Is 3D about dead? - Page 109 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3241 of 4238 Old 08-18-2017, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Supermans View Post
Let's hope both of our predictions about James Cameron ushering the revival of 3D at the theaters comes true. Because it won't be too far until that trickles back down to TV manufacturers that want to tie in with that glasses free 3d gold. Until then I am happy with my OLED65G6P and its perfect passive 3D that to me is more pleasing than the unnaturaly bright color pallete that comes with most UHD. Dolby Vision makes peoples faces look bright orange sometimes. If I want to see Oompa Loompa's, I can just put on Charlie and Chocalate factory for Pete's sake. I can't wait until we start seeing a more natural use of the color tones for UHD and DB material. And also I look forward to glasses free 3D Avatar 2 playing at home.
I agree Dolby Vision is utter trash, 10 bit panels I get, but HDR has so little benefit.
Removing 3D and adding HDR, IMO was two steps back one step forward.


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I just hope there's backward compatibility so I can still watch my current 3D BR library!
I don't see why not, stereoscopic vision hasn't really changed much over the decades, all that has changed were the display technologies.
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post #3242 of 4238 Old 08-18-2017, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Ryan1 View Post
And as long as you need to wear glasses to watch it, 3D will remain a niche. It reappears every decade or so, as a "new, must-have" feature to get the current year's product off the shelves, only to fade away again after a while. The marketing appears to have been fine, since it obviously made some into die-hard fans, but for the rest of the public, it's kind of a curiosity to be experienced only occasionally.
I'm always mystified by this comment and I wear glasses normally, needing to put on a pair of light weight passive 3D glasses has never bothered me, so I don't understand why it's an issue for folks, but obviously YMMV.
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post #3243 of 4238 Old 08-18-2017, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Ryan1 View Post
An "outsider's" perspective: While I enjoy 3D from time to time in the movie theater, at home, on a smaller screen, it just doesn't work as well.
The marketing appears to have been fine, since it obviously made some into die-hard fans, but for the rest of the public, it's kind of a curiosity to be experienced only occasionally.

What marketing? Unlike UHD, 3D popularity is in spite of zero marketing. If anything, for the past several years. the industry has been doing everything possible to hide it from consumers.
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post #3244 of 4238 Old 08-18-2017, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Exist_To_Resist View Post
I agree Dolby Vision is utter trash, 10 bit panels I get, but HDR has so little benefit.
Removing 3D and adding HDR, IMO was two steps back one step forward.

Thank you. Most people agree but on sites like this, one feels like a Luddite if one makes note of the format's numerous shortcomings.
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post #3245 of 4238 Old 08-18-2017, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Supermans View Post

3D still has an active community of buyers, which is still far greater than 4K UHD sales around the word but not in the US, however many in the movie industry have decided to actively kill it off due to its poor US sales. Furthermore TV salesman are coming up with many ways to convince people that the loss of 3D is not a downgrade on the 2017 sets and seem to perpetuate the lie that studios don't make 3D movies anymore and none are coming out in 2017. I had multiple Best Buy floor salesman tell me the same thing when I told them I was looking for a 3D HDTV. It is a sad state of affairs but it is the reality.

Like you, I do believe it will come back at some point. I have stated that my belief is that Avatar 2 or 3 will usher in the new era of 3D somehow as it did before. Perhaps when the UHD Ultra 4K push dies down and they need something new to attract them to buying expensive premium HDTV's. "Come and buy the new 8K Ultra 3DUHD glasses free 3D set!!" That is when it will come back

And if it's not as good as with glasses (and right now, it's very not!), I'll pass.


But the "poor US sales" aspect is a false narrative. 3D has sold quite well in the U.S. And, until availability was held back in order to force people to go for UHD discs, it's market share was higher than UHD discs (and it did so without zero hype, promotion, or marketing...all things that UHD discs have in spades.


When a UHD and 3D disc is equally available and priced, 3D outsells it. To reiterate an example, even now, weeks after its release, GHOST IN THE SHELL Amazon is listed as #264 for 3D. For UHD...#333. Of course, overall sales will favor UHD because...you can't go to Best Buy, Target, etc., and buy GitS. And, as someone else noted, even GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY 3D pre-orders are sold-out on-line already. (And that IS due to the 3D more than the UHD in the combo, especially since there will be a stand-alone UHD disc.)


A UHD title that gets an 11% market share is considered big news! But 3D selling 20% - 30% market share...not a word. When THE FORCE AWAKENS 3D disc opened to a 76% (!) market share, what you heard was..."Well, of course, because many people already bought the stand-alone 2D version months earlier so there wasn't a big TFA market by then...making it easier to get that high market share." That is certainly true...but if that collector's release was UHD instead of 3D, there would have been articles everywhere (especially here on AVS and similar sites) screaming about what a MAJOR accomplishment that was for UHD and is proof-positive that UHD is a big success. (Heck, they'd be putting out full-page ads in the Bible hyping that, if they could.)


Just saying, don't mistake the industry's concerted and purposeful attempt to kill a format as poor sales. The problem really is...3D sales take away from UHD sales. (I'm sure you've noticed that the vast majority who have the capability for both formats always opt for 3D over UHD if they have to choose one or the other. The industry knows this as well...that's why WONDER WOMAN 3D has no Atmos or even 7.1. That's why trade ads for retailers make no mention of the 3D release for the new TRANSFORMERS (which was actually SHOT with 3D IMAX cameras! Michael Bay said he wanted to keep 3D alive but I guess the industry didn't get that memo.). Some retailers are just not going to order or carry titles that they think don't exist. I know my local Target said that they had no idea that there was a KING ARTHUR or BOSS BABY. It's not that they want to lose sales, they just want those sales to be applied to what they are pushing now.


In the meantime, high-demand 3D titles will continue to sell out at retail outlets wherever they are carried while the UHD versions will be sitting there past Black Friday. (In case anyone was wondering why Best Buy has to have UHD "fire sales" every several weeks.)


As for overseas sales, we should also remember that some of those sales are from North Americans. If U.S. countries don't want the dollars, we have to give our bucks to foreign agencies.


Again, the point is that if 3D disc sales poorly, it should be noted that it is the industry creating that in hopes of boosting the struggling UHD format and not consumers. If the business gave equal-time to both formats, 3D would trounce UHD sales (as it often has, even with no marketing)...and that is not what they want.
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post #3246 of 4238 Old 08-18-2017, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by dianebrat View Post
I'm always mystified by this comment and I wear glasses normally, needing to put on a pair of light weight passive 3D glasses has never bothered me, so I don't understand why it's an issue for folks, but obviously YMMV.

Even better are the clip-on lenses! The issue is that people can't text, tweet, or wash dishes while wearing 3D glasses or lenses.
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post #3247 of 4238 Old 08-18-2017, 01:32 PM
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Or they can just include the 3D version with the 4K UHD like some of the Sony releases before. I thought that's where Sony was headed till they stopped. I just wish some of these marketing geniuses would see that when it comes to the 4K/3D combo discs or the rare 3D exclusives... things run out of stock and people are price gouging like crazy on ebay because there is so much demand for them. I'm glad to get both Kong:SI and Guardians of Galaxy 2 in this format. Hope Best Buy continues with this stuff... I mean... come one studios.. you have to know that these are selling out right?

I had to change gears myself as well.. I was getting the 4K UHD version of all new releases and not the 3D when it was released separately but now I'm just getting the 3D version for now because 4K UHD version will become cheaper since they will have surplus of them later down the road and have to clear them out. So.. buy 3D now... get 4K later. Of course if they release it as a combo, then it's no-brainer just to get that even if it is priced a little higher from day one.

But what frustrates me more is that they somehow price some 3D version higher than the 4K UHD version! WTF is up with that... if 3D is the inferior version just like the blu-ray version is, then why not price it accordingly? I haven't bought King Arthur 3D yet because they want $37 for it. I don't know why WB is so quick in trying to kill off 3D... higher prices... lack of Atmos track.
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post #3248 of 4238 Old 08-18-2017, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by film113 View Post
When a UHD and 3D disc is equally available and priced, 3D outsells it. To reiterate an example, even now, weeks after its release, GHOST IN THE SHELL Amazon is listed as #264 for 3D. For UHD...#333. Of course, overall sales will favor UHD because...you can't go to Best Buy, Target, etc., and buy GitS. And, as someone else noted, even GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY 3D pre-orders are sold-out on-line already. (And that IS due to the 3D more than the UHD in the combo, especially since there will be a stand-alone UHD disc.)
Ghost in the Shell has horrible 3D, I own both the UHD and the 3D version of the movie and I actually prefer the UHD.
The 3D rendering has terrible convergence issues.
But that is on the studio, they dropped the ball on the 3D conversion.
Kong Skull Island is also a 3D converted movie, but they did such a stellar job doing it that it looks like it was filmed in 3D.

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Originally Posted by film113 View Post
A UHD title that gets an 11% market share is considered big news! But 3D selling 20% - 30% market share...not a word. When THE FORCE AWAKENS 3D disc opened to a 76% (!) market share, what you heard was..."Well, of course, because many people already bought the stand-alone 2D version months earlier so there wasn't a big TFA market by then...making it easier to get that high market share." That is certainly true...but if that collector's release was UHD instead of 3D, there would have been articles everywhere (especially here on AVS and similar sites) screaming about what a MAJOR accomplishment that was for UHD and is proof-positive that UHD is a big success. (Heck, they'd be putting out full-page ads in the Bible hyping that, if they could.)
They need to push new technologies, they need more money.
The only reason I bought a UHD TV is because I wanted it as a monitor and needed 444 chroma for my PC, if it wasn't for that I would still own my 1080P Television.

OLED is a game changer.
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post #3249 of 4238 Old 08-18-2017, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Exist_To_Resist View Post
I agree Dolby Vision is utter trash, 10 bit panels I get, but HDR has so little benefit.
Removing 3D and adding HDR, IMO was two steps back one step forward.
...
Hm, I certainly see noticeable benefit from Dolby Vision and HDR10. Not earth-shattering, but the increased depth is noticeable.

I enjoy 3D in the theater occasionally, but even there it's more appropriate for certain content. While it works for something like Avatar or Despicable Me, I find it too weird for adult dramas like The Great Gatsby.

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Originally Posted by dianebrat View Post
I'm always mystified by this comment and I wear glasses normally, needing to put on a pair of light weight passive 3D glasses has never bothered me, so I don't understand why it's an issue for folks, but obviously YMMV.
I am not sure why it bugs me, but it does (I don't wear glasses). Even if I didn't mind dealing with glasses, things appear a little weird in 3d, at least with current technology.

Also, 3D works less well on a smaller screen, which is anything up to 100", IMO (I can see some benefit from UHD above 70" or so, depending on viewing distance, and such benefit becomes more noticeable as the screen size increases).
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post #3250 of 4238 Old 08-18-2017, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Ryan1 View Post
Hm, I certainly see noticeable benefit from Dolby Vision and HDR10. Not earth-shattering, but the increased depth is noticeable.

I enjoy 3D in the theater occasionally, but even there it's more appropriate for certain content. While it works for something like Avatar or Despicable Me, I find it too weird for adult dramas like The Great Gatsby.



I am not sure why it bugs me, but it does (I don't wear glasses). Even if I didn't mind dealing with glasses, things appear a little weird in 3d, at least with current technology.

Also, 3D works less well on a smaller screen, which is anything up to 100", IMO (I can see some benefit from UHD above 70" or so, depending on viewing distance, and such benefit becomes more noticeable as the screen size increases).
HDR10 yes, Dolby Vision no. I find that Dolby Vision has inaccurate colours and actually washes/crushes shadows too much.
HDR10 is subtle and it works, but not enough to warrant a whole new setup just to get it.

I have a 65" sitting at about 9 ft, 3D looks great.
As far as UHD resolution on larger screens, yes and no. Depends at your sitting distance.

OLED is a game changer.
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post #3251 of 4238 Old 08-18-2017, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Exist_To_Resist View Post

Ghost in the Shell has horrible 3D, I own both the UHD and the 3D version of the movie and I actually prefer the UHD.
The 3D rendering has terrible convergence issues.
But that is on the studio, they dropped the ball on the 3D conversion.
Kong Skull Island is also a 3D converted movie, but they did such a stellar job doing it that it looks like it was filmed in 3d.
They need to push new technologies, they need more money.
I don't begrudge the promotion of new technology. what I take issue with is the fact that they believe the new technology cannot succeed unless another technology is eliminated. That, to me, would say a lot about the new technology.

As for GitS, I have not yet seen either version so I can't make a judgement. But every online review and comparison I have read has given the edge to the 3D version over the UHD. I have not come across a single comment on any convergence issues. Not saying that you are wrong, only that it is the first I've heard of it. Too bad that AVS no longer reviews 3D movies. Would have been interesting to hear what Mr. Potts' take on it would have been.

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post #3252 of 4238 Old 08-18-2017, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Exist_To_Resist View Post
HDR10 yes, Dolby Vision no. I find that Dolby Vision has inaccurate colours and actually washes/crushes shadows too much.
HDR10 is subtle and it works, but not enough to warrant a whole new setup just to get it.
...
Yes, the effect of HDR is subtle, but it is noticeable. I actually find DV better than HDR10, but it may be a placebo effect, or a matter of original encoding.

Here is what Rtings says about Dolby Vision vs. HDR10:

"Bit depth describes the amount of graduations of colors in an image. SDR content is typically mastered at 8-bit which allows for 16.7 million colors, in the world of HDR this is changing. For more information, have a look at our article on gradients.

Dolby Vision content allows for up to 12 bit color; HDR10 is only 10 bit. It might not sound like a lot of difference, but you have to remember that the difference of 2 bits here is the difference between 1.07 billion colors and 68.7 billion. This means much smoother graduations between colors and no color banding in skies.

12 bit is simply better than 10. With that said, though, don't think bit depth makes content displayed more colorful. Its importance is when displaying different tones of the same color in a gradient. The higher the bit depth, the smoother it will be.

Winner: Dolby Vision. However, even if Dolby Vision is capable of 12 bit, today's TV panels are a maximum of 10 bit. You would be hard-pressed to see a difference in current TVs. HDR10 will probably be updated to 12 bit by the time a TV that supports it appears."


http://www.rtings.com/tv/learn/hdr10-vs-dolby-vision
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post #3253 of 4238 Old 08-18-2017, 06:24 PM
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3D works less well on a smaller screen, which is anything up to 100"

...up to 100"???

When I see comments like this, it's very obvious to me that the person making these kinds of comments do not watch very much (if any) 3D at home.

I have a lowly 65" 3D TV on which I view all my 3D movies at home. The 3D on it looks amazing!

Would I prefer a larger screen? Absolutely! Would the movie be more "immersive"? Of course!

However, the 3D on a 65" TV looks totally fine. Additionally, moving my chair up closer to the screen makes the TV look a lot bigger than 65".

So I call "BS" on this.

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post #3254 of 4238 Old 08-18-2017, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by King Richard View Post
...up to 100"???

When I see comments like this, it's very obvious to me that the person making these kind of comments do not watch very much (if any) 3D at home.

I have a lowly 65" 3D TV on which I view all my 3D movies at home. The 3D on it looks amazing!

Would I prefer a larger screen? Absolutely! Would the movie be more "immersive"? Of course!

However, the 3D on a 65" TV looks totally fine. Additionally, moving my chair up closer to the screen makes the TV look a lot bigger than 65".

So I call "BS" on this.

My projection display is 14-ft wide and I totally enjoy 3D and skip the UHD version altogether (1080p 3D is waaaaaay better than UHD 2D hands down). I recently watched Lightmond 3D disc - and I'd call it the mother of all 3D discs out there - it is shockingly immersive. The 3D Rarities disc I got has 3D video clips from the 1950s that are way more immersive than today's UHD material. I regularly import many Hong Kong movie 3D blurays that are incredibly good.
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post #3255 of 4238 Old 08-19-2017, 12:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King Richard View Post
...up to 100"???

When I see comments like this, it's very obvious to me that the person making these kind of comments do not watch very much (if any) 3D at home.

I have a lowly 65" 3D TV on which I view all my 3D movies at home. The 3D on it looks amazing!

Would I prefer a larger screen? Absolutely! Would the movie be more "immersive"? Of course!

However, the 3D on a 65" TV looks totally fine. Additionally, moving my chair up closer to the screen makes the TV look a lot bigger than 65".

So I call "BS" on this.
...
I am glad that you are enjoying your 3D experience and that moving your "chair up closer to the screen makes the TV look a lot bigger than 65"," however that works.

But for me, it doesn't look right. My (admittedly occasional) 3D viewing has been on a 65" and it feels smaller than it should be. It does not feel as immersive or pleasant to watch as a regular movie on the same size screen.

To each his own, but the market seems to have spoken....
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I am glad that you are enjoying your 3D experience and that moving your "chair up closer to the screen makes the TV look a lot bigger than 65"," however that works.

But for me, it doesn't look right. My (admittedly occasional) 3D viewing has been on a 65" and it feels smaller than it should be. It does not feel as immersive or pleasant to watch as a regular movie on the same size screen.

To each his own, but the market seems to have spoken....
The industry has spoken, not the market. But they're speaking now.
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Originally Posted by Exist_To_Resist View Post
HDR10 yes, Dolby Vision no. I find that Dolby Vision has inaccurate colours and actually washes/crushes shadows too much.
HDR10 is subtle and it works, but not enough to warrant a whole new setup just to get it.

I have a 65" sitting at about 9 ft, 3D looks great.
As far as UHD resolution on larger screens, yes and no. Depends at your sitting distance.
For UHD and 3D I sit four feet away from my 65" set. I enjoy that much better than the nine feet away I sit from my 82" 1080P TV.

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Originally Posted by film113 View Post
I don't begrudge the promotion of new technology. what I take issue with is the fact that they believe the new technology cannot succeed unless another technology is eliminated. That, to me, would say a lot about the new technology.

As for GitS, I have not yet seen either version so I can't make a judgement. But every online review and comparison I have read has given the edge to the 3D version over the UHD. I have not come across a single comment on any convergence issues. Not saying that you are wrong, only that it is the first I've heard of it. Too bad that AVS no longer reviews 3D movies. Would have been interesting to hear what Mr. Potts' take on it would have been.
Yes I think the 3D version is better. But that is because they used a 2K DCI for the UHD transfer. If they would have used a 4K DCI then I probably would have liked the UHD version better.

In the theater I saw it in 3D Imax. It looked really good in the theater.

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post #3259 of 4238 Old 08-19-2017, 10:46 PM
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AVS doesn't review 3d movies because the studios don't send 3d movies for review. They send the UHD version because obviously they want to promote it. But the few UHD combos that include the 3d version, it does get reviewed.
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post #3260 of 4238 Old 08-20-2017, 01:46 AM
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Originally Posted by film113 View Post
The industry has spoken, not the market. But they're speaking now.
"Walter Murch, hailed by legendary film writer Roger Ebert as “the most respected film editor and sound designer in modern cinema,” described 3D movies as “dark, small, stroby, headache inducing, alienating [and] expensive. The question is,” Murch asked in 2011, “how long will it take people to realize and get fed up?” Not long, apparently; the following graph shows that fewer people are opting for 3D when a 2D version of the same film is available. Benjamin Swinburne, an analyst at Morgan Stanley, expects that ratio to fall to a seven-year low in 2014."

http://cloud.highcharts.com/embed/ebigoq

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/n...3D-movies.html
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post #3261 of 4238 Old 08-20-2017, 07:36 AM
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The LG OLED65e6 solved “dark, small, stroby, headache inducing...

Lucky you if you have a e6 and if we get real lucky LG, or another electronics company) will recognize what it has and produced and manufacture new 3D models.

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post #3262 of 4238 Old 08-20-2017, 04:52 PM
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Yes I think the 3D version is better. But that is because they used a 2K DCI for the UHD transfer. If they would have used a 4K DCI then I probably would have liked the UHD version better.

In the theater I saw it in 3D Imax. It looked really good in the theater.

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I honestly have no idea how you can praise the GitS 3D rendering, it is utter trash.
When I saw it in theater it had major convergence issues and they even transferred those on to the 3D Blu Ray disc.
GitS is one of the worst 3D movies I own in my collection, there is no depth, just layers.
This is an instance where the actual UHD version of this movie is better than the 3D version, I use the term 3D very loosely in this case.

OLED is a game changer.
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post #3263 of 4238 Old 08-20-2017, 04:54 PM
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The LG OLED65e6 solved “dark, small, stroby, headache inducing...

Lucky you if you have a e6 and if we get real lucky LG, or another electronics company) will recognize what it has and produced and manufacture new 3D models.
Yup have the same TV, the 3D on it is superb, one of the best around.
King Richard likes this.

OLED is a game changer.
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post #3264 of 4238 Old 08-20-2017, 05:25 PM
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I think 3D should continue but there are not many interesting titles out there.
I have seen Avatar/ GI Joe/ Transformers/ StarTrek in 3D and a few more I can't remember. Transformers/ Avatar the most impressive 3D titles for me while the rest was mediocre.

Biggest fun spoiler are those tiny/flimsy 3D glasses made for kid heads but for an adult a pain on the nose...

Perhaps one day we have screens that can produce 3D without glasses? would be optimal!

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post #3265 of 4238 Old 08-20-2017, 05:28 PM
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I think 3D should continue but there are not many interesting titles out there.
I have seen Avatar/ GI Joe/ Transformers/ StarTrek in 3D and a few more I can't remember. Transformers/ Avatar the most impressive 3D titles for me while the rest was mediocre.

Biggest fun spoiler are those tiny/flimsy 3D glasses made for kid heads but for an adult a pain on the nose...

Perhaps one day we have screens that can produce 3D without glasses? would be optimal!
The Martian, Kubo, Pacific Rim, and Kong Skull Island has some of the best 3D IMO.

OLED is a game changer.
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post #3266 of 4238 Old 08-20-2017, 06:20 PM
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The Martian, Kubo, Pacific Rim, and Kong Skull Island has some of the best 3D IMO.
The Martian?
I have the 2-disc set here and watch the 2D version every now n then coz the 7.1 sound is impressive in NeuralX mode. However, I never watched the 3D disc coz I can't imagine what can there be worth watching in 3D, hmm? Perhaps I try it next time..

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post #3267 of 4238 Old 08-21-2017, 11:58 AM
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I honestly have no idea how you can praise the GitS 3D rendering, it is utter trash.
When I saw it in theater it had major convergence issues and they even transferred those on to the 3D Blu Ray disc.
GitS is one of the worst 3D movies I own in my collection, there is no depth, just layers.
This is an instance where the actual UHD version of this movie is better than the 3D version, I use the term 3D very loosely in this case.
I didn't see the convergence issues in the IMAX theater I saw it in. It was no more or no less than any other movie I've seen in 3D in the IMAX theater.

And at home I liked it better from the 3D BD on my DLP set and UHD TV than from the UHD BD in UHD on my UHD TV and in 1080P on my DLP set.

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post #3268 of 4238 Old 08-21-2017, 12:07 PM
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I didn't see the convergence issues in the IMAX theater I saw it in. It was no more or no less than any other movie I've seen in 3D in the IMAX theater.

And at home I liked it better from the 3D BD on my DLP set and UHD TV than from the UHD BD in UHD on my UHD TV and in 1080P on my DLP set.
Pay attention to the lights in some of the scenes.
They converge incorrectly, saw this both in theater and at home.
Also the 3D effect is just layers, out side of that there is a lack of depth to the movie.

OLED is a game changer.
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post #3269 of 4238 Old 08-21-2017, 01:17 PM
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Pay attention to the lights in some of the scenes.
They converge incorrectly, saw this both in theater and at home.
Also the 3D effect is just layers, out side of that there is a lack of depth to the movie.
That's what I see with the majority of 3D movies. It's very rare I actually see something that looks like it's coming out of the screen.

EDIT: I see Transformers: The Last Knight is the only real 3D release this year. That wasn't post converted to 3D.

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post #3270 of 4238 Old 08-21-2017, 01:30 PM
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That's what I see with the majority of 3D movies. It's very rare I actually see something that looks like it's coming out of the screen.

EDIT: I see Transformers: The Last Knight is the only real 3D release this year. That wasn't post converted to 3D.
Yeah, hence why majority of 3D is so terrible, except for Kong Skull Island, I thought it was filmed in 3D when I saw it.
They did a really exceptional job in post with the 3D.

OLED is a game changer.
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