeup here on the 3DA1, just search for 3DA1 owners thread. 3DA1, it's good for projects where you're not rushed or time constrained. If you're shooting something like an event or doing a lot of walking around, it isn't really the right camera for that. I do like the image quality out of it the best but the lack of features plus size is what makes it special use for me.

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Tom and 3D4ever,


Just wanted to say hi and let you know I am following your posts with great interest. I am a long time 3D enthusiast but absolutely new to 3D video so on the newbie learning curve.



Thanks for everything you are sharing!
Welcome Pull up a chair!

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Mark, I hope you saw my latest post. And I hope I'm not dreaming here.

I have 2 cameras (ok, 3, found a TD10 priced to hard to pass up, so a spare, right?) and about to get another, though may just stick with what I have. Easy to want another, and another since they don't make them anymore! Hope this saved you some time. So is the image from the Pan Z10k much superior to the TD10?
Brad, Vacaville, CA
Brad,

I don't know the answer yet, as I have not tried to playback the Pan Z10k on anything but the internal screen. What would you suggest as the simplest, but meaningful way for a newbie like me to compare image quality from these 3D video cameras (Sony, JVC, Panny 10K)? I will likely use one of them in an underwater housing, and image quality will be a major factor.

Thanks for mentioning the Mede8er. I read a bit about it and understand it can stream 3D media from my computer hard drive to my TV. Other than this 3D streaming function, does it do something important for a 3D video editing workflow or playback?

I hear what you say about buying up these cameras that are no longer made. I have obviously succumbed to that impulse. Of course, once another good 3D video camera comes along built to today's standards (and 3D is a trend that always repeats itself), the old cameras can be rendered nearly worthless. That certainly happened with the Toshiba video tape camera.

Many thanks,
Mark
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Brad,

I don't know the answer yet, as I have not tried to playback the Pan Z10k on anything but the internal screen. What would you suggest as the simplest, but meaningful way for a newbie like me to compare image quality from these 3D video cameras (Sony, JVC, Panny 10K)? I will likely use one of them in an underwater housing, and image quality will be a major factor.

Thanks for mentioning the Mede8er. I read a bit about it and understand it can stream 3D media from my computer hard drive to my TV. Other than this 3D streaming function, does it do something important for a 3D video editing workflow or playback?

I hear what you say about buying up these cameras that are no longer made. I have obviously succumbed to that impulse. Of course, once another good 3D video camera comes along built to today's standards (and 3D is a trend that always repeats itself), the old cameras can be rendered nearly worthless. That certainly happened with the Toshiba video tape camera.

Many thanks,
Mark
You need to talk to Barry or Don on here, maybe they'll chime in here at some point. I know Barry has done a lot of underwater, I have a Bahama's Blu ray he sent me, very nice. He uses a TD1 and 2 GoPro 3D, last I knew. There's also underwater filters to use, they know more about that I. I believe Barry shoots 29.97fps.

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Thanks for the tip. I actually have been chatting with Barry. He's been super helpful. I don't yet know who Don is.stic;58413344
You need to talk to Barry or Don on here, maybe they'll chime in here at some point. I know Barry has done a lot of underwater, I have a Bahama's Blu ray he sent me, very nice. He uses a TD1 and 2 GoPro 3D, last I knew. There's also underwater filters to use, they know more about that I. I believe Barry shoots 29.97fps.
Thanks for that suggestion. I actually have been chatting with Barry offline and he's super helpful. I don't yet know who Don is.


Mark
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Brad,

I don't know the answer yet, as I have not tried to playback the Pan Z10k on anything but the internal screen. What would you suggest as the simplest, but meaningful way for a newbie like me to compare image quality from these 3D video cameras (Sony, JVC, Panny 10K)? I will likely use one of them in an underwater housing, and image quality will be a major factor.

Thanks for mentioning the Mede8er. I read a bit about it and understand it can stream 3D media from my computer hard drive to my TV. Other than this 3D streaming function, does it do something important for a 3D video editing workflow or playback?

I hear what you say about buying up these cameras that are no longer made. I have obviously succumbed to that impulse. Of course, once another good 3D video camera comes along built to today's standards (and 3D is a trend that always repeats itself), the old cameras can be rendered nearly worthless. That certainly happened with the Toshiba video tape camera.

Many thanks,
Mark
Mark, I'd play them through HDMI straight to your TV, assuming you have a 3d monitor. Mede8er X3d is like a a FireTV or AppleTV box, essentially. It has a chip in it that can decipher MVC so you get a 3d image on the screen. As I understand it, the chip is not made anymore.

Hopefully 3d will come 'round again to consumer camcorders, but not holding my breath. It does have a tendency to repeat itself, doesn't it?

Underwater 3d is always a treat. Hope you can test out your cams real soon! I made need to get another one now just to be safe.

Edius is running a discount through August for the "home" version. It's the same, you just have to promise not to use it commercially and it is not upgradeable to 10. $239 for Edius Pro 9. I went ahead and pulled the trigger on that, want to get something going soon and probably has enough bells and whistles in it not to need the new upgrade that is no doubt being tweaked as we read this.

https://www.sharbor.com/grass-valley...RoCQo0QAvD_BwE

take care, Brad
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Got back home late Sun. Whew, long day Sat. 3 hr. drive from Santa Fe to Chaco Canyon and back and a partial tour, didn't get thru everything there's so much there to see. And it was bright, sunny and hot so couldn't see everything, will have to go back another trip. Worse part was the entrance road, it's gravel but it's rutted the entire way, 8 mile minefield, very discouraging when considering returning, it's that bad and I even drove in with my Hummer. I went about 15 to 20 mph avg, but most cars would probably have to go 5 mph. One of the park people said when they come in with their trailer they drive 3-5mph and it takes 1.5 hours to get in.

Anyway, both days shooting I took 2D stills and 4K3D video. Problem is I wanted both good 2D images and 3D since I hadn't been to either park in forever, so I didn't get many 3D stills, a few with my phone, I didn't end up using the Fuji W3 at all. Wanted to stop at Fort Union on way home and drove past the exit, no quick place to turn around and then stopped at Capulin Volcano for drive up with GoPro3D, got it hooked up, drove in, parked at visitor's center and the road up was closed. The road collapsed couple days before when we drove in NM, I remember the rain. Oh, well.

Yes, forgot about AVCHD. It's a 3D format that's not talked about much. I don't know on compatibility, AVCHD was pretty big when 3D came out for blu ray so it might work on most Blu ray 3D players, don't know. I believe PD outputs AVCHD 3D too. I'll have to see if my KDLINKS box will play those files, it's pretty much a dumbed down version of Mede8er or others that can play mkv 3D files. Mine seems to only work with iso blu ray 3D files.

3DA1 camera, wish it had full auto and other features like the Z10k. I probably wouldn't want it as my only 3D camera. Last time I used it I know I had a few shots that were just completely out of focus and that's where a camera like the Z10k is just better. so much you don't have to worry about. If I was going to pick one camera as the best all around it would be the Z10k. I had a writeup here on the 3DA1, just search for 3DA1 owners thread. 3DA1, it's good for projects where you're not rushed or time constrained. If you're shooting something like an event or doing a lot of walking around, it isn't really the right camera for that. I do like the image quality out of it the best but the lack of features plus size is what makes it special use for me.
Tom,
Just looked at the GoPro 3d setup... can you use (2) 4k Heros in that synched housing set-up?
I'm leaning towards a z10k again. I appreciate all the help. I've never seen rain in NM. All this talk is making me hungry for the food.

The blu ray player I am getting the AVCHD file to work on is new - I've got an older one - a Sony- I was going to try out (I read something about some Sonys play AVCHD 2.0 files) but when it worked I didn't try it. I think many 3d players play AVCHD files, not sure. I looked through lots of specs a few weeks back in some research, it was common. 2.0, not so much.

Drive safe
Brad
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Tom,
Just looked at the GoPro 3d setup... can you use (2) 4k Heros in that synched housing set-up?
I'm leaning towards a z10k again. I appreciate all the help. I've never seen rain in NM. All this talk is making me hungry for the food.

The blu ray player I am getting the AVCHD file to work on is new - I've got an older one - a Sony- I was going to try out (I read something about some Sonys play AVCHD 2.0 files) but when it worked I didn't try it. I think many 3d players play AVCHD files, not sure. I looked through lots of specs a few weeks back in some research, it was common. 2.0, not so much.

Drive safe
Brad
I guess it's the rainy season right now there.

No, GoPro Hero 3 plus Black edition are the final to support 3D with the sync cable/housing. Checked my GoPro hood-mounted footage, well first video entering Bandelier for some reason one camera shot video and the other took stills every few seconds. But it's just as well because it was sprinkling as we went in so it was ruined for 3D anyway with water spots on the housing. The drive out and the rest of the footage shot in 3D just fine so I don't know what happened. But it is a bit shaky so we'll see how it looks once it's paired up, but I think it might not be great. I have a better hood mount rig for larger cameras but I didn't take it along.

My Pioneer BD player supports AVCHD 2.0. I keep meaning to burn a AVCHD disc but never got around to it. For most part I usually play files digitally.

The Z10k is a nice camera. I like the 3DA1 but it is also frustrating to use at times. It's not a camera I would use for run and gun, you'll end up with shots out of focus or too dark or too light video. It's best for work where you can take your time and set up each shot, adjust everything manual, iris, convergence focus and then: action. The Z10k, personally I think it is the best camera that was made for 3D when considering everything including ease of use and quality, even though the video performance doesn't hold up quite as good as the 3DA1 but it's still pretty good. The 3DA1 was the first all in one HD 3D camcorder and it really came a little too early as so many features are not included like auto focus, auto WB, iris, image stabilization. If they had released a 3DA2 it would be the best 3D camcorder.

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post #26 of 26 Old 08-17-2019, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomtastic View Post



My Pioneer BD player supports AVCHD 2.0. I keep meaning to burn a AVCHD disc but never got around to it. For most part I usually play files digitally.
Your Tv must also support receiving frame packed 3D 1080i (not just the Blu-ray player). My Toshiba will not take frame packed 1080i (only 1080/720p or SBS). My Sony TV on the other hand will accept it. And this is from both the same make/model Blu-Ray and from camera itself.
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