Xyscreen comparison review - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 235 Old 10-08-2018, 09:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Agreed, but you don't look into the lens to watch a movie, you look at the image at your screen.

If a lower gain screen has about the same level of blacks, the result is a less contrasty image, that's simple math


@Frank : wow that's a huge difference!

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post #32 of 235 Old 10-08-2018, 10:28 AM
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Agreed, but you don't look into the lens to watch a movie, you look at the image at your screen.

If a lower gain screen has about the same level of blacks, the result is a less contrasty image, that's simple math

Yes, but now you are putting the room into the equation. Rooms are different for everyone. Those with a black pit do not need an ALR screen.
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post #33 of 235 Old 10-08-2018, 11:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Not really, I have a pitch black room and the difference is still visible.
I don't need an ALR screen, but this one still improves the black perfomances, yet at the cost of the peak white.

That's the difference with the other fabrics with a tad lower gain. The peak white is also reduced, but the blacks stay more or less the same, hence a lower contrast ratio.

In other words: with all the fabrics I have compared, I can see why some would prefer the black crystal (even in a pitch black theater) and others the soundmax 4k or another with a gain around 1 or higher.
I cannot see (and others who have visited to compare the fabrics agree) why anyone would choose the dreamscreen or the seymour UF over the other fabrics. The seymour xd is better gain-wise but has a slightly more visible structure (woven a bit looser) compared to the soundmax 4k. This all is even without taking the price into account.
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post #34 of 235 Old 10-09-2018, 03:07 AM
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Originally Posted by nielvm View Post
If a lower gain screen has about the same level of blacks, the result is a less contrasty image, that's simple math

From what I read and understand, it depends mostly on the kind of front projector you're using. If it's a current DLP model than a high gain screen will inevitably highlight its shortomings in terms of black levels. If it's a JVC then a high gain screen will rather highlight brightness and colors as the blacks are already rock solid at the source.


I think the current goal remains (even in a batcave) to get projected images that rival flat screens. I'm enclosing a quick comparison I made today between my High Power 2.8 (front and upper part) and my standard 1.0 gain screen. Front projector is an older Optoma HD83(00) DLP.
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post #35 of 235 Old 10-09-2018, 08:02 AM
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... Is the da-lite really 2.8, has that been measured?
Yes, measured at exactly 2.8 gain on axis by projectorcentral.com nearly 10 years ago.
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post #36 of 235 Old 10-09-2018, 08:27 AM
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… That's the difference with the other fabrics with a tad lower gain. The peak white is also reduced, but the blacks stay more or less the same, hence a lower contrast ratio. ...
Am I understanding this correctly to be claiming that a passive screen material can proportionally affect the lightest colors more than the darkest colors and thus change actual -- as opposed to perceived -- screen image contrast ratio? I would be interested in understanding the scientific reasoning behind this. When in doubt on fundamental screen issues like this I always defer to @Don Stewart due to his screen engineering experience and expertise as Stewart Filmscreen's chief technical officer.
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post #37 of 235 Old 10-09-2018, 09:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by nielvm View Post
If a lower gain screen has about the same level of blacks, the result is a less contrasty image, that's simple math [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

From what I read and understand, it depends mostly on the kind of front projector you're using. If it's a current DLP model than a high gain screen will inevitably highlight its shortomings in terms of black levels. If it's a JVC then a high gain screen will rather highlight brightness and colors as the blacks are already rock solid at the source.


I think the current goal remains (even in a batcave) to get projected images that rival flat screens. I'm enclosing a quick comparison I made today between my High Power 2.8 (front and upper part) and my standard 1.0 gain screen. Front projector is an older Optoma HD83(00) DLP.
I share your opinion of the jvc and dlp projectors. A jvc will propably profit less from the alr materials I tested because their Black level is already very good. With a dlp projector, these alr could improve the Black performances considerably.

Too bad the 2.8 screen is nla, would love to have tried it out.
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post #38 of 235 Old 10-10-2018, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Frank714 View Post
The only setback is that the front projector has to be table mounted

To clarify, that's only to get the full 2.8 gain.

I get about 1.8 with a ceiling mount.



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Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
Am I understanding this correctly to be claiming that a passive screen material can proportionally affect the lightest colors more than the darkest colors and thus change actual -- as opposed to perceived -- screen image contrast ratio?

If you are understanding him correctly, he's mistaken.

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post #39 of 235 Old 10-11-2018, 02:19 AM - Thread Starter
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I don't know the science behind this, but I believe my testing methods were objectif and honest.

When I compared the soundmax 4k with the dreamscreen, I noticed that the soundmax reflected about 20-25% more light than the dreamscreen. Seems logic, dreamscreen claims a gain of 0.80.

Same test, but with a complete black pattern: the dreamscreen only shows a slightly darker image (hardly visible, only just the numbers of the measurement differed slightly) compared to the soundmax. If I adjust my manual lens of the epson tw9300 to match this slightly lower number on the soundmax 4k, the output at 100% white is still a lot higher compared to the the dreamscreen with the lens aparture in the previous setting.

Every way I put it, the contrast ratio on my screen is higher with the soundmax 4k than it is on the dreamscreen (or the other fabrics, but less so). Off course contrast ratio isn't everything, but in my tests I could not find other reasons to prefer another fabric.

A lot of the responses in this topic have been to question testing methods and whether or not they have been scientific enough. I'm not claiming to have found the holy grail of projection screens, I only find that the xyscreen fabrics are better than other samples I have, even if you don't take the price into account.

I would love to hear arguments why you guys would prefer dreamscreen (sorry to keep referring to this brand, but a lot of people seem to be into this on this forum) over another fabric (like seymour av/xd). I have compared them and I don't find any. I would place dreamscreen and seymour av on the same level. Seymour has a higher gain, but the fabric is woven quite loosely. Seymour xd and xyscreen soundmax 4k are comparable, with the advantage for Xyscreen.

Just my 2 cents...
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post #40 of 235 Old 10-11-2018, 08:55 AM
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I don't know the science behind this, but I believe my testing methods were objectif and honest. ...
When someone posts conclusions in a forum about any subject where you do know the science and the conclusions are at odds with the science, do you believe the poster's conclusions or the science?
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post #41 of 235 Old 10-11-2018, 09:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Sure and I don't mind the critisism and other insights, but imo the discussion is getting a bit of target.

I'm sensing a bit of cynism that these fabrics can't be that good and that the other (much more expensive) fabrics known here are undoubtedly better. You don't hear me say that that isn't possible, but I have compared them and I can't see why they whould be better, on the contrary. I would love to hear arguments why I would be wrong about this.
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post #42 of 235 Old 10-12-2018, 06:54 AM
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I hope it is OK that I share some of our insights on this matter as well since DreamScreen has been mentioned quite a number of times in this comparison thread, specifically the acoustical transparency in this case. I took the liberty of ordering some samples of the SoundMax 4K and compared it to the V6 using our regular measurement rig. Disclaimer; this is NOT a lab grade A/B measurement as the SoundMax 4K samples were to small to fit our rig, please see pictures. However, the fact that the SoundMax samples are not perfectly stretched up should not have any major implication on the measurement as such, and the slight overlap should neither.

The measurements indicate that the SoundMax without any black backing applied to it, has a drop of 5,[email protected] while the V6 measures 2,[email protected] (please note that the V6 has the black backing integrated). At 10KHz, the drop is lower for both the V6 and the SoundMax though, as is always the case for acoustical waves (the larger the waves, the easier it is for them to penetrate). Every measurement was made three times or more for redundancy. The rather small measurement box does add some peaks and dips to the recording of the sweep by the way. As the dB-scale is logarithmic, a 3dB added loss is actually double the acoustical energy being blocked off. Adding a black backing would add another 1-3dB depending on the type (or 5,2dB if another layer of the same fabric as used for the SoundMax is used as backing). Also, when it comes to acoustical blockage, it increases exponentially as the overall SPL decreases, i.e. a drop of 5dB at 80dB would amount to typically 10dB at 70dB (this is just estimates, we have currently not done extensively testing on this parameter). However, if the AT is insufficient, it will potentially muffle the audio and remove micro details. This is a very important aspect for an AT fabrics as far as I am concerned at least, and although one can EQ off some of the restraints put on by using an AT fabric, you would certainly want as much as possible going through it.

Again, these values are not to be taken as "lab grade" by any means, but as an indication of what tightening the weave to the levels of what the SoundMax is at will do to the overall AT properties. Also, please note that I have attached a comparison of structural appearance of the V6, the SoundMax and a micro perf PVC screen and I will let that image speak for itself.

Also, there is certainly light bleed though the SoundMax, so measuring its gain would always have to be done using a black backing. If will see if I have the time to do some gain measurements, but I am not contending that it might have somewhat higher gain than the V6.

Please note that I have no objections on end users doing measurements, and this is not a criticism to the @nielvm at all, but I hope my inputs are helpful on better assessing the overall characteristics of the difference of these fabrics nonetheless.
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post #43 of 235 Old 10-12-2018, 10:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Wow, great post, thank you! I think it's great you are taking the time to compare the competition :-)

I can't really see which fabric is which in your graph, but I suppose the dreamscreen is the upper curve :-)
So the dreamscreen excells in acoustic transparancy, but has the disadvantge of a lower gain, is that a good summary?

For my case, I applied a black "backing" on the wall behind the screen which goes around the center speaker. This way I don't have the disadvantage of the double filtering... Personally I don't experience any negative influences of the fabric, once audyssey has done it's work. Since I don't hear anything above +- 16khz, the area where,there is a big difference is also limited. But, off course, this is for everyone to decide for their own...

I also acknowledge your close up pics of the fabric. Dreamscreen has the least structure and is the only one with a backing so no light shines through. For me, the gain factor was the no-go. In think that's the most important factor of a screen nowadays, besides possible visible side effects like moiré, hotspotting, etc,... Certainly with the newest evolutions of hdr...

Once again, thank you to share your insights and absolutely no critisism taken! Your accoustic measurements were a lot more professional than mine (I mostly focused on image quality) so kudos for that!
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post #44 of 235 Old 10-12-2018, 10:29 AM
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Wow, great post, thank you! I think it's great you are taking the time to compare the competition :-)

I can't really see which fabric is which in your graph, but I suppose the dreamscreen is the upper curve :-)
So the dreamscreen excells in acoustic transparancy, but has the disadvantge of a lower gain, is that a good summary?
I guess you would need to add a very good sharpness, no possibility of moiré at any resolution, very accurate D65 tracking, and a completely non-speckled reflection to those image related pros in my HUMBLE opinion. Upping the gain by reducing the AT to such extent as on this particular fabric is not a good solution if you cherish the audio qualities of your system. Also, I have yet to analyse the sharpness and speckle characteristics of the XY-fabric, but if it does measure out to 1.0 gain like you say it might speckle somewhat as well as the PVC threads in the weave would be using a semi-blanc coating, but I´ll test it first.

Although this particular test measured peaks at 5,2dB on 20KHz, even applying a massive amount of EQ, I have never heard any fabrics with those kind of blockage characteristics for the past 15 years of development and comparisons not sounding muffled in a regular HT environment. In a commercial cinema you can boost the SPL to such extent you´ll reduce the effect of the blockage somewhat, but this is certainly not as easy in a residential HT unless you run it at "reference" sound pressure levels most of the time...

I´ll probably have a go at the gain as well as we´ve got a custom build calibration simulator with zero reflection made for these types of tasks, and also very good meters and a very talented THX / ISF calibrator to boot, it will certainly be interesting to see. Our reference would be the Studiotek 100 @1.0 gain. It might measure out as good as the Studiotek 100 (i.e. 1.0 gain), but I have my doubts. The V6 measures out to just over 0.8, but I´ll have it included in the mix just for the reference of it all...

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post #45 of 235 Old 10-12-2018, 12:01 PM
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Sure and I don't mind the critisism and other insights, but imo the discussion is getting a bit of target.

I'm sensing a bit of cynism that these fabrics can't be that good and that the other (much more expensive) fabrics known here are undoubtedly better. You don't hear me say that that isn't possible, but I have compared them and I can't see why they whould be better, on the contrary. I would love to hear arguments why I would be wrong about this.
Don't mistake healthy skepticism for cynicism. It's not that they can't be good. It's trying to understand exactly how good they are compared with known high quality screen fabrics. It's not possible to achieve this understanding from a single user comparison evaluation. One person may perceive and analyze screen performance differently than other users or experienced screen professionals using calibrated test equipment and accepted industry testing procedures. Sometimes it comes down to the fine details to separate an average screen from a superior one.

Background story: Some time ago a forum member posted such an enthusiastic and glowing account of a DIY screen fabric that I found myself lusting after it so much that I started a separate thread to learn more about how great it was. Once other more experienced users posted the shortcomings of this fabric I realized that the enthusiasm of one amateur user had fooled me into believing it was much better than it was. I now look at such enthusiastic reviews with a dose of healthy skepticism as I believe everyone should.

Bottom line is that if a new screen fabric performs well it will be proven out over time by many reviewers and users. The first person to suggest this is naturally going to be open to question and skepticism, so nothing should be taken personally.
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post #46 of 235 Old 10-12-2018, 01:12 PM
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Seeing the pics of Lygren's test, I don't think I would be happy with the texture of the Soundmax. I didn't see a price on the website, but it might be an alternative for those that want a really inexpensive AT screen fabric.

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post #47 of 235 Old 10-12-2018, 01:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Seeing the pics of Lygren's test, I don't think I would be happy with the texture of the Soundmax. I didn't see a price on the website, but it might be an alternative for those that want a really inexpensive AT screen fabric.
Careful, this picture is really up-close. In real-life the soundmax is one of the tightest woven structures, after the dreamweaver, a bit comparable with the seymour XD.

@Lygren : I just compared the dreamscreen to the soundmax in therms of sharpness (really up close with fine lines). I can't say I found differences. Because the soundmax is brighter it SEEMS sharper, but I think they are tied in this area.
I cannot see moiré and I always calibrate on my own screen, so I don't know if it tracks the D65 standard or not, but for me that's less important if you always calibrate on the screen you are using.
Once again: it's possible other people are more demanding, so just my opinion.
I just checked the EQ of the center: audyssey even pulls down the area between 10khz and 20khz. Is it possible that the in-room results might differ from your box?

@Dave in Green : I like the discussion and I think the posts of Lygren added a lot to this topic, especially the last one. I don't agree with all his findings (or I experience them differently in my room), but I appreciate more opinions than my own in this topic.

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post #48 of 235 Old 10-12-2018, 02:03 PM
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Careful, this picture is really up-close. In real-life the soundmax is one of the tightest woven structures, after the dreamweaver, a bit comparable with the seymour XD.
Sorry, I don't consider XD that great. I told Chris when he introduced Enlightor that he had revolutionized the AT screen market. It was that spectacular in my opinion. Now there is Dreamscreen V6, which is on the same level.

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post #49 of 235 Old 10-12-2018, 02:06 PM
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Careful, this picture is really up-close. In real-life the soundmax is one of the tightest woven structures, after the dreamweaver, a bit comparable with the seymour XD.

@Lygren : I just compared the dreamscreen to the soundmax in therms of sharpness (really up close with fine lines). I can't say I found differences. Because the soundmax is brighter it SEEMS sharper, but I think they are tied in this area.
I cannot see moiré and I always calibrate on my own screen, so I don't know if it tracks the D65 standard or not, but for me that's less important if you always calibrate on the screen you are using.
Once again: it's possible other people are more demanding, so just my opinion.
I just checked the EQ of the center: audyssey even pulls down the area between 10khz and 20khz. Is it possible that the in-room results might differ from your box?
Well, first, D65 tracking is important for the parameter you are very concerned about; gain, as a shift in the fabric would have to be compensated for and as such lower the overall reflection. For example, a screen with a blue tint can measure higher gain using a light meter, but measuring the same screen after D65 correction, the gain would take a hit based on the level of D65 tracking. Most fabrics are off, but some more than others. Studiotek 100 is a reference in such regards by the way...

As for sharpness, speckle and such, not sure if I really have the time to do a proper analysis, takes some time, but I can have a look at it, most important for you is that you´re happy with your choice of screen I guess.

As for the AT, if you want the "quick answer", just try blowing through it. I am sure you can feel the significant resistance. Audio is air in motion... As for the box measurement, it´s not exact science, but it´s at least an almost A/B comparison, so the XY might not be 5.2dB blocked "officially", and we normally measure out the V6 to peak at about 2dB, not 2.4, and even a slight movement of the microphone might alternate the results. Measuring these kinds of parameters is very challenging and as such it would be more of a comparison than anything else. Regardless, the XYscreen certainly blocks of a whole lot more than the V6, and in my opinion, way too much. I have measured a number of woven and knitted screens up through, and I rarely see these kinds of blockage levels. Last time I believe I saw such a level of AT was for the 3. generation Screen Research which was very similar to this XY. This fabric was discontinued about ten years ago based on its poor AT performance and they released their current and still going 4K version which is rated at 1,5dB average and what we used to benchmark the V6 against on our webpages (we averaged it to 2.4dB, and the V6 to 1,5dB).

Making out a proper screen that actually takes into account as many parameters as possible is really hard. I do realise a single layered weave that can be purchased from just about any mill is cheaper than the V6, but we custom make everything, from the layout of the weave, knit, custom dying, custom bonding, custom packaging - and also - patenting the process in doing so. End result is indeed a higher price, and I respect that you place a very high regard on gain and price, people have different priorities.

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post #50 of 235 Old 10-12-2018, 04:02 PM
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It's certainly possible to prefer something that doesn't measure as accurate as something else. For example, many people have a preference for an image that pushes blue vs. D65. There's nothing wrong with that. The issue comes when someone tries to convince others that a screen that pushes blue is "better" than reference D65. While it may be for that person it certainly isn't for all those looking for the most color accurate screen.
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post #51 of 235 Old 10-12-2018, 11:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Concerning D65 I'm well aware that some screens push blue and this needs to be taken into account when measuring the gain. That's why I have always done a greyscale calibration on the samples prior of measuring the ftl value to calculate the gain.

I'm interested in the gain value after calibrating greysale. I don't really care if a screen pushes a certain color (most often blue) a bit or tracks D65 perfectly on its own, the little differences are calibrated away quite easily.

I will try to make some accoustic measurements of the center with and without the screen to determine how much the screen absorbs in a real-life situation.
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post #52 of 235 Old 10-13-2018, 03:08 AM - Thread Starter
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2 measurements of the center in my room. One at +-75db, one at +-85db. Both with and without the projection screen.

The highest difference I get with/without is about 3db.
Measurements were done without EQ.



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post #53 of 235 Old 10-13-2018, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by nielvm View Post
2 measurements of the center in my room. One at +-75db, one at +-85db. Both with and without the projection screen.

The highest difference I get with/without is about 3db.
Measurements were done without EQ.



You seem to be measuring a peak drop of 5dB @20KHz as well @nielvm ...

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Yes, but I don’t have supersonic ears that hear at that frequency. I believe I hear up to about 16 kHz 🙂
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...and your 13,48KHz measurement seems to be coming in at 82,7 - 79,2 = 3,5dB, right? Please also note that black backing is often required, and that even speaker drivers can reflect back from behind a non-backed screen, which would add another 1-5dB peak depending on the type of backing. Anyway, and again, if you are pleased with the fabric it´s all good, but when you previously stated there was "no significant difference" in the AT characteristics of the V6 and the SoundMax I felt I had to give the readers of this thread a second perspective. Again, please note that a 3dB difference is a doubling in acoustical energy being blocked off.

We might be looking into using our patented tech to improve the gain somewhat at some point in the future, but for the V6 we have selected to place a balanced approach in terms of audio and video performance as it is our clear opinion both are vital.

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post #56 of 235 Old 10-13-2018, 01:48 PM - Thread Starter
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The sample I got from dreamscreen is only about 23 x 27 cm. It's impossible to cover a whole speaker with that.
I'll try tomorrow to cover only the tweeter to see what type of response I measure with and without the dreamscreen.

I might have missed it, but in your graph, which line is what?

Of course you have all the right to defend your product here and I will be the first one to admit it if my readings favor dreamscreen in a way.
Please believe that I'm trying to be as objectively as I can in the matter, but of course the readers might think we are both biased for "our" screens
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nielvm View Post
The sample I got from dreamscreen is only about 23 x 27 cm. It's impossible to cover a whole speaker with that.
I'll try tomorrow to cover only the tweeter to see what type of response I measure with and without the dreamscreen.

I might have missed it, but in your graph, which line is what?

Of course you have all the right to defend your product here and I will be the first one to admit it if my readings favor dreamscreen in a way.
Please believe that I'm trying to be as objectively as I can in the matter, but of course the readers might think we are both biased for "our" screens
Say what; if you want a proper A/B setup to measure off of, we can arrange that if you order the largest size sample and place a note that at you have an agreement with me (lygren), you can write out any size sample size you need (...within reasonable limits), and we´ll have one shipped folded, i.e. not usable for projection, but fully usable for AT measurements. On the other hand, since your current measurements seems to correlate quite well with the ones we just took off of the box I am quite confident your results would look similar in terms of the V6 as well, but I am all for "seeing and hearing is believing", so by all means.

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post #58 of 235 Old 10-14-2018, 01:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank you for the offer. I just took some more measurements where I only covered the tweeter, which worked pretty good IMO.

The lines are without any fabric, with the dreamscreen and with soundmax. Of course all measurements are done without equalizing and mic at listening position.



The real difference begins at +- 14-15khz, the xyscreen continues to drop where the dreamscreen remains at the same level. For the rest, the both fabrics react very alike.
As you said, the difference will be slightly higher if you need to add another black backing..

To summarize: the dreamscreen performs better accoustic-wise => correct. Is it a big difference? In my opinion not so much. I don't care much what my speakers do above 15khz and if you do, I'm sure your equalizer will be able to correct for the loss. The difference will be a bit higher if you add another black backing, but you can avoid this if you darken the wall behind the projection screen and use the black fronts of your speakers to avoid reflection of the drivers.

In return you get a significantly higher gain (will measure the exact difference later today) which you can not replace with a form of equalizing or such...
Projector manufacturers keep trying to improve their lumens, which goes at a rate of propably 5-10% per generation of 2 years. So IMO a gain which is 20% higher is a very big asset.





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Originally Posted by nielvm View Post
... I don't really care if a screen pushes a certain color (most often blue) a bit or tracks D65 perfectly on its own, the little differences are calibrated away quite easily. ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by nielvm View Post
... I don't care much what my speakers do above 15khz and if you do, I'm sure your equalizer will be able to correct for the loss. The difference will be a bit higher if you add another black backing, but you can avoid this if you darken the wall behind the projection screen and use the black fronts of your speakers to avoid reflection of the drivers. ...
It's certainly valid that some product deficiencies can be compensated for. This is how many people justify saving money by purchasing a lower cost economy model of a product that's not as carefully engineered and produced as a more expensive premium models. For example, in North America many have cited Silver Ticket for offering a great combination of good screen performance and low price. As thewirecutter.com summed it up in naming Silver Ticket "The Best Projector Screen (for most people),":

Quote:
There are screens that are better, or cheaper, but none match the Silver Ticket in that perfect balance of better and cheaper.
If XYScreen is being considered as a potential source of screens with reasonably good performance at lower cost then it would be important to understand the cost savings over screens with superior performance at higher cost. Only by fully understanding all performance parameters and exact pricing can we assign a product to its proper place on the price/performance curve.

You deserve credit for being the first to present the AVS Forum community with user impressions of this screen brand that is not well known on the global market. In time other user impressions and more sophisticated test results from experienced AV professionals will help clarify the value positioning of XYScreens compared with other screen companies.
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To give you an idea about the price: for my 120" 21:9 screen I paid around 200€ for the fabric (already had a frame). This includes the shipping (almost half the cost) and border costs.
Someone who came to check out the fabric quality has ordered a thin frame 16:9 110" screen. All costs included (customs, transport) the price will be around €600. I'm not sure if shipping to USA would cost more or less compared to Europe...
His screen should arrive tomorrow. I'm curious to see if the build quality of their frames is reasonable.

I just measured the FTL coming of the screen compared to dreamscreen, since I relied on my previous measurements with kingpin to calculate the gain.

Soundmax: 17.2 ftl
Dreamscreen: 14.2 ftl
Difference: +- 20%

Greyscale calibration was almost completely spot on between the two screens. Dreamscreen could do with one step higher on blue gain (42 vs 41).
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