Xyscreen comparison review - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 202 Old 10-14-2018, 12:10 PM
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I guess that would make sense if the SoundMax does measure out to about 1.0 gain, and the V6 17,5% lower, i.e. about 0,83... We´ll do a test at our end, but provided that the weave is sufficiently tight, there is no secret gain is possible to increase quite a lot at the cost of AT (XD being an example). However, at 1.0 being (somewhat) AT it normally has some amount of speckle. I´ll let you know how it references to the ST100, which is a very good 1.0 gain reference as such.
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post #62 of 202 Old 10-14-2018, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post

If XYScreen is being considered as a potential source of screens with reasonably good performance at lower cost then it would be important to understand the cost savings over screens with superior performance at higher cost. Only by fully understanding all performance parameters and exact pricing can we assign a product to its proper place on the price/performance curve.

You deserve credit for being the first to present the AVS Forum community with user impressions of this screen brand that is not well known on the global market. In time other user impressions and more sophisticated test results from experienced AV professionals will help clarify the value positioning of XYScreens compared with other screen companies.
Great post. I agree that the OP is to be commended for taking a look at these screens.

If the texture of the the XY is similar to Seymour XD, then it would be to much texture for me. I know plenty of people that are happy with that amount of texture and/or want the extra gain. I have said this before everyone has their own threshold of what is acceptable.
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post #63 of 202 Old 10-15-2018, 04:18 AM
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So, we did a quick comparison measurement of the V6 vs. the SoundMax in our fully reflection treated room. We used an D65 calibrated (for Studiotek 100) JVC DLA-RS440 as the D65 light source. No further calibration was done to compensate for the slightly different D65 tracking of the two fabrics (avr CCT is 6658K on V6 and 6753K on the SoundMax). The calibrator doing the measurements is Gorm Sorensen, ISF L3 / THX certified. I´ve also included a list of the gear that we used.

What we make out of these measurements is a difference of 12,5% @Peak 100IRE. The contrast measured off of the V6 is 21057:1 and 19282:1 on the SoundMax, with no reflections to contaminate the measurements (complete batcave). The SoundMax was measured in front of a black backing to avoid contamination.

As for the SoundMax, it does also produce a bit of glare / sheen.

I guess this concludes my comments in this thread, and again; I am certainly not against end-users doing measurements / reviews at all, and I hope our inputs can be takes as just that; inputs - in which I felt was due given the comments and figures that we were not able to correspond with our own findings having developed this screen material over a long span of time.
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post #64 of 202 Old 10-15-2018, 04:21 AM
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Sorry, here are the measurements and some pictures...
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post #65 of 202 Old 10-15-2018, 09:58 AM - Thread Starter
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How do you come by a difference of 12,5%?

I see Y value of 250,28 vs 219,19. To me that's 14%? Not that big a difference, but hey, we're trying to be correct

Strange to see that you do measure quite a difference in black value (0.01 vs 0.013). That's a difference of 30% That also explains the contrast which is a bit higher in favor of the dreamscren at your measurements...

Thanks for testing and your imput!
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post #66 of 202 Old 10-15-2018, 10:59 AM
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It´s 12,41% actually, and we did not take into account that less correction would be needed to hit D65 with the V6. My guess for your measured contrast boost on the other fabrics would be the meter. At these light levels, the Klein K10A is very very accurate, but lower end meters such as C6 etc. have a much harder time measuring at those levels. Also, might be OK to mention that we use a PR670 (Photo Research) and / or Colorimetry Research (required for <5nm lasers) to create the offset files for the K10A, ensuring high accuracy.

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post #67 of 202 Old 10-15-2018, 11:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Haha, it depends on how you calculate of course...

You say that you loose 12.4% light coming from soundmax going to dreamscreen. I say that, according to your measurements, you gain 14% if you go from dreamscreen to soundmax...
And hey, we are both right Don’t we love math...
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post #68 of 202 Old 10-15-2018, 12:06 PM - Thread Starter
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@Ericglo : for your consideration, a close up pic between soundmax (left) and seymour XD (right)

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post #69 of 202 Old 10-15-2018, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nielvm View Post
@Ericglo : for your consideration, a close up pic between soundmax (left) and seymour XD (right)


It is hard to tell, but it looks like the Soundmax might have slightly tighter weave.

Based on your price of the Soundmax, the prices are comparable between the two.

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post #70 of 202 Old 10-15-2018, 09:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes the soundmax has thicker threads but is woven thighter.

For me, I would have to pay shipment from usa to Europe for the Seymour, so it would have been more expensive I think...
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post #71 of 202 Old 10-16-2018, 05:11 AM
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I was thinking shipping to Europe might be cheaper for you, but in the US it should be cheaper with Seymour. Although, the screen material I purchased a couple of years ago wasn't expensive to ship from China.

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post #72 of 202 Old 10-20-2018, 04:22 AM
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Great discussion over here and I would like to share my opinions on both the XY Soundmax Screen and the Dreamscreen V6.

Recently I visited Niel in Belgium and saw his Soundmax screen in action with both his Epson 9300 and my own JVC X7900 that I brought along. Together we reviewed te screen and compared it with samples of other screenfabrics.
We also did some simple acoustical tests with my Umik mic and REW. Those acoustical transparency tests were very unscientific but I think the results were not too far off the tests that Lygren made and documented (Kudos for that!).

At home I have a 104” AT from Screen Excellence, with the Enlightor 4K fabric. I am very happy with the quality and characteristics of that screen but I would like to move tot a slightly bigger screen, say 115”-120”. The problem is that with my current screen I have barely enough light for a decent HDR output. In didn’t care much for HDR before but that is changing rapidly as more and more good content gets available these days.

I have seen several Dreamscreen V6 screens in combination with Sony, JVC and Barco projectors. I was always pleased with the results, I really like the fabric, the image quality and the fact that the black backing is integrated. I am also convinced by it’s acoustical properties. The only downside for me is the even lower gain (0.82) than my current Enlightor 4K (0.9) screen. When I put an A3 product sample of the Dreamscreen V6 fabric over my Enlightor 4 screen, the image shows clearly darker on the Dreamscreen. The difference is at least one step up/down on the JVC manual iris.

So, the biggest reason for me to visit Niel and his Soundmax screen was to see how much light it could reflect, if it was able to give enough pop to HDR content on a bigger screen than my own.

My overall impression on the image of the Soundmax screen was very positive, especially when you consider the retail price. From the seating position it gave a very nice picture without any obvious downsides. Up close to the screen you can definitly see some sparkling but from my seating position I did not notice it.

This screen however has two negatives that need carefull consideration.

First off, when we measured the acoustical transparency we noticed some differences between de Soundmax and Dreamscreen fabric, but they seemed not too discerning at that time. If I remember correctly the Soundmax was about 1-1.5 dB less transparent at around 1k Hz and even a bit more than that above 10k Hz. But looking at the total curve that didn’t seemed a problem at all, in Niel’s room. What I didn’t realise then was that the Dreamscreen is with black backing applied and the measurement of the Soundmax was without any black backing material. So it’s fair to say that, acoustically, the Soundmax has a real disadvantage here. Niel has applied black backing around his center speaker and that works really well. Also his centerspeaker is not too insensitive and his sytem can easily compensate for the remaining loss in acoustical transparency. However, for others like myself, who need/want a conventional black backing direct behind the screen, this could be an issue. I own a rather insensitive centerspeaker (Dynaudio Contour) that needs lots of power to shine. An AT-screen + black backing that would hold it back 4-5 dB would be painfull. Buying a more expensive screen could well be cheaper than buying a more expensive poweramp to compensate for the cheaper screen...

Second, the soundmax screenmaterial is very hard and not easy to stretch. Niel’s screen is not 100% flat. That’s only visible with the room lights on but still. For me this would not be acceptable. For Niel it’s ok and therefore not an issue. The perfectionist DIY’s among us should be aware that streching this material will be a challange.

All things considered, this XY Soundmax screen is a nice product for a bargain price. In Niel’s home theater it fits perfecly and I fully understand that he is happy with it.
For me, the search continues...

Bas.
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post #73 of 202 Old 10-20-2018, 10:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank you Bas for your opinion! I hope you will find your screen
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post #74 of 202 Old 11-01-2018, 12:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Some pics of a friend who bought a thin edge screen (110").







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post #75 of 202 Old 11-02-2018, 06:56 AM
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Quote:
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Also, when it comes to acoustical blockage, it increases exponentially as the overall SPL decreases, i.e. a drop of 5dB at 80dB would amount to typically 10dB at 70dB (this is just estimates, we have currently not done extensively testing on this parameter).
This ought to be impossible - or how do you explain this claim in terms of wave science? Seems to me this would indicate something is off with your measurement technique or equipment rather.
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post #76 of 202 Old 11-02-2018, 07:21 AM
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This ought to be impossible - or how do you explain this claim in terms of wave science? Seems to me this would indicate something is off with your measurement technique or equipment rather.
For now, we have only measured this effect, and it is significant and repeatable. Might be the gear and/or setup caused by added reflections within our cabinet, which in term increases as the SPL increases and as such influences the measurements to provide the effect we are observing, but the cabinet is properly insulated so it should not be influenced by that factor in a too great extent. That might be a relevant factor also for actual cinema installations, but I have not conducted a sufficient amount of tests to provide you with any further help as to explain this observation.

As for the actual perceived difference between 4-5dB and a 2-3dB peak blockage, it is certainly extremely significant in my experience and opinion, but audio is highly subjective and also it depends on the type of speaker, overall SPL etc. Some is possible to EQ off, but will cause increased reflections being built up behind the screen and as such introduce more issues than just EQ artefacts alone.

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post #77 of 202 Old 11-02-2018, 07:59 AM
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As for the actual perceived difference between 4-5dB and a 2-3dB peak blockage, it is certainly extremely significant in my experience and opinion, but audio is highly subjective and also it depends on the type of speaker, overall SPL etc.

Perceived difference is explained by Fletcher-Munson but an objectively measured difference is not (unless you are inadvertently using a weighted response curve as your mic cal file). The ratio of direct vs reflected energy inside your measurement box is also independent of SPL. There is no scientific support for a phenomena of a greater roll-off in the 10-20kHz range due to a variation in amplitude (volume). The wavelength of the relevant audio remains the same.
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post #78 of 202 Old 11-02-2018, 08:20 AM
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Perceived difference is explained by Fletcher-Munson but an objectively measured difference is not (unless you are inadvertently using a weighted response curve as your mic cal file). The ratio of direct vs reflected energy inside your measurement box is also independent of SPL. There is no scientific support for a phenomena of a greater roll-off in the 10-20kHz range due to a variation in amplitude (volume). The wavelength of the relevant audio remains the same.


Thanks, I am sure your theory is accurate, which in term is a good thing for AT screens in general as you’re saying the average measured at 70 or 80dB, albeit being recorded differently in our setup still remains the same in reality. So, a blockage of 3dB remains at 3dB even if the amplitude of the wave is reduced and taken into account the dB scale is logarhitmic - according to theory at least...

Measuring audio blockage is certainly quite challenging (as is video...), but at least we’re doing an a/b measurement for our indications and will try to improve our methodology at some point as well, as it remains very important to us to be able to properly document the very good AT characteristics of the hybrid construction used in our case...


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post #79 of 202 Old 11-02-2018, 08:32 AM
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Yes it is a challenge indeed. Striving to produce as acoustically transparent a screen as possible though is a noble quest and I applaud your for your hard work in this respect.


Here's hoping your future v7 turns out to be a sparkle-and-sheen free 2.8 gain, +8K compatible, [email protected], wallet-friendly model
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post #80 of 202 Old 11-22-2018, 02:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Got “some” more samples today, including some high-gain ones which might interesting.

Will test, measure and report later &#x1f609;
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post #81 of 202 Old 12-13-2018, 11:42 AM
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In regard to the Black Crystal 0.8, would the darker whites be corrected by more lamp output, gamma correction, or white balance?
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post #82 of 202 Old 12-13-2018, 12:33 PM
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Really enjoyed the review.

Am looking for/considering an AT screen for a new hometheater build.

Wasnt a huge fan of people stepping in to say that it "isnt fair for hobbyist to write reviews of products" its kind of the entire point of this forum. But I wont derail this thread.

Was curious if you compared this to something like a spandex screen with black backing and had any input on the difference in terms of visual performance?

I am looking to make the move to 4k, and while everyone raves about the price/performance of spandex, I want to make sure I will actually be able to make use of my 4k projection system, and not be thwarted at the final step by a cheap screen.

Getting honest reviews and opinions of products on this particular subject can be kind of a pain, because more and more companies are spending time on here and whenever a competitor or a cheaper alternative gets a positive review, they all jump out to try to defend their products and more importantly their price-points. This happens moreso in the screen section, than any other section on AVSforum imo.
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post #83 of 202 Old 12-14-2018, 05:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Regarding the blacklevels on the black crystal, I recently did a more thorough research of the influence of the gain values on 0IRE (black) and 100IRE (white).
In general, the contrast ratio between the two remain more or less the same between all the fabrics. So a lower gain means lower blacks, but less bright whites.
You cannot raise the white levels again by adjusting gamma or white balance.

So the black crystal is interesting if you need the ALR capacities or when you have a lot of light output/a smaller screen to lower the black levels. I can imagine it would also be a nice combination with a dlp projector, which always lack a bit in that department.

Regarding the comparison between spandex, before my soundmax 4k screen, I had a DIY spandex screen. Spandex is super cheap and pretty good, but has a very low gain of about 0.75. Also, the color uniformity is a lot worse (spandex pushes blue a lot). When you calibrate on your own screen, this is of course easily corrected.

On a 2.8m (+- 9ft) wide screen 0.75 gain is pretty low, certainly with HDR. If I would use the same projector (Epson Tw9300/UB5040) on a smaller screen of let’s say 2m (+- 6ft), a lower gain could be more interesting.

I got some more samples from xyscreen, a lot of HG fabrics. I haven’t yet had the time to translate my review in English about them. The highest gain I measured was about 1.55 and I couldn’t see any sparkles or hotspotting, but I must admit it’s often quite hard to review on a small piece of fabric.

Today I should also get samples from the German company Hivilux. I’m creating a large word file to post my findings for every screen/brand.
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post #84 of 202 Old 12-14-2018, 12:00 PM
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Regarding the blacklevels on the black crystal, I recently did a more thorough research of the influence of the gain values on 0IRE (black) and 100IRE (white).
In general, the contrast ratio between the two remain more or less the same between all the fabrics. So a lower gain means lower blacks, but less bright whites.
You cannot raise the white levels again by adjusting gamma or white balance.

So the black crystal is interesting if you need the ALR capacities or when you have a lot of light output/a smaller screen to lower the black levels. I can imagine it would also be a nice combination with a dlp projector, which always lack a bit in that department.
And how about increasing lamp output 20%? Does that bring the white back up?

In the case of helping DLP black floor I dont think thats the case, my white screen can get significantly closer to black then my benq w1070. E.g. putting an all black image on the w1070 and casting a shadow on the screen the shadow is almost as dark as the masking whereas the projected area is much brighter.
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post #85 of 202 Old 12-14-2018, 12:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Increasing the lamp: yes, but your Black levels will rise too.

Don’t quite understand what you are saying with the white screen. An unprojected screen will be darker, but I always measured the black performance of the projected image of course...
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Increasing the lamp: yes, but your Black levels will rise too.

Don’t quite understand what you are saying with the white screen. An unprojected screen will be darker, but I always measured the black performance of the projected image of course...

Yup, nevermind, I pulled out a Parallax .8 sample and when the image is all black with the lights out the parallax is much darker then the 1.0 gain white screen.
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post #87 of 202 Old 12-15-2018, 08:26 AM
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Really enjoyed the review.

Am looking for/considering an AT screen for a new hometheater build.

Wasnt a huge fan of people stepping in to say that it "isnt fair for hobbyist to write reviews of products" its kind of the entire point of this forum. But I wont derail this thread.

Was curious if you compared this to something like a spandex screen with black backing and had any input on the difference in terms of visual performance?

I am looking to make the move to 4k, and while everyone raves about the price/performance of spandex, I want to make sure I will actually be able to make use of my 4k projection system, and not be thwarted at the final step by a cheap screen.

Getting honest reviews and opinions of products on this particular subject can be kind of a pain, because more and more companies are spending time on here and whenever a competitor or a cheaper alternative gets a positive review, they all jump out to try to defend their products and more importantly their price-points. This happens moreso in the screen section, than any other section on AVSforum imo.
Where have you been? Companies have been on AVS from the beginning. The input can be invaluable. In this instance, I don't believe Lygren was being combative or dismissive. He actually went to the trouble of testing the material himself. He gave another data point that you can either acknowledge or dismiss.

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post #88 of 202 Old 12-15-2018, 02:18 PM
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It's natural to have healthy skepticism about any new product without a track record that suddenly starts getting positive reviews from new forum members. Of course many of those reviews are honest opinions from legitimate enthusiasts. But it's well known that some have used this and other forums to shill for various products that haven't been evaluated by trusted independent reviewers with a history of accurate, unbiased testing.

Certainly no one on AVS Forum should be discouraged from expressing their opinions, whether those opinions are positive reviews of a new product or healthy skepticism about those reviews until such time as more definitive proof of performance is available from multiple reliable sources.
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post #89 of 202 Old 01-12-2019, 01:02 PM
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Hi,

Thank you for your imput.

You are absolutely right that the absolute gain values could be a bit off, I think I already acknowledged this in the review and in the answers. The meaning of this review isn't to determine the exact gain value, but rather to compare the diferent fabrics to one another. The difference between the fabrics in light reflection I posted seem to me to be quite accurate. I think the comparison or ranking of the tested fabrics are more important than the exact gain value.
nielvm, do you use the black spandex fabric behind the soundmax 4k or just the soundmax 4k fabric alone?
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post #90 of 202 Old 01-12-2019, 01:04 PM - Thread Starter
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I used the Black spandex as well, but I placed it against the wall so it could go around my center speaker, not covering that up twice.

You really need a Black backing (or Black wall) with this cloth.
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