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post #91 of 110 Old 02-01-2018, 09:57 AM
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@bud16415 will confirm all of this and explain it further if I've missed anything.
You did a good job. I was going to say something yesterday and I thought to myself this notion of making whites gray because the screen is gray how can it possibly make white, is so well into the mindset of everyone at this point I don’t think there is no amount of science that can be presented to change it. I rarely see a thread like this on the topic anymore. The sad part there are more and more brighter projectors with excellent specs these days. mainly because with the increased resolution people want bigger screens. I remember the days when 100” screen was viewed as huge at home. I always wanted a tee shirt printed that said “life begins at 100” inside a 16:9 rectangle. Now it is life begins at 150.

Neutral gray screens work ok in ambient light rooms but when you buy a screen they are .7-.8 gain not much out there as low as .4-.5 then people do a side by side with a piece of white screen material 1.1 and the gray looks dull most of the time the lumens being correct for the 1.1 as you mentioned.

In a light proof room with no light and dark walls the ambient is projector light reflecting back to the screen. if the wall is also .5 with slight sheen and the light hitting it is both absorbed and also rejected. And in that case only about one quarter of the light returns to the screen and instantly is half attenuated and now the bad ambient is only one eight. Then there is a second cycle of the light and you can see how rapidly it is extinguished. It is actually instantaneous as light travels at the speed of light.

I’m pretty happy with my .5 and the next projector will be an opportunity to go darker.
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post #92 of 110 Old 02-01-2018, 11:30 AM
 
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I think you're missing the total concept of <1.0 gain matte grey screens. They only work if you have sufficient projector lumens to properly illuminate them to the same foot-lambert level as a 1.0 gain matte white screen.

Let's take the case of a simple 1,000-lumen projector. If you project onto 1.0 gain matte white and 0.5 gain matte grey screens the image on the grey screen will obviously only be half as bright. But if you double projector lumens to 2,000 on the 0.5 gain matte grey screen the image will be equally as bright as 1,000 lumens on a 1.0 gain matte white screen.

So why bother? Because any ambient light in the room will have only half the negative effect on the 0.5 gain matte grey screen as on the 1.0 gain matte grey screen. Set the two screens side by side with 1,000 projector lumens hitting the white screen and 2,000 projector lumens hitting the grey screen and the same amount of ambient light will only cause half as much washout effect on the grey screen.

The simple principle of using higher projector lumens on a lower gain screen is that it increases the proportion of projector lumens to ambient light lumens resulting in less image washout. What so many people miss is that they either don't or can't increase projector lumens in the same proportion as the <1.0 gain screen reduces the amount of reflected image light.

@bud16415 will confirm all of this and explain it further if I've missed anything.
I have not missed anything. And I don't need further explanation from Bud. I fully understand the reasoning behind using grey screens but they are old, outdated technology. ALR screens have pretty much made grey screens obsolete unless you want to use a light cannon with zero blacks with a below gain grey screen. You could do it but why bother when you have a plethora of alr screens available today at affordable prices.

The only reason I can see using a grey screen today is if you have a problem with artifacts that come with using low end alr screens.

Not trying to sound like an ass, but I've owned more high-end,mid-level, and entry-level projectors and screens then almost everybody here. So I'm the last person that needs an explanation on using entry-level equipment.

Many people here theorize and read reviews all day but never get out and experience anything. At some point you do have to get out and start purchasing products and experiencing things for yourself not just living through samples, reviews or never having experienced anything beyond entry-level to mid-range equipment.

Materials such as the Elite Crooks Darkstar .9 or 1.4 gain material will crush any grey screen in terms of perceivable blacks. They can also be used with high-contrast lower lumen projectors which show a much better image then a grey screen plus office projector. And materials like the Darkstar have been around for years now.

But by all means either if you have a low budget or just enjoy living in the past get a below gain grey screen and a office projector light cannon and live it up if that's your way to get better blacks.

I'm not hating on either way. Two different means pursuing the same end goal.

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post #93 of 110 Old 02-01-2018, 01:32 PM
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@Lumens Lover, likewise not trying to sound like an ass. For the benefit of others reading this thread I was mainly correcting the misleading statement that grey non-ALR screens "kill the whites and devour brightness yet they wash out just as easily as a white screen in low levels of ambient light." That's only true if your projector isn't adjusted to or isn't capable of the correct lumen output to properly illuminate the screen.

I appreciate the fact that you have bought and sold a warehouse full of AV equipment and have strong opinions based on your personal experience and preferences. But for expertise on screen performance I rely more on what has been shared by @Don Stewart who has decades of experience as Stewart Filmscreen's chief technical officer. From everything I've ever seen stated by Mr. Stewart, <1.0 gain matte grey screens have fewer issues than any ALR screen. In fact the only issue a <1.0 gain matte grey screen has is that it requires more lumens to properly illuminate. ALR screens on the other hand have a variety of issues, the most obvious of which is reduced viewing cone.

As you noted in your last post, no screen is "best" for all environments and user preferences. In some cases an ALR screen might be more appropriate and in some cases a <1.0 gain matte grey screen might be better. But using a <1.0 gain matte grey screen is certainly not "living in the past." Just a few years ago the lowest gain matte grey screens offered by companies like Da-Lite and Draper were 0.8 gain. Today both offer darker matte grey screens with as low as 0.6 gain. This makes sense as projectors in general continue to get both brighter and more accurate.

Anyway it's always good to hear multiple opinions and compare the opinions to the science. Speaking of science, Don Stewart knows more about screen science than the rest of us combined. So quoting him from a post he made here two years ago is a good read for anyone who doubts the validity of <1.0 gain matte grey screens:

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Bud, you may appreciate this story because you are a proponent of low gain Lambertion gray screens. We at Stewart have had the honer to design, engineer and manufacture all of the Disney 360 Circle Vision theater screens and framing systems which are located at the Disney theme parks throughout the World. (See photo below) When we built the first system, we assembled it on a sound stage at the Disney Studios in Burbank. This nine segmented screen system was to be used for post production and sound editing only. Anyway, the screens that Disney specified and ordered for the mock up theater were Snomatte 100 lamberlion white diffusion screens. Well... you can guess what happened when they fired up the nine projectors for the first time. The theater looked like the inside of your refrigerator when you open its door. The 360 degree screen vista washed out the adjacent screens and cross reflected to the opposing screens on the other side of the theater. It was a mess and the studio brass were not to happy as a lot of money had already been spent on shooting the raw film footage. After some head scratching by both the Disney and Stewart teams the idea came up to engineer and produce a front projection ND gray screen. What initiated the ideal was Stewart and other screen manufactures had been producing dark gray contrast enhancing ND rear projection screens for decades. Why not do the same for front projection? So after a few weeks of intense R&D Disney approved a very dark gray, 0.4 gain FP screen surface. Since the 0.4 gain screens were not as efficient as the 1.0 Snowmatte 100 screens, Disney had to increase the lamp output by 250%. But they did not care as the project's success was riding on the gray screens. In fact, Disney engineers have a saying called the bigger hammer theory. " If the hammer in hand does work, then break out a bigger hammer" or something like that. In this case they broke out the sledge hammer. Also, the nine gray screens had to be lambertion with no gain coatings because with 200 or so viewers in the theater, each of the nine screens had to distribute the exact same luminance to each viewer no matter where they were positioned in the theater. To the best of my knowledge, these were the vary first commercial gray screens. It was around 1979 and I was a very young man at the time.
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post #94 of 110 Old 02-01-2018, 01:57 PM
 
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@Lumens Lover, likewise not trying to sound like an ass. For the benefit of others reading this thread I was mainly correcting the misleading statement that grey non-ALR screens "kill the whites and devour brightness yet they wash out just as easily as a white screen in low levels of ambient light." That's only true if your projector isn't adjusted to or isn't capable of the correct lumen output to properly illuminate the screen.

I appreciate the fact that you have bought and sold a warehouse full of AV equipment and have strong opinions based on your personal experience and preferences. But for expertise on screen performance I rely more on what has been shared by @Don Stewart who has decades of experience as Stewart Filmscreen's chief technical officer. From everything I've ever seen stated by Mr. Stewart, <1.0 gain matte grey screens have fewer issues than any ALR screen. In fact the only issue a <1.0 gain matte grey screen has is that it requires more lumens to properly illuminate. ALR screens on the other hand have a variety of issues, the most obvious of which is reduced viewing cone.

As you noted in your last post, no screen is "best" for all environments and user preferences. In some cases an ALR screen might be more appropriate and in some cases a <1.0 gain matte grey screen might be better. But using a <1.0 gain matte grey screen is certainly not "living in the past." Just a few years ago the lowest gain matte grey screens offered by companies like Da-Lite and Draper were 0.8 gain. Today both offer darker matte grey screens with as low as 0.6 gain. This makes sense as projectors in general continue to get both brighter and more accurate.

Anyway it's always good to hear multiple opinions and compare the opinions to the science. Speaking of science, Don Stewart knows more about screen science than the rest of us combined. So quoting him from a post he made here two years ago is a good read for anyone who doubts the validity of <1.0 gain matte grey screens:
I agree with your first paragraph. However the Don Stewart reference just goes back to what I always say here. People lean on the experience of others rather than learning and experiencing things for themselves.

This is not rocket science and I'm not going to propose it is. My second projector setup was a grey screens from Stewart paired with a Epson 3000 lumen office projector. The simple point being missed here is that you will have to have an office projector to properly light up a larger below gain grey screen. That limits your options to office projectors with low contrast and zero shadow detail. This will result in a inferior movie watching experience compared to using a high contrast home theater projector. It does not take an expert to figure this out.

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post #95 of 110 Old 02-01-2018, 01:59 PM
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I have not missed anything. And I don't need further explanation from Bud. I fully understand the reasoning behind using grey screens but they are old, outdated technology. ALR screens have pretty much made grey screens obsolete unless you want to use a light cannon with zero blacks with a below gain grey screen. You could do it but why bother when you have a plethora of alr screens available today at affordable prices.

The only reason I can see using a grey screen today is if you have a problem with artifacts that come with using low end alr screens.

Not trying to sound like an ass, but I've owned more high-end,mid-level, and entry-level projectors and screens then almost everybody here. So I'm the last person that needs an explanation on using entry-level equipment.

Many people here theorize and read reviews all day but never get out and experience anything. At some point you do have to get out and start purchasing products and experiencing things for yourself not just living through samples, reviews or never having experienced anything beyond entry-level to mid-range equipment.

Materials such as the Elite Crooks Darkstar .9 or 1.4 gain material will crush any grey screen in terms of perceivable blacks. They can also be used with high-contrast lower lumen projectors which show a much better image then a grey screen plus office projector. And materials like the Darkstar have been around for years now.

But by all means either if you have a low budget or just enjoy living in the past get a below gain grey screen and a office projector light cannon and live it up if that's your way to get better blacks.

I'm not hating on either way. Two different means pursuing the same end goal.
The most honest screen surface ever produced and made to work best in a perfect room is always going to be a perfect 1.0 gain Lambertian reflectance “white” screen, and it always will be just by the nature of what is Lambertian reflectance. Everything else is going to be compensating for less than perfection in the room. A less than 1.0 gain Lambertian reflectance surface will have every perfect quality the 1.0 has only with attenuation.

In the post Dave quoted you didn’t compare a great projector to a poor projector applied to two different types of screen. You went on to say you view the comparison with a carefully placed light being turned on that makes use of the ALR properties of one screen and not the other. Of course you can skew any comparison to show a desired result. The ALR screen people do it every day in their videos and trade show demonstrations. That doesn’t make it science. Try putting your ambient source under the projector and do your comparison where you amplify the ambient on the ALR screen and attenuate the ambient on the Lambertian reflectance < 1.0 gray screen. You will find just the opposite.

Selecting a projector, screen and a room no one is more important than the others. They all need to work in balance.

I don’t recall anyone suggesting replacing a high-end projector with a business projector and claiming better black levels in a proper home theater. But I could make a case for a bright business projector producing better blacks in an awful room with a Lambertian reflectance < 1.0 gray screen.

Your analogy about equipment is not logical. Would a guy that buys a new car every 3 months know more about cars than a guy that drives the same car for 5 years but reads car and driver faithfully along with every other auto related publication there is? Buying a lot of equipment means nothing IMO. Understanding the science behind something means everything.

@Dave in Green Thanks for the invite.

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post #96 of 110 Old 02-01-2018, 02:27 PM
 
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The most honest screen surface ever produced and made to work best in a perfect room is always going to be a perfect 1.0 gain Lambertian reflectance “white” screen, and it always will be just by the nature of what is Lambertian reflectance. Everything else is going to be compensating for less than perfection in the room. A less than 1.0 gain Lambertian reflectance surface will have every perfect quality the 1.0 has only with attenuation.

In the post Dave quoted you didn’t compare a great projector to a poor projector applied to two different types of screen. You went on to say you view the comparison with a carefully placed light being turned on that makes use of the ALR properties of one screen and not the other. Of course you can skew any comparison to show a desired result. The ALR screen people do it every day in their videos and trade show demonstrations. That doesn’t make it science. Try putting your ambient source under the projector and do your comparison where you amplify the ambient on the ALR screen and attenuate the ambient on the Lambertian reflectance < 1.0 gray screen. You will find just the opposite.

Selecting a projector, screen and a room no one is more important than the others. They all need to work in balance.

I don’t recall anyone suggesting replacing a high-end projector with a business projector and claiming better black levels in a proper home theater. But I could make a case for a bright business projector producing better blacks in an awful room with a Lambertian reflectance < 1.0 gray screen.

Your analogy about equipment is not logical. Would a guy that buys a new car every 3 months know more about cars than a guy that drives the same car for 5 years but reads car and driver faithfully along with every other auto related publication there is? Buying a lot of equipment means nothing IMO. Understanding the science behind something means everything.

@Dave in Green Thanks for the invite.
Would you let someone who's read through thousands of medical journals for over 20 years but no firsthand experience operate on you?

There are no high lumens, high contrast projectors available to the general public right now anywhere near $5,000 and below. So that means if you're going to be using a below gain, grey screen you are limited to using an entry-level projector with low contrast and inferior components or a business projector. When home theater projectors are available with 2,000 lumens or more in best picture modes then I can truly say you can use a grey screen with no compromise on image quality based on the projector used. Until we get to that point your options will be limited to entry-level projectors or business projectors which do not have the image quality of a higher end home theater projector.

Again I'm not just talking about black levels here. I'm talking about the overall movie watching experience. And your movie-watching experience will be discernibly inferior using an entry-level projector or business projector.

It does not matter what screen surface is used. With a below gain gray screen you are confined to only using projectors which are not optimized for the best home theater experience.

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post #97 of 110 Old 02-01-2018, 02:28 PM
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@LumensLover , we all rely on a combination of personal experience and the advice of others we trust to be fair and objective with minimal personal bias. Citing a specific scenario that favors one type of screen over another does nothing to prove that applies in all scenarios. When projectorcentral.com tested a dozen different ALR screens they found that each had a different balance of pros and cons and that none of them was optimum for all environments and preferences. It's the same for <1.0 gain matte grey screens. They have a different balance of pros and cons that works best in some scenarios but not others. There's no reason to trash the square peg that wouldn't fit into the round hole.
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@LumensLover , we all rely on a combination of personal experience and the advice of others we trust to be fair and objective with minimal personal bias. Citing a specific scenario that favors one type of screen over another does nothing to prove that applies in all scenarios. When projectorcentral.com tested a dozen different ALR screens they found that each had a different balance of pros and cons and that none of them was optimum for all environments and preferences. It's the same for <1.0 gain matte grey screens. They have a different balance of pros and cons that works best in some scenarios but not others. There's no reason to trash the square peg that wouldn't fit into the round hole.
I'm not trying to trash anyone Dave. My point is the type of projector that must be used to properly illuminate a below gain grey screen. This is where the biggest compromise lies. You're going to be giving up a lot of image quality when using a entry level projector or office projector when watching movies.
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post #99 of 110 Old 02-01-2018, 02:46 PM
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There are no high lumens, high contrast projectors available to the general public right now anywhere near $5,000 and below. So that means if you're going to be using a below gain, grey screen you are limited to using an entry-level projector with low contrast and inferior components or a business projector. When home theater projectors are available with 2,000 lumens or more in best picture modes then I can truly say you can use a grey screen with no compromise on image quality based on the projector used. Until we get to that point your options will be limited to entry-level projectors or business projectors which do not have the image quality of a higher end home theater projector.

Again I'm not just talking about black levels here. I'm talking about the overall movie watching experience. And your movie-watching experience will be discernibly inferior using an entry-level projector or business projector.

It does not matter what screen surface is used. With a below gain gray screen you are confined to only using projectors which are not optimized for the best home theater experience.
A 100” screen is 48x85 = 4080/144 = 28.3 sq foot x 15 FL = 425 lumens

Given a .5 gain neutral gray screen we need to double that 425x2 = 850 lumens

Are there any sub $5000 HT projectors out there with great CR’s that can output 850 lumens?

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A 100” screen is 48x85 = 4080/144 = 28.3 sq foot x 15 FL = 425 lumens

Given a .5 gain neutral gray screen we need to double that 425x2 = 850 lumens

Are there any sub $5000 HT projectors out there with great CR’s that can output 850 lumens?
This is why I stated larger below gain, grey screen in one of my previous posts. 120 inch screen has become today's standard. However if you are using a 100 inch screen then you'll be much better off using a white screen plus a high contrast projector.

I've had weak rooms with white walls for years. However there was easily a discernible difference in image quality and perceived black levels when using a higher contrast projector paired with a ALR screen/smaller grey screen versus when I was using high lumens entry level/business projectors plus 120"/130" grey screen set up in the same weak room.

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@LumensLover , I didn't suggest that you were trashing anyone. I was referring to dismissing <1.0 gain matte grey screens by presenting only a targeted negative scenario that didn't work for you. In the post above @bud16415 presents a counterpoint scenario based on math and science that shows how a specific setup with a <1.0 gain matte grey screen would work just fine. Square peg in square hole and round peg in round hole.

I recall a couple of years ago when you first started posting on the projectors forum that you were going back and forth on whether or not you could be satisfied with front projection because you wanted a really bright image with some ambient light in the room like a big TV. I remember making a lot of recommendations to you trying to help you make the right choice. At one time I recall saying that front projection is not for everyone and maybe someone with the handle of LumensLover might be disappointed with any front projection setup.

I'm glad that after buying and either returning or selling numerous projectors and screens that you finally found a combination that worked for you. It's likely that combination would also work for others with a viewing environment and personal preferences closely aligned with yours. But can you accept the fact that there are other options that can and have worked for others with different viewing environments and personal preferences that are also worthy of consideration and not to be summarily dismissed?
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@LumensLover , I didn't suggest that you were trashing anyone. I was referring to dismissing <1.0 gain matte grey screens by presenting only a targeted negative scenario that didn't work for you. In the post above @bud16415 presents a counterpoint scenario based on math and science that shows how a specific setup with a <1.0 gain matte grey screen would work just fine. Square peg in square hole and round peg in round hole.

I recall a couple of years ago when you first started posting on the projectors forum that you were going back and forth on whether or not you could be satisfied with front projection because you wanted a really bright image with some ambient light in the room like a big TV. I remember making a lot of recommendations to you trying to help you make the right choice. At one time I recall saying that front projection is not for everyone and maybe someone with the handle of LumensLover might be disappointed with any front projection setup.

I'm glad that after buying and either returning or selling numerous projectors and screens that you finally found a combination that worked for you. It's likely that combination would also work for others with a viewing environment and personal preferences closely aligned with yours. But can you accept the fact that there are other options that can and have worked for others with different viewing environments and personal preferences that are also worthy of consideration and not to be summarily dismissed?
Point taken Dave. However if you go back to my previous post which started this chain of messages, you will see that I simply stated I hate grey screens. Nowhere did I state in that post that no one should use them at all.
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Point taken Dave. However if you go back to my previous post which started this chain of messages, you will see that I simply stated I hate grey screens. Nowhere did I state in that post that no one should use them at all.
This is fast becoming semantics rather than science. You have a room of white walls / ceiling and 120” ALR screen and a quality projector. And are happy with the results over numerous other combinations.

I have a room with very dark walls and a black ceiling and a 100” .5 gain neutral gray screen and a modest projector with ok CR and around 900 lumens for lights out movies. And I too am happy with my results. I did this because I can jump my lumens up to 2000 lumens with a bit less CR and a bit less black levels but now I can also tolerate a whole lot of ambient light when watching ANSI like contrast programming. And that makes me even more happy.

I’m not going to say I hate all ALR screens just because they wont do what I want and they are never going to be as good as my neutral gray.

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@bud16415 , expanding on your math, a 120" screen is 59x105 = 6195/144 = 43 sq foot x 15 fL = 645 lumens. Doubling that for a 0.5 gain neutral grey screen = 1290 lumens.

My HW45ES could just barely handle that because on high lamp it's been independently measured at 1,300+ lumens in most accurate mode. However, after the first 500 hours when the lamp dims 25% it would struggle. The newer JVC models are even brighter at 1,600+ lumens in most accurate mode, so they would be pretty close after the first 500 hours of lamp dimming. But with 15 fL that would only be usable in the dark with no ambient light. In the scenario described by @LumensLover with a 120" or larger screen, ambient light, light colored room surfaces and a preference for a brighter than average image an ALR screen would be a better choice for most than a 0.5 gain matte grey screen.

I see both sides. I take each individual situation on its own merits based on projector choice, screen size, lighting conditions and user preferences. If we take all of these factors into consideration we can generally make a good recommendation to those coming here asking for advice. Anything will work for someone but nothing will work for everyone.
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This is fast becoming semantics rather than science. You have a room of white walls / ceiling and 120” ALR screen and a quality projector. And are happy with the results over numerous other combinations.

I have a room with very dark walls and a black ceiling and a 100” .5 gain neutral gray screen and a modest projector with ok CR and around 900 lumens for lights out movies. And I too am happy with my results. I did this because I can jump my lumens up to 2000 lumens with a bit less CR and a bit less black levels but now I can also tolerate a whole lot of ambient light when watching ANSI like contrast programming. And that makes me even more happy.

I’m not going to say I hate all ALR screens just because they wont do what I want and they are never going to be as good as my neutral gray.
Once again I stated that I hate grey screens. I did not say I need science to prove my opinion wrong or to change my opinion. You all brought that to the thread not me. If you have a set up that works for you, that is all that counts. You don't need to be dissuaded by me or to persuade me.


I've seen just about every projector and screen combination available. And I'm also quite familiar with the history of projection systems. Grey screens were an helpful aid in the early days of projectors where low contrast ratios were the norm.
But today there is a plethora of high contrast projectors at affordable prices. I personally do not see the need for grey screens unless you're using a small screen combined with entry level projector due to a tight budget. No more, no less.
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Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
@bud16415 , expanding on your math, a 120" screen is 59x105 = 6195/144 = 43 sq foot x 15 fL = 645 lumens. Doubling that for a 0.5 gain neutral grey screen = 1290 lumens.

My HW45ES could just barely handle that because on high lamp it's been independently measured at 1,300+ lumens in most accurate mode. However, after the first 500 hours when the lamp dims 25% it would struggle. The newer JVC models are even brighter at 1,600+ lumens in most accurate mode, so they would be pretty close after the first 500 hours of lamp dimming. But with 15 fL that would only be usable in the dark with no ambient light. In the scenario described by @LumensLover with a 120" or larger screen, ambient light, light colored room surfaces and a preference for a brighter than average image an ALR screen would be a better choice for most than a 0.5 gain matte grey screen.

I see both sides. I take each individual situation on its own merits based on projector choice, screen size, lighting conditions and user preferences. If we take all of these factors into consideration we can generally make a good recommendation to those coming here asking for advice. Anything will work for someone but nothing will work for everyone.
I was originally going to go with the screen name LumensLust but I thought that might be too strong of a name so I softened it to Lumenslover. Lol. Though I love lumens, the biggest priority to me is always going to be image quality. And image quality will be compromised when using entry level projectors or business projectors not optimized for home theater viewing. This is the Achilles heel when using larger below gain grey screens.

Last edited by LumensLover; 02-01-2018 at 04:14 PM.
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post #107 of 110 Old 02-01-2018, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by LumensLover View Post
Point taken Dave. However if you go back to my previous post which started this chain of messages, you will see that I simply stated I hate grey screens. Nowhere did I state in that post that no one should use them at all.
Again, to be absolutely clear I was only making a technical counterpoint to help others understand that your statement that <1.0 gain matte grey screens "kill the whites and devour brightness yet they wash out just as easily as a white screen in low levels of ambient light" is only true with inadequate projector lumens and not true with sufficient lumens to properly illuminate the screen.

Of course everyone is free to hate or love any projector setup they want for whatever reasons they want. The way you describe your experience I completely understand where your hate is coming from. But anyone reading this who might be trying to decide what type of screen to get deserves to hear all of the pros as well as all of the cons so that they can make their own educated choice based on balanced data.
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post #108 of 110 Old 02-01-2018, 04:15 PM
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Anything will work for someone but nothing will work for everyone.
No truer words ever spoken.

15FL in a perfect room lights out is a lot of brightness. 10FL is plenty and I have watched as low as 5FL and without competing ambient that even will work fine.

You also don’t have to go to .5 gain if that gets too extreme .7 is a noticeable bump and what I had at my old house.

The guys in the DIY forum have shown some nice gain improved dark gray screens. Taking a .5 like mine up to .7 is pretty easy. I added the slightest sheen to mine if it was white it might be like a 1.1. so maybe my .5 might be a .6

Cutting the viewing cone down from 180 to 170 isn’t much of a deal to viewers.

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For those who haven't seen the ANSI/SMPTE standard 196M, Indoor Theater and Review Room Projection - Screen Luminance and Viewing Conditions, a center screen luminance range of 12-22 foot-lamberts is allowed for theaters with the ideal being 16 fL. Luminance at the sides of the screen should be between 75-90% of center luminance, and never less than 10 fL. That's the industry accepted standard for commercial cinemas.

Some may be able to tolerate dimmer than 10 fL for home theater but they are probably outnumbered by those who prefer a brighter, more TV-like image that would exceed 22 fL, especially with any ambient light in the room. There's just such a wide variety of different room environments and personal preferences for home video that standard 196M would only apply to those trying to replicate the commercial cinema experience in a home theater. For everyone else it's pretty much experiment and see what you like best.
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Very true @Dave in Green and good information. We base a lot of what we do at home around SMPTE standards for larger venue commercial theaters. In reality some of what we do at home and some IMO is quite different because it is compressed down. One thing that clearly is different is the distance from the screen to reflective surfaces and then the returning light path to the screen. Commercial theaters can be quite dark but even the best I have seen are a bit brighter than a perfect home theater can get. It goes back to our eyes iris and what f-stop our eyes are at during a movie and the comfort factor. If we darken the room so much and lower the lumens enough we start getting down in the range of almost full dilation. The image can be really nice down there and very film-like, but any rapid change in the image going from almost no light to the brightest light can be stressful on the eyes.

As a kid we would leave the movie theater and be blind for a few minutes with daylight. The levels in the old movie houses were 10 FL or less would be my guess. Now in my home theater I seldom have a problem leaving the theater and walking into sunlight. I think it is because of the ramped up lumens most of us watch. The point is the old light level didn’t appear dim it was just again the eyes did their job and allowed a proper exposure.

For me it is ambient light that makes all the difference when we talk about dark screens and using increased lumens to combat the ambient. You need the lumens to bump up perception of CR by closing your iris. You need the gray for attenuation and to then exceed the attenuation. Where you want the ambient light is at the location of the viewers I don’t know anyone that has a desire to add ambient back into a room way to the sides or near the screen. We want ambient for the viewers tasks and to be social. Unfortunately the viewers are normally in the same line of sight as the projected light.

When you see ALR screens demos they have strong lights above or to the side of the screen that destroys the wide dispersion white screen. They then unroll the magic ALR screen down and an image appears.

In today’s world of bright light producing displays the notion of Film-Like has mostly disappeared and most FP users are questing for Plasma-Like results. I have often dropped my brightness down for some showings the last one being Dunkirk. I really went for a Film-Like presentation. Sitting around talking after the movie with friends I got the comment, “I don’t know what it is when we come over here to watch a movie, but the movie somehow seems different, more real, or something.” People are trying to put their finger on a feeling they get maybe nostalgic or something. Brighter isn’t always better.
Dave in Green and unretarded like this.

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