Which screen for Epson 5040ube in non-light controlled room, Elite Cinegrey 5D? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 29 Old 02-11-2017, 10:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Which screen for Epson 5040ube in non-light controlled room, Elite Cinegrey 5D?

New Epson 5040ube projector. Need screen. I want to do 135". (I did the thing with projecting on the wall first.)

Doing an electric drop-down, and looking at Elite tab-tensioned for the price. I just need to decide on the screen material,
white vs. ALR since it is not a light controlled room. I'm looking at the Starling Tab-tensioned 2 w/ Cinegrey 5D ALR.

Side note, I will be doing active 3D with it. The specs for Cinegrey 5D say it works for active 3D (and passive for that
matter).

It's a living room. Painting dark is not an option. I'm not going for full theater immersion experience with total darkeness, I just want a big and bright screen.

Room is 22' long x 14' wide x 8' tall. The screen will end up about 2 ft. in front of the wall. Throw dist between 14' (min based on Elite recommendation for 5D w/ 135" screen) and 18' (as far back as I can physically go).

Primary viewing distance will be 16', and about 3' to either side of the projector itself. Though if I have
guests, viewing distance could be anywhere from about 10' to 20 ft. With the room 14' wide, will everyone still be within the viewing cone of the Cinegrey 5D even if somebody is sitting on the side of room and closer to the screen?

Probably 70/30 TV to movie viewing. I would like to be able to watch TV during the day without having to close the blinds, and be able to watch TV at night with the room lights on. But if I were going to settle in and watch a movie at night, then the room lights will be off.

Attached are pics of the room, using the projector on the wall, showing various scenes in various lighting. (Projector w/
out of the box settings.)

Am I on the right track with the 5D? Though, am I still expecting too much out of it to be able to watch in the daytime or with room lights on?

Thank you!!
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post #2 of 29 Old 02-11-2017, 02:19 PM
 
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Elite Screens build quality is garbage. I would call Dark Energy Screens for a quote. I think they are the best value in the alr market right now.
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post #3 of 29 Old 02-12-2017, 11:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Follow up thought I had after my original post above. I don't have to mount the projector at 18'. That's just the max dist at which I can mount it. Based on the Elite recommendations for the Cinegrey 5D, the minimum dist should be 1.5 x screen width, which would be 14.6' for a 135" 16:9 screen. So I can mount anywhere between the 14.6' and 18'.

For brightness, I know from what I've read that there is less brightness the farther out in zoom, but also of course less brightness the farther the projector is from the screen.

Am I better off mounting it closer to the screen (maybe at the 14.6' minimum) and having to zoom out more, or better to mount at the 18' and zoom less? How does potential hotspotting with the Cinegrey 5D screen affect that? Should I mount at 18' regardless to have less hotspotting?

Thanks again!
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post #4 of 29 Old 02-13-2017, 09:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Edited original post to just basics. Hoping a shorter read may get more people to read and respond. Thanks!
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post #5 of 29 Old 02-13-2017, 11:15 AM
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I just went through something similar and posted my findings here.
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post #6 of 29 Old 02-20-2017, 07:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clhug View Post
Follow up thought I had after my original post above. I don't have to mount the projector at 18'. That's just the max dist at which I can mount it. Based on the Elite recommendations for the Cinegrey 5D, the minimum dist should be 1.5 x screen width, which would be 14.6' for a 135" 16:9 screen. So I can mount anywhere between the 14.6' and 18'.

For brightness, I know from what I've read that there is less brightness the farther out in zoom, but also of course less brightness the farther the projector is from the screen.

Am I better off mounting it closer to the screen (maybe at the 14.6' minimum) and having to zoom out more, or better to mount at the 18' and zoom less? How does potential hotspotting with the Cinegrey 5D screen affect that? Should I mount at 18' regardless to have less hotspotting?

Thanks again!
@clhug For this application, are you 100% doing motorized retractable, or are you also considering fixed frame?

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post #7 of 29 Old 02-20-2017, 07:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by JayNYC View Post
@clhug For this application, are you 100% doing motorized retractable, or are you also considering fixed frame?
Retractable only. It's not a dedicated theater room. I need to be able to put the screen up and still have some semblance of a normal living room when doing other activities. I did debate between manual or electric, mostly based on cost, but the elite electrics are within my budget.

Once I decided on retractable, I essentially locked into Elite due to price based on a lot of other threads I've read about people being generally happy with them for the price.

This post was really more about asking advice on the screen material, whether to go for the ALR or if I should still consider a white screen for my environment.

At this point, the Elite Starling Tab-Tension 2 Cinegrey 5D has been ordered and should be here later this week or early next week. I'll definitely post my impressions and pics once I get it installed.

Side note, if you have advice on where to mount the projector per my secondary post, I'd very much like to hear that. Otherwise I plan to experiment as best as I can once the screen is mounted, and without actually permanently mounting the projector (I don't want to drill a bunch of holes in the ceiling to try different positions).

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I've got the 540UBE and just put up a 135" Elite fixed screen with the Cinegrey3D material. This is in a dedicated HT room, but I did do some testing with the lights on and light from windows. I don't think there is any way you'd be satisfied with a white screen in a non light controlled room. The blacks are just totally washed out at 135". Before the Elite screen I tried a painted wall using my own 'cream and sugar' style paint formula that has more silver in it. This resulted in a fairly grey screen with a bit of gain. A little bit sparkly though. It yielded watchable results with some light in the room but I couldn't live with the defects from rolling the paint, and it had too much 'grain'.


The Cinegrey3D seems to have about the same black levels under ambient light and gain, but the finish is far superior to paint of course. So there's no detectable grain. The ALR characteristics are moderate, so it seems to have a nice wide viewing angle while still reducing some ambient light. My projector is ceiling mounted at 14' from the screen 6" under an 8' ceiling. 14' is just under the minimum recommended distance, but it looks good to me at a 12' seating distance. At this distance the 5040 just fills the 135" screen at nearly full wide angle zoom. I may move the projector further back to reduce the audibility of the fan, and to reduce the zoom angle for better color convergence at the edges of the picture.


We watched the Superbowl with the lights on and the projector in full power mode, and it looked very good.
With the room fully darkened though I only use full power for 3D watching. For 2D the ECO mode is plenty bright.
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post #9 of 29 Old 02-24-2017, 03:44 PM - Thread Starter
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KayGee000 and Geraldius, thanks for your responses. I appreciate it. With lack of other response earlier, I went with my gut and ordered the Starling w/ Cinegrey 5D, and got it installed yesterday.

I like the physical aspects of the screen, easy to hang, seems well built, electric up and down, and remote control work well.

I'm not so impressed with the 5D. I'd go so far as to say that I wonder if somehow Elite manufactured the screen with the incorrect "Cinegrey" material and I somehow ended up with only 3D or even the base just plain "Cinegrey". (It's definitely a "gray" material, just not sure it's an extra reflective gray material. I initially wondered if I got shipped the wrong screen, like a Cinetension 2 with Cinegrey, but all other signs are that it is the correct model.)

Compared to what I've seen in so many other videos and pictures from other people of the 5D, essentially, I don't see that mine is doing much "light rejecting", or that the 1.5 gain is anywhere near that. It doesn't seem to be additionally reflective at all compared to just shining on my wall. It seems to be just as washed out as shining the picture on my wall under my ambient light situation. Even with very low light, the picture doesn't seem to "pop" like it appears to in other videos and pics I've seen.

I see no sign of hotspotting or sparkling that people have mentioned, no matter how close or far away I put the projector. I even tried shining a super bright LED flashlight on the screen up close to see if I could see any sparkles. The picture looks pretty much the same even viewing at extreme angles that I think would be outside of the viewing angle of the 5D material. (Basically all of the things I've read that I should see with ALR material, I don't see, which is what makes me wonder if it's the correct screen material.)

Now, if it's a nice and bright scene, the picture looks great even with the ambient light (though still not any better than just shining on the wall), but any time a dark scene like the attached pics come up it still appears washed out on the 5D.

These pics are with the projector on out of the box settings. I see that's medium for power consumption. Setting that to high helps some. I may end up running the projector in high all the time.

I've played with the projector at various distances and zoom levels and it doesn't seem to make a difference.

Am I missing something?
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That's a heck of a lot of ambient light you've got there, but I'd think the image would still be better than that. I just installed a Cinegrey 3D (1.2 gain) and I have my 5040 lamp set all the way down to Eco with brightness and contrast calibrated on Bright Cinema mode. But I have probably half the amount of ambient light that you have. In the photo I attached (sorry for the lack of quality, just snapped a quick iPhone pic), I have table lamps turned on, one on each side of the screen, the blinds on the right hand wall open, and ceiling lights on in the hallway which are directly in front of the left side of the screen. It's a bit lighter in the room than the photo makes it seem. Something definitely seems off with your screen. Could the screen material be facing the wrong way? Both sides of the Cinegrey material are grey but only one has the ALR coating. Or like you said, maybe it's just 1.0 gain Cinegrey, not 5D. Good luck, hope you get it resolved!
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post #11 of 29 Old 02-24-2017, 06:53 PM - Thread Starter
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That's a heck of a lot of ambient light you've got there, but I'd think the image would still be better than that. I just installed a Cinegrey 3D (1.2 gain) and I have my 5040 lamp set all the way down to Eco with brightness and contrast calibrated on Bright Cinema mode. But I have probably half the amount of ambient light that you have. In the photo I attached (sorry for the lack of quality, just snapped a quick iPhone pic), I have table lamps turned on, one on each side of the screen, the blinds on the right hand wall open, and ceiling lights on in the hallway which are directly in front of the left side of the screen. It's a bit lighter in the room than the photo makes it seem. Something definitely seems off with your screen. Could the screen material be facing the wrong way? Both sides of the Cinegrey material are grey but only one has the ALR coating. Or like you said, maybe it's just 1.0 gain Cinegrey, not 5D. Good luck, hope you get it resolved!
Yeah, your pic looks really nice. I know you said it's not really as dark as the pic looks, but I still see no real ambient light wash out on you pic.

HOLY CRAP, you might be right! I think the material might be backwards! I can't be 100% sure this isn't just psychological in my head because I want it to be that way, it's not glaring but appears to be noticeable. Turning off all light, and it's now night, so total darkness, and using that flashlight, it appears that the back of the screen is more reflective than the front. As I move the flashlight, or move my head in relation to the flashlight, there definitely appears to be a brighter spot that moves around with the flashlight/my head based on the reflection angle. I also think I see tiny pinpoint sparkles on the back under the flashlight light, randomly maybe 1 sparkle every 1 to 3 square inches, but I really don't see any on the front.

I wish I could take pictures to post with this for a 2nd opinion, but it's just too dim for the camera and won't turn out.

I suppose there's really no way to confirm this without taking the whole thing down, removing the brackets and installing them backwards. I really prefer not to remove and put back in the screws for loosening the screw grip on the wood. Not sure that it really would impact the grip, but it'd be 4 times out and back in by the time I remove the brackets to install backwards, then take them back down and install forward again for the final mounting.

Any other thoughts on how I could more easily and definitively determine if the material is backwards?
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Only thing I can think is to contact Elite and show them your photos. Maybe they can tell by looking at the photos. Or give you some tips to determine which side is the correct side. One thing you could try the way you have it installed now - darken the room and display a bright image. Look at the screen dead center and make a mental note of the brightness. Now step off to the side at like a 60 degree angle from center and look at the screen. It should be noticeably dimmer due to the angular reflective properties of the ALR material. If it's the same level of brightness when viewing off to the side, I'd say it's the wrong side of the screen.

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post #13 of 29 Old 02-24-2017, 10:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes, I had essentially done that last night when I first installed it, standing right behind the projector, moving around the room, sitting, standing, squatting, standing on a stool, and it looks to me to be the same no matter where I stand.

Anyone with the fixed screen Cinegrey 3D or 5D, you have to assemble the fixed screen, correct? How do you know which side is the correct side of the material in that case? Is it labeled or somehow otherwise indicated? Or is it obvious in looking at it based on things like reflectivity which side is which?
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The 3D screen is labeled on the back side. Also the material has a duller sheen from the ALR coating on the front side while the backside is more plasticy/shiny.

You need to also should understand that only ambient light from the sides will be diminished with an ALR screen. Light coming from the viewing direction will not be reduced.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geraldius View Post
The 3D screen is labeled on the back side. Also the material has a duller sheen from the ALR coating on the front side while the backside is more plasticy/shiny.

You need to also should understand that only ambient light from the sides will be diminished with an ALR screen. Light coming from the viewing direction will not be reduced.
Thanks for the info on the 3D. But the ALR viewing surface is duller and the back side is more shiny? That seems backwards to me. Shiny would indicate more reflective to me, and thus should be the front. Though if that's correct then it does probably mean that my screen is correct.

I will say, just looking at the front or back surface in normal light without the projector on I can't really see a difference between the front and back. It's only when I shine a bright flashlight up close that I appear to see a difference where the back looks more reflective, I'd even say "shiny", and I see a bit of sparkle on the back that I don't see on the front.

Yes, I understand ambient light from the sides vs viewing direction, but I my light is from the sides. I guess it depends on the angle. It's a few feet in front of the screen but off to the side. But using equal reflective angle rule it should reflect well out of my viewing angle from where the light source is.
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post #16 of 29 Old 02-25-2017, 04:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Okay, yep, I get it now. Back, shiny, bad. It reflects the ambient light much more pronounced than the duller front.

I had a friend come over and rather than totally flip the screen around, he just lifted the bottom of the screen (gently and with plenty of curve so as to not cause creases) in a U shape to expose the back of the screen to the front. It reflected the room light all over the place totally drowning out the projector picture. Like there was a layer of cellophane in front of the screen catching and reflecting all the ambient light.

So the screen isn't backwards, but I still wonder if I somehow ended up with regular Cinegrey and not 5D. I guess I'll contact Elite and see what they say. Maybe they have tests to determine for sure what it is.
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Okay, yep, I get it now. Back, shiny, bad. It reflects the ambient light much more pronounced than the duller front.

I had a friend come over and rather than totally flip the screen around, he just lifted the bottom of the screen (gently and with plenty of curve so as to not cause creases) in a U shape to expose the back of the screen to the front. It reflected the room light all over the place totally drowning out the projector picture. Like there was a layer of cellophane in front of the screen catching and reflecting all the ambient light.

So the screen isn't backwards, but I still wonder if I somehow ended up with regular Cinegrey and not 5D. I guess I'll contact Elite and see what they say. Maybe they have tests to determine for sure what it is.
If nothing else, you could order a sample of 5D material from Elite for $6 and compare with what you have. That'd tell you pretty quickly.

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If nothing else, you could order a sample of 5D material from Elite for $6 and compare with what you have. That'd tell you pretty quickly.
Better still, for $1 more, order the Sample Pack 3G that includes Cinegrey, Cinegrey 3D and Cinegrey 5D.

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I'm one of those incredibly satisfied customers with my Cinegrey 5d and Epson combo. My room is a living room and not light controlled. It's fairly dark when all the lights are off. I'm thrilled with how the 5d screen holds up even when all the lamps are on in the apartment. It's really great! Wife loves it too. Handles 3d awesome as well. High lamp is needed with 3D brightness setting set to "low" for best 3d experience with this epson.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by clhug View Post
KayGee000 and Geraldius, thanks for your responses. I appreciate it. With lack of other response earlier, I went with my gut and ordered the Starling w/ Cinegrey 5D, and got it installed yesterday.

I like the physical aspects of the screen, easy to hang, seems well built, electric up and down, and remote control work well.

I'm not so impressed with the 5D. I'd go so far as to say that I wonder if somehow Elite manufactured the screen with the incorrect "Cinegrey" material and I somehow ended up with only 3D or even the base just plain "Cinegrey". (It's definitely a "gray" material, just not sure it's an extra reflective gray material. I initially wondered if I got shipped the wrong screen, like a Cinetension 2 with Cinegrey, but all other signs are that it is the correct model.)

Compared to what I've seen in so many other videos and pictures from other people of the 5D, essentially, I don't see that mine is doing much "light rejecting", or that the 1.5 gain is anywhere near that. It doesn't seem to be additionally reflective at all compared to just shining on my wall. It seems to be just as washed out as shining the picture on my wall under my ambient light situation. Even with very low light, the picture doesn't seem to "pop" like it appears to in other videos and pics I've seen.

I see no sign of hotspotting or sparkling that people have mentioned, no matter how close or far away I put the projector. I even tried shining a super bright LED flashlight on the screen up close to see if I could see any sparkles. The picture looks pretty much the same even viewing at extreme angles that I think would be outside of the viewing angle of the 5D material. (Basically all of the things I've read that I should see with ALR material, I don't see, which is what makes me wonder if it's the correct screen material.)

Now, if it's a nice and bright scene, the picture looks great even with the ambient light (though still not any better than just shining on the wall), but any time a dark scene like the attached pics come up it still appears washed out on the 5D.

These pics are with the projector on out of the box settings. I see that's medium for power consumption. Setting that to high helps some. I may end up running the projector in high all the time.

I've played with the projector at various distances and zoom levels and it doesn't seem to make a difference.

Am I missing something?
I warned you about Elite Screens quality. Now you are seeing it for yourself.
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post #21 of 29 Old 03-13-2017, 06:02 PM
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This thread scares me. As I'm building an addition on my house, basically a family/media room, it will not be totally light controlled. I really want my first ever projector and screen but if I wind up with washed out pic, I'll be very unhappy. That's why I'm leaning toward an 85" flat panel instead. I realize it's no way the same impact of a 120" screen.

Decisions, decisions. And these type threads certainly don't make me lean toward projector.

One distance question. The room will be 23' x 23'. Only place to mount projector would be on rear wall, so approx 22' from screen. Is that just too far for a projector costing about $4k?
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post #22 of 29 Old 03-13-2017, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evan201 View Post
I'm one of those incredibly satisfied customers with my Cinegrey 5d and Epson combo. My room is a living room and not light controlled. It's fairly dark when all the lights are off. I'm thrilled with how the 5d screen holds up even when all the lamps are on in the apartment. It's really great! Wife loves it too. Handles 3d awesome as well. High lamp is needed with 3D brightness setting set to "low" for best 3d experience with this epson.

Here are some shots of HDR content via Amazon Video streaming from my Nvidia Shield TV and The Good Dino blu ray via Xbox One.
Are these with lights on or off?
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post #23 of 29 Old 03-13-2017, 07:02 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MDJAK View Post
This thread scares me. As I'm building an addition on my house, basically a family/media room, it will not be totally light controlled. I really want my first ever projector and screen but if I wind up with washed out pic, I'll be very unhappy. That's why I'm leaning toward an 85" flat panel instead. I realize it's no way the same impact of a 120" screen.

Decisions, decisions. And these type threads certainly don't make me lean toward projector.

One distance question. The room will be 23' x 23'. Only place to mount projector would be on rear wall, so approx 22' from screen. Is that just too far for a projector costing about $4k?
Not all projector setups have issues. Elite Screens is low end and puts out bad products.
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post #24 of 29 Old 03-13-2017, 09:21 PM
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Here's my setup with the Cinegrey 5D and Epson. Keep in mind these images are of UHD discs from a Philips player which tend to be a little darker than standard blu rays. Standard direct tv news stations are PLENTY bright with all the lights on.
MY main lamp is very bright and is at my 7 O'clock when taking these pics.
Here's the setup with the blinds at my 6 o'clock open right after work.

image hosting 30 mb

BLINDS CLOSED, LAMP ON
upload gif from url

LIGHTS OUT
free photo upload

LAMP ON
uploading pictures

LIGHTS OUT
photoupload
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post #25 of 29 Old 11-08-2017, 06:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evan201 View Post
Here's my setup with the Cinegrey 5D and Epson. Keep in mind these images are of UHD discs from a Philips player which tend to be a little darker than standard blu rays. Standard direct tv news stations are PLENTY bright with all the lights on.
MY main lamp is very bright and is at my 7 O'clock when taking these pics.
Here's the setup with the blinds at my 6 o'clock open right after work.

image hosting 30 mb

BLINDS CLOSED, LAMP ON
upload gif from url

LIGHTS OUT
free photo upload

LAMP ON
uploading pictures

LIGHTS OUT
photoupload
Can anyone tell me the difference between the Cinegrey 3d and 5d?
I have an Epson 7300 (Epson 4040UB)and i'm also interested in these screens;
Just a bit afraid of hot-spotting and of dull whites.. Anyone has experience on this?
My pj is ceiling mounted, lens is +- 10.3 feet away from the screen
I'm looking for a contrast boost primarily in dark conditions: lights out curtains closed;
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post #26 of 29 Old 11-09-2017, 03:07 AM
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Just think about some problem like Cramer86...
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post #27 of 29 Old 02-01-2020, 05:57 AM
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What came of this as I too am looking into the CG 5.
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post #28 of 29 Old 02-01-2020, 04:21 PM - Thread Starter
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What came of this as I too am looking into the CG 5.
I did end up getting a sample of the 5D material from Elite and confirmed the material in my screen is correct. I like the screen in all other respects, and with a bright scene, or at night when it's dark, then it's great. But I still think it washes out more with ambient light than what I see in other people's pictures of the 5D.
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post #29 of 29 Old 02-03-2020, 05:53 AM
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i ordered a 3D cinegrey and sent again to amazon after 1 hour. Good picture but gain is more likely 0.6 overall or 0.7 not 1.2 at all...brightness were very poor.
Will try the 5D and will see...these screens are not ALR 100% are more for white walls and reflections in a dark environment
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