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-   -   Official Nakamichi Shockwafe 9.2 and 7.2 dts:x dual subwoofers soundbars thread (https://www.avsforum.com/forum/195-soundbars/2917940-official-nakamichi-shockwafe-9-2-7-2-dts-x-dual-subwoofers-soundbars-thread.html)

DaveMatthewsLover 09-08-2017 03:14 AM

Official Nakamichi Shockwafe 9.2 and 7.2 dts:x dual subwoofers soundbars thread
 
The 9.2 sound bar caught my eye when it was announced during CES 2017, together with the Sony htst5000.

Currently for pre-order, with another 7.2 model available.
Nakamichi Shockwafe Ultra 9.2 DTSX: www.nakamichi-usa.com/shockwafe-ultra-preorder
Nakamichi Shockwafe Elite 7.2 DTSX: www.nakamichi-usa.com/shockwafe-elite-preorder

I have pre-ordered the 9.2 and it is expected to be delivered in October. Will be using it with my new 65” LG 4K OLED in my 24x24 living room.

I will post opinions on it when I receive it

epicoled 09-24-2017 02:21 PM

Nakamichi 9.2 soundbar
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveMatthewsLover (Post 54763972)
The 9.2 sound bar caught my eye when it was announced during CES 2017, together with the Sony htst5000.

Currently for pre-order, with another 7.2 model available.
Nakamichi Shockwafe Ultra 9.2 DTSX: www.nakamichi-usa.com/shockwafe-ultra-preorder
Nakamichi Shockwafe Elite 7.2 DTSX: www.nakamichi-usa.com/shockwafe-elite-preorder

I have pre-ordered the 9.2 and it is expected to be delivered in October. Will be using it with my new 65” LG 4K OLED in my 24x24 living room.

I will post opinions on it when I receive it



When will you receiving your soundbar? Did Nakamichi send you any additional information you can share? Thx

taichi4 09-24-2017 02:47 PM

DaveMatthewsLover: Do you know if the soundbar in the Shockwave 9.2 has been modified from the 45 inch sized soundbar used in the 7.1 Pro, or is it the same?

DaveFi 09-24-2017 04:12 PM

I sent Nakamichi a message yesterday asking them to clarify a few things, especially how the satellites are wired to the subs and if the deposit is refundable, shipping costs, etc.

It would also be nice to know if you can order the 7.2 with the option to add 2 more speakers later on.

DaveMatthewsLover 09-25-2017 04:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by epicoled (Post 54852418)
When will you receiving your soundbar? Did Nakamichi send you any additional information you can share? Thx

I will be receiving it sometime in October. Pretty fast for a preorder in my opinion because the Creative Sonic Carrier will only be shipped in December haha

Nakamichi actually shared a few of their behind-the-scenes pictures of the development and manufacturing of their 7.2 and 9.2 - stuff that I've never seen before! Quite a unique preorder experience I must say. I personally found it very engaging and I don't think there's any other brand that does something quite like this

Quote:

Originally Posted by taichi4 (Post 54852528)
DaveMatthewsLover: Do you know if the soundbar in the Shockwave 9.2 has been modified from the 45 inch sized soundbar used in the 7.1 Pro, or is it the same?

I did ask Nakamichi this question before. They said that even though the shape and size of the 9.2 soundbar are identical to the 7.1 Pro, they have upgraded the speaker drivers inside it. I have never listened to the 7.1 Pro though

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveFi (Post 54852890)
I sent Nakamichi a message yesterday asking them to clarify a few things, especially how the satellites are wired to the subs and if the deposit is refundable, shipping costs, etc.

It would also be nice to know if you can order the 7.2 with the option to add 2 more speakers later on.

They told me before that the deposit is refundable. Also, the shipping is already included in the price unlike the Creative. I know that 2 satellites will be connected to each sub. Did Nakamichi reply you? They responded to me pretty fast on both the times I asked them questions.

taichi4 09-25-2017 08:08 AM

That's good news about the bar itself, with regard to upgraded drivers. A review of the 7.1 Pro that I read generally liked it but thought that the highs were a bit edgy. It appears that the new Nakamichi listens to criticism, and they do respond quickly in terms of customer queries.

Adamg (Ret-Navy) 09-25-2017 09:08 AM

Read all the available specs and features in the provided links. Noticed Dolby ATMOS is absent. Is this an oversight or is the unit only DTS X compatible?

One would assume if it is DTS X capable it is also Dolby ATMOS capable as well. But they do not mention ATMOS anywhere in the Sales Documentation. Just curious really.

taichi4 09-25-2017 10:01 AM

I don't believe that it has an Atmos decoder. I've been trying to find any references to whether DTS X can decode Atmos, or whether Blu-ray players can do the conversion, but unfortunately exhausted my search engine and myself without result.

I should point out that except for the slightly upward firing, side firing tweeters in the bar itself, that height is being handled through Virtual X.

On a side note, DTS X is much more tolerant of speaker placement than Atmos, which requires speakers to be placed in specific locations.

Another interesting fact that argues for the widespread adoption of DTS X (besides speaker placement) is that it is easier for movie studio engineers to mix with DTS X than Atmos, does not require a license fee as DTS X is open source, and has other acoustical advantages as well.

Ellebob 09-25-2017 11:51 AM

The player will not be able to deocde Atmos/DTS:X data and put it into a matrixed 7.1 channel PCM format because I don't think any matrixed format exists for height data like it did for the original Dolby Surround/Prologic which came from a matrixed stereo source. If the sound bar can decode Dolby TrueHD it might be able to do Atmos and hopefully just doesn't have the licensing and certifications complete yet. If it can't decode Dolby TrueHD then Atmos is out of the question.

DaveMatthewsLover 09-25-2017 11:52 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by taichi4 (Post 54856338)
I don't believe that it has an Atmos decoder. I've been trying to find any references to whether DTS X can decode Atmos, or whether Blu-ray players can do the conversion, but unfortunately exhausted my search engine and myself without result.

I should point out that except for the slightly upward firing, side firing tweeters in the bar itself, that height is being handled through Virtual X.

On a side note, DTS X is much more tolerant of speaker placement than Atmos, which requires speakers to be placed in specific locations.

Another interesting fact that argues for the widespread adoption of DTS X (besides speaker placement) is that it is easier for movie studio engineers to mix with DTS X than Atmos, does not require a license fee as DTS X is open source, and has other acoustical advantages as well.

You are right. A local bestbuy sales rep once told me that Dolby requires a system to have upfiring speakers for it to qualify to decode Atmos. I did some research on the available systems in the market and it seems to hold true - all the Atmos sound bars around do indeed have upfiring speakers.

Also, my personal opinion is that while people are paying so much attention to Atmos, upfiring speakers, etc. many have overlooked the impressive surround sound of the Nakamichi 9.2. Excluding the 2 subwoofers, there will be 16 speaker drivers around you.

I found a diagram of their surround sound coverage on their facebook page.

DaveMatthewsLover 09-26-2017 12:10 AM

7 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by epicoled (Post 54852418)
When will you receiving your soundbar? Did Nakamichi send you any additional information you can share? Thx

I decided to share some of the images that Nakamichi sent their preorder customers including me, on their 7.2 and 9.2 development over here. Those subwoofers are huge!

NorthJersey 09-26-2017 08:15 AM

ok so if this doesn't decode Atmos soundtracks, how will it handle if we play an Atmos soundtrack (from UHD player or streaming h/w) ?

taichi4 09-26-2017 09:26 AM

I'm still waiting for a response from Nakamichi regarding my question about Atmos source material. With regards to the soundbar, it should reproduce DTS X height effects utilizing DTS Virtual X. Unlike the Yamaha YAS 207, the Soundbar does have a decoder to interpret the height information, and then reproduce it using Virtual X. This will be interesting to hear, as in this case you will have a good number of physical speakers around the room as a basis for the Virtual X effect.

I did find out that all of the drivers on the Ultra 9.2 Soundbar are new and upgraded over the 7.1 Pro, which is good news.

Regarding Atmos, it's not just that it requires either ceiling or ceiling reflecting speakers, but it also appears to require fairly specific placement horizontally. DTS X can work with many different combinations of speakers.

The reason I speculated about whether the output of Blu-ray players had an effect on how these various soundbars handle source material, is based on the long discussion on the Samsung 950 thread, as that sound bar decodes Atmos but not DTS. It emerged that a number of players could convert the Atmos encoded discs into a form that the 950 could handle. It may be that this is converted to 5.1, but as the Samsung does have an Atmos decoder, and does also virtualize height from 5.1 sources, I was wondering about something similar with the Nakamichi.

I think with a number of these devices you have to simply try them, and not argue a priori what effects a particular device can and cannot do. I go back to my old TV with its simple surround simulation mode. I'm sure there is no decoder present, but with some audio sources I can hear effects far to the right and left of the TV, and sometimes quite a bit to the sides. Sometimes the effect is so dramatic that I look to see if something is actually there.

Even with the lowly YAS 207, I'm willing to bet some discs sound more convincing than others. One of the reviews I read tested the movie Spectre and also Inferno, and these apparently produced pretty pleasing atmospheric effects that were consistent with the film.

taichi4 09-27-2017 09:56 AM

A few more thoughts about the whole subject of immersive audio, various technologies used to reproduce it, and the need to keep an ope, experimentative mind.

It's been my inderstanding that there is height information even in material not encoded in Atmos, DTS X, or Auro 3D. When microphones pick up sound, there is a lt of information that gets recorded, including complex reflections, and variations in amplitide and frequency. Again, from my understanding a lot of this information is preserved even in stereo, 5,1, etc. So I found this interesting in an article about Dolby Pro Logic IIz:

"...Most surround sound solutions use digital signal processing (DSP) to artificially model listening environments. Expanding on proven Dolby Pro Logic IIx technology, Dolby Pro Logic IIz identifies and decodes spatial cues that occur naturally in all content—stereo and 5.1 broadcast, music CDs, DVDs, 5.1- and 7.1-channel Blu-ray Discs™, and video games. It then processes ambient sound and certain amorphous effects such as rain or wind and directs them to the front height speakers...."

https://www.dolby.com/us/en

epicoled 09-28-2017 08:26 PM

Just found it on Bestbuy.com as coming soon. Seriously thinking about pre-ordering it.
It is $100 cheaper and comes with a 2 year warranty
https://www.bestbuy.com/site/nakamic...?skuId=6096116
https://www.nakamichi-usa.com/shockwafe-ultra-preorder/

tsteph12 09-29-2017 04:29 AM

I ordered the 9.2 yesterday. Preorder for the 7.2 is already closed and was informed the 9.2 will end 10/20. Estimated shipping for the 7.2 is mid October and the 9.2 some point in November. Am still a bit on the fence with this one not being able to experience it in person, but still have time should I change mind given deposit is refundable.

epicoled 09-29-2017 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tsteph12 (Post 54876830)
I ordered the 9.2 yesterday. Preorder for the 7.2 is already closed and was informed the 9.2 will end 10/20. Estimated shipping for the 7.2 is mid October and the 9.2 some point in November. Am still a bit on the fence with this one not being able to experience it in person, but still have time should I change mind given deposit is refundable.

7.2 has no savings vs Bestbuy.com
I just ordered the 9.2. Going to move my Nakamichi 7.1, which I am very happy with to the bedroom and put the 9.2 in the living room. Seems like quite a bit of upgrades besides adding 9.2, DTS:X, two subwoofers and 4 surround speakers.

Upgrades that I have noticed from 7.1:
HDCP 2.2
Display on soundbar
Better rear speakers (the current ones are quite small and only has one driver)
New remote (the old one is not good, you have to be right in the middle of the soundbar IR sensor)
Extra HDMI input
Bluetooth aptX
104dB to 110dB

taichi4 10-02-2017 09:23 AM

I've sent a number of emails to Nakamichi, and the most recent clarifies something. I'm still waiting for a further response.

The Nakamichi does not have Virtual X, but something that is similar to it called Neural X embedded in the Soundbar. It will create height effects, but not quite as precisely as Virtual X. This obviously raises some further questions for me, particularly about the nature of decoding used in the soundbar, which I hope to get answers to in a day or so.

Nevertheless, Nakamichi must be pretty confident in their Soundbar, as they will be demoing it at the Bellagio at CES 2018, alongside the Creative Sonic Carrier and the Sony Atmos HT 5000. Apparently their company has moved away from more massmarketed devices, to more advanced ones.

All soundbars make compromises of one sort or the other. The strong suit of the Nakamichi is the inclusion of a second sub, and capable physical speakers around the room to provide true surround. The Sonic Carrier and the Sony have upfiring speakers, but neither has true surround speakers, and therefore can't match the sheer number of speakers physically employed around the room. Obviously the Sony will perform better when the supposed option for rear speakers comes to pass.

DaveFi 10-02-2017 04:09 PM

Nakamichi hasn't responded to my email at all.

I don't plan on moving until sometime in Dec/Jan and would like to put a pre-order in on condition that they hold it for me until then. Of course there's no way to know unless they actually respond...

taichi4 10-02-2017 06:37 PM

Did you use the email form on their website? This worked much better for me than using a contact email address for them. You just fill in your information there and post the message from the webpage.

DaveFi 10-02-2017 09:49 PM

I did use the email form.

I just sent them a message through Facebook Messenger and they responded immediately. They're going to hold the soundbar for me until I move into my new place, which is very nice of them.

Micarina 10-18-2017 03:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taichi4 (Post 54867070)
A few more thoughts about the whole subject of immersive audio, various technologies used to reproduce it, and the need to keep an ope, experimentative mind.

It's been my inderstanding that there is height information even in material not encoded in Atmos, DTS X, or Auro 3D. When microphones pick up sound, there is a lt of information that gets recorded, including complex reflections, and variations in amplitide and frequency. Again, from my understanding a lot of this information is preserved even in stereo, 5,1, etc. So I found this interesting in an article about Dolby Pro Logic IIz:

"...Most surround sound solutions use digital signal processing (DSP) to artificially model listening environments. Expanding on proven Dolby Pro Logic IIx technology, Dolby Pro Logic IIz [I]identifies and decodes spatial cues that occur naturally in all content—stereo and 5.1 broadcast, music CDs, DVDs, 5.1- and 7.1-channel Blu-ray Discs™, and video games. It then processes ambient sound and certain amorphous effects such as rain or wind and directs them to the front height speakers...."

ya agree with that. Typically the height information is simulated via front speakers. Of course with the benefit of discrete height speakers, the height element will be more prominent and precise.

Micarina 10-18-2017 03:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taichi4 (Post 54861456)
I'm still waiting for a response from Nakamichi regarding my question about Atmos source material. With regards to the soundbar, it should reproduce DTS X height effects utilizing DTS Virtual X. Unlike the Yamaha YAS 207, the Soundbar does have a decoder to interpret the height information, and then reproduce it using Virtual X. This will be interesting to hear, as in this case you will have a good number of physical speakers around the room as a basis for the Virtual X effect.

I did find out that all of the drivers on the Ultra 9.2 Soundbar are new and upgraded over the 7.1 Pro, which is good news.

Regarding Atmos, it's not just that it requires either ceiling or ceiling reflecting speakers, but it also appears to require fairly specific placement horizontally. DTS X can work with many different combinations of speakers.

The reason I speculated about whether the output of Blu-ray players had an effect on how these various soundbars handle source material, is based on the long discussion on the Samsung 950 thread, as that sound bar decodes Atmos but not DTS. It emerged that a number of players could convert the Atmos encoded discs into a form that the 950 could handle. It may be that this is converted to 5.1, but as the Samsung does have an Atmos decoder, and does also virtualize height from 5.1 sources, I was wondering about something similar with the Nakamichi.

I think with a number of these devices you have to simply try them, and not argue a priori what effects a particular device can and cannot do. I go back to my old TV with its simple surround simulation mode. I'm sure there is no decoder present, but with some audio sources I can hear effects far to the right and left of the TV, and sometimes quite a bit to the sides. Sometimes the effect is so dramatic that I look to see if something is actually there.

Even with the lowly YAS 207, I'm willing to bet some discs sound more convincing than others. One of the reviews I read tested the movie Spectre and also Inferno, and these apparently produced pretty pleasing atmospheric effects that were consistent with the film.

Based on my recent research, I have couple of observations:

DTSX doesn't require height speakers while dolby Atmos has strict requirement on the speaker placement, including at least a pair of height speaker in order to work properly. DTSX can have some form of virtualisation via front speakers, even without virtual X technology in place.

if the bluray players can output both dolby Atmos and dtsX altogether, the soundbar will be benefit from it by decoding the stream. Otherwise, the soundbar will utilise either built-in dolby surround or dts neural X (comes with dtsX) to upmix the stream to Atmos/dtsX. However, it is not possible to remix/upmix dolby Atmos content to DTSX content via neural X upmixer and vice versa. I noticed there is someone mentioning about Nakamichi comes with Neural X so I guess this is pretty much the case.

I am still looking around to find out whats the best deal for my home entertainment system. Maybe I should give the Ultra 9.2 a go since the reviews on previous nakamichi sound bar were pretty good.

NorthJersey 10-18-2017 10:58 AM

sounds tempting but the majority of UHD discs are coming with Atmos soundtracks and not DTS:X

so once I find out how the Ultra 9.2 will handle when Atmos is thrown at it, that'll help me decide between this and the Sony HT-ST5000

MarioSH 10-18-2017 02:29 PM

The 7.2 Is In Stock and shipping now from Amazon and other stores. Anyone get theirs yet?

taichi4 10-18-2017 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Micarina (Post 54973190)
Based on my recent research, I have couple of observations:

DTSX doesn't require height speakers while dolby Atmos has strict requirement on the speaker placement, including at least a pair of height speaker in order to work properly. DTSX can have some form of virtualisation via front speakers, even without virtual X technology in place...

...I am still looking around to find out whats the best deal for my home entertainment system. Maybe I should give the Ultra 9.2 a go since the reviews on previous nakamichi sound bar were pretty good.

I think you put it pretty well, and make excellent points. Although it's all hypothetical until we hear it, the Nakamichi offers something that the Sony doesn't offer yet...rear speakers. And Atmos 7.1.2 isn't full 7.1.4. Moreover the potential for rear and sides, and the sonic presence of two subs is persuasive, Lastly, from my emails with Nakamichi, it looks like they're putting a lot of engineering into their drivers,

Micarina 10-18-2017 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taichi4 (Post 54978298)
I think you put it pretty well, and make excellent points. Although it's all hypothetical until we hear it, the Nakamichi offers something that the Sony doesn't offer yet...rear speakers. And Atmos 7.1.2 isn't full 7.1.4. Moreover the potential for rear and sides, and the sonic presence of two subs is persuasive, Lastly, from my emails with Nakamichi, it looks like they're putting a lot of engineering into their drivers,

Ya dual wireless subs and rear speakers are the key factors that get me interested into the new nakamichi solution. it is rare to see such configuration nowadays in the market. I don't mind to spare a bit more space for the setup if the system can get the sound right in my space. I am not exactly sure about the whole virtualisation thingy can do the job in my space with the high ceiling design. Discrete surround speakers do give me better assurance for better surround audio effects.

Hope to see more reviews on the nakamichi before the pre-order end. It looks really promising in audio perspective.

taichi4 10-19-2017 08:59 AM

The virualization is completely independent of your ceilings, It's using phase, delay, and amplitude variations to tell your brain and ears where the sound is coming from. No reflections involved.

DaveFi 10-19-2017 09:50 PM

I think this will be fine for me. After a certain point all the gimmicks don't matter.

The only thing that concerns me is that since I don't have a wall on one side of my room I'll have to keep the speakers together. The person I interacted with from
Nakamichi said that in that configuration it will still provide better imaging than the 7.2 setup.

Micarina 10-19-2017 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taichi4 (Post 54981250)
The virualization is completely independent of your ceilings, It's using phase, delay, and amplitude variations to tell your brain and ears where the sound is coming from. No reflections involved.

Oh yes you are right. I didn't mention it clearly I was actually referring to those who involved ceiling-bound Atmos soundbar, like the Sony HT-ST5000. But it is great to know that the virtualisation is independent of my ceiling.


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