Screen choice. ALR, Grey, White sample evaluation - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 20 Old 03-13-2016, 12:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Screen choice. ALR, Grey, White sample evaluation

I don't remember any evaluations of the the combination of materials I was considering posted, so thought I could contribute something others might find useful.

From all my reading on avsforum (thanks for the copious amounts of useful posts), I concluded that ALR screens have a place even for night time watching if one has light colored walls/floors (essentially ambient levels caused by reflections of screen emissions) or if one wanted to watch with some lights on. My use case fits this scenario perfectly. While not ALR, I was curious about the Neve material and some of the grey screens. This comparison however mostly focuses on the Firehawk: I wanted to see if the sample would show any sparkles, my biggest worry with the Firehawk. The Epson 5030UB is projecting from 18ft away, ceiling mounted (right side up) onto a 120" 16:9 size with a viewing distance of 10-11ft.

The one maybe-conclusion regarding the Firehawk sparkles from the various threads was that the sparkles were still noticeable when the projector was either too bright and/or when the camera panned to bright scenes. While the G4 is supposed to be much better in this regard, folks notice sparklies with the latest gen as well (atleast purchased as of May 15). The other maybe-conclusion is that while not everyone sees them, they do happen and one just learns to ignore it appreciating the other fine qualities it brings to the table. I am cautiously happy to say that even with the brightest mode on the Epson 5030, I do not see any sparkles on the sample and some casual viewing of Avatar and Speedracer did not show any up either. Whether a full sized screen shows any up or not still remains to be seen but so far so good.

The Accucal report had me curious about the Cinegrey 5D material so I ordered a sample from Amazon. Some posters claim that it is very similar to the Firehawk G4 but did not include any images, so I wanted to see it side by side and see how close Elite was to Stewart. Since I know at least one person replacing his Firehawk with the Greyhawk (to get rid of the sparklies in a night-only scenario) and other posters who decided that a Tiburon was a better choice since it did not display the sparklies that the Firehawk had, those two samples entered the equation as well.

I finally ended up with samples for Neve, Cinegrey 5D, Firehawk G4, Greyhawk RS G4, Tiburon. Stewart samples were sent by Craig Peer from AVS. My goals were to see what the ALR stuff can really do and if the ALR samples show sparklies and whether they could be controlled by the brightness setting of the projector (if I was even sensitive to them in the first place). I know that a full-screen adds a whole bunch of extra light pollution affecting the outcomes (primarily the extent of ALR). However, I am hoping that the samples are representative and scale to the full screen where sparklies are concerned.

In projecting onto a wall that also held my Samsung PN64F8500 plasma, I also inadvertently added an ultra dark screen with a reflective glass surface:-) to the mix.

My conclusion is that for side-light conditions, both Cinegrey5D and Firehawk G4 do a superb ALR job. The Cinegrey 5D is brighter because of it's higher gain but also seems to have a worse falloff compared to the Firehawk. However, at the size of the samples, they seem remarkably similar as far as ALR goes and very close in other aspects.

The recent projector central ALR review provides what looks to be a very lukewarm view of the Firehawk. If I had read that first, I might not have considered the Firehawk as plan A. However, the review also states that the noticeable grain on the BD and Firehawk are similar which seems to go against a lot of anecdotes on avsforum (and my experience): I am treating that as a somewhat weak data-point. The review does not provide any pictures to put the words and numbers into context making it problematic. Not having seen the other materials they are comparing except the BD at a dealer (which looked pretty bad I thought), I do not have a good overall picture yet. The Firewhawk and Cinegrey5D work pretty well for my lighting. Once the full screen is setup, I need to see to what extent the Firehawk's alleged poor overhead rejection affects the picture. Since I have a white ceiling, that does seem to be a consideration (especially considering the folk that see great improvements by darkening the ceiling for a few feet in front of the screen).

I think Firehawk G4 vs Cinegrey 5D comes down to factors other than the ALR performance at which they seem very similar (at least at the scale of A4 sized samples). Things like initial quality, longevity, support skew this equation toward Stewart unless budget is prioritized over time and hassles. The images I am posting were not intended for posting but I am doing it anyways since I think they'll be of some help to others in my position.

Album with larger pictures. These are subject to some image degradation because of picasa but are more useful IMO (especially when seen as a slideshow with the black background) compared to the smaller sizes embedded below.

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Last edited by joove; 03-14-2016 at 10:11 AM. Reason: Added link to picasa album
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post #2 of 20 Old 03-13-2016, 12:42 AM - Thread Starter
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The samples lined up. From left-to-right on my greenish blue wall. The plasma serves as a super-dark/super-reflective screen. Projector is almost head-on. These were taken late at night with no external light coming in. I am using frames from the Speedracer bluray for comparison. The noise from the D800 introduces some extra gain but does not distract IMO.
  • Cima Neve
  • Cinegrey 5D
  • Firehawk G4
  • Greyhawk RS G4
  • Cima Tiburon

The samples

All samples are labeled except for the Cinegrey 5D




No Lights turned on

Here, the ALR screens are maintaining better blacks and are slightly darker but the others are doing very well. My wall is doing a great job surprisingly as is the plasma.




Kitchen Lights on

This is where the ALR screens come into their own. The Neve is somewhat washed out and the grey screens are not any better. The ALRs are doing great. While the Firehawk and the Cinegrey maintain great blacks, The additional gain of the Cinegrey is noticeable.




This image shows what the ALRs can do for the blacks. It is absolutely remarkable. However, the others samples are not looking horrible. This needs an additional experiment to see how much the other screen samples contribute to the overall ambient and how much that ambient light overpowers the ALR capabilities of the various materials.



Kitchen Lights Plus Right flootstander

This is a contrived situation. I don't know why I would turn the floor standing lights on. However, since I had them, turned them on just for kicks. Once again amazed at what the ALR screens are able to do. The Neve and the greys are unwatchable.




Kitchen Lights Plus Right and Left Floorstanders

Contrived torture test to be sure but the response from the ALRs is stunning. The other samples are hopeless at this point.



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Last edited by joove; 03-13-2016 at 07:21 PM. Reason: Correcting image links
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post #3 of 20 Old 03-13-2016, 12:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Head On Control Image

The Cinegrey5D is brighter




45 Degrees to the right (from my kitchen)

The Cinegrey now is as dark as the Firehawk which means it is losing brightness faster (expected given it's higher gain). Not significant given how similar it is to the Firehawk in other respects.



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Last edited by joove; 03-13-2016 at 01:10 AM.
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post #4 of 20 Old 03-13-2016, 04:29 AM
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Interesting!

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post #5 of 20 Old 03-13-2016, 06:22 AM
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Did you read thru this thread.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/23-scr...on-review.html

Some great thoughts in there on the subject.

You have screen samples of different gains you are trying to compare all at the same time with a set brightness. Your ambient light is being produced by the projector bouncing light off a screen that is not there. Each material will make a different level of ambient.

Lastly you have your projector ceiling mounted but right side up?

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post #6 of 20 Old 03-13-2016, 04:34 PM
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Nice pictures. Did you already purchase the Firehawk? Based on how far away you are sitting and how many lumens you are outputting will determing the amount of sparkles you may or may not see. However, like yous said, the benefit for a lot of ALR screens is the benefits outweigh the negatives.
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post #7 of 20 Old 03-13-2016, 07:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post
Did you read thru this thread.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/23-scr...on-review.html

Some great thoughts in there on the subject.

You have screen samples of different gains you are trying to compare all at the same time with a set brightness. Your ambient light is being produced by the projector bouncing light off a screen that is not there. Each material will make a different level of ambient.
Thanks for the points you raise. Yes, I read through that report. It has a lot of information and is quite useful. Alas, no pictures, lots of words and still not enough for me to base a nearly 4k purchase on it. I don't have the ability to compare full sized screens so I value reports that provide me actionable outcomes: nearly 4k worth of non returnable stuff depends on it. The comments in the thread about the super-bright light used (which can cause severe sparklies and skew the grouping) and grouping the BD and Firehawk together in terms of observed grain make me question his conclusions. It is however a great report to learn about which ALR samples to evaluate and what to watch out for.

You make a lot of very valid points. In spite of using mixed gain materials, I think my testing still makes sense. The fact that I commented on the brightness of the Cinegrey5D vs Firehawk is an aside and not relevant to my main point. The major point was that at a given projector brightness (suited to nigh-time lights-off viewing), adding extra transient ambient light particular to my setup allowed me to form some discriminating opinions among some screen choices. The Neve's presence was unfair in my comparison (just want to see what a white screen angular reflective would look like) and there really was no place for anything other than the ALRs. The Greys were there just so I can use the Greyhawk/Tiburon as a control surface for the sparklies when compared with the Firehawk.

Your point about matching projector brightness setting to the gain is also very valid. In my case however, it was more of transient ambient lighting GIVEN a projector brightness. A brighter projector will also results in brighter secondary reflections so needs a darkened room, not an option for me. I wanted a screen which would allow me to keep my room as-is and which would not be hopeless in transient ambient lighting. I am not even evaluating these with daylight, just nightime viewing with light pollution from secondary screen reflections and misc-lights. I cannot evaluate screen emission effects without a full screen so am stuck with extrapolating from the samples. The projectorcentral ALR review says that the Firehawk is weak when it comes to overhead reflections and for that I think I can cook something up (DIY motorized overhead shade) if it becomes an issue. As of now, my comparisons make me much more comfortable with the Firehawk choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post
Lastly you have your projector ceiling mounted but right side up?
Yeah. Currently simulating it by keeping the projector on top of a platform but it will be seated in a box attached to the ceiling without any suspended ceiling mount (which would make it upside down). The Epson 5030's cooling noise is reportedly much lowered when it is right side up so I am going that way from the start. Not particularly relevant to the point of this post but I thought I'd mention it for completeness.

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Last edited by joove; 03-13-2016 at 07:17 PM.
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post #8 of 20 Old 03-13-2016, 07:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ch1sox View Post
Nice pictures. Did you already purchase the Firehawk? Based on how far away you are sitting and how many lumens you are outputting will determing the amount of sparkles you may or may not see. However, like yous said, the benefit for a lot of ALR screens is the benefits outweigh the negatives.
Good to know. The one thing I had gathered from the various posts was that the Firehawk sparklies were definitely correlated with projector brightness. Distance could be a factor but wasn't sure. In any case, I had to see it for myself and even then there is still the question of what a full-sized screen will look like. I have currently not seen the sparklies so not sure if the benefits outweight the negatives yet

And no, have not purchased a Firehawk yet but am considering acquiring a G4 from a local seller who is selling it because his setup shows up too many sparklies for him: he has switched to the Greyhawk. His expense just goes to show how costly these decisions can be when all you have to go by are these tiny samples (and he did buy his screen after evaluating samples). His troubles are also the reason why I wanted the Tiburon/Greyhawk to act as a control against a Firehawk sample when evaluating sparklies. I simply had to see them all together and then play with the projector in various brightness settings to try to induce sparklies and then dial the brightness down from there. So far however, the Firehawk G4 samples do not exhibit any sparklies. Maybe because my epson is mounted way back and loses quite a bit of brightness even in torch mode or maybe I am just not using the right content and a full screen is where I start seeing the problems However, I am cautiously optimistic that the Firehawk will do well in my setup

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Last edited by joove; 03-13-2016 at 07:16 PM.
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post #9 of 20 Old 03-13-2016, 08:10 PM
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Hi Jove,
Thank you for considering Stewart Filmscreen. I would just like to mention that more recently, the FireHawk gain coating has been slightly reformulated to reduce the sparkles that have been noted from some past observers. With that said, I am not sure how old the samples are from the AVS sample stock.
Anyway, thank you for posting the pictures.

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post #10 of 20 Old 03-13-2016, 10:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for that info Don and for chiming in. I have no idea how old the samples are, did not even occur to me to ask Craig. Are you able to share when this reformulation occurred or what steps one might take to mitigate the sparkles in a pre-reformulated G4 screen ?

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post #11 of 20 Old 03-14-2016, 08:12 AM
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This was really nice for both the written information and the picture comparison.

If you are really liking the 5D and would be interested in a material-only version (where you either build or buy a frame), the Designer Cut Series Cinegrey 5D is available through a few different places up to 135"-16:9 for about $180.
The Carls ALR material may also be worth a look for a similar price/material-only, but I suspect the 5D and FireHawk are both a little brighter off-axis and a bit less aggressive which is likely better for your situation that's mostly dealing with reflections instead of a major daylight problem.
Great to hear the Stewart has been continually improved. They're both looking pretty great up on the wall as samples, especially with the kitchen light.

Thanks for the side-by-side comparison and thorough explanation of what you're seeing.

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
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post #12 of 20 Old 03-19-2016, 04:45 AM
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would you post more pictures of them at lights off please?
Would like to see how they look with more contents straight and in 30 or 45 degrees angle

I am leaning toward Cinegrey 5D and Grayhwak because my interest is only to fight bright walls and ceiling, not windows light.
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post #13 of 20 Old 03-30-2016, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Stewart View Post
I would just like to mention that more recently, the FireHawk gain coating has been slightly reformulated to reduce the sparkles that have been noted from some past observers.
Are Firehawk LS and Firehawk G4 the same material? Some comments online say that LS has a high polarization extinction ratio, but G3/G4 does not. Other comments say they are identical in every way. Maybe LS was different in the past?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyxle View Post
Are Firehawk LS and Firehawk G4 the same material? Some comments online say that LS has a high polarization extinction ratio, but G3/G4 does not. Other comments say they are identical in every way. Maybe LS was different in the past?
The FireHawk LS (LS stands for Large Screen) is manufactured using a different process than the FireHawk G4. The LS manufacturing allows us to make a completely seamless one piece screen up to 40 X 90 feet for large venues. The FireHawk G4 is manufactured 106" high by approximately 300 feet long which is normally used for smaller screen sizes. The LS does have a higher polarization extinction ratio but normally not sold for passive 3D. When passive 3D is required, we normally recommend our Silver 300 which has a much higher extinction ratio..

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The LS does have a higher polarization extinction ratio but normally not sold for passive 3D.
Thanks Don. Are the other optical properties the same between G4 and LS? Base color, gain, hotspotting, etc.
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post #16 of 20 Old 03-30-2016, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyxle View Post
Thanks Don. Are the other optical properties the same between G4 and LS? Base color, gain, hotspotting, etc.
They are pretty much the same with the exception that we normally run the LS with a little higher gain, 1.2 to 1.3, because the screen is being used in a
larger venue. The color base is the same. The most important issue when using FH, or any other angular reflective ALR screen for that matter, is to provide plenty of throw distance between screen and PJ. With the FH, we recommend a minimum of 1.6 X screen width. Personally, I prefer at least 1.8 or more to minimize hot spotting and have decent white field uniformity. Hope that helps.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by joove View Post
And no, have not purchased a Firehawk yet but am considering acquiring a G4 from a local seller who is selling it because his setup shows up too many sparklies for him: he has switched to the Greyhawk.
So which screen did you end up going with and are you happy with it?
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Going by the OP's results, the grey screen sample's performance was sub average. Why am I not surprised?
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post #19 of 20 Old 02-05-2018, 04:15 PM
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Going by the OP's results, the grey screen sample's performance was sub average. Why am I not surprised?
I think you are not surprised because you hate gray screens and the OP was testing 5 samples at once all with the same illumination. It is virtually impossible to do that with any different results.

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post #20 of 20 Old 06-20-2020, 11:58 AM - Thread Starter
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So which screen did you end up going with and are you happy with it?
Hah, 2 years late! Came back to update a classified for a projector lift and saw this.

Decided to control lighting instead of special fabrics. Ordered a Stewart Cima AC Tiburon, issues with the material supply resulted in a happy conclusion: don sending us the Cima BC with greyhawk material instead (uncoated it said, so not sure how different it is from proper greyhawk). So far, two years in, super happy with the material and the mechanism. Angular viewing is great (45 degrees off atleast). The screen lights up the ceiling quite a bit but it simply does not affect the picture (I wonder if the blackdrop helps deal with ceiling scatter or simply improves perceived contrast at the top). Screen simply disappears when and we can focus completely on the movie. I am amazed how comparable the picture is to my plasma. All in all super happy.

I ordered the BC version as I wanted the case open at the bottom. I have it mounted between the joists and closed up the bottom with drywall so only the screen comes through. Still have to finish it by attaching a thin light thing (painted/textured to match the ceiling) to the bottom of the screen so it closes up the slot in the drywall.

Don Stewart was absolutely wonderful to work with. Stewart will be the first choice if I need another screen.
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