Is 3D about dead? - Page 139 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4141 of 4178 Old 04-11-2019, 02:49 AM
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Originally Posted by brazen1 View Post
I like reading arguments why current 3D is a problem and not good. Yours for instance; to make a conscious decision in order to watch 3D. Really? Pressing play and putting the glasses on is too much of an effort? If you're doing anything more than that, consider your technique/setup. I think the real conscious decisions would include what you're going to watch and at what time.
There is more to 3D than pressing a button and putting glasses on...

1. IF you already have the 3D TV, the 3D Blu-ray player, and the 3D compatible receiver/soundbar, you need content.
2. You must buy 3D content, bee it on a disc, streaming or by subscribing to a 3D channel/package.
3. Get enough glasses for the family members.
4. If the glasses are active, charge the glasses.

All of this was too much for the general public. So, the 3D was axed. The rest is history.

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Spoiler!
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post #4142 of 4178 Old 04-11-2019, 05:26 AM
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Originally Posted by tomtastic View Post
It's a vicious circle. HD, 3D, 4K now they're rushing out 8K and there's not even content for it other than a few YT videos. ....................... Sometimes the vicious circle is good, 3D will be back around when the technology gets caught up and manufacturers run out of the same old thing, they'll need something new to sell you.
After 8K will be 10K...
HFR or VRR content outside games will be inevitable, in spite of Hollywood reluctance, because with so much spatial resolution (8K and more) the motion/temporal resolution will become paramount.
HDR panels with 12bit or more per pixel will be next.
Panels sizes will get bigger an bigger.
In desperation, even autostereoscopy can be thrown in...

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post #4143 of 4178 Old 04-13-2019, 08:30 AM
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I have my doubts because if people can't wear glasses to watch 3D, it will be even harder to get them to wear a headset. For movies, it's all about the theatrical run (though Netflix is changing the game a bit) where studios make their biggest take. At least in the theater, VR is really a home entertainment, so there's a problem there with getting hollywood to invest in the format. And they have to figure out a way to fit storytelling into a VR environment too and make it work. I think we're still a long ways from being able to do all that in VR.
I'd say 3D movies and VR are completely separate experiences which have their own pros/cons. A 3D movie is a more passive experience that benefits from a large TV/screen to view it whereas VR is a more interactive/immersive experience that really needs a computer/console to handle all the 3D graphics and sound processing. If you've tried watching a 3D Blu-Ray on a PSVR the smaller field of view & lower resolution means it's preferable to just watch it on a 3D TV/projector instead. The other issue is VR immersion can cause motion sickness even on fairly mild examples, so if you didn't like 3D glasses I'm pretty sure the potential motion sickness from VR headsets is much worse - and it's hard to know how bad you'd be impacted by it unless you try it out (symptoms can pop up pretty quickly, so if you're stuck in a 2 hour experience that's not very enjoyable). I'd say VR is better for games and storytelling in games over movies - these are better off on traditional 3D display technology.
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post #4144 of 4178 Old 04-13-2019, 01:39 PM
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I go over to my bass forum and there is a thread 'Is rock dead'. I come here and I find a thread 'Is 3d dead'. I have been hearing both formats are dead for the last 60 years and both are still alive and kicking.
It might be kicking, but not very high these days.
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post #4145 of 4178 Old 04-13-2019, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve P. View Post
When 3-D was really dead, back in the 90's, I and many other 3-D fans had a large library of field sequential content to watch at home. Years before 3-D TVs were available, we found a way. By contrast, even it its current state, we are better off now than we were then. If we got nothing but upcoming 3-D Film Archive titles, of which there are many, I'd be content.

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And there's plenty of View-Masters in the antique shops (and my theater)!
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post #4146 of 4178 Old 04-16-2019, 07:36 AM
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Related thread: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/308-c...if-so-why.html


I find the figures interesting but have absolutely little to no idea why there is such an apparent and ongoing interest for 3D within Asian communities.


Again, I'd suspect that these figures indicate the possibility that audiences don't mind large screen 3D in public theaters but are less excited to do that at home.

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post #4147 of 4178 Old 04-19-2019, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
4. If the glasses are active, charge the glasses.
This is why 3D died. No one wanted to buy very expensive active 3D glasses that needed to be charged and generally had issues with cross talk. But more than that, it was probably the "format" war as it inevitably created confusion and destroyed what chance 3D had of getting established in the home market. If only the industry had agreed on just passive 3D for home theater TV (and active for projectors) I think 3D could have survived, at least longer than it did.

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post #4148 of 4178 Old 04-19-2019, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by impetigo View Post
This is why 3D died. No one wanted to buy very expensive active 3D glasses that needed to be charged and generally had issues with cross talk. But more than that, it was probably the "format" war as it inevitably created confusion and destroyed what chance 3D had of getting established in the home market. If only the industry had agreed on just passive 3D for home theater TV (and active for projectors) I think 3D could have survived, at least longer than it did.

Just a couple problems with your theory... passive was and still is only half resolution and looks half as good as active. It was also the cheaper choice and folks got what they paid for. Then 3D was judged. I have never seen the cross talk you say is an issue with active. Quite the opposite. You're almost guaranteed cross talk with passive. And those very expensive active glasses that came packaged with each and every panel speak volumes about cheap passive throw away glasses. That said, we will be watching yet another 'Brand NEW' 3D release tonight despite how dead 3D is and has been since you declared it so many years ago... active fwiw.
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post #4149 of 4178 Old 04-19-2019, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by brazen1 View Post
Just a couple problems with your theory... passive was and still is only half resolution and looks half as good as active. It was also the cheaper choice and folks got what they paid for. Then 3D was judged. I have never seen the cross talk you say is an issue with active. Quite the opposite. You're almost guaranteed cross talk with passive. And those very expensive active glasses that came packaged with each and every panel speak volumes about cheap passive throw away glasses. That said, we will be watching yet another 'Brand NEW' 3D release tonight despite how dead 3D is and has been since you declared it so many years ago... active fwiw.
Passive 3D, on a 1080p set, has half the vertical resolution: 1920x540, which can affect picture quality but that also depends on the TV set. Passive 3D does not have problems with cross talk that many if not most active 3D TVs (or PJs) do. Not everyone will be sensitive to the effects though, and some active TVs/glasses have less of a problem with it than others. But it is a significant problem for many TVs/PJs and there are topics just about that. Active 3D also are subject to flickering effects due to the way that shutters work in active glasses, and active 3D darkens the image more than passive 3D, from what I've read. On top of that, passive glasses also are more comfortable to most because the physical glasses are lighter, they have larger lenses, don't need to be charged, and you can find great, cheap glasses online to fit your face the best.

The best 3D tech at this point though is probably passive 3D on a UHD set since you get 1920x1080 for each eye. I paid $2000 a few months ago to buy a used 65" Sony UHD TV that does exactly this, and the 3D is just the best. The trade off is that it's a 65" image versus my 110" PJ screen but for 3D I only watch on my TV.
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post #4150 of 4178 Old 04-22-2019, 09:15 AM
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Bickering removed. Discuss the topic and not each other.
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post #4151 of 4178 Old 04-22-2019, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by impetigo View Post
The best 3D tech at this point though is probably passive 3D on a UHD set since you get 1920x1080 for each eye.
The same can be said for active UHD displays as well. 1920 x 1080 isn't exclusive for passive only. Cnet says UHD on passive OLED is still half resolution but since there are so many more pixels on a 4k screen you don't notice. To this day you can pixel peep UHD OLED in 3D mode and see every other line of resolution is blanked out and black. Of course we don't pixel peep when actually watching something but just sayin'...

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post #4152 of 4178 Old 04-22-2019, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by brazen1 View Post
The same can be said for active UHD displays as well. 1920 x 1080 isn't exclusive for passive only. Cnet says UHD on passive OLED is still half resolution but since there are so many more pixels on a 4k screen you don't notice. To this day you can pixel peep UHD OLED in 3D mode and see every other line of resolution is blanked out and black. Of course we don't pixel peep when actually watching something but just sayin'...
That is interesting but personally I haven't noticed passive 3D on my UHD set to have any visible blank/black lines but maybe I'll pixel peep to see if it's noticeable up close. I will say that I watched a 3D movie (Tangled, which is actually better than I expected) over the weekend on the projector with active glasses and I found it to look great. Of course, I usually only watch animated 3D on the projector as live action movies are generally too dark for my Epson to perform to my satisfaction, but it was excellent, on par with passive 3D on my TV. And I'll admit that there were no flickering issues or cross talk that I noticed (although I have had issues with that in the past, more with the Epson glasses than the Value View glasses I purchased later).

Haven't watched a 3D movie on it since I stopped Solo after 5 minutes and switched to 2D over a year ago. Only problem is that it's hard (impossible) to find active RF/BT glasses that are kid size. For passive I have several different pairs of kid glasses that fit better and wish I could find some for my Epson as we all prefer the larger ("only" 110") screen.

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post #4153 of 4178 Old 04-22-2019, 02:31 PM
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I had a pair of sunglasses that liked to fall off my head when tilting down. My eye doctor had a heater for glasses and just bent them tight for me. Had the same problem with a pair of 3D glasses that were wearing. Not that I recommend it for everyone, I precisely held over a candle moving back and forth well above the flame until it juuuust started to get the plastic ear stem malleable and held it in place for a minute. Cured. Don't try to heat the middle between the lenses whatever you do. I also put heat shrink tubing over the stems to reinforce them so it doesn't happen again applying a gentle heating as before.
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post #4154 of 4178 Old 04-22-2019, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by brazen1 View Post
The same can be said for active UHD displays as well. 1920 x 1080 isn't exclusive for passive only. Cnet says UHD on passive OLED is still half resolution but since there are so many more pixels on a 4k screen you don't notice. To this day you can pixel peep UHD OLED in 3D mode and see every other line of resolution is blanked out and black. Of course we don't pixel peep when actually watching something but just sayin'...
4K Passive 3D TV's use every line of resolution. There is no "every other line of resolution is blanked out and black" as the image is split into alternating lines to display 2x 3840x1080 images for 3D use. Given that most 3D content available is 3D Blu-Ray there is no noticeable image quality loss from source material. If lines are seen this usually means the person is sitting too close to the TV meaning it is possible to see the black matrix used to avoid crosstalk (see DisplayMate).

See 4K TVs with passive 3D: Finally, a good use for all those pixels - quoting David Katzmaier: "When a 4K resolution TV uses passive 3D, however, the extra pixels play a much more obvious role. You still lose half the vertical resolution, but since there are so many more pixels, you can afford to lose it. 4K TVs (3,840x2,160-pixel resolution) with passive 3D, like the Toshiba L9300U, can still deliver greater than HD resolution in 3D, at 3,840x1,080 pixels per eye." Also: "That is, until 4K resolution TVs with passive 3D came along. I just finished reviewing my first one, Toshiba's 65L9300U, and it delivered the cleanest, most artifact-free 3D image of any TV I've had in the lab."
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post #4155 of 4178 Old 04-22-2019, 08:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes, it's true every line of resolution is used on a passive screen. The visible black lines are only visible when viewing lines of the opposite corresponding eye view with the glasses on, this is what's commonly misinterpreted as every other blank lines, but it just appears that way when viewing in 3D too close. On a 4K screen, in order to see these black lines, you would have to be about 3 or 4 feet away, which in most cases is too close because of crosstalk.

Active vs. passive, on LCD screens about equal in terms of crosstalk. LCD's are just more prone to crosstalk because it's a timing issue, pixel response rate is just not fast enough in high contrasting scenes. OLED is better, but I've noticed it too can show crosstalk in some demanding scenes. DLP is still the lowest crosstalk that I've seen, although not nearly as exciting PQ-wise.

The whole active vs. passive debate is already settled. Since Blu ray 3D never moved beyond HD resolution, UHD passive screens leveled the playing field and they are not half resolution like the 1080p sets were. Now, if they suddenly came out with a UHD active screen that supported full 4K resolution, then yes, UHD passive screens would then be yet again, half resolution. It doesn't seem like any full 4K 3D support is coming right now so it's not really an issue at this time. But since 8K screens are already on the horizon, they should be able to handle full 4K resolution on a 8K passive set. Of course that is all just wishful thinking right now since no new active or passive 3D TV's are being manufactured now. The best you can get is 4K 3D half resolution which all LG UHD passive screens support as well as a few active Samsung models.

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post #4156 of 4178 Old 04-23-2019, 02:13 AM
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Allow me to add my personal and ambivalent 3D viewing experiences over this Easter weekend. I'd say a non-3D aficionado would have find it troublesome:


JERUSALEM (IMAX 3D)
Bright images, real 3D combined with 3D CGI renderings of the Second Temple and vintage black & white stereo photographic images (yeah!).
The 3D effect was especially spectacular within the old, narrow streets of Jerusalem and the director carefully selected elements that would really make the most use of 3D.


THINK BIG (IMAX 3D)
My Oppo BDP-93 had repeatedly issues showing the 3D version, had to shut it off twice and restart the whole thing to be able to watch it in 3D. Nice but rather underwhelming, mostly focusing on school projects and - expectedly - skyscrapers in the distance were too far away to show up in "real" 3D. Really wished SHOUT!Factory would have instead released AIRCRAFT CARRIER in 3D on Blu-ray.


GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY
Yes, I'm very late to the party. Finally got around to watch it, but couldn't help but feel that the entire cinematography of the movie was too dark to begin with and nothing was wrong with my projector (watched JERUSALEM twice, at the beginning and the very end).


So out of three 3D viewings only one was really a delightful, pro-3D experience. I don't claim that this ratio is representative of what average consumers might have experienced during the golden days of 3D, but if it's remotely applicable I for one could understand why consumers rather stayed with traditional 2D...
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post #4157 of 4178 Old 04-23-2019, 03:22 AM
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Allow me to add my personal and ambivalent 3D viewing experiences over this Easter weekend. I'd say a non-3D aficionado would have find it troublesome:


JERUSALEM (IMAX 3D)
Bright images, real 3D combined with 3D CGI renderings of the Second Temple and vintage black & white stereo photographic images (yeah!).
The 3D effect was especially spectacular within the old, narrow streets of Jerusalem and the director carefully selected elements that would really make the most use of 3D.


THINK BIG (IMAX 3D)
My Oppo BDP-93 had repeatedly issues showing the 3D version, had to shut it off twice and restart the whole thing to be able to watch it in 3D. Nice but rather underwhelming, mostly focusing on school projects and - expectedly - skyscrapers in the distance were too far away to show up in "real" 3D. Really wished SHOUT!Factory would have instead released AIRCRAFT CARRIER in 3D on Blu-ray.


GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY
Yes, I'm very late to the party. Finally got around to watch it, but couldn't help but feel that the entire cinematography of the movie was too dark to begin with and nothing was wrong with my projector (watched JERUSALEM twice, at the beginning and the very end).


So out of three 3D viewings only one was really a delightful, pro-3D experience. I don't claim that this ratio is representative of what average consumers might have experienced during the golden days of 3D, but if it's remotely applicable I for one could understand why consumers rather stayed with traditional 2D...
I bought one of the last 3D capable TV's made late 2017.
It's a 4K UHD Panasonic EX780a 65" model, it uses active glasses.
I got a bewildered look on the salespersons face when I stated that I wanted to buy this TV because it was 3D capable.


He wanted to get rid of it off the showroom floor ASAP because it took up space for displaying OLED.....fine by me, it's original RRP on release was AUS$4500, I got it delivered for AUS $2800 and a Panasonic 4K Disc player chucked in.....happy days.....[He said I could get the 75" for the same price, but no Disc Player, I thought about it, but I didn't have the space ]


Anyway, it looked ok at first, but being at this game for a fair while, I noticed things weren't as good as they could be.....I have my own calibration gear.
It's pointless calibrating a NEW TV or PJ, they will drift horrendously very quickly.
I waited about two months [In retrospect that was still to soon] but once I calibrated it, WOW, what a difference.....it looked VERY close to the AUS $7k Panasonic OLED.


You might be thinking WTF has this got to do with 3D.


Well to get great 3D, the Grey scale of the TV has to be spot on......Believe me, hardly ANY TV, regardless of cost or technology used, is the Grey Scale Tracking even close. out of the box, and it drifts over time.



Grey Scale is the B&W portion of the picture that controls detail and fine texture, You calibrate the B&W portion first , Colour is placed on top of Grey Scale.


To cut a long story short, If your 3D capable TV isn't calibrated, at least for Grey Scale, then your 3D viewing experience will be far less than Stella.


I have 100+ 3D Blurays.
I bought and watched a few over the Easter weekend
.
Aquaman....Looks good in 3D but the acting is wooden and the script EXTREMELY Cliched, a Cookie Cutter Warner Bros / DC comic mess....Just like Batman V's Superman.


Mortal Engines 3D....This movie is a lot better than Aquaman IMHO, although it got worse reviews [Don't believe all movie reviews]...Acting is FAR less wooden / Script actually makes some sense....the 3D I would rate in my Top 5 3D movies [it's subtle and works well with the CGI]...It's too long would be my only complaint.


How to Train My Dragon: The Lost world 3D....like previous HTTYD 3D movies, some of the best of the best.


As for 'IS 3D DEAD'


Well it might be as far as TV reproduction goes, at least momentarily....NO 3D capable TV's being made AFIK, even Hisense has dropped out.


PJ 3D support is another matter, that's alive and well.


Not surprising really, as 3D has always looked better on a BIG Screen

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post #4158 of 4178 Old 04-23-2019, 03:31 AM
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So out of three 3D viewings only one was really a delightful, pro-3D experience. I don't claim that this ratio is representative of what average consumers might have experienced during the golden days of 3D, but if it's remotely applicable I for one could understand why consumers rather stayed with traditional 2D...
That appears to me to be the biggest downfall of current 3D and a contributor to its general lack of audience. If filmmakers had shown the same courage as the directors in the 1950s, emphasizing the depth and negative parallax, 3D at home might have proved more popular.
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post #4159 of 4178 Old 04-23-2019, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by tomtastic View Post
Active vs. passive, on LCD screens about equal in terms of crosstalk. LCD's are just more prone to crosstalk because it's a timing issue, pixel response rate is just not fast enough in high contrasting scenes. OLED is better, but I've noticed it too can show crosstalk in some demanding scenes. DLP is still the lowest crosstalk that I've seen, although not nearly as exciting PQ-wise.
Curious about the dimming of active vs passive TVs/projectors. I've read that active 3D has greater dimming than passive, but of course things can vary a lot between different models, different tech (OLED vs LCD vs plasma for TVs, DLP vs other types of PJs), etc., and there is no real A/B comparison to be made since there are no TVs that support both active/passive or TVs that are identical except for active vs passive support, but would be interested to know if one vs the other inherently dims the image more.

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Originally Posted by danlshane View Post
That appears to me to be the biggest downfall of current 3D and a contributor to its general lack of audience. If filmmakers had shown the same courage as the directors in the 1950s, emphasizing the depth and negative parallax, 3D at home might have proved more popular.
I have a good number of 3D titles, both animation and live action, but I mostly watch animation because with animation 3D is always impressive, at least with the titles I've watched (I have most main stream American 3D movies available except for the super rare Trolls). Live action is good too, just not quite as natural looking but that's the same as in the theater IME. Most 3D movies these days seem to be sci-fi/action and tend to be on the darker side to begin with, which leads to a poor experience with my Epson 5040UB. Would like to get a brighter PJ someday so that I can watch those movies properly in 3D but for now I need the automated lens shift/zoom/memory of the Epson for my CIH setup.

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post #4160 of 4178 Old 04-23-2019, 11:40 AM - Thread Starter
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The glasses reduce brightness more with active, that I can tell you for sure. But I generally watch my projector in total darkness with walls painted black so it's less of an issue. Never had a active flat screen so I can't really comment on those. I would say it's probably not a huge difference in brightness between the two formats.

In theater I recall being disappointed with Xpand glasses. They were heavy and dark. RealD is polarized, uses same glasses as LG screens use so bring your own if you want.
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post #4161 of 4178 Old 04-23-2019, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomtastic View Post
The glasses reduce brightness more with active, that I can tell you for sure. But I generally watch my projector in total darkness with walls painted black so it's less of an issue. Never had a active flat screen so I can't really comment on those. I would say it's probably not a huge difference in brightness between the two formats.

In theater I recall being disappointed with Xpand glasses. They were heavy and dark. RealD is polarized, uses same glasses as LG screens use so bring your own if you want.
Thanks, I've noticed more dimness with active 3D on my Epson projector (both Epson and slightly less with the Value View glasses) than my passive Sony 3D TV but again it's apples and oranges almost. I'm considering getting a gain increasing (can't remember the term) screen to help with performance with darker 3D movies but then again the Epson ain't great at black levels so maybe not.

For theaters, I have a slew of various passive 3D glasses I bought online over the years that I always bring, although I have noticed that the RealD 3D glasses seem improved these days. I even bought 3D glasses for IMAX (non-laser) that some dude was getting made in China in small batches and selling on Amazon that were great -- the one time I used them -- but that was shortly before IMAX phased out 3D movies. Just can't win but at least we have as much as we do, and at least 3D projectors are still being manufactured for now.

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post #4162 of 4178 Old 04-24-2019, 10:30 AM
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What about the DOlby 3D glasses? My brother gave me a pair of IMAX 3D and Real3D glasses to use last year at the theater. But then when I went to my first Dolby 3D showing, I found out that they use something completely different from what IMAX 3D and Real3D use.

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post #4163 of 4178 Old 05-25-2019, 11:21 PM
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Is there any difference in eye strain between SBS/TAB and Frame Packing?
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post #4164 of 4178 Old 05-25-2019, 11:39 PM
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I have an LG E6 and when you press the button on the remote marked 3d - all content is in 3d


OK it's not proper 3d, but you know what, neither are most movies that are sopposed to be mastered that way, most are just put through a very similar conversion process.
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post #4165 of 4178 Old 05-26-2019, 01:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
Is there any difference in eye strain between SBS/TAB and Frame Packing?
Not really, even if the SBS/TAB/OU image is half the resolution, the stereoscopic effect is the same and the strain is the same.

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post #4166 of 4178 Old 05-26-2019, 02:00 AM
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Originally Posted by barfle View Post
It might be kicking, but not very high these days.
3D never has kicked very high and it never will.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfa973 View Post
Not really, even if the SBS/TAB/OU image is half the resolution, the stereoscopic effect is the same and the strain is the same.
Maybe it's just me then, I seem to get more eye strain with sbs/tab.
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post #4168 of 4178 Old 05-26-2019, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
Maybe it's just me then, I seem to get more eye strain with sbs/tab.
I guess that you are more sensitive to parallax, there are movies with a lot of L/R separation, and movies that have mild separation.
For example, I do not like to view a movie with exaggerated L/R separation... Lots of 50's movies are like that.

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post #4169 of 4178 Old 05-26-2019, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
Maybe it's just me then, I seem to get more eye strain with sbs/tab.
It would depend on the particular video title and display device, but all other things being equal the SBS/OU version will generally be at a reduced visual resolution compared to Blu-ray 3D frame-packing, and that could cause your eyes to strain more in trying to see the 3D effect. Another possible factor to consider, if using active glasses, would be the possible impact of the frame rate used for the sbs/tab version. (This is a bit off-topic for this thread!)
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post #4170 of 4178 Old 05-28-2019, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gollygosh View Post
I have an LG E6 and when you press the button on the remote marked 3d - all content is in 3d
OK it's not proper 3d, but you know what, neither are most movies that are sopposed to be mastered that way, most are just put through a very similar conversion process.
Not quite- watch the extra on the "Men in Black 3" disc that shows a bit about proper 3D conversion. I still don't get why they don't shoot true 2-camera 3D more often, but it's still not as primitive as a TV's auto-conversion. That's essentially the visual equivalent of fake-stereo settings on sound systems.
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