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post #241 of 289 Old 01-13-2020, 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by evanft View Post
Selling my plasma has provided the money needed to jump in on my screen a bit earlier than expected. Just confirmed the order.
  • Electric EC2 Tab-Tensioned
  • 115"
  • 2.40:1 ratio
  • Soundmax 4k material
  • Customized top drop to 38 mm (I have an I-beam right where the screen is going to go that prevents me from mounting it any higher.)
  • Infrared remote
  • $630 total price: $480 screen + $120 seaway shipping to MI + $30 Paypal fee

I should have it sometime in October. If I wanted it faster, the shipping would have been $250-$300 and I would have had to pick it up at an airport. Definitely not worth it to me.
Did your screen arrive yet?

I'd be interested to find out how well the Soundmax 4K material tensions on your screen, as it is about the only complaint I have with mine (100" 16:9).

My screen has some ripples in it and the tab tensioning doesn't seem to resolve it. I don't know if there is any way to adjust it at the top or just the bottom?

It's not a major issue on most content fortunately - it shows up on fast panning sports and a page of text looks a bit 'wonky', but for general films/TV it is harder to see.

I don't know if it is the EC2 tensioning system that is at fault or just that this type of material is hard to tension.

It's a shame because I'm delighted with the screen apart from that. The two things that I was worried about were the black surround not being dark enough for the overspill from my Benq HT3550 and the thin material with no backing causing reflections on the TV behind. Neither have been a problem at all.
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post #242 of 289 Old 01-13-2020, 07:15 AM
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Exclamation UST - ALR screen Help

Hello Everyone,


I am in need of a solution for my living room. Especially since I convinced my wife to go with projection vs. a TV. Besides going with something crazy like a Black Diamond screen. What's going to be the best solution for ALR with a UST projector? I have an Optoma 320UST. The sun is killing our viewing abilities during the day. I have seen XYscreen's but they want 1200 for a 120" screen, surely there is an alternative that will perform just as well for a smaller cost. (At least I hope)


P.S. - I have tried a variety of grey paints, and while they do help.. I just feel having a proper screen for UST would be best solution.

Thanks ins advance!

Last edited by Luis Gonzalez; 01-14-2020 at 06:06 AM.
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post #243 of 289 Old 01-13-2020, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Volusiano View Post
I got my 120" ALR PET Crystal screen from XY-Screen finally set up with my new Vava 4K projector. Thought I'd share some pics on how well the ALR works during daylight in case anyone is interested to see. The first 4 are during daylight with most of my blinds/shutters closed. The last 4 are with the blinds/shutters open.

Of course darker lighting is still the best. But the ALR seems to do a decent job in bright daylight.
How much was the screen if you don't mind me asking?
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post #244 of 289 Old 01-13-2020, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Luis Gonzalez View Post
Hello Everyone,


I am in need of a solution for my living room. Especially since I convinced my wife to go with projection vs. a TV. Besides going with something crazy like a Black Diamond screen. What's going to be the best solution for ALR with a UST projector? I have an Optoma 320UST. The sun is killing our viewing abilities during the day. I have seen XYscreen's but they want 1100 for a 120" screen, surely there is an alternative that will perform just as well for a smaller cost. (At least I hope)


P.S. - I have tried a variety of grey paints, and while they do help.. I just feel having a proper screen for UST would be best solution.

Thanks ins advance!
An ALR screen will not help if there is too much ambient light in the room.
Light must not hit the screen directly, light can be placed in the seating area, not the screen area.
Treating the walls with darker paint of fabrics to absorb some of the light will help.

If there is medium-high to high ambient light a TV would be more appropriate.
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post #245 of 289 Old 01-13-2020, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luis Gonzalez View Post
Hello Everyone,


I am in need of a solution for my living room. Especially since I convinced my wife to go with projection vs. a TV. Besides going with something crazy like a Black Diamond screen. What's going to be the best solution for ALR with a UST projector? I have an Optoma 320UST. The sun is killing our viewing abilities during the day. I have seen XYscreen's but they want 1100 for a 120" screen, surely there is an alternative that will perform just as well for a smaller cost. (At least I hope)


P.S. - I have tried a variety of grey paints, and while they do help.. I just feel having a proper screen for UST would be best solution.

Thanks ins advance!
See my response with pics in the thread you started this morning. But I think you're going to be disappointed, because an ALR screen is not going to give satisfactory results in your environment.
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post #246 of 289 Old 01-13-2020, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Dhiren Raghvani View Post
@bdht

Thanks so much for the detailed response, very much appreciated. The setup of the room is that the screen is in front of a bay window. Yes I will have shutters but these are not fully light blocking and during the day I know the kids will not close them as well, I also know when watching football I prefer a light room. Hence I was looking for a compromise between performance and practicality. I honestly thought the TK850 would be it but obviously from your expertise this is not the case!
Light from behind the screen is better than light to the sides or above. While it will raise the overall ambient light level of the room, which raises your black level, you won't get as severe of washout like when light directly hits the screen. When its not a dedicated room(dark fabric walls and no light sources), its a good idea to try starting with a cheap (just $60 for motorized for those who need retractable) screen and a cheap used projector before spending 1, 2, 3k so you can gain first hand experience with the physics of projection, as its drastically different than how a tv functions.

I personally just dont enjoy the look of very bright projectors with very low color brightness, especially when you see them next to a tv alr screen or not :/ Really I view ALR screens as offsetting imperfect rooms with the lights off, and the ambient light from the projector/screen into the room, not for daytime viewing.

The tk850 is the same projector as the ht3550 with a different color wheel, same bulb, same power draw. But instead of 90-100% color brightness you get 50% and the image looks washed out anyway. You can always use brilliant color and increase brightness at the expense of color output without sacrificing the better color wheel and better color modes. I dont find myself using brilliant color though, better to hit your desired light output level.

Even if we shave off 20% of the ht3550s light output for bulb age and use 0.6 as the gain figure for the screen, youre still looking at 25fl which is a bright image. Since youre screen size isnt 120, 130, 150" you dont need as high of a light output.

For your viewing conditions in the future keep an eye out for rgb laser as these projectors paired with a blacker screen material will really enable ambient light viewing for projection, due to their very high light output, lower power consumption/heat output compared to uhp bulb projectors with the same light output, and extremely good color ability. Until then something like a BenQ HT9060. These are very bright for LED projectors(1000 to 1400 lumens) and have a very wide native color gamut. While using the native gamut is incorrect for everything but uhd content, the increased saturation improves perceived brightness and appears to wash out less in high ambient light. The nature of the led dlp light engine also improves perceived brightness due to the lack of a color wheel, better color depth, reduced solarizations, reduced flicker. And of course using leds they dont lose brightness as fast as bulbs and you dont have to replace them, 20-30k hours before half of their initial brightness. Maybe as laser and high output led becomes more prevalent we'll start seeing low gain blacker screen materials.

I have a similar situation where viewing of high average display level content(think sports, desktop brightness, cartoons) is done in high ambient light with direct light hitting the screen. With a similar led dlp projector with a wide gamut I only need 200lumens at 80" for comfortable brightness. Colors are vibrant and the only image flaw in that scenario is black levels. All things the same, say if I use 400 lumens the image is uncomfortably bright. Or using that 400 lumens with less bright content, your average scripted scifi fantasy televsion program, provides a nice image in high ambient light for everything except blacks, shadows, etc, I was quite shocked the first time I tried that content with lights on, its something Ive never been able to do before. And that 400 lumens is a good brightness for lights out viewing.

So... color brightness and saturation fight ambient light better than increased light output, dont sacrifice colors for light, increased light output should be used to compensate for lower gain darker/blacker screens. Think about it this way, you increase the light output to compensate for darker areas of the image washing out in ambient light, but the brighter areas dont wash out as much and become uncomfortably bright, and the darker areas are still washed out because they simply dont have the luminance to overpower the high ambient light and the screen isnt low gain enough to reject the ambient light. Better to hit a desired brightness, maintain color brightness, let saturation offset the ambient light, and compress the dynamic range by increasing gamma(1.8-2.0) and brightness settings. Hopefully in the future lower gain blacker materials will be available with rgb laser and then the black material and the high output from the projector offsets ambient and even some direct light.
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post #247 of 289 Old 01-13-2020, 03:52 PM
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@bdht
Is the Optoma ZH403 a RGB laser projector?

What is the screen you're using with what 200lm projector?
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post #248 of 289 Old 01-13-2020, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
@bdht
Is the Optoma ZH403 a RGB laser projector?

What is the screen you're using with what 200lm projector?
Nope, blue laser yellow phosphur and a color wheel. No rgb laser affordable front projection yet, theres the lg ust, the hisense ust, but after that youre talking large venue projectors.

The black crystal 0.8 gain, and its a 400 lumen projector(runco q750i) with a 1 stop nd filter and typically using the native gamut in high ambient light.

Im about to switch it up so the black crystal is used with a sim2 mico40(500-600 lumens and I need an expensive conversion lens to fill my 92" screen lol) and Im going to paint a separate screen a 0.25 gain black to use with an 800 lumen rgb led projector(vivitek h9090) for lights on, which will be at 80".

And I cant recommend anyone target ~10fl. That just seems to be working in a very specific situation.
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post #249 of 289 Old 01-13-2020, 06:00 PM
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So after speaking with XY they suggest that the BC ALR screen (0.8 gain) will be washed out with a 2000 lumen projector and ambient light and that I should consider High Gain 2.5 Gain 3D silver which also supports Active 3D and passive 3D and 4K.

I’m confused as to what screen now? Any advice gratefully received, for me this is a big investment so I would like to be sure.
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post #250 of 289 Old 01-13-2020, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Dhiren Raghvani View Post
So after speaking with XY they suggest that the BC ALR screen (0.8 gain) will be washed out with a 2000 lumen projector and ambient light and that I should consider High Gain 2.5 Gain 3D silver which also supports Active 3D and passive 3D and 4K.

I’m confused as to what screen now? Any advice gratefully received, for me this is a big investment so I would like to be sure.
See attached image, that's what that high gain screen will look like. I'm pretty sure they advertise their BC.8 as having "90%" ambient light rejection ;] 2000 lumens on a 100" .8 gain screen is 55fl, that's very bright, the cinema standard is about 16fl with a white or silver screen. The darker grey of the bc.8 offsets low ambient light/cross reflections and maintains a lower black level. The high gain will reject direct side/overhead light more aggressively but at the expense of image uniformity. If the main source of light coming in the room is from behind the screen, then that side/overhead rejetion isnt as useful except for reflective walls/ceiling in close proximity to the screen.
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post #251 of 289 Old 01-13-2020, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Dhiren Raghvani View Post
So after speaking with XY they suggest that the BC ALR screen (0.8 gain) will be washed out with a 2000 lumen projector and ambient light and that I should consider High Gain 2.5 Gain 3D silver which also supports Active 3D and passive 3D and 4K.

I’m confused as to what screen now? Any advice gratefully received, for me this is a big investment so I would like to be sure.
Active 3D support. Nice of them to add this to the screen.

How far away is the projector and what type of projector?

Where is the ambient light coming from and what type is it?
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post #252 of 289 Old 01-14-2020, 12:53 AM
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@noob00224

Sorry I missed your earlier request, hope this helps.

How far away is the projector and what type of projector? Benq HT3550 or possibly the new Benq tk850.

Where is the ambient light coming from and what type is it?
It’s from behind the screws (bay window) generally when I watch sports.

@bdht

Thanks for the clarification, your knowledge has really helped.
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post #253 of 289 Old 01-14-2020, 01:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Dhiren Raghvani View Post
@noob00224

Sorry I missed your earlier request, hope this helps.

How far away is the projector and what type of projector? Benq HT3550 or possibly the new Benq tk850.

Where is the ambient light coming from and what type is it?
It’s from behind the screws (bay window) generally when I watch sports.

@bdht

Thanks for the clarification, your knowledge has really helped.
Whoops I meant screen not screws...and its natural daylight
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post #254 of 289 Old 01-14-2020, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Dhiren Raghvani View Post
@noob00224

Sorry I missed your earlier request, hope this helps.

How far away is the projector and what type of projector? Benq HT3550 or possibly the new Benq tk850.

Where is the ambient light coming from and what type is it?
It’s from behind the screws (bay window) generally when I watch sports.

@bdht

Thanks for the clarification, your knowledge has really helped.
Both these projectors don't have a throw range higher than 1.47x. Even the 0.8 gain screen will very likely hotspot at that throw range, no to mention the 2.5 gain.

If you want to use an ALR, unless you're ok with a hotspot (with the 0.8 screen, the 2.5 will be too bad), get a projector with a longer throw. Space is required to place it further back. Throw should be 1.9x or higher:
https://www.projectorcentral.com/Eps...ulator-pro.htm
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Both these projectors don't have a throw range higher than 1.47x. Even the 0.8 gain screen will very likely hotspot at that throw range, no to mention the 2.5 gain.

If you want to use an ALR, unless you're ok with a hotspot (with the 0.8 screen, the 2.5 will be too bad), get a projector with a longer throw. Space is required to place it further back. Throw should be 1.9x or higher:
https://www.projectorcentral.com/Eps...ulator-pro.htm
Thanks, Im limited on how far back i can go, but if I am reading this right if I brought the PJ closer to the screen (10"7) I would be ok with the HT3550. Any further and the TK850 would be better? Taking into account this has nothing to do with PQ as per the info from bdht? Apologies for all, the questions, im learning on the job!
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post #256 of 289 Old 01-14-2020, 10:51 AM
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Thanks, Im limited on how far back i can go, but if I am reading this right if I brought the PJ closer to the screen (10"7) I would be ok with the HT3550. Any further and the TK850 would be better? Taking into account this has nothing to do with PQ as per the info from bdht? Apologies for all, the questions, im learning on the job!
Kind of. You can look at all this as uniformity. There are 3 main aspects that contribute to uniformity with projection.

1. The projectors lens and light source. The ht3550 has about 60% uniformity, on a solid bright image the center of the image will look brighter than the corners. The HT9060 should have near perfect uniformity due to the lens and the leds.

2. The screens half gain angle, as you move off to the side the image dims with lower half gain. Lambertian or 180° half gain means light is reflected evenly, so you can stand to the side of the screen and its the same brightness. The black crystal .8 gain has an 80° half gain and looks fairly uniform, the black crystal high gain has a 40° and the corners will look dimmer when sitting at center, and the image will dim if sitting to the sides.

3. Projection screens require a specific distance from the screen to the lens to avoid a phenomenon called hot spotting. Very matte surfaces like the Stewart Studiotek 100 show virtually no hot spotting at any distance. The black crystal .8 gain should probably shoot for a 1.8-1.9 minimum and the black crystal high gain requires a long throw probably over 2.0. Hotspotting also tends to make gain artifacts or screen imperfections more noticeable, sparkle, speckle, sheen, etc.

At this price range and with limited space, however, you can only do so much. For instance I have the Black Crystal 0.8 gain, and with a BenQ W1070(50% uniformity) at a 1.5 throw, uniformity is fairly poor but its not necessarily distracting. But with a Sim2 mico40(near perfect uniformity) and a throw distance of 1.5, uniformity from hotspotting is only noticeable on solid bright images, I dont know that uniformity from the screen is really visible unless displaying full white.

What is the max distance you can place the projector from the screen?
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post #257 of 289 Old 01-14-2020, 12:11 PM
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Thanks! I’m at max distance at 11ft ☹️
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post #258 of 289 Old 01-14-2020, 03:24 PM
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Thanks! I’m at max distance at 11ft ☹️
Thats 11' wall to wall?
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post #259 of 289 Old 01-14-2020, 03:45 PM
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Nope...from the furthest lens position based in a 1.5 ft projector depth. I’m at the property tomorrow so will ask the builder for final measures and report back
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post #260 of 289 Old 01-14-2020, 04:42 PM
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Nope...from the furthest lens position based in a 1.5 ft projector depth. I’m at the property tomorrow so will ask the builder for final measures and report back
Gotcha, so ya on average your throw ratio is going to be around 1.5, so I'd avoid those high gain screens.

I'm not aware of a better screen for that situation at that price. It's a darker grey compared to most of what's available, has good viewing angles, and gain artifacts are comparable to most alr screens. For my unit, the screen is nice and flat, no waves, no wrinkles/ripples, no visible roller lines in the image.

In the future you can consider something like the Da-Lite Parallax .8, which wont be subject to hotspotting, has no gain artifacting, has a wide horizontal viewing angles, completely rejects light from above and below(which results in a low vertical viewing angle but not an issue if eye height is at 1/3 image height or higher). Or wait for actual black materials or paint a budget screen a 0.25gain black and use a brighter solid state projector.

We can discuss alternative projector options if you'd like, send noob or I a pm, but really benq offers good affordable units, long bulb life, good brightness, and a nice image for the price.
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post #261 of 289 Old 01-14-2020, 08:04 PM
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Thanks, Im limited on how far back i can go, but if I am reading this right if I brought the PJ closer to the screen (10"7) I would be ok with the HT3550. Any further and the TK850 would be better? Taking into account this has nothing to do with PQ as per the info from bdht? Apologies for all, the questions, im learning on the job!
Why would placing the HT3550 closer be better? It would be worse.
ALR related artifacts to affect do affect PQ.

This kind of setup is more and more familiar, relatively small untreated rooms with/without ambient light, with small throw distance.
Short answer is a TV.
I haven't tried bdht's setup with a low gain (i.e. 0.25) screen and a solid state projector.

I don't believe there are any ALR screens that would have NO hotspot at short throw ratios. Some screens with less light rejecting properties may have a diminished hotspot, but at 1.5x or lower it's a risky proposition.
The higher the ambient light rejecting properties, the longer the required throw range.

Any ALR can have a hotspot. It's less to do with the quality of the fabric and even the gain and other characteristics, and more to do with the technology, of how angular ALR works.

The optical coating is used to increase the reflectivity and hence the brightness of the image, so it doesn't get too dim. The coating also makes the reflective characteristics of the gray screen more mirror-like in it's directionality, so that the projector light is reflected more towards the viewer, less on to the surrounding walls. (If you are facing a white wall and someone shines a fashlight from above your head on an angle at the wall, the white wall will diffuse the light and light will scatter everywhere, lighting up the rest of the room, like a white screen does. Replace the wall with a mirror - now there is no diffusion of the image of the flashlight - what you see reflected is the focused beam of light right into your eyes). In this way, gray screens with optical gain can have a satisfyingly bright image while also helping maintain good contrast if you have some ambient light, or reflective room surfaces.

BUT...there is a trade off. When you add optical coating to make the reflection more mirror-like, you are of necessity focusing the light to a smaller central area of the screen. This results in uneven screen illumination known as "hot-spotting," where - especially apparent if you have a blank white image - you can see the projector beam being focused more in the center of the screen, and the screen dims significantly as you move off center to the edges of the screen. So it's like a mild spot-light effect in terms of brightness.

If you want to see how the hotspot manifests itself in different lightning and type of picture scenarios. check this posts. In my posts, the hotspot on bright screen looks better IRL, but not by much. The camera can affect how the hotspot looks in pictures:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/23-sc...l#post58809924

There may be a paint mix that you can paint on a budget screen, but I don't know if it will fare any better in high ambient light.
If you're willing to paint, maybe give that a try.


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In the future you can consider something like the Da-Lite Parallax .8, which wont be subject to hotspotting, has no gain artifacting, has a wide horizontal viewing angles, completely rejects light from above and below(which results in a low vertical viewing angle but not an issue if eye height is at 1/3 image height or higher). Or wait for actual black materials or paint a budget screen a 0.25gain black and use a brighter solid state projector.
What about a projector with high color lumens like the HC1060 and a 0.25 gain screen?

I haven't tested other ALR's personally, but from the specifications I don't see how the Parallax 0.8 will not have any artifacts.
Parallax Pure 0.8 claims a 0.8 gain, 85 degree horizontal half gain, 17 degrees vertical half gain, and a recommended 1.5x (or higher) throw.
https://www.legrandav.com/en/product...on/parallax_08
The specifications look very similar to the XY BC 0.8, with maybe the exception of the vertical half gain.

The dnp Supernova 08-85 is identical in specifications:
https://www.dnp-screens.com/media/17...rnova08-85.pdf
https://www.comm-tec.de/de/bilder-un...ovablade-2.pdf

The EVP DarkStar 9:
https://epvscreens.com/screen-materials/
0.9 gain, minimum throw 1.5x, 180 degree viewing angle.


Have you tried these ones?

Greyhawk G4:
0.9 gain, 1.3x minimum throw, 75 degree half gain.
https://www.stewartfilmscreen.com/en...ls/grayhawk-g4

Elunevision Aurora ALR:
1.3 gain, 1.2x minimum throw, 61 degrees half gain.
https://elunevision.com/materials/au...ght-rejection/
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post #262 of 289 Old 01-14-2020, 08:37 PM
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Short answer is a TV.
I'm in the same boat a TV just won't work. The screen comes down in front of a closet. I have a 42" tv on the wall between the door and the closet but that's about all the room there is ;[

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I haven't tried bdht's setup with a low gain (i.e. 0.25) screen and a solid state projector.

What about a projector with high color lumens like the HC1060 and a 0.25 gain screen?
I'm sure there are people in the DIY forum who have low gain screens and very bright projectors. Typically the problem is either sacrificing image quality for light output, or having a very very bright projector to maintain image quality, which comes at the cost of heat output, power consumption, and reduced bulb life. The laser projectors offset those limitations. In any case, a black material is the best option(really the only option as far as image quality is concerned) for high ambient light projection. You can avoid washout and reject light with a fresnel screen but your black is still going to be a light gray.

Huh... 2500 lumens, 6k hour bulb life, 300w. That should work. 100" .25gain screen would give you 21fl. The only concern is panel degradation with LCD and high light output, keep those filters/air intakes clean!. LCD also has a fairly low pixel fill, inferior mtf, overshoots, etc. etc., so if sports and motion are a concern, DLP is a better choice.

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Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
I don't believe there are any ALR screens that would have NO hotspot at short throw ratios. Some screens with less light rejecting properties may have a diminished hotspot, but at 1.5x or lower it's a risky proposition.
I really wonder how UST projection fares with that in mind... Maybe because the projector is below the screen the center point between the lens and your eyes is off screen?
https://www.passionhomecinema.fr/blo...is-de-gregory/



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Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
I haven't tested other ALR's personally, but from the specifications I don't see how the Parallax 0.8 will not have any artifacts.
aha I found it. Behold.https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attac...p;d=1573687541

Very similar matte appearance as the studiotek. Never underestimate human ingenuity. The DNP 0885 and Parallax .8 are the same materials. The EVP DS9 is very similar but has slightly more texture.

The low vertical half gain of the these materials is due to the lavours, kind of like a lenticular screen, and it rejects light from above or below.

The Elunevision Aurora ALR is probably similar to the elite cinegray 5d or one of the other alr models. Elunevision doesn't really provide samples... idk... Id stay away from that one.

The Greyhawk just isnt dark enough.
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post #263 of 289 Old 01-15-2020, 12:10 AM
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I'm in the same boat a TV just won't work. The screen comes down in front of a closet. I have a 42" tv on the wall between the door and the closet but that's about all the room there is ;[


I'm sure there are people in the DIY forum who have low gain screens and very bright projectors. Typically the problem is either sacrificing image quality for light output, or having a very very bright projector to maintain image quality, which comes at the cost of heat output, power consumption, and reduced bulb life. The laser projectors offset those limitations. In any case, a black material is the best option(really the only option as far as image quality is concerned) for high ambient light projection. You can avoid washout and reject light with a fresnel screen but your black is still going to be a light gray.

Huh... 2500 lumens, 6k hour bulb life, 300w. That should work. 100" .25gain screen would give you 21fl. The only concern is panel degradation with LCD and high light output, keep those filters/air intakes clean!. LCD also has a fairly low pixel fill, inferior mtf, overshoots, etc. etc., so if sports and motion are a concern, DLP is a better choice.


I really wonder how UST projection fares with that in mind... Maybe because the projector is below the screen the center point between the lens and your eyes is off screen?
https://www.passionhomecinema.fr/blo...is-de-gregory/




aha I found it. Behold.https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attac...p;d=1573687541

Very similar matte appearance as the studiotek. Never underestimate human ingenuity. The DNP 0885 and Parallax .8 are the same materials. The EVP DS9 is very similar but has slightly more texture.

The low vertical half gain of the these materials is due to the lavours, kind of like a lenticular screen, and it rejects light from above or below.

The Elunevision Aurora ALR is probably similar to the elite cinegray 5d or one of the other alr models. Elunevision doesn't really provide samples... idk... Id stay away from that one.

The Greyhawk just isnt dark enough.
The HC1060/1040 is cheaper and so are the lamps.

The UST lenticular ALR don't have hotspots, I meant regular throw.

What do you mean by black screens? 0.25 gain?

Just because there is no room for a TV doesn't mean that a projector type setup is plausible.

In some setups (just wall reflections) the Greyhawk could work, I assume.

Usually when it says minimum throw, at that range there are some issues.

Last edited by noob00224; 01-15-2020 at 12:15 AM.
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post #264 of 289 Old 01-15-2020, 01:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
The HC1060/1040 is cheaper and so are the lamps.
Right I'd be interested to see what kind of image that provides.

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Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
The UST lenticular ALR don't have hotspots, I meant regular throw.
Heh right, but how is that, is there no optical gain layer due to the close proximity of the projector to the screen?

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What do you mean by black screens? 0.25 gain?
Material in a shade of black

paint mixes like:
8oz FolkArt Metallic Sequin Black
8oz Water-based Matte polyurethane
8oz water

front/rear projection materials like these:
https://strongmdi.com/products/blackview/
https://www.gerriets.com/us/optiblac...jection-screen
Though these would need a velvet layer directly behind them.

My hope for the future is shades similar to those with rgb laser dlp. I think that would make for a very nice image with high ambient light.

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Just because there is no room for a TV doesn't mean that a projector type setup is plausible.
Well... if there isn't space for a tv, but there is space for a retractable screen, then its certainly plausible... within reason and tempering expectations within the realms of physics, you can still have a very nice display. The way technology has evolved just in these last couple of years, there's lots of methods to prevent washout, black levels in ambient light have gotten better, and I don't see that slowing, i.e. we'll be seeing darker materials with brighter projectors, and with micro/nano manufacturing, well see materials like the SSE Ambient-Visionaire Black in retractable format in the future as well.

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Usually when it says minimum throw, at that range there are some issues.
Putting the sample up on the screen at 1.4-1.5 throw ratios, no hotspotting, no sparkle, perfectly resolved pixel structure free of any artifacting.
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post #265 of 289 Old 01-15-2020, 08:11 AM
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MP has the best quality
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post #266 of 289 Old 01-15-2020, 12:43 PM
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I really wonder how UST projection fares with that in mind... Maybe because the projector is below the screen the center point between the lens and your eyes is off screen?
https://www.passionhomecinema.fr/blo...is-de-gregory/



Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
The HC1060/1040 is cheaper and so are the lamps.

The UST lenticular ALR don't have hotspots, I meant regular throw.
Yep. I can attest to UST screens not hot spotting and being VERY uniform. I have an Elites Screens 120" UST CLR paired with an LG CineBeam and the image, at least to the naked eye, is like looking at a large, quality flat panel. And to someone that didn't know and just walked into the room, that's probably what they may think, since the projector is nestled behind the center channel.

I had a 92" rear projection TV before this and to my understanding, the screen was lenticular as well, but the off-axis viewing with it was pretty bad, compared to this UST front projection system(rptv's were basically UST's hitting a mirror in a fully enclosed cabinet).
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post #267 of 289 Old 01-15-2020, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
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Right I'd be interested to see what kind of image that provides.


Heh right, but how is that, is there no optical gain layer due to the close proximity of the projector to the screen?


Material in a shade of black

paint mixes like:
8oz FolkArt Metallic Sequin Black
8oz Water-based Matte polyurethane
8oz water

front/rear projection materials like these:
https://strongmdi.com/products/blackview/
https://www.gerriets.com/us/optiblac...jection-screen
Though these would need a velvet layer directly behind them.

My hope for the future is shades similar to those with rgb laser dlp. I think that would make for a very nice image with high ambient light.


Well... if there isn't space for a tv, but there is space for a retractable screen, then its certainly plausible... within reason and tempering expectations within the realms of physics, you can still have a very nice display. The way technology has evolved just in these last couple of years, there's lots of methods to prevent washout, black levels in ambient light have gotten better, and I don't see that slowing, i.e. we'll be seeing darker materials with brighter projectors, and with micro/nano manufacturing, well see materials like the SSE Ambient-Visionaire Black in retractable format in the future as well.


Putting the sample up on the screen at 1.4-1.5 throw ratios, no hotspotting, no sparkle, perfectly resolved pixel structure free of any artifacting.
Not knowledgeable enough, but I believe lenticlular UST's don't hotspot because of the way the reflection is being done versus an angular ALR.
There might be a raising of black levels but with the projector being so close and bright (even with a regular screen) this might be already happening. They do work with low gain screens, so that might offset it.

I'd like to be surprised, but I don't see how a projector could match a TV in a medium/high ambient light environment. It might be more then acceptable, but still not TV level.
Until this happens (if ever) TV tech or something else might come along like AR that would make projection based systems obsolete.
A drop down TV like a projector screen would be nice.

Can hotspots be judged just by samples? It may not sparkle, but unless it's tested with an entire screen I don't know if it can be properly evaluated. A picture could be taken with the same in the center and on the edges and compared, but the differences might be due to other factors, like uniformity.

LE:

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Originally Posted by bdht View Post
I couldn't say for sure as I don't have direct experience with longer throws, and they dont seem to publish mininum throws to avoid any hotspotting. For instance Da-Lite reports the Parallax 0.8 as a minimum recommended throw ratio of 1.5, and I don't see hotspotting, or at least not pronounced hotspotting(i.e. very faint) at 1.4.

The only way I know of know for sure is to get a sample, put it in place where the screen is or would be, and with the projector on move the sample away from you and see if the light level changes.

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post #268 of 289 Old 01-15-2020, 06:40 PM
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Nope, blue laser yellow phosphur and a color wheel. No rgb laser affordable front projection yet, theres the lg ust, the hisense ust, but after that youre talking large venue projectors.

BenQ LU950 appears to be the same.
How can you tell what type of laser is it?
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post #269 of 289 Old 01-15-2020, 06:43 PM
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BenQ LU950 appears to be the same.
How can you tell what type of laser is it?
Find a diagram of the internals? If it doesn't say idk
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post #270 of 289 Old 01-15-2020, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
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I'd like to be surprised, but I don't see how a projector could match a TV in a medium/high ambient light environment. It might be more then acceptable, but still not TV level.
Until this happens (if ever) TV tech or something else might come along like AR that would make projection based systems obsolete.
Ya I dont see front projection matching emissive displays at least in terms of black levels/contrast. Rgb dlp still has a superior gamut and also mtf/pixel response, which can be useful for sports or gaming. Id imagine retractable/rollable tvs will hit well before fp could provide comparable contrast though, even with new screen technology and ultra bright projectors.

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Can hotspots be judged just by samples? It may not sparkle, but unless it's tested with an entire screen I don't know if it can be properly evaluated. A picture could be taken with the same in the center and on the edges and compared, but the differences might be due to other factors, like uniformity.
Since hotspotting is relative to your eyes and the lens, you can have a sample at your screen location, look at it straight on and move off the side and see the illuminance of the material change.

Once you have an idea of the various materials and their requirements, you can just hit a sample with a flashlight and gauge what the recommended throw ratio would be as its entirely how matte the material is.
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