Is 3D really dead? - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 38 Old 01-02-2020, 07:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by PCummins View Post
They're FHD (1920x1080) so not quite 2K (DCI 2K = 2048x1080). However they get 2 frame packed FHD images sent to implement 3D viewing. With 3D the second view is generated from difference data from the first 2D image so if you maximised the quality in the difference data you would expect to generally perceive the 3D movie to be higher quality/resolution over a 2D movie. (That's assuming both are using the same base 2D image data at the same or very similar bitrates).

Also it depends on which Ultra HD 4K movie you're watching. Quite a lot of 4K releases are really upscaled FHD (or 2K) releases that have been enhanced with HDR (of some form) and/or better audio. So you would only get marginal improvement in quality unless you got a Ultra HD disc that was recorded/mastered in 4K or greater resolution. See https://4kmedia.org/real-or-fake-4k/ for a list.
Thanks. The comparison I am making is really to 1080P movies which I think are 1920x1080. When I watch a 4K movie, the image is far less grainy than the 1080P movies. With the 3D movies, that is far less noticeable and I would have guessed they were a higher resolution. I guess the perceived resolution is higher from the difference data you mentioned. The 3D effect is incredible and I'm very happy with my overall picture. The other thing I notice is that the darks are darker since there is some loss with the lens and that seems to be a good thing. The dark contrast is outstanding. I'm assuming the projector is putting out more light to compensate since I hear it raise the fan speed higher than it typically runs.

Is there a good write up you know of that I can read up on 3D theory? I would like to understand what is really happening with polarized lenses versus the active lenses I am using.

Rick

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post #32 of 38 Old 01-02-2020, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by rdlohr View Post
Thanks. The comparison I am making is really to 1080P movies which I think are 1920x1080. When I watch a 4K movie, the image is far less grainy than the 1080P movies. With the 3D movies, that is far less noticeable and I would have guessed they were a higher resolution. I guess the perceived resolution is higher from the difference data you mentioned. The 3D effect is incredible and I'm very happy with my overall picture. The other thing I notice is that the darks are darker since there is some loss with the lens and that seems to be a good thing. The dark contrast is outstanding. I'm assuming the projector is putting out more light to compensate since I hear it raise the fan speed higher than it typically runs. Is there a good write up you know of that I can read up on 3D theory? I would like to understand what is really happening with polarized lenses versus the active lenses I am using.
I can't really comment on the film grain aspects (or lack thereof) on 4K, in some cases it's up to the mastering of the disc how much or little film grain (or even artificial film grain) is retained/introduced, or how much noise from recording is left in the final output if they've done some noise reduction (ie they were recording a dark sequence with less than stellar cameras or lighting). You'd also need to check settings on the projector to see how it's processing the 4K image (as it would be configured differently in HDR vs SDR FHD). You'd probably want to compare the Ultra HD vs the Blu-Ray disc (in 2D) to get a good comparison going (then the 2D vs the 3D disc if interested).

It sounds like you're watching on an Active 3D Projector - yes you'd get better contrast (but less brightness) as the Active Shutter glasses are blocking potentially 1/2 of the projector light output (or more?) however most 3D discs & devices will boost the brightness/gamma to compensate to a degree.

A quick read into Active vs Passive technology can be read here from rtings however the oft repeated "Passive is half resolution FHD" is misunderstood from a perceptual approach (vs a technical approach). A rather long comparison done by DisplayMate (about 2011, when Active vs Passive was under strong debate) is here - since then the last generation Passive TV's by LG in 4K (2014?-2016) are able to display both 3D frames simultaneously instead of only half each with a FHD display. Even with Passive FHD they were able to show it's possible to perceive a FHD image. You probably wouldn't get as much quality improvement over 2D with a Passive FHD vs a Passive 4K or Active display (since it's not showing as much visual data, unless there's some really good post-processing to maximise the difference data shown).
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post #33 of 38 Old 01-03-2020, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by NahsiK View Post
My LG 3D tv stopped making sound today. It has served me many years. It still shows a decent 1080p picture but I can't get the sound to work. So now I've gotta buy a new tv, luckily it's Black Friday and there are tv sales galore but obviously none of them do 3D.
I've looking online to try and find a new (old) 3D tv but the ones listed are EXPENSIVE on eBay.
Can't you still use the spdif output with an external amplifier/speaker?

My old LG tv also had regular sound issues. Usually switching it on/off would bring the sound back.
I bought a backup 3D tv just in case...
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post #34 of 38 Old 01-03-2020, 02:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by PCummins View Post
I can't really comment on the film grain aspects (or lack thereof) on 4K, in some cases it's up to the mastering of the disc how much or little film grain (or even artificial film grain) is retained/introduced, or how much noise from recording is left in the final output if they've done some noise reduction (ie they were recording a dark sequence with less than stellar cameras or lighting). You'd also need to check settings on the projector to see how it's processing the 4K image (as it would be configured differently in HDR vs SDR FHD). You'd probably want to compare the Ultra HD vs the Blu-Ray disc (in 2D) to get a good comparison going (then the 2D vs the 3D disc if interested).

It sounds like you're watching on an Active 3D Projector - yes you'd get better contrast (but less brightness) as the Active Shutter glasses are blocking potentially 1/2 of the projector light output (or more?) however most 3D discs & devices will boost the brightness/gamma to compensate to a degree.

A quick read into Active vs Passive technology can be read here from rtings however the oft repeated "Passive is half resolution FHD" is misunderstood from a perceptual approach (vs a technical approach). A rather long comparison done by DisplayMate (about 2011, when Active vs Passive was under strong debate) is here - since then the last generation Passive TV's by LG in 4K (2014?-2016) are able to display both 3D frames simultaneously instead of only half each with a FHD display. Even with Passive FHD they were able to show it's possible to perceive a FHD image. You probably wouldn't get as much quality improvement over 2D with a Passive FHD vs a Passive 4K or Active display (since it's not showing as much visual data, unless there's some really good post-processing to maximise the difference data shown).


Thanks, I read the quick read you listed. That's exactly what I was looking for. The brain is a tricky thing. Once it thinks something is 3D and you cover one eye, it can trick you into thinking it's still 3D even with one eye. It had me tricked until I really spent some time testing it.

I read the summary for the second one as well. As much as they tried to be unbiased, the complaints they had about shuttered glasses are not apparent in my system. Maybe the JVC implementation on my projector is much better than the TVs they tested, or maybe our eyes are not sensitive to the flicker. I've had four people watch 3D movies with me and they we blown away by the 3D and the great picture.


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Originally Posted by Jansen123 View Post
Can't you still use the spdif output with an external amplifier/speaker?

My old LG tv also had regular sound issues. Usually switching it on/off would bring the sound back.
I bought a backup 3D tv just in case...
This is a good point. It depends which part of the audio is defective. If it's in the amplifier section, this would by-pass that and work fine.



Rick

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post #35 of 38 Old 01-04-2020, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by rdlohr View Post
Thanks, I read the quick read you listed. That's exactly what I was looking for. The brain is a tricky thing. Once it thinks something is 3D and you cover one eye, it can trick you into thinking it's still 3D even with one eye. It had me tricked until I really spent some time testing it.

I read the summary for the second one as well. As much as they tried to be unbiased, the complaints they had about shuttered glasses are not apparent in my system. Maybe the JVC implementation on my projector is much better than the TVs they tested, or maybe our eyes are not sensitive to the flicker. I've had four people watch 3D movies with me and they we blown away by the 3D and the great picture.
I'd expect the newer projectors like yours to be running at 144 fps (Triple Flash, so it shows both frames of the 3D images 3 times) which has been shown to reduce flicker significantly. Note the DisplayMate article is from ~2011 so it's comparing the earliest TV specific Active vs Passive 3D so frame rates were 120 fps which was more likely to have perceivable flicker (and it's not comparing projector technology). DLP on 144 fps should have minimal crosstalk and flicker, not sure how JVC's D-ILA would compare however. If you're able to control the room lighting (which you would with a projector) you also would perceive less flicker as well.

There's still people arguing online about which technology is better (for TV's, that is - projectors are almost always Active 3D) but really comes down to whether you're happy with what you've got - sounds like you are so that's great. (I'm looking to pick up a 3D projector myself at some point in time before they completely disappear, trouble is just finding the space to fit it in). There's actually 4 technologies used for 3D on projectors at the moment - Dolby 3D/IMAX Laser 3D/Infitec, Real 3D (Circular Polarised), IMAX 3D (Linear Polarised) and Active 3D, so if you're interested it's worth reading up on them if you have the time.
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post #36 of 38 Old 01-05-2020, 07:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by PCummins View Post
I'd expect the newer projectors like yours to be running at 144 fps (Triple Flash, so it shows both frames of the 3D images 3 times) which has been shown to reduce flicker significantly. Note the DisplayMate article is from ~2011 so it's comparing the earliest TV specific Active vs Passive 3D so frame rates were 120 fps which was more likely to have perceivable flicker (and it's not comparing projector technology). DLP on 144 fps should have minimal crosstalk and flicker, not sure how JVC's D-ILA would compare however. If you're able to control the room lighting (which you would with a projector) you also would perceive less flicker as well.

There's still people arguing online about which technology is better (for TV's, that is - projectors are almost always Active 3D) but really comes down to whether you're happy with what you've got - sounds like you are so that's great. (I'm looking to pick up a 3D projector myself at some point in time before they completely disappear, trouble is just finding the space to fit it in). There's actually 4 technologies used for 3D on projectors at the moment - Dolby 3D/IMAX Laser 3D/Infitec, Real 3D (Circular Polarised), IMAX 3D (Linear Polarised) and Active 3D, so if you're interested it's worth reading up on them if you have the time.
Thanks, that may well explain why it is working so well for me.

It appears 3D is not as dead for projectors as it is for TV. Luckily there is quite a bit of 3D content out there. Hopefully projectors will continue to support it for a long time.

The active vs passive argument is interesting, but unless you are getting ready to buy a new projector, it's merely interesting since you have no choice once you have a given projector. Too bad the 3D technology is not simply bolted on so you could try both and pick what you like.

I would enjoy reading up on the technologies. If anybody has a good link(s) they could post I'm glad to spend a bit of time on it.

I highly recommend picking up a 3D projector. It's definitely an added dimension to the theater experience.

Rick

JVC DLA-X590R Projector, Oppo UDP-203, Denon AVR-S940H, 125" Milliskin Silver/White Spandex AT Screen, Black Velvet on hung ceiling

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post #37 of 38 Old 01-05-2020, 11:07 AM
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I was a huge naysayer on 3D when it came out and passed it off as some gimmick. A few months ago I finally upgraded to a 3D projector with DLP link technology and never thought I would even use it. Then the day came where I made a stroll through the local rental store and came across a bunch of 3D Blurays for sale at a whopping 2 for $3 as they were clearing out their inventory. I picked up almost all of then and while most are the type I wouldn't even pick just on the movie/plot alone, I did get a fair share of Marvel and DC flicks. A pair of 3D glasses later and a showing of Captain America: The First Avenger I was hooked and driving all around my area to the other movie rental outlets cleaning house on their inventory of 3D Blurays. Even in 1080p I was blown away by the experience and have been bitten by the 3D bug. I do hope for a sort of rennaisance on 3D support and look forward to see how it pans out and if not, there's still a back catalog of titles that'll keep me busy for quite some time.
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post #38 of 38 Old 01-05-2020, 01:13 PM - Thread Starter
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I was a huge naysayer on 3D when it came out and passed it off as some gimmick. A few months ago I finally upgraded to a 3D projector with DLP link technology and never thought I would even use it. Then the day came where I made a stroll through the local rental store and came across a bunch of 3D Blurays for sale at a whopping 2 for $3 as they were clearing out their inventory. I picked up almost all of then and while most are the type I wouldn't even pick just on the movie/plot alone, I did get a fair share of Marvel and DC flicks. A pair of 3D glasses later and a showing of Captain America: The First Avenger I was hooked and driving all around my area to the other movie rental outlets cleaning house on their inventory of 3D Blurays. Even in 1080p I was blown away by the experience and have been bitten by the 3D bug. I do hope for a sort of rennaisance on 3D support and look forward to see how it pans out and if not, there's still a back catalog of titles that'll keep me busy for quite some time.
I was never really a naysayer per se since I really enjoyed the Disney 3D rides, but it was not a real factor when I bought my projector and it was more of a whim that I bought the emitter and glasses this year. I have definitely been pleasantly surprised.

Rick

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