IMAX 3D to Dwindle in North America - Page 8 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #211 of 313 Old 08-05-2017, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by film113 View Post
Hate to disappoint you but...no, it's not. Since the announcement, IMAX has back-tracked a bit. They are stating that they will still be utilizing 3D on a number of releases, especially if the filmmakers would like it to be seen that way. It just will no longer be a default policy. And that's fine...as some movies weren't made for 3D and don't need to be seen that way. (THE MUMMY for example.)

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post #212 of 313 Old 08-05-2017, 10:53 AM
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Thanks for the input, Mr Trump.
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post #213 of 313 Old 08-05-2017, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Viche View Post
Ditto on the good riddance.

Reviewing a few recent past posts of yours, you appear to be a 3D 'hater' and often make that evident with one liners and pictures that have zero contribution. I'm curious, why is that?
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post #214 of 313 Old 08-05-2017, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by film113 View Post
Thanks for the input, Mr Trump.


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Originally Posted by brazen1 View Post
Reviewing a few recent past posts of yours, you appear to be a 3D 'hater' and often make that evident with one liners and pictures that have zero contribution. I'm curious, why is that?
Keep digging and you'll find your answer.
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post #215 of 313 Old 08-05-2017, 01:16 PM
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3D is what used to make IMAX great..

back when IMAX was a great viewing experience. folks would go nuts over this intro



no IMAX 3D showings of T2 3D in a few weeks. All local Real 3D theaters are listing showings.
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post #216 of 313 Old 08-05-2017, 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
back when IMAX was a great viewing experience. folks would go nuts over this intro


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rrc2FszgSoA

no IMAX 3D showings of T2 3D in a few weeks. All local Real 3D theaters are listing showings.

Funny. In all seriousness I remember seeing that in 2D. Great intro.
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post #217 of 313 Old 08-06-2017, 02:10 AM
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Lets face it. When you want to show off your 3D, these are the scenes you select. You want the viewer to see the best of the best. You smile when you see them duck and say "WHOA!". Normal pop-outs, same thing.
Well perhaps this explains why 3D showings at IMAX haven't retained their popularity. People are not getting high doses of these sorts of more extreme effects and feel short-changed.


Incidentally, although that may be a popular way for people to show off 3D in their homes, it wouldn't be my way.

I'd demonstrate using scenes like these:

1. A school of rapidly swimming small fish. (A hard to make out writhing mass in 2D. A set of separately identifiable moving creatures in 3D.)

2. The opening scenes of Life of Pi. Nature, beautifully presented in 3D, with realistic (not exaggerated 3D depth).

3. Sparse raindrops falling onto to a still pond, making small waves that disturb the reflections of objects near the pond. (This would look even better in HDR with shafts of sunlight penetrating gaps in overhead foliage.)

4. Close-ups of human faces revealing the exact shape and contours of the head, cheeks, lips, and eyes.


My vision feasts on the above types of 3D scenes.

I note that all of the above would be very difficult to do successfully with 2D real life footage converted to 3D. These types of scenes call for separate left and right cameras, or very sophisticated CGI.
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post #218 of 313 Old 08-06-2017, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by MLXXX View Post
Well perhaps this explains why 3D showings at IMAX haven't retained their popularity. People are not getting high doses of these sorts of more extreme effects and feel short-changed.


Incidentally, although that may be a popular way for people to show off 3D in their homes, it wouldn't be my way.

I'd demonstrate using scenes like these:

1. A school of rapidly swimming small fish. (A hard to make out writhing mass in 2D. A set of separately identifiable moving creatures in 3D.)

2. The opening scenes of Life of Pi. Nature, beautifully presented in 3D, with realistic (not exaggerated 3D depth).

3. Sparse raindrops falling onto to a still pond, making small waves that disturb the reflections of objects near the pond. (This would look even better in HDR with shafts of sunlight penetrating gaps in overhead foliage.)

4. Close-ups of human faces revealing the exact shape and contours of the head, cheeks, lips, and eyes.


My vision feasts on the above types of 3D scenes.

I note that all of the above would be very difficult to do successfully with 2D real life footage converted to 3D. These types of scenes call for separate left and right cameras, or very sophisticated CGI.
Some types of content are better than others for showcasing 3D. In your 1st choice, you mentioned "a school of rapidly swimming fish." Spot on!! IMO, there is no better environment for 3D then underwater. I have the good fortune of being able to film 3D content in that environment. I edit it and view it in both 2D and 3D on my monitors and 10' projector screen. 3D adds so much additional realism and immersiveness to underwater content and brings the viewer- both diver and non diver- much closer to the feeling of actually being down there. With 2D, its nice but not even close.
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post #219 of 313 Old 08-06-2017, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by MagnumX View Post
If nothing ever pops out of the screen, it feels to me more like looking out a window than "being there" (unless you tend to experience your life through a window frame). I forget which movie it was I was watching a while back, but someone was flying and they're feet were facing the camera yet they were inside the screen and I remember thinking what a waste of an opportunity to have their feet dangling in front of your face and then fly into the screen, but clearly the director didn't believe having things much outside the screen was dignified since prim and proper use of 3D clearly involves a bunch of blue people running around a forest behind the screen. I honestly don't expect much from a Terminator 2 3D refit if nothing is going to jump out at you (and T2 has plenty of moments where this can and should happen (e.g. pointing the shot gun at the screen before firing at the T-1000).

The problem with no glasses 3D will be something similar. It won't likely be possible to have anything pop out of the screen so "3D" will be relegated to depth only effects which to me seems almost pointless since aperture control on cameras already provides depth of field clues in 2D. 3D might be a little better for depth perception, but if it creates new problems like crosstalk, it shoots itself in the foot.



You see this everywhere with every topic, though. Some people feel the need to force their opinions/views on everything on other people, particularly when they disagree. They spend their entire lives preaching to the "enemy" on how stupid they are to not see what they see. Nations go to war over difference in opinion about economic or political systems or religious beliefs. It all stems from EGO. People make themselves into "god" and "god must make everything the way he wants it" ; nothing else will do. Most of the biggest egos on the planet hang out on the Internet causing trouble because they either believe in it or they're amused by it. Sadly, it must work since the industry is convinced almost everyone HATES 3D when it's more like they don't want to pay extra, watch it only on small screens, get headaches or don't like crosstalk (industry's own fault for releasing faulty equipment).

It's even worse when the media (reviewers/bloggers/whatever) does it as they seem to have more influence on both the industry and people's opinions (i.e. if a review says 3D sucks and people who were considering it believe the reviewer, they may never even bother to look into it, let alone form their own opinion).
There is a HUGE disconnect between the 3D purists who adhere to the arcane rule that all content should be viewed behind the screen, as if looking through a window and, IMO, much of the general public who believe that 3D is supposed to have content which comes out of the screen- negative parallax. I really believe that one of the reasons that 3D never took off as well as if should have is because of this. If people come out of a theater after having paid for a 3D movie and don't see much "popout," I think most are disappointed. This is not to say that "popout" should be added gratuitously just for the sake of doing it. However, is definitely shouldn't be avoided, as I believe it often is, just because some reviewer will get his panties in a wad and say that, in his opinion, it's tacky.

I'm presently in the process of making an underwater 3D film for an educational and tourist oriented theater in Cozumel Mexico. I made it a point to ask them what kind of 3D they preferred. I explained to them what the classic 3D rules are, in this regard. They were incredulous. In their minds, this is not the 3D they envisioned and requested that there be an ample amount of content on all sides of the screen- which is the way I like to shoot it anyway. Again, a prime example of the disconnect that exists.
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post #220 of 313 Old 08-06-2017, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Barry C View Post
There is a HUGE disconnect between the 3D purists who adhere to the arcane rule that all content should be viewed behind the screen, as if looking through a window and, IMO, much of the general public who believe that 3D is supposed to have content which comes out of the screen- negative parallax.
I don't know why these chaps would be considered "purists" when all the early 3D I've viewed (courtesy of the 3D Rarities Blu-Ray) had LOADS of pop-out. Frankly, if they'd show baseball games in 3D the way they had that camera behind first base, I'd be watching a lot more baseball!

Some of the more recent movies I've been watching have had a nice balance. For example, I just got Beauty and the Beast (2017 Live Action) in 3D from the UK yesterday (sadly necessary to get some movies these days, although the current exchange rate seems to be working in my favor with some titles that are available here costing less to import than to buy locally like Cars 1 & 2) and watched it last night and it was somewhat restrained for negative parallax, but it had quite a few moments of it as well (I flinched when the snowball came right at my face, for example). The only thing I recall in TRON: Legacy was the discs coming right at the glasses in the arena "discs of tron" battle, but then that movie looked gorgeous even in 2D so the 3D kicking in during the virtual world plus IMAX aspect ratio changes made it "pop" in a different kind of way.

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I really believe that one of the reasons that 3D never took off as well as if should have is because of this. If people come out of a theater after having paid for a 3D movie and don't see much "popout," I think most are disappointed. This is not to say that "popout" should be added gratuitously just for the sake of doing it. However, is definitely shouldn't be avoided, as I believe it often is, just because some reviewer will get his panties in a wad and say that, in his opinion, it's tacky.
Yes, the "tacky" thing is what some reviewers seem to think of 3D PERIOD, regardless of how well it's done. You used to hear the same thing about 5.1 surround when it first came out. It's a DISTRACTION from the movie going on the screen!!! Stereo surround effects should be used sparingly so as to not jar the viewer to paying attention to the corner of their room instead of Arnold delivering his award winning acting on the screen! I was always shaking my head and looking for the "rule breaker" titles that showcased 5.1 sound, not "hid" it as a slightly enhanced Pro Logic. I remember watching the Goldeneye DVD over and over early on and Jurassic Park on DTS laserdisc.
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post #221 of 313 Old 08-06-2017, 10:42 PM
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Two problems with pop out. First it is hard to control edge violations. And it's even worse if you have a small screen and have to deal with decapitated polar bears that pop out of the screen. Or polar bear butts. Nothing's more unrealistic when this happens.

Second, too much makes people really nauseous because it isn't natural. Objects don't pop out of the screen. It's great when you want to be Hitchcock and suddenly surround the viewer with crows all of a sudden, but it needs to be restrained lest you really make the viewer sick.

I had to sit in front of an Ultra-D display day in and day out at work. I was thankful it's default settings were muted, because it's was the only way I could sit in front of it all day without getting sick. (I've cranked it during demos and I've nearly gotten sick after a minute) but at the default settings, I could see it was 3d (appearing completely natural) and be completely fine.

There's a fine line between using 3d to be dramatic, and keeping things toned down to avoid inducing illness in the audience. And there will be people in the audience where a photo of the sea induces seasickness.
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post #222 of 313 Old 08-06-2017, 11:40 PM
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I agree that there are some people who are sensitive to 3D and will easily become nauseous. My neighbor's son is one of them. However, it is my belief that those people don't go to 3D movies. Hence, the movies should be made with 3D effects which reflect at least a happy medium and not be geared for the lowest common denominator of tolerences. I also agree with you on your example of the window's violation with the slow moving polar bear. On the otherhand, if the polar bear was moving fast across the screen, that same window's violation would probably be inconsequential. Furthurmore, I believe that window's violations with stationary or slow moving objects on the top or bottom of the screen- as opposed to the left or right- are generally not problematic. There were several of them in Avatar and I didnt hear a lot of complaining.

Just like amusement park rides, there are some that I won't get anywhere near that my wife loves. Doesn't mean that those rides should be toned down. I stand by my belief that most people who see a 3D movie without sufficient popout are dissapointed and this has hurt 3D as a whole.
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post #223 of 313 Old 08-06-2017, 11:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Barry C View Post
There is a HUGE disconnect between the 3D purists who adhere to the arcane rule that all content should be viewed behind the screen, as if looking through a window and, ...
Which 3D purists are these? Where can such a rule be found? I have read about avoiding or minimizing edge violations, but I've never come across a recommendation to avoid -ve parallax altogether.

I recall that some software for on the fly 2D to 3D conversion doesn't create negative parallax but I'm not aware of any 3D movie released to the public where a portion of the content didn't at least some of the time protrude towards the viewer from the screen surface.
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post #224 of 313 Old 08-07-2017, 12:43 AM
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I totally understand that 3D is not for everyone, and that's okay.

However, I for one LOVE 3D - both at home and at the Theater.

I always choose to watch movies at the theater in 3D (when available).

At home, I have a 65" Samsung SUHD (4K) TV and purchase many (not all) of my Blu-ray movies in 3D format (it usually comes with a 2D version as well so this way I can choose to watch it in 3D or 2D - and that's just it: I have a choice). 3D was very much a "must have" feature when I was shopping for a new TV. It really saddens me that new Samsung TVs will no longer support it.

Do I think that every movie should be seen in 3D? No, of course not. As many have already stated, there are some great 3D movies, some average 3D movies, and some terrible ones that should never have been made/released in 3D. Not all are created equal. That said, I believe a "great" (or "very good") 3D movie looks fantastic on my TV.

My TV does get plenty bright (although nowhere near as bright as current models) so, by simply turning up the brightness (Backlight), the 3D movie looks every bit as bright as the 2D version. Besides, who watches regular (non-HDR) movies with their TV brightness "maxed-out"? Most TVs today have more than enough "reserve" brightness for 3D content.

I also LOVE viewing HDR content as well. UHD HDR content can look very "3D like" - however, "3D like" is NOT actually 3D. If I had to pick only one, I would probably still pick a "great" 3D movie in SDR over the same movie in HDR (as long as the 3D was well done). Of course, I often end up "double-dipping" on many of my favorites.

It really bothers and saddens me that 3D TVs are being "phased-out" . I really hope that my current Samsung TV doesn't break down anytime soon. Heck, if I could afford it, I would go out and buy another 3D TV right now - just in case.

Richard

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post #225 of 313 Old 08-07-2017, 01:12 AM
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I agree that there are some people who are sensitive to 3D and will easily become nauseous. My neighbor's son is one of them. However, it is my belief that those people don't go to 3D movies.
I just found out one of the pairs of active 3D glasses I bought (tried 3 different brands and have 4 pairs of glasses) has the ability to watch 3D movies in 2D at the double click of the button on the side of the glasses (namely the "XPAND" glasses I picked up at Best Buy). This enables someone to watch a 3D movie in 2D at the same time other people in the room are watching it in 3D (obviously it syncs both shutters to the same picture meant for one eye to do this instead of alternating them). I thought it was a neat little feature if you have someone in the house or visiting that hates 3D so you can all still watch the movie at the same time. It does have the unfortunate side effect of making the image darker just like the 3D view and the strobing effect which can be disconcerting to some people's eyes as the shutters change so quickly).

My Epson 3100 is almost too bright in a dark room in 2D in ECO mode, but could stand to be a little bit brighter in 3D even in high power mode as the shutter glasses are pretty dark (peak over the top of them during the 3D movie and you almost go blind it's so bright without them) The dynamic cinema mode makes it even brighter, but also washes it out a little bit. I typically use high power overall brightness + low 3D brightness with 60 inch size (despite 93" screen) plus depth of 1 to minimize crosstalk--nearly zero on Beauty and the Beast 3D last night). It was a bit dark in the castle/night forest scenes, but then it was night so... maybe it was actually too bright in 2D. It's hard to tell when you have so little control over overall brightness with only 3 settings.

I imagine someone could make passive 3D glasses that have both polarized lenses in the same direction to achieve 2D on a passive system in the same way (since they're cheaper anyway, you could just keep a couple of these around for the same effect or make your own by cutting out the lenses from opposite eyes on passive glasses and swapping them).
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post #226 of 313 Old 08-07-2017, 02:14 AM
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Originally Posted by roxiedog13 View Post
With well over 60 movies in queue into 2018 , the death will continue and most of us who fully enjoy the increased immersion will have plenty of options for years to come. There are 43, 3D titles listed for 2017 alone, IMAX is not going to signal the death of 3D nor will any other single franchise.
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This is IMAX, most theaters use Real D or Dolby 3D. IMAX is facing pressure and 3D is the most expendable. 3D is very much around in other theaters.

^^^ Totally agree!!!



This article was only in regards to 3D movie showings in IMAX Theaters.

3D might no longer be "popular" in the home or in IMAX Theaters, but it is still very popular in other movie Theaters.

And I don't think that's going to change anytime soon.

I think that all of you who believe that this will lead to, or is the start of, the demise of 3D in the Theaters are "celebrating" a little prematurely.

George Miller (Mad Max): "I love 3D stereo! In fact, when we were going to shoot this back in 2001, I was dumb enough to try to do it classic analglyph and just have a few scenes with the green and red as it were. In this film, if I had a choice, I'd see it in 3D."

J.J. Abrams (Star Wars): "When I was watching the reels in 3D, there were a number of shots - and I know this sounds insane - that I hadn’t understood in the three-dimensional space quite the way I did when I saw them in 3D. I actually felt that there were things that were playing better in 3D. I had never felt that before."

Ang Lee (Life of PI): "For Life of Pi, I’d like them to just go along with the story and not think about the 3D – and as they walk out they forget to take off their glasses. That’d be the ideal. Which really happened! I heard a lot of those cases and was very happy to hear that... I’d use it for drama too. The volume that it gives the face is more intense and more dramatic (than 2D)." (His next film about the Ali fight will be in 3D.)

James Gunn (Guardians of the Galaxy): "Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 2 is designed to be a fully immersive experience to be seen in theaters... Unlike many other films today where screen size shifts and 3D are afterthoughts, we plan our aspect ratios during the script stage, and every single shot is tailored for 3D as we shoot it... I personally oversee the 3D."


Richard
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post #227 of 313 Old 08-07-2017, 02:21 AM
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For films where the director very much had 3-D in mind also add 'Everest' to the list.
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post #228 of 313 Old 08-07-2017, 03:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Fox1966 View Post
I think that 3D is being killed, rather than dying...

Spoiler!

+1

(or is that like +5 now )

Very well said my friend.

Totally agree!



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post #229 of 313 Old 08-07-2017, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MLXXX View Post
I'd demonstrate using scenes like these:

1. A school of rapidly swimming small fish. (A hard to make out writhing mass in 2D. A set of separately identifiable moving creatures in 3D.)

2. The opening scenes of Life of Pi. Nature, beautifully presented in 3D, with realistic (not exaggerated 3D depth).

3. Sparse raindrops falling onto to a still pond, making small waves that disturb the reflections of objects near the pond. (This would look even better in HDR with shafts of sunlight penetrating gaps in overhead foliage.)

4. Close-ups of human faces revealing the exact shape and contours of the head, cheeks, lips, and eyes.
I would add to that list footage of caves and caverns. In its early days of production Sawyer's View-Master knew that underground formations were ideal fodder for their 7-image reels, and I still use my View-Master Personal Stereo camera whenever I tour a commercial cave or explore a wild cave. Flat photography does little to represent the fantastic underground world, but 3-D photos really impress with the depth in the terrain. You don't even need pop-outs to see how much stereo enhances the experience.

Even Werner Herzog, who is not particularly enamored with 3-D films, recognized the need for it in his documentary, CAVE OF FORGOTTEN DREAMS.
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post #230 of 313 Old 08-07-2017, 07:57 AM
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This phenomenon is also never reported on: Watching 3D is actually watching two separate 1080p images, which get combined in the brain as double the resolution since pixels are offset in each eye. Thus the image is closer to being a fauxK image than simply watching a 2D image. It also opens up dark areas for more detail since the eye can now see differences in dark objects that do not show up in 2D. I proved this when I watched a 4K version of Passengers and the 3D version, which was much better. The downside of this phenom is that some people are bothered by it and makes their eyes and brain hurt.
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post #231 of 313 Old 08-07-2017, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
back when IMAX was a great viewing experience. folks would go nuts over this intro
That IMAX intro was recently re-mixed (in 12-track also) by AVS Forum member @FilmMixer .
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post #232 of 313 Old 08-07-2017, 06:00 PM
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^^^ Totally agree!!!



This article was only in regards to 3D movie showings in IMAX Theaters.

3D might no longer be "popular" in the home, but it is still very popular in other movie Theaters.

And I don't think that's going to change anytime soon.

I think that all of you who believe that this will lead to, or is the start of, the demise of 3D in the Theaters are "celebrating" a little prematurely.

George Miller (Mad Max): "I love 3D stereo! In fact, when we were going to shoot this back in 2001, I was dumb enough to try to do it classic analglyph and just have a few scenes with the green and red as it were. In this film, if I had a choice, I'd see it in 3D."

J.J. Abrams (Star Wars): "When I was watching the reels in 3D, there were a number of shots - and I know this sounds insane - that I hadn’t understood in the three-dimensional space quite the way I did when I saw them in 3D. I actually felt that there were things that were playing better in 3D. I had never felt that before."

Ang Lee (Life of PI): "For Life of Pi, I’d like them to just go along with the story and not think about the 3D – and as they walk out they forget to take off their glasses. That’d be the ideal. Which really happened! I heard a lot of those cases and was very happy to hear that... I’d use it for drama too. The volume that it gives the face is more intense and more dramatic (than 2D)." (His next film about the Ali fight will be in 3D.)

James Gunn (Guardians of the Galaxy): "Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 2 is designed to be a fully immersive experience to be seen in theaters... Unlike many other films today where screen size shifts and 3D are afterthoughts, we plan our aspect ratios during the script stage, and every single shot is tailored for 3D as we shoot it... I personally oversee the 3D."


Richard
Great points, confirms what I have been saying all along .3D is absolutely solid, not going to "DIE" any time soon. For the life of me though, I don't get the mindset of the 3D haters . Why they are so desperate to see it disappear , I cannot understand . As soon as someone says 3D is dying they are all jumping on the 3D is dead bandwagon. I'm happy enough to let others enjoy their preference of movies, choose to not go to certain movies
that I don't like and don't buy those I do not enjoy , believe me there are plenty . There are plenty of options for everyone , enjoy yours, "live and let live."
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post #233 of 313 Old 08-07-2017, 06:14 PM
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I agree that there are some people who are sensitive to 3D and will easily become nauseous. My neighbor's son is one of them. However, it is my belief that those people don't go to 3D movies. Hence, the movies should be made with 3D effects which reflect at least a happy medium and not be geared for the lowest common denominator of tolerences. I also agree with you on your example of the window's violation with the slow moving polar bear. On the otherhand, if the polar bear was moving fast across the screen, that same window's violation would probably be inconsequential. Furthurmore, I believe that window's violations with stationary or slow moving objects on the top or bottom of the screen- as opposed to the left or right- are generally not problematic. There were several of them in Avatar and I didnt hear a lot of complaining.

Just like amusement park rides, there are some that I won't get anywhere near that my wife loves. Doesn't mean that those rides should be toned down. I stand by my belief that most people who see a 3D movie without sufficient popout are dissapointed and this has hurt 3D as a whole.
Best popout ever is the Star Destroyer in the Star wars movie Force Awakens. The space ship literally was suspended inside my theater for a few seconds , my guests and myself watched this over and over .
In all fairness I'm not a fan of popouts perse except in the example above when done well .

One great example of a 3D movie done well with 3D is Hugo . It was directed be Martin Scorsese and it was his first 3D movie. He used 3D so well, including some well done popouts, overall a fantastic job
much better viewed in 3D as the director intended .

Not all 3D movies are done well, but neither are many other movies in 2D. 3D gets exploited just like 2D to generate sales, somehow only 3D is picked on.

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post #234 of 313 Old 08-07-2017, 06:45 PM
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Best popout ever is the Star Destroyer in the Star wars movie Force Awakens. The space ship literally was suspended inside my theater for a few seconds, my guests and myself watched this over and over.

Funny you mentioning this.

My wife and I just re-watched this one last week.





Richard

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post #235 of 313 Old 08-07-2017, 10:16 PM
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post #236 of 313 Old 08-08-2017, 01:18 PM
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Best popout ever is the Star Destroyer in the Star wars movie Force Awakens. The space ship literally was suspended inside my theater for a few seconds , my guests and myself watched this over and over .
In all fairness I'm not a fan of popouts perse except in the example above when done well .

One great example of a 3D movie done well with 3D is Hugo . It was directed be Martin Scorsese and it was his first 3D movie. He used 3D so well, including some well done popouts, overall a fantastic job
much better viewed in 3D as the director intended .
A lot of the problem is due to the lack of imagination from most of today's "directors" ,most of whom I consider to be hacks, regardless of how big the budget is. For example...for KONG: SI, how cool would it have been if they had one (just one!) shot of Kong's hand/paw reaching out into the audience as if to grab someone. Wouldn't have been out of place in that movie and would have been a memorable scene for the audience. But today's directors (I can't call them filmmakers) don't have the visual eye or imagination to even think of something like that.
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post #237 of 313 Old 08-08-2017, 01:53 PM
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I think that 3D is being killed, rather than dying. Do you notice how every time there is something negative about 3D, writers on A/V websites jump on the news quickly and spread it quickly with big strong headlines, such as this one (no offense, Scott). However, when there is something positive about 3D or a 3D movie, you don’t hear about it unless you stumble on it by accident.

For example, people who own Ghost in the Shell are reporting that the 3D version is far superior to the 4K version. I have both versions, and I agree with this wholeheartedly – the 3D version completely blows away the 4K UHD version on my OLED sets. A few days ago (I haven’t checked today) the 3D version of that movie was #8 seller on Amazon.com, the 4K UHD version was #25. Nobody reports this – you don’t hear instances of when 3D outsells 4K, but you darn sure hear it if 4K outsells 3D. It seems that there is a spin put on the news in regard to 3D, and you won’t hear the good news, but you won’t be able to avoid the bad news. (Kong: Skull Island is another new release where the 3D version is superior to the 4K version –compare them side by side if you haven’t on an OLED or top of the line LCD).

I found it amusing also when over 15,000 people signed the petition to LG, begging them to keep at least one 3D model in their lineup moving forward. I was in communication with the creator of that petition and he had to really work and beg authors of A/V sites to cover any news about the petition. And when they did, most of them put a negative stance on it instead of reporting on the thousands and thousands of positive comments that people were leaving on the petition in support of 3D. These comments were coming from directors, museums that use 3D televisions in displays, schools, and of course thousands upon thousands of regular folks who just happened to be 3D fans. Now, the thing is, with so little publicity no one really knew about the petition unless they happened to be someone who heard about it from a friend or who happened to read one of the few web stories about it. So, it is likely that for every 1 person that signed it, there are many more that would have supported it, had they known what was happening.

In contrast, when the petition to LG to support Dolby Atmos appeared, A/V sites and authors jumped on it like it was the most important thing in the world. Already “over 1000 people” have signed it! Now, that petition still hasn’t met 2,000 signatures but not terribly long ago I had a story pushed to my phone about it, making it seem like it was the most important thing in the world for Dolby Atmos to be added, and encouraging everyone to support the petition. I never had a story pushed to my phone about the 3D petition! Yet, almost 15 times as many people were in support of the 3D petition as opposed to the Dolby Atmos position.

It is just my opinion (and we all have one), but I just don’t see how anyone thinks that a 2D 4K HDR image can beat the immersive factor of a good 3D image, even a 1080P 3D image. I’ve compared almost every release that has come out so far in both 3D and 4K on my LG OLED, and the 3D wins every time. Every single person I’ve demoed 3D and 4K to agree as well, the 3D image is more realistic, more immersive, and draws you into the movie like a flat image simply cannot do.

I believe that when manufacturers finally realized that 3D was a niche market, and that not EVERYONE wanted to watch EVERYTHING in 3D, they quickly came out with 4K HDR, leaving 3D specs out to try to move everyone to one format. That way, they could resell their entire catalog, yet again. Back off advertising of 3D, pull all 3D technology so that even discs you currently own cannot be played on future televisions, and force everyone into 4K – that way, they hope to push the fans that truly prefer 3D into 4K and resell to them yet again. Of course, by the time they kill 3D entirely and try to cram a not-very-well planned 4K HDR agenda down everyone’s throats, we can expect 8K to follow on its heels.

It’s a darn shame – there is plenty of room for both 3D and 4K in the market. At least I’ll be saving some money, because I bought almost every 3D release to date – I definitely will NOT be doing that for 4K.
You are absolutely on target, which is why I loathe most people in the A/V arena (especially writers). And it's true, nobody gives a crap about Atmos or DTS:X. If both vanished tomorrow, there would not be 13000 complaints. And...in fact, no one (outside of A/V sites) gives a crap about 4K either. And most (like me) find it much ado about very little...probably the weakest excuse of a so-called "upgrade" I've ever seen. (And some directors despise it as well.)

Yet the A/V industry puts out PRs hyping the most insignificant aspects. For example, a few days ago, there was a press release praising the "great success" of UHD because GHOST IN THE SHELL had an 11% market share one week. That is sold as "gangbusters!" to the UHD acolytes and they swallow it without question. (And of course, when EQUALLY available, 3D outsells 4K, as seen on the Amazon sales listings for that title). Of course, when 3D titles were available and getting 20% - 33% market share, you never heard a word! No articles of press releases praising the large market gains in 3D. Instead, there were the usual "3D must die", "3D doesn't sell" and other similar writings from will-never-visit-again sites like C/Net and others. Heck, even AVS no longer reviews 3D discs but heaps praise on every negligible UHD disc released. (No offense to the reviewers here, whose work I've enjoyed and respected in the past, but I no longer bother with even reading the reviews now...they are aimed at the choir and so hold little interest for me.)

Having both formats, I almost never buy a 4K disc. Most of them are barely different from an up-rezzed BD (and some are actually worse but still get praised) and none even come close comparing to 3D (which often has better sharpness and shadow detail than a standard 2D BD) for a movie experience. Like you, I've seen and had a few demos and, like you, all preferred the 3D presentation over 4K...100% of the time! Aesthetically, 3D is the real advance in home video. (HDR is just a gimmick that alters a movie, making it look "different" but not accurate in relation to the theatrical presentation.) And if writers and other so-called "experts" had an ounce of integrity or ethics, they would have been applauding the 3D now seen on passive sets and championing it just as much as they do 4K. They should be arguing for its continuation. But they aren't and they won't.

So yes...3D is indeed being killed and it has NOTHING to do with consumer demand. It is 100% industry-driven and why I pay no attention to anything the industry praises, no matter how detailed. The consumer and the home theater experience is the last thing they care about so I'm certainly not going to care what they say about Set A being better than Set B. Instead, I rely on the opinions of others who are not in those positions (as well as my own eyes/ears) to make my purchasing decisions. (And yes, GitM 3D is easily superior to the 4K and 1080p versions. Not even a contest.)

As for IMAX, I've seen some pretty crappy 3D presentations at those theaters in the past 2 years. If they can't be bothered to display them in the best possible manner, its okay by me if they cut it back since I won't be seeing movies there as often as in the past. (Time was IMAX guaranteed the pinnacle of movie presentation quality...today, not so much.)
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post #238 of 313 Old 08-08-2017, 02:05 PM
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Heck, even AVS no longer reviews 3D discs but heaps praise on every negligible UHD disc released. (No offense to the reviewers here, whose work I've enjoyed and respected in the past, but I no longer bother with even reading the reviews now...they are aimed at the choir and so hold little interest for me.)

Having both formats, I almost never buy a 4K disc. Most of them are barely different from an up-rezzed BD (and some are actually worse but still get praised) and none even come close comparing to 3D (which often has better sharpness and shadow detail than a standard 2D BD) for a movie experience.
Worse yet, a lot of studios are now only putting 5.1 on the 2D (and 3D when also included) Blu-Rays and saving 7.1 and Atmos and/or DTS:X exclusively for the 4K version ot PUSH you to 4K kicking and screaming when you DON'T WANT OR NEED IT (i.e. I just bought an Epson 3100 projector; it can't do 4K so I don't give a crap about it, but I will buy the combo pack if it's only a couple of dollars more or if it's the only real way to get 3D (e.g. Ghostbusters and Passengers), but if I want to hear the Atmos soundtrack, I'd need to buy a 4K player JUST to end up down-converting to 1080p because they won't put Atmos on the regular Blu-Ray for no reason other than SPITE. There's TONS OF ROOM (I think Atmos only takes up the equivalent of one more soundtrack) on the average BD that they can put 5.1 versions of like 4 more languages and 3 more in stereo and still have 20GB left over on many movies, but they have NO ROOM for Atmos or X. Yeah, sure. It's wrong and it's BS.
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post #239 of 313 Old 08-08-2017, 02:23 PM
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Worse yet, a lot of studios are now only putting 5.1 on the 2D (and 3D when also included) Blu-Rays and saving 7.1 and Atmos and/or DTS:X exclusively for the 4K version ot PUSH you to 4K kicking and screaming when you DON'T WANT OR NEED IT (i.e. I just bought an Epson 3100 projector; it can't do 4K so I don't give a crap about it, but I will buy the combo pack if it's only a couple of dollars more or if it's the only real way to get 3D (e.g. Ghostbusters and Passengers), but if I want to hear the Atmos soundtrack, I'd need to buy a 4K player JUST to end up down-converting to 1080p because they won't put Atmos on the regular Blu-Ray for no reason other than SPITE. There's TONS OF ROOM (I think Atmos only takes up the equivalent of one more soundtrack) on the average BD that they can put 5.1 versions of like 4 more languages and 3 more in stereo and still have 20GB left over on many movies, but they have NO ROOM for Atmos or X. Yeah, sure. It's wrong and it's BS.
OF COURSE it's BS. It is all agenda-driven and that is something I've always been immune to. No genuine reason whatsoever to suddenly eliminate Atmos from 3D discs. (Seems like they had plenty of room before UHD came along.)
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post #240 of 313 Old 08-08-2017, 02:45 PM
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OF COURSE it's BS. It is all agenda-driven and that is something I've always been immune to. No genuine reason whatsoever to suddenly eliminate Atmos from 3D discs. (Seems like they had plenty of room before UHD came along.)
On the other hand, you'd think they'd want to push Atmos adoption as well since it's more sales for companies like Sony to sell more receivers and speakers, etc., yet Sony is one of the ones leaving it off the regular BDs (e.g. Ghostbusters 4K has Atmos and 3D/2D/Digital Copy does not).

But then Sony is working against themselves by not including 4K on the PS4 to encourage faster adoption because the Playstation division says that "streaming" is the future. It might be, but you'd think they'd want to maximize sales/adoption of 4K BD in the mean time. They're working against their own best interests. And yet these "smart" people making these decisions are making millions. Go figure.
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