Will 3D be a Phoenix? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 34 Old 12-31-2019, 11:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Will 3D be a Phoenix?

It's extremely unfortunate for 3D fans, but there appears to be no possibility that any company will make even a limited series of 3D TVs for devoted fans of the genre. When we consider that remaining 3D sets are selling for a high price, especially those OLED sets that haven't suffered burn-in, it seems odd that no company will take advantage of the world-wide demand for 3D, knowing that such a company will be the only one offering 3D. But it makes no sense to harp about the fact; it is what it is.

Yet, consistent rumors and so-called leaked spec sheets (none of which I've actually seen) give rise to the possibility that 3D might very well have a future, and a surprisingly robust one. I don't believe it will be enough to have a 4k 3D image on an 8k TV, using passive-shutter glasses, as it would be too much like the same old thing. What will be unique, though, is having an 8k glasses-free 3D image.

We know that prototypes of glasses-free 3D have already been made, although the results are so far disappointing, but the power of an 8k set might allow the technology to leap the final hurdle. Perhaps that might happen within the next 15 years or so. And if glasses-free 8k 3D becomes standard, how it's delivered might be interesting. Broadcast stations will never have the power to display 8k 3D, so I believe it will be the province of either disc or download. Discs would be too limited, I think, and so 8k 3D movies would be bought or rented from services that would allow a movie to be downloaded into a DVR (streaming would be too unreliable). As is the case today, a rented movie would automatically be deleted from a DVR, while a purchased movie could be deleted from a DVR at leisure and always be available in a customer's library. I would guess that in 25 years this type of movie delivery will be standard, and disc systems will be almost entirely non-existent.

If I'm right, today's 3D (what's left of it) will be seen as the second of three evolved steps toward what will one day be a standard display format. Broadcast programs will always be 2D, while downloading will always be in 8k 3D. But if so, that begs an obvious question--since TV manufacturers have to sell units to stay in business, what in the world can they possibly think of to top glasses-free 8k 3D?
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post #2 of 34 Old 12-31-2019, 04:40 PM
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I went and viewed an 8K TV, a Samsung 82" QLED on Christmas eve. I played the demo content they had. I wasn't blown away by it. At 10 feet it looked the same as 4K. I couldn't tell it was any better resolution. Up close, it might have looked sharper, I could tell the pixels were smaller, not being able to see them at 2 or 3 feet. You wouldn't watch from that close anyway. I think 4K3D would be far more immersive than 8K 2D resolution.

I'm looking forward to seeing Lit by Leia screens. Supposed to be releasing larger screen sizes and products. Just don't know when. They mentioned TV products too, I just hope it gets here soon. I could see one up stairs in living room in a more casual setting.
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post #3 of 34 Old 01-01-2020, 10:12 AM
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I must say, 3D on my Optoma 4K 51ALV is very 4K looking. It's the best I've seen yet, and not sure 4K3D would give me a better image. And that's a 160" screen 15 feet away. We watched Passengers in 4K and Passengers in HD3D, and were clearly wowed by the 3D image and not so much the 2D 4K image.
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post #4 of 34 Old 01-01-2020, 12:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tomtastic View Post
I went and viewed an 8K TV, a Samsung 82" QLED on Christmas eve. I played the demo content they had. I wasn't blown away by it. At 10 feet it looked the same as 4K. I couldn't tell it was any better resolution. Up close, it might have looked sharper, I could tell the pixels were smaller, not being able to see them at 2 or 3 feet. You wouldn't watch from that close anyway. I think 4K3D would be far more immersive than 8K 2D resolution.

I'm looking forward to seeing Lit by Leia screens. Supposed to be releasing larger screen sizes and products. Just don't know when. They mentioned TV products too, I just hope it gets here soon. I could see one up stairs in living room in a more casual setting.
I also viewed the 8k demo, and like you was not impressed with the fact that it was 8k. On paper it's supposed to be twice as detailed as 4k, but it wasn't until I was within a few feet that I noticed any increase in detail, and that wasn't much. But I wouldn't throw 8k into the dust bin just yet. OLED has an advantage over QLED in the fact that it has deeper contrast, giving the impression that it has a more detailed picture. And so, from an appropriate seating distance 4k looks at least as good as 8k. That much has been shown on YouTube videos that you can easily access. But what will happen when we have 8k OLED or 8K micro LED? We don't yet know, but I have a feeling that 8k will definitely make a strong impression when those forms of technology are used. In any event a 4k/8k comparison is really a moot point. Television manufacturers can't stay in business unless they sell product, and since the 4k market is beginning to become saturated, 8k is already emerging as the next big thing.

And that brings us to 3D. I agree that a 1080p 3D picture looks as good as a 4k 2D picture. Long before 4k was released, when 3D was in its heyday and nobody could have imagined that it could fail, I was amazed at the incredible picture quality of 3D discs. Most of the early content was total garbage, but the picture was fantastic. But that too may be a moot point, at least in my opinion. By the time 3D is again introduced to the public, I believe 8k will be pretty much standard, and developers aren't going to put this new rendition of 3D in an old 4k set.

I'd like to see glasses-free 8k 3D in ten years, as a last chance for success. If it does indeed catch on, I see it not as a niche market, but as a technology that encompasses all forms of recorded entertainment; dramas as well as sci-fi fantasy. And its success will leave me asking a question: After micro LED 8k 3D, where in the world do developers find the next big thing?
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post #5 of 34 Old 01-01-2020, 06:49 PM
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Actually, I think 8K is 4 times the resolution of 4K not twice the resolution. 4K is 4 times the resolution of HD and 16K will be 4 times the resolution of 8K.

Personally, I think HD is fine even now with 4K and 8K coming. I keep reading these articles on what they are referring to as the decade of 3D (2010-2020), as if 3D is no more. Many of us love 3D and want it to return. I think what failed is the manufacturers. They removed 3D from the market, making the choice for us.

That said, I love my 65" OLED screen but I think the best overall experience is still my projector. If you want the best cinematic experience, go big. You can still get a 3D projector new.
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post #6 of 34 Old 01-05-2020, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by tomtastic View Post
Actually, I think 8K is 4 times the resolution of 4K not twice the resolution. 4K is 4 times the resolution of HD and 16K will be 4 times the resolution of 8K.

Personally, I think HD is fine even now with 4K and 8K coming. I keep reading these articles on what they are referring to as the decade of 3D (2010-2020), as if 3D is no more. Many of us love 3D and want it to return. I think what failed is the manufacturers. They removed 3D from the market, making the choice for us.

That said, I love my 65" OLED screen but I think the best overall experience is still my projector. If you want the best cinematic experience, go big. You can still get a 3D projector new.
I'm new to the 2K3D scene and I'm absolutely loving it. Luckily there are lots of titles out there available right now for cheap, but it's unfortunate there will be no new content. Hopefully by the time we are all sick of the existing content the next generation of 3D will come in and blow us all away.

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post #7 of 34 Old 01-05-2020, 11:04 PM
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I haven't heard of Blu ray 3D ending so there should be more titles coming for years and years. It's more difficult now as you likely have to order from overseas but that's been the case for awhile now. And for the best overall 3D experience, pick up a projector if you have the room for it. Or try to hunt down a flat panel with 3D, those ended in 2016. Sony still had a couple models selling up till early last year.

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post #8 of 34 Old 01-05-2020, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by 4kfan View Post
And that brings us to 3D. I agree that a 1080p 3D picture looks as good as a 4k 2D picture. Long before 4k was released, when 3D was in its heyday and nobody could have imagined that it could fail,
3D has been tried before, and failed, and will probably be tried again. This last time around, when I learnt that you still needed glasses, I spent my money elsewhere. I didn't actually predict it would fail, but I had enough doubts that I adopted a wait and see attitude. It's one of those holy grail technologies that never seem to gain the critical mass to keep going.
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post #9 of 34 Old 01-06-2020, 01:12 PM
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All this talk about failing and yet 3D is still in theaters. There's still a pulse folks. Wait and see... that's for investors. If you like 3D, get it, enjoy it, don't follow the masses and what they decide to make your own decisions. I think this decade and current era of 3D has been far more successful than you might imagine. Think of all the classic era 3D titles that have been resurrected onto Blu ray 3D. That's never happened before. Avatar 2 will kick off the new decade and is rumored to top Avenger's Endgame money. And while I'm on the subject of Avatar, Endgame managed to break Avatar's record, but keep in mind Avatar managed to set its goal during the recession, not to mention Endgame doesn't count for inflation either, if I'm reading the numbers right. And the success of Avatar was largely due to its unique use of 3D.

I think people who are counting 3D as a fail are considering that in order to be a success 3D has to take over the market. That was how it was hyped about 9 years ago. As long as 3D is an option I consider that a success and the current era of 3D, I think we can all agree is the best ever era of 3D and we still don't know when or if it will end.

So let's see, you can still see 3D in theaters, you can still buy 3D hardware for home, like projectors and Blu ray players and you can still pick up 3D content. Yes, it's a little harder now, but you can if you know how.

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post #10 of 34 Old 01-06-2020, 02:00 PM - Thread Starter
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All this talk about failing and yet 3D is still in theaters. There's still a pulse folks. Wait and see... that's for investors. If you like 3D, get it, enjoy it, don't follow the masses and what they decide to make your own decisions. I think this decade and current era of 3D has been far more successful than you might imagine. Think of all the classic era 3D titles that have been resurrected onto Blu ray 3D. That's never happened before. Avatar 2 will kick off the new decade and is rumored to top Avenger's Endgame money. And while I'm on the subject of Avatar, Endgame managed to break Avatar's record, but keep in mind Avatar managed to set its goal during the recession, not to mention Endgame doesn't count for inflation either, if I'm reading the numbers right. And the success of Avatar was largely due to its unique use of 3D.

I think people who are counting 3D as a fail are considering that in order to be a success 3D has to take over the market. That was how it was hyped about 9 years ago. As long as 3D is an option I consider that a success and the current era of 3D, I think we can all agree is the best ever era of 3D and we still don't know when or if it will end.

So let's see, you can still see 3D in theaters, you can still buy 3D hardware for home, like projectors and Blu ray players and you can still pick up 3D content. Yes, it's a little harder now, but you can if you know how.
I noticed recently that sellers on ebay are offering the LG 65C6P 3D TV for $6,500. Even assuming that there is no burn-in that's a surprisingly high asking price for four-year-old technology. It tells me that there most certainly is a high demand among 3D enthusiasts for 3D TVs, and on a global basis their numbers are high enough for a savvy company to profitably make a limited production run perhaps in 2022.

I recently asked an LG rep to consider the possibility of implementing this kind of strategy at CES 2021, and they said they'd look into it, but I'm pessimistic about the chances of 3D returning in its current form. Still, it's impossible for me to believe that a form of entertainment that can be so immersive and fun could simply vanish. And so I strongly think there is hope for the future.

Just as 4k is now saturating the market, 8k will eventually reach a point where it's no longer capable of a big profit-point. (Never mind that 8k will probably be little better than 4k, if any indeed any better, at a proper seating distance. It's the new kid on the block, and developers are going to push it for all its worth. On a personal basis I'd much rather have an LG OLED 4k TV than a Samsung 8k QLED piece of junk.) When offering 8k is no longer a viable selling strategy, something has to replace it. I can't imagine that there will be 16k; 8k is ridiculous enough. Nor will any type of audio create mass sales. That points the needle in only one direction--glasses-free 8k 3D, a technology that has enormous sales potential. As I've said before, when it's introduced perhaps ten years from now it will require too much information for disc storage to carry it, and streaming is unreliable, so I see DVR download renting or buying as the only option.
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post #11 of 34 Old 01-06-2020, 03:32 PM
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I must say, 3D on my Optoma 4K 51ALV is very 4K looking. It's the best I've seen yet, and not sure 4K3D would give me a better image. And that's a 160" screen 15 feet away. We watched Passengers in 4K and Passengers in HD3D, and were clearly wowed by the 3D image and not so much the 2D 4K image.
Interesting that you say it looks very 4K looking. I have the Fengmi 4K cinema projector (.47 DLP chip) and recently tested Alita on it in FULLHD 3D (frame packed MVC--looks like full SBS in 2D) and @ 1080P/24 it just looked okay, but not like the AMC Prime 3D and IMAX 3D i saw it on (both using 2 projector systems). Once I upscaled it to 2160p/24 via MadVR it looked almost identical to the UHD version (sans HDR) and very much on par with what I was seeing in Prime/IMAX 3D.

I wasn't sure how to explain what I was seeing since I did not think that I'd be able to see 2160P hit the screen during 3D but I'm not so sure now. Maybe it's just the 1080P for each eye, but if that was true I'd see the same thing @1080p /24. According to the EDID the projector does Frame packed at 1080p/24, Half-SBS at 720p/50, and half-OU at 720p/60.

What's weird is that 3D on it looks like garbage at anything other than 2160p/24. I can't seem to find anything that explains what happens when an XPR based chip (.66 or .47) handles each 3D format. I've heard that the 4K LG TV's can do 3840x1080p.

So what am I seeing? Is it 4K3D? @tomtastic @3DBob

UPDATE:

Here's some pics to show what I'm seeing (Note: pics aren't great and try not to note the color/brightness differences due to my camera, but do represent the differences overall; each look much better in person.)

1080P



Upscaled to 4K



4K



1080P 2x



Upscaled to 4K 2X



4K 2X



1080P 3D 2X



Upscaled to 4K in 3D 2X



1080P 3D w/glasses



Upscaled to 4K in 3D w/glasses

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post #12 of 34 Old 01-08-2020, 06:34 AM
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@Casey_Bryson : I'm confused about your upscaling to 4K 24fps, since there is no 4K 3D spec, so best we can do with bluray to projector is 720p 60fps or 1080p 24fps. I must be missing something here. I have seen upscaled SBS to 4k 24fps and it could be played through usb port on some 3D TVs, mine included, but for projectors that just doesn't work. I would like to here from @tomtastic as well.
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@Casey_Bryson : I'm confused about your upscaling to 4K 24fps, since there is no 4K 3D spec, so best we can do with bluray to projector is 720p 60fps or 1080p 24fps. I must be missing something here. I have seen upscaled SBS to 4k 24fps and it could be played through usb port on some 3D TVs, mine included, but for projectors that just doesn't work. I would like to here from @tomtastic as well.
I'm confused too, but the proof is in the pudding. Look at the differences between 1080p>upscaled to 4K> and 4K. The differences can be seen in 2D and 3D which shouldn't be the case, but here we are. 1080p looks less detailed and some portions look like a big blob by comparison. Changing the brightness, contrast, 4K scaling parameters...what have you--nothing changes the fact that the upscaled image looks significantly 4K like and it is happening in 3D as well---it's insane and unexpected.

The only thing I can think of to explain it is that MadVR is upscaling it to 4K then outputting it in 1080p (see the zoom 200% in MadVR info on some of my pics, 2X denotes lens on camera). I might be doing it wrong, and I'll check with the Doom/MadVR boards to see if they can explain it, but the result is astounding!---at least on my projector. I'd assume you would see similar results on yours since you have a .47 DLP chip on yours, but who knows. You have to invoke 3D manually on mine.

I would guess that it has something to do with .47 DLP XPR--being able to address 8.3 megapixels and the fact that MadVR can bypass the Windows OS 3D settings. I get a similar result (better than fullHD 3d 1080p) when I upscale HSBS to 2160p albeit at a reduced detail/sharpness due to the source content.

Again I'm just spitballing....There is such a dearth of 3D info on these .47 and .66 DLP chips so any info is appreciated.

P.S. My apologies @4kfan if this isn't on subject, but I love 3D and was hoping to draw the attention anyone who might explain or known someone who could explain what I'm seeing--better 3D is the goal after all. For whatever it's worth I think 3D will see a revival in 7-10 years when larger display (UST, microLED, or otherwise) at 8K is commonplace. In the mean time hopefully studios will still pump out content and it will remain in the public eye and available to enthusiasts like us.

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post #14 of 34 Old 01-08-2020, 12:28 PM
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Difficult to say, it's basically you have to be there to really judge the difference. I can't really say by the images. I believe on most 4K projectors, they just use 1080p output for 3D. Now Don's Sony pj has a built in upscaler and he says it looks very 4K-like. My guess is it's doing something like what MadVR does, using algorithms and scaling to help. If you just took the 1080p image and upscaled it to 4K it would likely look identical.

On 4K Lg screens, you can have 1080p resolution if that is what your output device uses. On my PS4 Pro I have it set to 4K output. For blu ray 3D content it doesn't look any different. Same with my KDlinks box. I have that one connected to my 65" E6, it's set to 1080p mostly, high as my projector will go. I can switch it to 2160p for the E6 but it just changes the resolution output to 1080p frame-packed anyway. But I wouldn't say the image looks 4K just because it's on a 4K screen. There needs to be native 4K content or maybe some upscaling/upconverting going on. But I'm sort of skeptical on how authentic the 4K upscaling is. It's probably an improvement over 1080p but likely not what the native 4K should be.

With 4K3D on LG screens. That's 3840x1080 like you said, but it's true 4K from the cameras, just outputting to a top/bottom half resolution file which the screen can handle natively. Now what your projector is outputting, can you check the signal output when it's in 3D? I would say it upscales it to 4K and outputs 4K resolution in 3D. Now if that's full resolution per eye, I don't know.

And as far as looking as good as theater. I think most theaters are still 2k resolution so to me my 1080p image on my projector looks about the same.

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@Casey_Bryson : What player are you using? And is this PC based?
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Originally Posted by tomtastic View Post
Difficult to say, it's basically you have to be there to really judge the difference. I can't really say by the images. I believe on most 4K projectors, they just use 1080p output for 3D. Now Don's Sony pj has a built in upscaler and he says it looks very 4K-like. My guess is it's doing something like what MadVR does, using algorithms and scaling to help. If you just took the 1080p image and upscaled it to 4K it would likely look identical.

On 4K Lg screens, you can have 1080p resolution if that is what your output device uses. On my PS4 Pro I have it set to 4K output. For blu ray 3D content it doesn't look any different. Same with my KDlinks box. I have that one connected to my 65" E6, it's set to 1080p mostly, high as my projector will go. I can switch it to 2160p for the E6 but it just changes the resolution output to 1080p frame-packed anyway. But I wouldn't say the image looks 4K just because it's on a 4K screen. There needs to be native 4K content or maybe some upscaling/upconverting going on. But I'm sort of skeptical on how authentic the 4K upscaling is. It's probably an improvement over 1080p but likely not what the native 4K should be.

With 4K3D on LG screens. That's 3840x1080 like you said, but it's true 4K from the cameras, just outputting to a top/bottom half resolution file which the screen can handle natively. Now what your projector is outputting, can you check the signal output when it's in 3D? I would say it upscales it to 4K and outputs 4K resolution in 3D. Now if that's full resolution per eye, I don't know.

And as far as looking as good as theater. I think most theaters are still 2k resolution so to me my 1080p image on my projector looks about the same.
Thanks for your reply Tom. Are you saying you can't see a difference between the three 2D images that I posted? I can try and take a screenshot in MadVR if that's the case. In person it's more night and day on my 120" screen, but I can even see the difference in those pics on my 24" monitor at 1080p. The difference is not as clear for some scenes of that movie (CG or not) but very noticeable on the opening scene and which is why I posted that one.

Is anyone else not seeing the difference in the 2D pics? They mirror the 3D, but easier to tell what's going on in 2D.
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post #17 of 34 Old 01-08-2020, 02:56 PM
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@Casey_Bryson : What player are you using? And is this PC based?
I'm using MPC-HC with LAV filters to split the audio and video and then using MadVR to upscale to 4K. It's a Windows 10 PC with an AMD 5700 XT graphics card. The files are MKV's are ripped straight from the Blu-Ray's using MakeMKV.
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post #18 of 34 Old 01-09-2020, 04:03 PM
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@tomtastic and @3DBob

I did a little more digging and found some more promising evidence. I checked the the video signal info on my Denon X4500h receiver and it shows 4K:24hz in and out at 4:2:2 and 12bit all while in 3D mode

In addition I took a look at how the processing time or "rendering" time for each format and it increased with each format as expected:

10ms for something 1080p 2D or HSBS
15ms 1080p 3d (fullhd3d frame packed)
20ms for 1080p 2d or HSBS to 3840x2160
30ms for 1080p 3d (fullHD3D frame packed) to 3840x2160!

The MadVR statics info screen (ctrl-J) also has a separate display for each eye so there is another visual indicator there was well.

So just to recap: It looks like the video processor (madVR) is rendering more information (a pattern that tracks and equates to around 1.5 times rendering time verus it's 2D version), the receiver thinks it's passing a 4K/24hz signal, and it looks like a 4K like image in each eye and on screen!

Pretty encouraging don't you think?

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post #19 of 34 Old 01-09-2020, 09:18 PM
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Cool, that's what I wanted to see. I can't really judge by images of your screen unless you can do actual screen grabs for comparisons.

30mS, for full hd 3D, on paper that sounds like a problem. Do you notice any lag in the video, with audio out of sync? 24fps each frame takes 4mS, 30mS would put it roughly 8.5 frames behind.

So your GPU is outputting a 4K signal. That's how I do it as well, but I use top/bottom half for 4K3D. It's interesting your pj is allowing 3D while in 4K mode. From most feedback we've seen, most only allow 3D at HD resolutions. 4K Lg screens allow 3D in t/b or Sbs up to 4K resolution. Wondering if it's a top/bottom signal maybe. I can't quite see what resolution your pj is seeing? Does it show as a 2D signal or 3D? Framepacking?

Can you see the raw signal, maybe turn off 3D and see it as a 2D image.

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post #20 of 34 Old 01-12-2020, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Casey_Bryson View Post
I'm using MPC-HC with LAV filters to split the audio and video and then using MadVR to upscale to 4K. It's a Windows 10 PC with an AMD 5700 XT graphics card. The files are MKV's are ripped straight from the Blu-Ray's using MakeMKV.
I'm impressed with the output using MadVR. I have some 3D SBS video from my Panasonic 3D1. It's 1080p SBS, but it lacks sharpness. I've tried upscaling it to 4K in Edius, but it still looks soft. So I found MPC-HC and MadVR, which loads inside it, based on you post. When I play the video through this, it looks great, but how do I get the output saved or upscaled??

Thanks for sharing...
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post #21 of 34 Old 01-12-2020, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by 3DBob View Post
I'm impressed with the output using MadVR. I have some 3D SBS video from my Panasonic 3D1. It's 1080p SBS, but it lacks sharpness. I've tried upscaling it to 4K in Edius, but it still looks soft. So I found MPC-HC and MadVR, which loads inside it, based on you post. When I play the video through this, it looks great, but how do I get the output saved or upscaled??

Thanks for sharing...
NP yeah MadVR is pretty killer...enough for me to stop using my Darbee for 1080p processing. I'm not sure on saving the output to a file, but upscaling just requires you edit the settings of MadVR. The simplest way is to add 2160p23 to your Display Modes under Devices and make sure it's the only display mode...no 1080p's if your original file is 1080p otherwise it will choose that mode and not upscale--it tries to match the file up to a display mode and if not upscale or downscale if necessary. There are ways to program it depending on content, but I only want to output at 2160p23 for performance and all my content is movies at 24p anyway.

If it's upscaling you can choose your preferred method under Scaling Algorithms and refine it pre-scaling via Processing or post-scaling via Upscaling Refinements under Scaling Algorithms.

I'm definitely on the beginner side of things but I've read all the suggestions and looked at all the different processing comparison shots out there. I use the guide by Onkyoman/Warner306 since it describes everything in detail and has pictures of the settings and why one should or shouldn't not choose a setting: http://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php?tid=259188

One thing that I've noticed is that some (like Asmodian) have stated in that past that MadVR can only do 1080p23 3D, but I'm not sure if that is accurate or if it has changed since the guide was created. Let me know what you get working on your end because everything I see says it can output 2160p 3D or at least process two 1080p SBS frames and output them at 2160p.

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post #22 of 34 Old 01-12-2020, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomtastic View Post
Cool, that's what I wanted to see. I can't really judge by images of your screen unless you can do actual screen grabs for comparisons.

30mS, for full hd 3D, on paper that sounds like a problem. Do you notice any lag in the video, with audio out of sync? 24fps each frame takes 4mS, 30mS would put it roughly 8.5 frames behind.

So your GPU is outputting a 4K signal. That's how I do it as well, but I use top/bottom half for 4K3D. It's interesting your pj is allowing 3D while in 4K mode. From most feedback we've seen, most only allow 3D at HD resolutions. 4K Lg screens allow 3D in t/b or Sbs up to 4K resolution. Wondering if it's a top/bottom signal maybe. I can't quite see what resolution your pj is seeing? Does it show as a 2D signal or 3D? Framepacking?

Can you see the raw signal, maybe turn off 3D and see it as a 2D image.
I made some screen shots but it doesn't work for framepacked 3D; I get an error. I did manage to grab some screen shots of the Left eye 2D since what you see in 2D also mirrors what you see in 3D from a resolution stand point.

As far as dropped frames I've tried to find a decent post or link to explain or show the thought process behind it but I believe that as long as your rendering times are under the Vsync and frame times of 41.76ms for 24p that you won't drop frames and everything will be in sync. I've never noticed an issue since my times are well under 41ms. There are a lot of decent scaling algorithms and settings that will keep you below that number any decent video card.

Now for the pics/screen shots:

FULLHD3D SBS



1080p 2D (left eye) Screenshot



1080P 2D (left eye) Screenshot 200% zoom



1080p 2D (left eye) to 2160p Screenshot



2160p SDR screenshot

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post #23 of 34 Old 01-12-2020, 09:00 PM
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Yeah, I can see a difference in those shots. Almost think the upscale looks better than the 2160p, was that from the 4K disc, in the last shot? The 1080p upscaled looks the best. I was wondering, maybe it's a half resolution signal? I can't see how it could do full 2160p per eye but if it's SbS 2160p that's alright. Have to see if MadVR will work on my Mac Pro.

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post #24 of 34 Old 01-12-2020, 09:11 PM
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All this talk about failing and yet 3D is still in theaters.
For 2018, the latest year for which data is available:
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post #25 of 34 Old 01-12-2020, 09:24 PM
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Yeah, I read an article on that already. I bet 2019 did pretty well with Endgame will be interesting to hear the results of this year. I think if 3D can manage 20percent of tickets sales that's OK and still worth the investment.

Also, is it all 2D movies vs. all 3D movies, or just 2D movies with a 3D release? If it's global 2D vs Global 3D, fewer 3D titles would make the difference as well as fewer 3D showings. The only fair analysis would be 2D with 3D results, not certain that is what this graph shows. A drop in 3D releases would account for 20 percent.

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post #26 of 34 Old 03-11-2020, 06:13 AM
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I think 3D will come back when there is a new marketing gimmick to sell tv's.

Let's face it the latest gimmick of 8K is a diminishing one. It's lost on anything at normal viewing distances or TV sizes. Think of phones, 1440p vs 1080p on what is basically the same size screens at the same distance and no one really notices. I mean Apple got by with sub 720p resolutions calling it "Retina" for how many years while other phones had 1920x1080 for years! I honestly think 8k is lost on anything smaller than 85 inches in a normal sized home without a dedicated theater room.

HDR which was the las "gimmick" before 8k seems to be pretty much finalized except for the whole HDR10+ vs Dolby Vision so I think that's done.

Oled seems to be slowing down as these new panel technologies are emerging.

If you figure manufacturers try something new almost every year and with these new panel technologies and 8k being the next thing I figure 3D might be in again in 3-4 years. (unless something new they can market comes along)

I don't even think HDMI has enough bandwidth for say 4k 3D HDR (correct me if I'm wrong) as I think that would be the next step for 3D. Glasses free 3D probably wouldn't be a thing because of off angle viewing.


I just hope that whenever it does come back I won't have to purchase all my 3D movies again lol.
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post #27 of 34 Old 03-12-2020, 03:20 AM
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I don't even think HDMI has enough bandwidth for say 4k 3D HDR (correct me if I'm wrong) as I think that would be the next step for 3D. Glasses free 3D probably wouldn't be a thing because of off angle viewing.


I just hope that whenever it does come back I won't have to purchase all my 3D movies again lol.
Well, I think it's in the HDMI 2.2 update, it can handle it, if it can handle 8K 60fps it should handle up to 4K3D 120 which would be roughly equal the data of 8K (twice the resolution of 4K and twice the frame rate).

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post #28 of 34 Old 03-12-2020, 06:46 AM
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Well, I think it's in the HDMI 2.2 update, it can handle it, if it can handle 8K 60fps it should handle up to 4K3D 120 which would be roughly equal the data of 8K (twice the resolution of 4K and twice the frame rate).
Resolution and number of pixels aren't the same. An 8K screen is twice as wide as a 4K screen and therefore twice the resolution, but total pixels (or data that needs to be generated for an 8K image) is 4 times the megapixels of a 4K image. And a 4K image generates 4 times the data of a 2K image, though the 2K image is only twice the resolution of the 4K image. I know it's counterintuitive, but resolution has to do with width and length of pixels. Here is a 2K pixel ▄ Here is a 4K UHD pixel :: covering the same area as the one HD pixel. It takes 4 pixels to cover the same image area as 1 HD pixel. But in any direction, the resolution is twice the pixels.

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post #29 of 34 Old 03-12-2020, 10:47 PM
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Resolution and number of pixels aren't the same. An 8K screen is twice as wide as a 4K screen and therefore twice the resolution, but total pixels (or data that needs to be generated for an 8K image) is 4 times the megapixels of a 4K image. And a 4K image generates 4 times the data of a 2K image, though the 2K image is only twice the resolution of the 4K image. I know it's counterintuitive, but resolution has to do with width and length of pixels. Here is a 2K pixel ▄ Here is a 4K UHD pixel :: covering the same area as the one HD pixel. It takes 4 pixels to cover the same image area as 1 HD pixel. But in any direction, the resolution is twice the pixels.
I was referring to the data throughput which is roughly the same (4K3D 120 and 8K 2D 60). I'm not sure what you mean by megapixels, we don't measure video resolution in megapixels, that's for still photography. You can equate them out by measuring the resolution but we don't.

Actually, looking it up it's within the HDMI 2.1 spec, which allows for 4K 120 fps and 8K 120fps with max of 10K 120fps. So short answer is yes, 4K3D HDR would be possible with HDMI 2.1. There's plenty of bandwidth but 4k3D 120 might be a squeeze because it needs 25.82 gbps for 120fps in 2D, double that for 3D and it's past the 48gb limit of HDMI 2.1, but with minimal compression you could get it below that.

8K3D, no, not possible at any frame rate. Beyond the resolution and throughput specs.

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post #30 of 34 Old 03-12-2020, 10:56 PM
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If we had more directors like Ang Lee willing to film with 3D in mind, then we could have a come back.


GEMINI MAN is the brightest and sharpest 3Der out there.

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