Silver Ticket Screen? - Page 60 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1771 of 1800 Old 11-17-2019, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuroman11 View Post
noob00224, is there a particular screen you would recommend for my set up ?
Depends, is the room going to be treated?
The Picture Quality of the projector will suffer if not, especially the dark parts.

If the room will be treated a white screen will do.



If not than a High Contrast fabric would be best suited, since it has the highest gain at 0.67 out of all the grey screens.

LE: the 385 and 285 are similar in terms of brightness, and if @Laserfan says he is happy with the brightness, it may be ok.

Last edited by noob00224; 11-17-2019 at 02:44 PM.
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post #1772 of 1800 Old 11-18-2019, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
...if @Laserfan says he is happy with the brightness, it may be ok.
I should qualify my happiness: I watch movies in the dark! Period! No live TV and especially perhaps no sports, so my idea of acceptable brightness might be different from others. The closest I get to feeling like I need more brightness might be with 3D movies, though even there we like them well enough.

Neuroman11 your screen and seating is a bit closer than ours, and if you plan a 16x9 screen (ours is 2.35:1) then all those things will help with perceived brightness.
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post #1773 of 1800 Old 11-18-2019, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laserfan View Post
I should qualify my happiness: I watch movies in the dark! Period! No live TV and especially perhaps no sports, so my idea of acceptable brightness might be different from others. ...
This is an important factor that's often overlooked. We're generally accustomed to watching movies at commercial cinemas in the 20 fL range and TV shows on our televisions at home with more than double the brightness. When we watch movies at home on video projection systems at high fL it can seem more TV-like. Some want to replicate the brightness of the commercial theater experience for viewing movies while others may prefer everything being TV bright. So personal preference plays a big role in how bright we want our home video projection systems to be. We need to focus on our own personal preferences rather than what others tell us works best for them.
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post #1774 of 1800 Old 11-18-2019, 09:04 AM
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Laserfan

I also watch only in the dark (I have blackout curtains) and only movies on Blu-ray. However the walls are light brown and ceiling off white. I would really prefer not to paint the room so maybe the high contrast screen is the way to go. Would a gray screen be a good compromise or not much difference from white? I assume you have a Silver Ticket? I had an in home consultation from Best Buy and they said the darker screens make the picture brighter. Of course he was probably just trying to sell me the more expensive screens.
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post #1775 of 1800 Old 11-18-2019, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuroman11 View Post
Laserfan

I also watch only in the dark (I have blackout curtains) and only movies on Blu-ray. However the walls are light brown and ceiling off white. I would really prefer not to paint the room so maybe the high contrast screen is the way to go. Would a gray screen be a good compromise or not much difference from white? I assume you have a Silver Ticket? I had an in home consultation from Best Buy and they said the darker screens make the picture brighter. Of course he was probably just trying to sell me the more expensive screens.
Grey screens will help with the contrast when there’s significant room reflections, assuming you have enough lumens to overcome the lower gain. Note that the Silver Ticket grey screen has a measured gain of less than 0.7; i.e., you’ll be losing 30% brightness.

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post #1776 of 1800 Old 11-18-2019, 11:47 AM
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Dominic

Their website states that the gain of the gray screen is 1?
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post #1777 of 1800 Old 11-18-2019, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuroman11 View Post
Dominic

Their website states that the gain of the gray screen is 1?
With the exception of Stewart, you cannot trust the posted gains. If you go back a few posts you will find my measured gains for all Silver Ticket screen materials.

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post #1778 of 1800 Old 11-18-2019, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuroman11 View Post
Dominic

Their website states that the gain of the gray screen is 1?
From the previous page:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
I received the sample kit and measured the gains of each material. The gain measurements are correct in relative terms, but the values are assuming 1.0 for the white paper. The R,G,B percentages are relative to the 1.3 gain raw material, as that's what I calibrated my projector to.

Material; Gain; R,G,B percentages
Walmart Pen Gear 92 White Paper: 1.00 (reference) 101, 100, 101
1.3 Raw Material: 1.11 100, 100, 100 (reference)
1.1 Matte white: 0.99 98, 100, 101
1.0 Matte grey: 0.59 95, 100, 106
0.95 High Contrast Grey: 0.67 101, 100, 98
1.5 Silver Glossy Side 1.03 99, 100, 102
1.5 Silver Matte Side: 0.66 99, 100, 102
1.1 Woven Acoustic WAB: 0.74 98, 100, 101

Not surprisingly, the measured gains are less than the rated values, some significantly so. The worst one is the Silver material - 0.66 vs 1.5 for the matte side which supposedly is the front.
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post #1779 of 1800 Old 11-18-2019, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuroman11 View Post
Laserfan I also watch only in the dark (I have blackout curtains) and only movies on Blu-ray. However the walls are light brown and ceiling off white. I would really prefer not to paint the room so maybe the high contrast screen is the way to go. Would a gray screen be a good compromise or not much difference from white? I assume you have a Silver Ticket? I had an in home consultation from Best Buy and they said the darker screens make the picture brighter. Of course he was probably just trying to sell me the more expensive screens.
Yes I have the 125" Cinemascope Silver Ticket in High Contrast. I've had a white screen in the past, and an admittedly less-capable PJ the HC4900 Mitsubishi, and blacks were never black, only dark grey. So in building my new HT I just wanted BLACK! so I went with HC and am very happy with it.

As discussed here many times this is a personal decision based on your experience, viewing prefs, and of course budget. And what made the ST a no-brainer for me was the simple fact that if I disliked the screen so much that I wanted to replace it, I would not be out an arm and a leg-worth of money. If I weren't happy, I'd probably just buy another similar ST with a different material and the cost at <$500 is not a huge hit given the HT cost 40 times that!
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post #1780 of 1800 Old 11-18-2019, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laserfan View Post
If I weren't happy, I'd probably just buy another similar ST with a different material and the cost at <$500 is not a huge hit given the HT cost 40 times that!
You can also just swap the screen material.

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post #1781 of 1800 Old 11-18-2019, 03:39 PM
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I see that the gain for the gray matte is lower than the high contrast. Does that mean the high contrast is brighter? Iwould that be preferable in my described HT set up? I know it’s personable preference. I just would like to get your opinions. I apologize for all of the questions. I just don’t know anyone who knows home theater. I appreciate everyone’s input
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post #1782 of 1800 Old 11-18-2019, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuroman11 View Post
I see that the gain for the gray matte is lower than the high contrast. Does that mean the high contrast is brighter? Iwould that be preferable in my described HT set up? I know it’s personable preference. I just would like to get your opinions. I apologize for all of the questions. I just don’t know anyone who knows home theater. I appreciate everyone’s input
HC grey works better than matte grey if you have stray light or reflected light from ceiling and side walls (white or light-colours). By the same token, it has a narrower viewing angle, and some sheen or sparkles.

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Last edited by Dominic Chan; 11-19-2019 at 11:35 AM.
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post #1783 of 1800 Old 11-19-2019, 05:06 AM
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Again, thank you all for your help.

Given my set up (Sony 285es 14’ from screen, dark room with blackout curtains, light walls and off white ceiling) would you think Silver Ticket HC or Elite CineGrey 3D be best?
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post #1784 of 1800 Old 11-19-2019, 05:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuroman11 View Post
Again, thank you all for your help.

Given my set up (Sony 285es 14’ from screen, dark room with blackout curtains, light walls and off white ceiling) would you think Silver Ticket HC or Elite CineGrey 3D be best?
The Cinegrey 3D will raise the black level, or at least it did on my setup. It also requires a minimum throw range of 1.5x. An 120" screen from 14' will have an 1.6x throw. It will very likely have a hotspot and sparkle in the center of the screen.

It's also much more expensive as a screen, unless the fabric is acquired and mounted on a frame.
The Cinegrey 3D is more a screen for environments with medium to medium-high ambient light, i.e. sports bars, lights on sports watching.

For lights off viewing the ST HC will be more appropriate.
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post #1785 of 1800 Old 11-19-2019, 06:26 AM
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Thank you noob00224. Is 120” appropriate size at 14’?
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post #1786 of 1800 Old 11-19-2019, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Neuroman11 View Post
Thank you noob00224. Is 120” appropriate size at 14’?
Isn't the seating at 8'?


The projector can be used on a wall for few weeks and see what is acceptable.
It's not something that is generally agreed upon. Personal preference comes into play.

From this thread:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-di...ed-angles.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by AV_Integrated View Post
The amazing reality is that 10" of diagonal for each foot of viewing distance is almost the easiest way to describe things. Yeah, no calculations really necessary.

In surveys here (AVS) it seems that 10" to 12" of diagonal per foot of viewing distance is almost always the preferred screen size.

Yeah, some like it larger (a lot) some like it smaller, but not many do.

I know I like about 10" per foot of viewing distance myself. I'm sure this thread will have a bunch of others chiming in with their screen size and viewing distance. Especially those who enjoy their 13"+ diagonal for each foot of viewing distance.

While I think you did emphasize 'personal preference', it would have been good if you recommended that people buy a projector first, set it up on a coffee table, and actually watch at a few different sizes before buying a screen. That's always a good rule for so many. This way they can decide on their personally preferred screen size before investing in a screen. While I love my 16' to 161", others may want to be 18 or 19 feet back and others may want the same screen from 12' away. Try before you buy should always be the direction taken.
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post #1787 of 1800 Old 11-19-2019, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
The Cinegrey 3D will raise the black level, or at least it did on my setup. It also requires a minimum throw range of 1.5x. An 120" screen from 14' will have an 1.6x throw. It will very likely have a hotspot and sparkle in the center of the screen.

For lights off viewing the ST HC will be more appropriate.
ST HC also has hotspot. See side-by-side comparison with the ST matte grey.



Note the picture was taken with the material wrapped around a tube to make the effect more obvious; on an actual screen the brightness gradient will be spread over a much wider area.

It can also be seen that the HC is brighter than the matte grey only where the light reflects directly; everywhere else it’s darker.
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Last edited by Dominic Chan; 11-19-2019 at 03:28 PM.
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post #1788 of 1800 Old 11-19-2019, 08:48 AM
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FWIW I have a 125" wide HC and have never observed hotspotting or sparkles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
You can also just swap the screen material.
Although I have never contacted ST about this, their website does not indicate one can easily buy e.g. in my case a different material to fit my 125" wide Scope frame.
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post #1789 of 1800 Old 11-19-2019, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laserfan View Post
FWIW I have a 125" wide HC and have never observed hotspotting or sparkles.


Although I have never contacted ST about this, their website does not indicate one can easily buy e.g. in my case a different material to fit my 125" wide Scope frame.
https://www.silverticketproducts.com...-frame-screens

$154 for the matte white in your size. They may charge you less if you’re an existing customer.

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post #1790 of 1800 Old 11-19-2019, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
https://www.silverticketproducts.com...-frame-screens

They may charge you less if you’re an existing customer.
Well look at that! I have not explored their website for a couple years so thanks for sharing!
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post #1791 of 1800 Old 11-19-2019, 09:01 AM
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noob00224. My projector lens is about 14’ from screen. I sit 8’ from screen
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post #1792 of 1800 Old 11-19-2019, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
ST HC also has hotspot. See side-by-side comparison with the ST matte grey.



Note the picture was taken with the material wrapped around a tube to make the effect more obvious; on an actual screen the brightness gradient will be spread over a much wider area.
I assume any artifacting will be less severe or even unnoticeable since the screen is just 0.67 gain and is not that dark.

@
Quote:
Originally Posted by Laserfan View Post
FWIW I have a 125" wide HC and have never observed hotspotting or sparkles.
How far is the projector placed from the screen?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuroman11 View Post
noob00224. My projector lens is about 14’ from screen. I sit 8’ from screen
I commented on screen sizes in this post:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/23-sc...l#post58842550
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post #1793 of 1800 Old 11-19-2019, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
I assume any artifacting will be less severe or even unnoticeable since the screen is just 0.67 gain and is not that dark.
The screen is pretty dark. If you look at that picture, where you get the direct reflection the HC is brighter than the matte grey, but off centre it gets much darker than matte grey.

Sparkles are less noticeable on less bright screens, but the light fall-off is independent of the brightness.

The matte grey is wrapped on the same tube, and yet looking at the picture you may not realize that as the brightness is uniform.

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Last edited by Dominic Chan; 11-19-2019 at 01:09 PM.
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post #1794 of 1800 Old 11-19-2019, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
How far is the projector placed from the screen?
My 385 is at 15' 8" from my HC screen.
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post #1795 of 1800 Old 11-19-2019, 03:08 PM
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How did they manage to do that rollout on the ceilings and side with the black fabric ?
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post #1796 of 1800 Old 11-19-2019, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laserfan View Post
My 385 is at 15' 8" from my HC screen.

15'8" (188")/115.125" (screen width)=1.633 throw ratio.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laserfan View Post
FWIW I have a 125" wide HC and have never observed hotspotting or sparkles.
14' (168")/1.633=102.87" screen width.
That is either 121.25" in 2.35:1 format or 118" inches for 16:9 format.

Laserfan's 385 is similar in brightness to the 295.

@Neuroman11 you should still try to project an image on the wall to see what works, but a 16:9 screen of up to 118/120" should not have any hotspots or sparkles. With the HC fabric.
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post #1797 of 1800 Old 11-25-2019, 12:15 PM
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Silver ticket screen in vaulted open living room. 6500 lumens, TR of 1.1

I have an Epson G7500U (faux-K) projector I use outside (from 30ft away it projects a 21ftx9ft 2.35 image).
  • It has 6500 lumens.
  • It's almost winter now and I would like to try to use it indoors, mainly for night time viewing because the room has windows, a lot of light penetration and white walls.
  • If I can get it to work for some daytime viewing that would be a bonus. I'm not open to painting the front wall or ceiling dark in this room.
  • Throw ratio will be 1.1 (15.5 ft distance / 14 ft width).

What screen material do you suggest for no moire?

Thanks,
ELmO


IN PROGRESS - Outdoor Theater:
Epson G7500U, Carl's Place CIH 21ft wide x 9ft screen

Game room:
Epson 5040UBE, Denon S920W, Philips BDP7501, NVidia Shield TV, PS4 Pro, SI 110"

Last edited by elmalloc; 11-25-2019 at 12:19 PM.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elmalloc View Post
I have an Epson G7500U (faux-K) projector I use outside (from 30ft away it projects a 21ftx9ft 2.35 image).
  • It has 6500 lumens.
  • It's almost winter now and I would like to try to use it indoors, mainly for night time viewing because the room has windows, a lot of light penetration and white walls.
  • If I can get it to work for some daytime viewing that would be a bonus. I'm not open to painting the front wall or ceiling dark in this room.
  • Throw ratio will be 1.1 (15.5 ft distance / 14 ft width).

What screen material do you suggest for no moire?

Thanks,
ELmO
Have you decided on what size the screen will be and what format?
I see the G7500U has options for multiple lenses, which one is being used?

It's relevant to determine the size and format of the screen in order to estimate the brightness.
Could not find any reviews with the actual lumens output depending on preset, lamp, zoom, etc.


This might be useful:
https://www.projectorcentral.com/Eps...ulator-pro.htm

This projector being bright the fabric with the lowest gain should be looked at, Matte grey with 0.59 gain. But that might be too much gain as well. A ND filter can be used to reduce the brightness even further.

Calculate the square footage of the screen and divide it by the lumens. The lumens are for the format of the projected image, not the screen. If the screen is 2.4:1 and the projected image is 16:10, the square footage is for the latter.
https://www.calculatorsoup.com/calcu...calculator.php

Samples can be ordered to make sure the moire effect is not present.

What is the type of Carl's fabric used? Does it have a moire effect?

This webiste for calculations for different formats:
https://www.draperinc.com/projection...alculator.aspx


For general information regarding use in daytime:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-di...l#post58810778

You could get some blinds to cover the windows.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dominic Chan View Post
I received the sample kit and measured the gains of each material. The gain measurements are correct in relative terms, but the values are assuming 1.0 for the white paper. The R,G,B percentages are relative to the 1.3 gain raw material, as that's what I calibrated my projector to.

Material; Gain; R,G,B percentages
Walmart Pen Gear 92 White Paper: 1.00 (reference) 101, 100, 101
1.3 Raw Material: 1.11 100, 100, 100 (reference)
1.1 Matte white: 0.99 98, 100, 101
1.0 Matte grey: 0.59 95, 100, 106
0.95 High Contrast Grey: 0.67 101, 100, 98
1.5 Silver Glossy Side 1.03 99, 100, 102
1.5 Silver Matte Side: 0.66 99, 100, 102
1.1 Woven Acoustic WAB: 0.74 98, 100, 101

Not surprisingly, the measured gains are less than the rated values, some significantly so. The worst one is the Silver material - 0.66 vs 1.5 for the matte side which supposedly is the front.
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post #1799 of 1800 Old 11-25-2019, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
Have you decided on what size the screen will be and what format?
I see the G7500U has options for multiple lenses, which one is being used?

It's relevant to determine the size and format of the screen in order to estimate the brightness.
Could not find any reviews with the actual lumens output depending on preset, lamp, zoom, etc.


This might be useful:
https://www.projectorcentral.com/Eps...ulator-pro.htm

This projector being bright the fabric with the lowest gain should be looked at, Matte grey with 0.59 gain. But that might be too much gain as well. A ND filter can be used to reduce the brightness even further.

Calculate the square footage of the screen and divide it by the lumens. The lumens are for the format of the projected image, not the screen. If the screen is 2.4:1 and the projected image is 16:10, the square footage is for the latter.
https://www.calculatorsoup.com/calcu...calculator.php

Samples can be ordered to make sure the moire effect is not present.

What is the type of Carl's fabric used? Does it have a moire effect?

This webiste for calculations for different formats:
https://www.draperinc.com/projection...alculator.aspx


For general information regarding use in daytime:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-di...l#post58810778

You could get some blinds to cover the windows.
I'm looking at 2.35 AR, at least 12ft wide. It looks like silver ticket stops around there. I had a sim2 with A-lens doing 14ft from the same location and it "worked" but it was nowhere near as bright as this Epson, so I think I can get the Epson to do so with the right lens.

From what I understand the lens won't have a major affect on the lumens output, it probably has plenty to spare. I currently use the standard lens which can only get 10ft wide from current location, will have to spend about $1800 for Epson's shorter throw lens to get a 14ft wide image from 15ft away.

The project image will be 16:10 with the epson, when using outside it worked very well because it just projected into pitch darkness. Inside, it will be hitting a white wall for the "black bars".

The largest silver ticket 2.35 is their 153" wide, which is roughly 100 square feet on 16x10. Do you mean lumens / square foot (instead of other way?). 6500 / 100 = 650.

I am using Carl's FlexiWhite outside and I see no moire, but I'm sitting 30ft away from it. The image looked perfect, better than anything I had ever set up inside, which was st range, but I think it has to do with outdoors being the perfect pitch black environment. My home gym in the basement used to be my small theater room and I painted the ceiling black, used black velvet on the front wall, and the image was very nice.

I think no projector really wants to deal with any ambient light, unfortunately.

You are not any type of noob that I have met.

IN PROGRESS - Outdoor Theater:
Epson G7500U, Carl's Place CIH 21ft wide x 9ft screen

Game room:
Epson 5040UBE, Denon S920W, Philips BDP7501, NVidia Shield TV, PS4 Pro, SI 110"

Last edited by elmalloc; 11-25-2019 at 02:34 PM.
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post #1800 of 1800 Old 11-25-2019, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elmalloc View Post
I'm looking at 2.35 AR, at least 12ft wide. It looks like silver ticket stops around there. I had a sim2 with A-lens doing 14ft from the same location and it "worked" but it was nowhere near as bright as this Epson, so I think I can get the Epson to do so with the right lens.

From what I understand the lens won't have a major affect on the lumens output, it probably has plenty to spare. I currently use the standard lens which can only get 10ft wide from current location, will have to spend about $1800 for Epson's shorter throw lens to get a 14ft wide image from 15ft away.

The project image will be 16:10 with the epson, when using outside it worked very well because it just projected into pitch darkness. Inside, it will be hitting a white wall for the "black bars".

The largest silver ticket 2.35 is their 153" wide, which is roughly 100 square feet on 16x10. Do you mean lumens / square foot (instead of other way?). 6500 / 100 = 650.

I am using Carl's FlexiWhite outside and I see no moire, but I'm sitting 30ft away from it. The image looked perfect, better than anything I had ever set up inside, which was st range, but I think it has to do with outdoors being the perfect pitch black environment. My home gym in the basement used to be my small theater room and I painted the ceiling black, used black velvet on the front wall, and the image was very nice.

I think no projector really wants to deal with any ambient light, unfortunately.

You are not any type of noob that I have met.
Yes, divide the lumens by the square footage.
It does not matter the format of the screen, the square footage calculated is that of the projected image (16:10 or otherwise).

Then adjust for fabric gain.
If a fabric has 0.59 gain for example, and the resulted fL is 110, 110x0.59=64.9fL
15fL is recommended for SDR, 30+fL for HDR.

A zoom lens is different from a lens that changes the format of the image (i.e. from 16:10 to 2.35:1).
The brightness with a zoom lens will decrease because the projected image is larger. Or at least that's how it works with regular zoom on projectors. If the projector remains in the same position and the zoom is used to create a larger image the brightness decreases.
@b curry had some insight about this subject on another thread.


One issue here is determining what the lumens is for that projector.
This what the actual lumens are for a Epson 3LCD (HC3700) rated at 3000lm are:


Lamps dim with time.
The G7500U is rated at 6500lm.
If you have a luxmeter or colorimenter, or a luxmeter app on a phone, the lumens can be measured with that, although I have not done it.

For example, a 16"10 projected image with a width of 144" (12ft) has 90 ft².
With Cinema on Eco lamp (lowest lumens output) plus whatever age the lamp has could result could be~3000lm. 3000/90=33.33fL
With a 1.0 gain screen. With a 0.59 gain screen that would be 19.66fL.

An ND filter could be used to lower the lumens.

As in the thread linked above regarding projector use in ambient light, a grey screen would also reflect less light around the room which will improve black levels and contrast.
An ND filter reduces the brightness at the lens.

Options would be:

White screen with ND filter.

Grey screen. With ND filter?.

Paints. The wall could be painted, or some other surface that does not have to be a screen. Paints are also cheaper, can have ALR properties that will help with the white walls, and can be darker than the ST options above (even the 0.59 fabric).
The subforum where this is discussed.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/110-diy-screen-section/

I'm not too familiar with screen brands of this size, but there a cinema hall screen manufacturer that could accommodate whatever screen is required: Harkness Screens (UK) (link). You have to send them an email to get an update list of fabrics, but when I got it a few years ago they had a 0.2 and 0.3 gain screens.
There seems to be a US outlet as well. They do send samples.
https://www.av-iq.com/avcat/ctl1642/...rkness-screens

You may also want to make a separate thread on the screens subforum:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/23-screens/


So depending on what size screen is possible, the fabric/paint would have to be chosen. The brightness is an important factor. An ND filter can be used if the fabric has too much gain (i.e. 1.0 or 0.59). With a gain of 0.3 an ND filter might not be required.

LE: A grey fabric would help with wall reflections, but a 0.2 might be too dim. So a combination of a 0.7 gain and a ND filter could work. It really depends on the brightness of the projector.
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Last edited by noob00224; 11-25-2019 at 04:33 PM.
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