Investigation into borderless screens. - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 9 Old 03-04-2019, 12:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Investigation into borderless screens.

I have for the last 5 years on and off experimented with what I call a stealth screen, screen wall, or borderless screen. I have used this concept exclusively for the last year and my plan is it will remain my normal method of presentation going forward. The main reason for starting this thread is to see if others are doing this or something similar and to overall discuss the concepts.

The screen type can be DIY or commercial and as such I’m posting it here for wider visibility and discussion. Of course the screen design and function plays a large part in how well this works but I don’t want the thread to become a workshop in DIY paint mixes or particular commercial screens or projectors. It is impossible though to talk about borderless screens without talking about the screen surface the room environment or the projector used though and I understand that and how each of them affect the outcome.

Borderless screens are about pros and cons. To clarify what the reason would be to use one it is about the media we watch and both the changing aspect ratio and changing size of our images. I will also add a third possibility for using one is changing location of the image.

We all know movies come in different shapes they started out as 4:3 (1.33:1) as did TV and later changed to the Academy AR of 1.375:1 there were many ARs tried and the industry kind of ended up with Flat of 1.85:1 and Scope 2.35:1. Then came along IMAX 1.43:1 and last the new IMAX I call IMAX1.89 that is 1.89:1. Much of the prestige TV that we stream now is 2.0:1. Some movies mix and match ARs like First Man changes between Scope and IMAX1.89 or The Grand Budapest Hotel switches back and forth between Academy, Flat and Scope depending on the time period of the movie. The Life of Pi has you thinking you are watching a scope movie and then fish jump out of the water and off the image and into the black bars. By far most movies still stick to one AR though and the container we get them in max out as a 16:9 rectangle. Most projectors are that native as are TVs and TV signals and BD and UHD BD. So until it changes we have 16:9 to deal with as the max AR it all has to fit inside.

Keep in mind 16:9 is an AR not a size. TV sets have a fixed size projectors don’t because they have zoom. All these movies and ARs above have intended sizes (somewhat) based on how far you are sitting from them. Of course commercial theaters have many rows of seats so we can all customize our visual immersion to suit our tastes. But in general most people want to experience an IMAX movie like the director intended as more immersive than a made for TV movie say.

Modern projectors many of them have the ability to automatically adjust zoom, focus and offset with the push of a button to any of a dozen presets you program in, and of course the media we play dictates its AR. There are many regimented methods of presentation CIW, CIH, CIA, CIH+IMAX and on and on, or you can make up your own changing say to liking Game of Thrones in your face and hugely immersive and regular TV more modest sized.

All that is holding us back from this is one thing. Gray Bars.

Most theater enthusiasts feel the need to mask these Gray Bars and doing what is suggested above requires 4way masking top and bottom right and left. To do it manually is a chore and to do it automatically for a screen size most want these days for an IMAX feel to movies might cost $10,000 or more for a store bought solution.

So hand in hand with borderless screens is what I call self-masking. That’s when the combination of the projector being able to cast a fairly dark black where there is no image and a screen that allows for that projected black to look dark and then a room that controls light well enough to convince you that the area around the image is black or good enough black you don’t mind it, or can get used to it, or feel the advantage outweighs the disadvantages.

Most commercial theaters don’t worry about masking any longer, as they are just lazy and don’t care about presentation. Most moviegoers have learned to ignore gray bars as they are used to them on TV now and don’t really know to be bothered by them. Then there are all these movies that flip between AR that are imposable to mask for and no one seems to notice.

For me I found an acceptable point with a good dark room painted dark colors and a dark gray screen and a projector, DLP that has the Dark Chip 3 technology. I size my screen as I like it for content and raise and lower the image depending on my seating preference that day. The pros outweigh the cons.

What say you all?

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post #2 of 9 Old 03-09-2019, 07:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Want to thank all for their input. At about 5 days and 120 views and no replies you answered my questions as to, is there any interest in stealth screen walls as a borderless method of presentation.

There is none.

I posted a somewhat similar inquiry in another forum as to how people were dealing with future IMAX Enhanced media coming out and the high cost of automatic 4way masking systems and if anyone was considering self-masking or other as a solution and also found there was no interest in the subject.

So I’m going to stop talking about the subject the subject of self-masking and wait to see if and when IMAX Enhanced takes hold what the budget solution will be. Dual screens is another great solution given the reality of just CIH+IMAX as the goal. Another solution is removable upper and lower panels.

I will continue doing stealth for now.

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post #3 of 9 Old 01-13-2020, 11:10 AM
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Hi. Could you post photo of such wall with self masking screen? What if black wall + Black Diamond Screen? I'm plan to buy uhz65 ph which has vertical shift but no auto zoom or lens memmory.
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post #4 of 9 Old 01-13-2020, 12:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi. Could you post photo of such wall with self masking screen? What if black wall + Black Diamond Screen? I'm plan to buy uhz65 ph which has vertical shift but no auto zoom or lens memmory.
I was wrong it only took 10 months for anyone to comment. Haha

I don’t know what a screen shot would show except an image framed in almost blackness, but I will look and see what I can find.

The concept I was asking about was what I call a stealth screen and if you have the ability to control zoom, shift and focus programmable or not, movies come in different ARs and those will fill the screen area to different extents not to mention TV and movies more and more changing ARs all the time. Lately more and more commercials are being shot in scope and lots of TV streaming is 2.0:1 AR so there are black bars constantly.

If you want a borderless screen a black wall behind that is a great idea, but that’s a different concept than a stealth screen wall.

Here is a couple photos from a TV show and a movie I found I just snapped with my cell phone cam. What is outside the image is exactly the same as what the image is being projected to.

Thanks for reading and commenting.
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post #5 of 9 Old 01-13-2020, 09:15 PM
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If I understand this correctly, the whole wall is the screen, forgoeing any type of framing? I could see that being beneficial when you dont have a display that can do black, as the border can act as a reference for the blacks you should be seeing. Especially like you said with a dark gray surface and a more non reflective room. Do you find any lack of perceived black level/contrast, where the framing would do the opposite and trick your eyes into seeing black areas of the image as darker than they are? Do you find the screen wall really lights up in higher adl content?

How do you find the black of the image blends into the surrounding area. Ive been watching content without masking lately and when its actual black being projected(or not projected) it can be somewhat distracting when that black is the same as the unmasked area. Masking in that instance tends to offset that I think.

I use a 16:9 retractable screen and constant image width since the content I watch is pretty split between 16:9 and 2.35. Very simple to raise the screen and I have a single top masking panel thats very easy to pull down in place and may try to motorize it in the future.
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post #6 of 9 Old 01-14-2020, 09:14 AM - Thread Starter
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If I understand this correctly, the whole wall is the screen, forgoeing any type of framing? I could see that being beneficial when you dont have a display that can do black, as the border can act as a reference for the blacks you should be seeing. Especially like you said with a dark gray surface and a more non reflective room. Do you find any lack of perceived black level/contrast, where the framing would do the opposite and trick your eyes into seeing black areas of the image as darker than they are? Do you find the screen wall really lights up in higher adl content?

How do you find the black of the image blends into the surrounding area. Ive been watching content without masking lately and when its actual black being projected(or not projected) it can be somewhat distracting when that black is the same as the unmasked area. Masking in that instance tends to offset that I think.

I use a 16:9 retractable screen and constant image width since the content I watch is pretty split between 16:9 and 2.35. Very simple to raise the screen and I have a single top masking panel thats very easy to pull down in place and may try to motorize it in the future.
I will try and answer your questions in order and throw in a little commentary as I go. Thanks for reading and asking also.

My whole wall is my screen and there is no defined AR or size other than the max zoom/throw distance will provide. As it is that is also the size 16:9 that fills my requirement for IMAX and also fills my width requirement for scope. Because there is no frame I’m free to use vertical offset to position the image at any height I like. I often raise the image if reclined and lower it if seated upright for example. When I use my system in the HTPC mode (I switch back and forth depending if I’m playing hard media or doing internet streaming or OTA etc that the PC handles well.) in the HTPC mode I can leave the projectors zoom and throw at IMAX and then digitally manipulate borderless windows on the black workspace. So I can virtually open several windows at once and do a PIP type thing. For serious watching I use the more classic approach.

My best on screen black is going to be the same or slightly lighter than anything outside the image. My screen is a Lambertian 50% reflective DIY gray paint and my ambient level is whatever gets reflected off the treated room. Serious viewing is 100% lights out, but less serious viewing I add controlled task lighting back and that’s when the gray screen helps most. The only drawback is I need double the projected lumens because of the 50% attenuation of the screen wall.

I have always wondered about the well known effect of a dark black boarder helping with perception of black within the image. for me when I have this near absolute black in my vision I do a comparison with that black and the best black the projector can produce and it only points out the short comings of the projector. when the boarder black is the exact same as the image black I forget about it and let the true perception go to work.

I don’t find the screen wall lights up on high adl content because with the rest of the room treated it does a good job attenuating the reflected light before it has a chance to get back to the screen. It is not the same as a black front wall though but it is outside any critical sight lines and with time I just don’t think about it.

As you can see from the second photo I posted his hair and coat blend into the self boarder fine and without that screen boarder telling you the self boarder isn’t as black your brain shuts off to thinking about it. Of course if I’m showing a scope movie there will always be that telltale black bar as the wall is always going to be that smidgen darker than projectors black. That depends a lot on the projector and IMO the gray screen helps here also. My projector is DLP dark chip 3.

What got me thinking about it is with showing movies like Dunkirk or The Aeronaut, Aquaman etc with AR changes between IMAX and scope or The Grand Budapest Hotel that changes both directions. These moves allude being masked. I had many guests that were casual movie goers watch these movies and after the movie I would ask if the movie was distracting with the AR changing and lack of masking? No one not one single casual movie watcher had any clue what I was asking and most never noticed the AR changing and a few argued it didn’t happen. They all said the PQ was splendid and better than any of the local theaters they have been to. So I got to thinking is it just me? Do I think about this stuff too much? Is my knowledge of presentation affecting my ability to just enjoy the movie? Around the same time I was learning how much I like immersion compared to family members and how some movies seemed to scream for immersive viewing and other seems even to me to be more entertaining not as immersive. Then I have 3000+ DVDs that still look ok and I’m not tossing them or buying them again higher res. I noticed playing them still large but not huge made the lack of resolution ok when scaled up and played slightly less immersive. It’s a good compromise. So for me this Stealth method is working pretty good I have a method of zooming that moves the projector and without masking I can change immersion levels in less than 5 seconds and I do it all the time.

I have slowly forgot about all the above and now just watch and enjoy my movies. I did get pulled to a commercial theater a couple weeks ago to see Ford vs Ferrari and when I sat down knowing the movie was scope and seeing the theater had some odd AR screen I thought here we go. The gray bars were 10 times as bright as mine on the white screen the black levels of the movie were not that great etc but I enjoyed the movie and the people I was with, but I can’t wait to get my hands on it at home.

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post #7 of 9 Old 01-14-2020, 03:23 PM
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Dont mention it, I think that sounds fascinating, I mustve been more active in the audio forums at the time and missed when you first posted this. I think our elaborate projection setups are quite interesting, I'm about to change my setup and use 2 projectors(both led dlp) and 2 screens to provide optimal low ambient light and high ambient light viewing, while its partially treated its still a small room(task lighting really spills onto the screen), so I have rolldown shades on either side of the screen with lamps on either sides of the shades to provide a kind of bias lighting without any direct light hitting the screen, than the dark gray screen offsets some of the low ambient light and maintains a better black level. The room and screen with lights off and low apl content provides a black level very close to the masking.

Alot of what youre describing with different content and various levels of immersion reminds me of Rob Hahns theater, where all the 4way masking opens wide for epic panavision70 films and then closes down small for less immersive content. Ive often thought that would be useful especially since I watch alot of anime/cartoons and having a smaller image could be beneficial, and then of course at times id love for the screen to be 3' wider.

I believe I remember reading earlier that you had the projector on a slide. What projector is it? Its dlp does it have a motorized lens and lens memory?

I would love to be able to lower and raise the image at times hah its in a position thats better for reclined and im space limited so no eatting and watching things, better to eat int he dining room anyway right :/

I use an htpc as well so I can grasp the various windowing functionality. Kind of a side thought, do you find the windows desktop to be overly bright compared to normal video content? Kind of an issue I run into is wanting to use a low lamp power preset for the desktop and I have lights in the room on a remote to turn on/off easily when going back and forth. Windows has dark modes now but even that can be uncomfortable at just 16fl, not even necessarily white folders just any desktop level stuff is very bright. I really like the way you describe a black workspace, do you just keep a black background and hide the taskbar?

Do you use madvr for upscaling dvds? Ive often been shocked at that video quality from good quality dvds

The most violent aspect ratio switching I can remember is Transformers: The Last Knight, but even that after watching for a bit I seemed to get used to it its strange. Its definitely you though ;] or those like you, like me, i think theres just an analytical mentality and we find alot of various aspects of av rendering and presentation to be interesting that alot of people dont consider. While it can be distracting while youre learning and figuring out what you like and observing technicalities instead of watching a movie, like you said you eventually settle in and enjoy the content.

With the output from lasers I think we'll be able to move to lower gain/blacker projection surfaces which will really improve that masking less screen wall, and without having to install dedicated electrical lines and worry about exhausting heat from the projectors out of the room, if something like the lg hu85la is able to put out 1600lumens calibrated with 100% color brightness and a native p3+ gamut using only 300w I think thats a good sign of whats to come.
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post #8 of 9 Old 01-14-2020, 04:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Dont mention it, I think that sounds fascinating, I mustve been more active in the audio forums at the time and missed when you first posted this. I think our elaborate projection setups are quite interesting, I'm about to change my setup and use 2 projectors(both led dlp) and 2 screens to provide optimal low ambient light and high ambient light viewing, while its partially treated its still a small room(task lighting really spills onto the screen), so I have rolldown shades on either side of the screen with lamps on either sides of the shades to provide a kind of bias lighting without any direct light hitting the screen, than the dark gray screen offsets some of the low ambient light and maintains a better black level. The room and screen with lights off and low apl content provides a black level very close to the masking.

Alot of what youre describing with different content and various levels of immersion reminds me of Rob Hahns theater, where all the 4way masking opens wide for epic panavision70 films and then closes down small for less immersive content. Ive often thought that would be useful especially since I watch alot of anime/cartoons and having a smaller image could be beneficial, and then of course at times id love for the screen to be 3' wider.

I believe I remember reading earlier that you had the projector on a slide. What projector is it? Its dlp does it have a motorized lens and lens memory?

I would love to be able to lower and raise the image at times hah its in a position thats better for reclined and im space limited so no eatting and watching things, better to eat int he dining room anyway right :/

I use an htpc as well so I can grasp the various windowing functionality. Kind of a side thought, do you find the windows desktop to be overly bright compared to normal video content? Kind of an issue I run into is wanting to use a low lamp power preset for the desktop and I have lights in the room on a remote to turn on/off easily when going back and forth. Windows has dark modes now but even that can be uncomfortable at just 16fl, not even necessarily white folders just any desktop level stuff is very bright. I really like the way you describe a black workspace, do you just keep a black background and hide the taskbar?

Do you use madvr for upscaling dvds? Ive often been shocked at that video quality from good quality dvds

The most violent aspect ratio switching I can remember is Transformers: The Last Knight, but even that after watching for a bit I seemed to get used to it its strange. Its definitely you though ;] or those like you, like me, i think theres just an analytical mentality and we find alot of various aspects of av rendering and presentation to be interesting that alot of people dont consider. While it can be distracting while youre learning and figuring out what you like and observing technicalities instead of watching a movie, like you said you eventually settle in and enjoy the content.

With the output from lasers I think we'll be able to move to lower gain/blacker projection surfaces which will really improve that masking less screen wall, and without having to install dedicated electrical lines and worry about exhausting heat from the projectors out of the room, if something like the lg hu85la is able to put out 1600lumens calibrated with 100% color brightness and a native p3+ gamut using only 300w I think thats a good sign of whats to come.
I think you get my mindset pretty well.

As to my “HTPC” concept. My room is realm and it is a small space single row of 4 seats and my seat is the far left seat. I’m sitting in it now typing this. I built a swing away arm that holds my laptop and right in front of me while in my movie watching seat next to me is my snack table and also even a printer all within reach. The swing in table also has a small USB light so even if the room is totally dark and I want to check something on line I can do it without bothering others watching a movie. What I do is leave my monitor as screen one and make the projector screen two. I made my workspace at both locations 0,0,0 black I use an open source media player called VLC and that’s the only window located on screen two. Being open source people have designed all kinds of skins for it and I downloaded one called black voodoo and it has no frame and is pure black. The controls are very dark gray and only pop up with mouse movement. It is bare bones simple and once expanded to full size there is nothing but movie on the projector. If I size that window and move it around side to side or up and down everything not image is projected black.

Rob Hahn is the man myth and legend and my theater is nothing like his except we share the same ideas about variable presentation and how to best watch different types of cinematography. There is a current thread in the dedicated HT build forum now as his theater just received the HT of the decade award and in that thread I asked him some questions and he and Keith Yates both gave some amazing answers. Well worth the read. Where he is inspirational to people building the sky is the limit theaters, I would hope to inspire maybe the guy that has a couple grand and wants to impress his kids with something great they can afford and feel they spent much more.

My projector I bought new for $499 it is now out of production a Viewsonic Pro7827HD the screen is $25 worth of paint and elbow grease and my 5.2 sound is some very nice quality DIY speakers and a AVR and a old carver amp. Everything old school.

My projector has a manual offset and not enough zoom even to do CIH, but I mounted it on the ceiling on an inclined DIY track with the projector counterbalanced. The projector movement is manual as I have a pole with a hook I can push and pull it to change size and it has enough DOF to the optics that nothing needs adjusting over the full zoom. One advantage is, as the image gets smaller it gets brighter and as we watch TV smaller that allows for more light in the room. It’s all automatic and the projector stays in eco mode.

It is nice for streaming and web media and some DVD/BD. I also just select another input on the projector and then the PC is off the system and it’s a conventional AVR setup BD player , OTA tuner etc. I go back and forth because the PC is older and has some limitations. When I upgrade the PC I will make sure it has all the bells and whistles. I like the ability to surf the web and when I find something worth watching big I can just send it to the projector. Eventually I want to include home security and things like facetime etc into the projectors tasks.

It is really a media room on a budget where I’m trying to get everything I can out of what I have. That and variable presentation and IMAX are very much things I really enjoy. It is really nice when my sister and husband come for movie night they are very much back 1/3 of the theater folks. If we went to a real movie we would sit back there where they like to be. With my setup I have virtual rows to pick from. When I’m alone I like IMAX immersion of some content and I just virtually move my row closer.
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post #9 of 9 Old 01-14-2020, 05:11 PM
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I made my workspace at both locations 0,0,0 black I use an open source media player called VLC and that’s the only window located on screen two. Being open source people have designed all kinds of skins for it and I downloaded one called black voodoo and it has no frame and is pure black. The controls are very dark gray and only pop up with mouse movement. It is bare bones simple and once expanded to full size there is nothing but movie on the projector. If I size that window and move it around side to side or up and down everything not image is projected black.
Ahh I appreciate you sharing this, I need to try something like that. I use mpc-hc, which is customizable as well and I know how to remove the frame and what not, when using the exclusive fullscreen mode it changes the seek bar, but I like normal windowed mode. Sounds like I'll be able to relax the brightness a bit.

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Originally Posted by bud16415 View Post
Rob Hahn is the man myth and legend and my theater is nothing like his except we share the same ideas about variable presentation and how to best watch different types of cinematography. There is a current thread in the dedicated HT build forum now as his theater just received the HT of the decade award and in that thread I asked him some questions and he and Keith Yates both gave some amazing answers. Well worth the read. Where he is inspirational to people building the sky is the limit theaters, I would hope to inspire maybe the guy that has a couple grand and wants to impress his kids with something great they can afford and feel they spent much more.
Hah! Ill check that thread out. I feel the same, I generally keep to myself but I like sharing ideas and setups in case it will provide someone with an idea or aid them in their setup.

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My projector I bought new for $499 it is now out of production a Viewsonic Pro7827HD the screen is $25 worth of paint and elbow grease and my 5.2 sound is some very nice quality DIY speakers and a AVR and a old carver amp. Everything old school.
Well paired components and some good planning really make a difference, even on a budget.

I started out with a used benq w1070 and a $60 motorized screen, bargain bin polk m30s, and a refurbed avr, and just at that point enjoyed the setup more than the commercial theaters. Now with the sim2 mico and polk lsims, everything isolated and conditioned, its more of a reference screening room, and practically everything bought used patiently watching ebay and classifieds, it's amazing the quality of equipment available to us at affordable prices.

I mean, look at this thing they're selling for 300-400 shipped... amazing
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Projection-...AAAOSwqR5eFL6G

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My projector has a manual offset and not enough zoom even to do CIH, but I mounted it on the ceiling on an inclined DIY track with the projector counterbalanced. The projector movement is manual as I have a pole with a hook I can push and pull it to change size and it has enough DOF to the optics that nothing needs adjusting over the full zoom. One advantage is, as the image gets smaller it gets brighter and as we watch TV smaller that allows for more light in the room. It’s all automatic and the projector stays in eco mode.
That's wild. I never thought about how a projector like that would stay focused as you slide the projector back and forth. Really unique system.
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