Tab Tension - Best bang for the buck - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 34 Old 08-13-2019, 04:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Tab Tension - Best bang for the buck

I've been using a 100" manual pull down 16:9 screen from Elite for the last 10 years. It curls on the edges and is starting to get 2 imprints the length of the screen vertically.



I am looking to upgrade to a motorized tab tension screen. I wish I could go fixed screen, but the room isn't set up for that.



What are the best bang for the buck tab tension wall mount screen in the 106"-120" range? I am using a Panasonic AE4000 1080p projector. I have been looking at upgrading to the Epson 5040UB 4K projector.



The room is a living room with light color paint and white ceiling. Will be used at night time for movies only.



I have been looking at the Elunevision High Definition Cinema White – 1.2 Gain screen material for $699 Canadian $$.



The EluneVision Reference Studio 4K Tab Tensioned Motorized Screen - 1.0 Gain is $1250 Canadian $$. - Double the price but claims a perfectly smooth finish with no texturing.



What else should I be looking at?
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post #2 of 34 Old 08-13-2019, 05:46 PM
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https://m.made-in-china.com/product/...836716805.html

I have the reference 100el and the black crystal, you definately want a dark grey in that room.

The 100el is not a perfectly smooth finish with no texture or artifacting. Elunevision sells the same pvc material as elite, silver ticket, carls, etc thats made in china anyway, they just put it in a better case than what elite sells, but its still overpriced. They remove the black backing as well which leaves strange lines across the screen that only show up in high apl scenes, and it makes it so light behind the screen illuminates the screen.

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post #3 of 34 Old 08-13-2019, 05:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by bdht View Post
https://m.made-in-china.com/product/...836716805.html

I have the reference 100el and the black crystal, you definately want a dark grey in that room.

The 100el is not a perfectly smooth finish with no texture or artifacting. Elunevision sells the same pvc material as elite, silver ticket, carls, etc thats made in china anyway, they just put it in a better case than what elite sells, but its still overpriced and may have manufacturing defects.

I kind of figured most of the low-mid range screens are the same with a different name on them. I read about grey screens years and years ago but I never really thought I'd need one. With a low lumen output projector, wouldn't the picture be too dull?
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post #4 of 34 Old 08-13-2019, 06:12 PM
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Ya thats the trick. either need a dark material with a very bright projector(like a .4 gain grey with a 3-4000lumen projector), or for normal projectors, a dark material with a gain layer(like most alr screens) and deal with either some artifacting(shimmer sparkle texture etc) or poor viewing angles.
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post #5 of 34 Old 08-13-2019, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 89fast5oh View Post
With a low lumen output projector, wouldn't the picture be too dull?
to clarify a little bit, alot of the alr screens have close to, similar, or even higher brightness than the standard 1.0 gain white screen.

the brighter the screen the more artifacting(sparkle) it will exhibit).

the more the screen fights light from the sides the worse the viewing angles(i.e. the sides of the screen will be darker than the middle)

figuring out exact light levels can be tricky, the projectors highest lumens in its color calibrated mode, the light output at different ends of the lense zoom range, the gain of the screen, sdr hdr or 3d material, ambient light, reflections from room surfaces.

Heres an example,

I have a BenQ W1070, in Smart Eco at mid zoom it puts out about 1200(1300 with brilliant color on)lumens, I have a 92" xy screen black crystal, they say its .8 gain. I have to use a nd2 filter to cut the light in half for sdr material, and I turn off brilliant color for brighter content(cartoons etc).

This calculator https://www.omnicalculator.com/other/projector says thats about 17-20fl. For HDR and 3d or high ambient light you generally want 30+ fl. However, if I take off the nd filter, the screen is still a bit too dark for 3d where the 1.1gain white screen was better.
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post #6 of 34 Old 08-14-2019, 08:14 AM
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Even motorized tab tension screens can develop waves over time so it's important not to go so cheap as to buy one that lacks adjustable tab tensioning that will allow you to adjust out any irregularities that might develop.
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post #7 of 34 Old 08-14-2019, 08:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
Even motorized tab tension screens can develop waves over time so it's important not to go so cheap as to buy one that lacks adjustable tab tensioning that will allow you to adjust out any irregularities that might develop.
I just looked up both of the Elunevision screens. They appear to have adjustable tab tensioning. I can't find mention of adjustments on the Silver Ticket Screen page.
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post #8 of 34 Old 08-14-2019, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by 89fast5oh View Post
I just looked up both of the Elunevision screens. They appear to have adjustable tab tensioning. I can't find mention of adjustments on the Silver Ticket Screen page.
I would contact Silver Ticket support and tell them that it's important for them to specify on their website whether or not their tab tension screens have adjustable tensioning. Having built their reputation on fixed screens, Silver Ticket is fairly new to retractable screens with tab tensioning. Their tab tension electric screen pricing looks to be competitive as long as the tensioning is adjustable and overall quality is comparable to their fixed screens.
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post #9 of 34 Old 08-14-2019, 09:45 AM
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I just checked the Silver Screen PDF manual and the last question on it is: What if my screen material is wrinkled or wavy? Their answer is: Allow the screen to hang in the down position for a few days.

That means it most likely doesn't have adjustable tab tensioning or they would have included instructions on how to make the adjustments. Allowing a retractable screen to hang in the down position for a few days is no guarantee waves and wrinkles will be corrected. It's more of a gamble to go with a less expensive model that lacks adjustable tab tensioning. We won't really know how this screen will perform until a number of people have had them for a few years.
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post #10 of 34 Old 08-14-2019, 06:22 PM - Thread Starter
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I heard back from Silver Screen. This is what they had to say about the tab tensioned screens.

Thanks for contacting us. The tab tension is not designed to be adjusted. You can still adjust it, but the end use is not supposed to have to do so. The material is attached to the roll flat, so even without the string to pull on the tabs, the projection surface is designed to be flat. The tab tension is designed to prevent edge curl after years of use rather than provide a flat image. That said the string is elastic and tightened in the factory so you won't need to adjust it.

If you absolutely need to adjust it, you would need to unroll the material all the way to gain access to the screws to which the string is attached inside the casing. The screws are threaded into the metal roll (that everything rolls around). When you have access to this screw, you simply need to loosen it and then adjust the tension of the string. Tighten the screw again to lock the string into place
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post #11 of 34 Old 08-15-2019, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 89fast5oh View Post
... The tab tension is designed to prevent edge curl after years of use rather than provide a flat image. ...
Well that's different. I haven't seen any other tab tension screen that wasn't designed to provide a flat image. Not sure of the value of paying extra just to prevent edge curl. I've seen edge curl on retractable screens and it was only the black border that curled and not the image area, so no negative effect on the image. But I do give Silver Screen a lot of credit for giving detailed responses to consumer questions.
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post #12 of 34 Old 08-16-2019, 06:18 PM
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I have the Elunevision Reference 4K 120” 2.35 tab tensioned...previous to this I had the fixed ref 4K Elunevision...the material on the fixed version was flawlessly uniform and smooth...I would have expected the same on the Tab tensioned but I’m seeing slight roller marks on the screen...I’m unsure if they effect performance but the material doesn’t seem to be quite as uniform compared to the fixed, or perhaps I got a bad sample or perhaps if you want to spend $6k for the Stewart in Canada, it may be flawless...I’ve only had the screen for a couple weeks and am receiving good tech support from Elunevision...I’ll tackle the uniformity with them next week...picture with my JVC N7 looks phenom...

Video:JVC N7 Sony 85” 900F Sony 55” 900F
Audio: Paradigm Prestige 95, 55C, 15b Dual JL Audio D110
Receiver/Amp: Anthem 1120, Emotiva XPA-5 Gen 2
Source: Panasonic UB820, triple black velvet batcave
Screen:120” 2.35 Elunevision Tab tensioned motorized drop down screen;
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post #13 of 34 Old 08-16-2019, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by asharma View Post
I’m seeing slight roller marks on the screen.
Yup I believe thats from removing the black backing, they sent a replacement screen for me and it had the same effect so I just dealt with it, kind of distracting though, maybe less with a longer throw projector, for me sitting 8' using a w1070 it was very visible. If you look closely at their fixed frame reference 4k 100 and tab tensioned reference 4k 100 EL materials, the difference in texture should be easily seen, the fixed 100 material is textureless and the 100 EL has normal pvc texture like elites cinewhite
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post #14 of 34 Old 08-16-2019, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by asharma View Post
if you want to spend $6k for the Stewart in Canada, it may be flawless..
Stewarts neve and snomatte would be the cheapest minimal/no artifact retractable screens and its about half that cost, however, retractable screens are often going up in reflective rooms with ambient light, so its good to consider an alr screen.
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post #15 of 34 Old 08-16-2019, 07:08 PM
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Yup I believe thats from removing the black backing, they sent a replacement screen for me and it had the same effect so I just dealt with it, kind of distracting though, maybe less with a longer throw projector, for me sitting 8' using a w1070 it was very visible. If you look closely at their fixed frame reference 4k 100 and tab tensioned reference 4k 100 EL materials, the difference in texture should be easily seen, the fixed 100 material is textureless and the 100 EL has normal pvc texture like elites cinewhite
Thanks for sharing. What does the EL signify for tab tensioned? I was told by Elunevision they were the exact same material...I can tell you, as you mentioned, they don’t seem to have the same uniformity...

Also are u suggesting the roller marks are from the black on the back of the screen getting on the front of the screen?

I started adjusting tension with the bottom dial as the manual suggested, but Tech support told me it’s the top dial...now I feel I’ve messed with the factory set bottom dial and don’t know what I changed...any insights? Thanks

Video:JVC N7 Sony 85” 900F Sony 55” 900F
Audio: Paradigm Prestige 95, 55C, 15b Dual JL Audio D110
Receiver/Amp: Anthem 1120, Emotiva XPA-5 Gen 2
Source: Panasonic UB820, triple black velvet batcave
Screen:120” 2.35 Elunevision Tab tensioned motorized drop down screen;
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post #16 of 34 Old 08-16-2019, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdht View Post
Stewarts neve and snomatte would be the cheapest minimal/no artifact retractable screens and its about half that cost, however, retractable screens are often going up in reflective rooms with ambient light, so its good to consider an alr screen.
Thanks, I priced the Stewart Neve 125” Tab tensioned in Canada...$5300 retail...BTW, I’m in a bat cave

Video:JVC N7 Sony 85” 900F Sony 55” 900F
Audio: Paradigm Prestige 95, 55C, 15b Dual JL Audio D110
Receiver/Amp: Anthem 1120, Emotiva XPA-5 Gen 2
Source: Panasonic UB820, triple black velvet batcave
Screen:120” 2.35 Elunevision Tab tensioned motorized drop down screen;
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post #17 of 34 Old 08-16-2019, 09:01 PM
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Originally Posted by asharma View Post
Thanks for sharing. What does the EL signify for tab tensioned? I was told by Elunevision they were the exact same material...I can tell you, as you mentioned, they don’t seem to have the same uniformity...

Also are u suggesting the roller marks are from the black on the back of the screen getting on the front of the screen?

I started adjusting tension with the bottom dial as the manual suggested, but Tech support told me it’s the top dial...now I feel I’ve messed with the factory set bottom dial and don’t know what I changed...any insights? Thanks
EL, I don't know... elastic maybe lol Elunevision says they're the same but theyre not, at least from the closeups of the fixed material I've seen.

Does your's have a black backing? mine didn't, the back of the screen is white and you can see for instance the light from a tv behind the screen on the front of the screen. Maybe the close horizontal faint marks are from removing the black backing, as they're not roller lines from the actual roller, any of those are further spaced out and dissipate quickly after the screen unrolled.

There are 2 tensioners, one for the string running down the screen and one going into the weight bar, you don't want them too tight, it should give slightly when placing a finger on the string.

Quote:
Originally Posted by asharma View Post
Thanks, I priced the Stewart Neve 125” Tab tensioned in Canada...$5300 retail...BTW, I’m in a bat cave
5300...
https://www.projectorscreen.com/stor...-1-1-Gain.html

Ya if your space is non reflective and can hit black then whites the way to go.
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post #18 of 34 Old 08-17-2019, 03:38 AM
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Originally Posted by bdht View Post
EL, I don't know... elastic maybe lol Elunevision says they're the same but theyre not, at least from the closeups of the fixed material I've seen.

Does your's have a black backing? mine didn't, the back of the screen is white and you can see for instance the light from a tv behind the screen on the front of the screen. Maybe the close horizontal faint marks are from removing the black backing, as they're not roller lines from the actual roller, any of those are further spaced out and dissipate quickly after the screen unrolled.

There are 2 tensioners, one for the string running down the screen and one going into the weight bar, you don't want them too tight, it should give slightly when placing a finger on the string.


5300...
https://www.projectorscreen.com/stor...-1-1-Gain.html

Ya if your space is non reflective and can hit black then whites the way to go.
Thanks...yes mine has a black backing...my actual product # is EV-TC3-120-1.0-2.35 (Reference Tab-Tensioned Motorized Screen)

Yes, the roller lines are further spaced out, from what I can tell...mine don’t dissipate or disappear tho...to really see them, I need to stand parallel to the screen and look down the width of the screen...they are definitely there but I’m not sure if they actually impact the picture quality...i will discuss with tech support next week

Thanks for the info on the tensioners...to be clear, 2 - 4mm hex pods inset into the left and right sides of the weight bar?
What does the one going into the weight bar actually do? Because the instruction manual was wrong, I initially started adjusting the weight bar string but only on one side but didn’t touch the other side so now they are not adjusted the same...I’ve now adjusted the string tension running down the screen on both sides ok but at least should equally adjust the weight bar string if I understood what it actually did...any insight would be appreciated...

Video:JVC N7 Sony 85” 900F Sony 55” 900F
Audio: Paradigm Prestige 95, 55C, 15b Dual JL Audio D110
Receiver/Amp: Anthem 1120, Emotiva XPA-5 Gen 2
Source: Panasonic UB820, triple black velvet batcave
Screen:120” 2.35 Elunevision Tab tensioned motorized drop down screen;
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post #19 of 34 Old 08-17-2019, 08:08 AM
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There are limits to what even the best tab tension screens can achieve even when optimally adjusted. It's unrealistic to expect any retractable screen to be as flat and taut as a fixed screen that has stretchy screen material pulled tight over a full metal or wood frame.
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post #20 of 34 Old 08-17-2019, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
There are limits to what even the best tab tension screens can achieve even when optimally adjusted. It's unrealistic to expect any retractable screen to be as flat and taut as a fixed screen that has stretchy screen material pulled tight over a full metal or wood frame.
Thanks Dave, yes it definitely is a compromise...do u think it ultimately impacts video quality?

Video:JVC N7 Sony 85” 900F Sony 55” 900F
Audio: Paradigm Prestige 95, 55C, 15b Dual JL Audio D110
Receiver/Amp: Anthem 1120, Emotiva XPA-5 Gen 2
Source: Panasonic UB820, triple black velvet batcave
Screen:120” 2.35 Elunevision Tab tensioned motorized drop down screen;
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post #21 of 34 Old 08-17-2019, 09:00 AM
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Thanks Dave, yes it definitely is a compromise...do u think it ultimately impacts video quality?
Any imperfection in a screen impacts video image quality. The important question is how noticeable it is to the viewer. This of course varies by the magnitude of the imperfection and the sensitivity of the viewer. For example, some people are sensitive to the smallest waves in screens whereas others don't even notice them. If you know what to look for and go looking closely for an issue you may find something that you didn't previously notice.
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Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
Any imperfection in a screen impacts video image quality. The important question is how noticeable it is to the viewer. This of course varies by the magnitude of the imperfection and the sensitivity of the viewer. For example, some people are sensitive to the smallest waves in screens whereas others don't even notice them. If you know what to look for and go looking closely for an issue you may find something that you didn't previously notice.
Agreed. For me, and to the benefit of manufacturers, we can’t do a side by side a/b test...that’s the true test...for me, that’s the only measure I could use to determine impact...I’m just wondering if the $5000 Stewart screen would have roller marks...Thoughts? Thanks

Video:JVC N7 Sony 85” 900F Sony 55” 900F
Audio: Paradigm Prestige 95, 55C, 15b Dual JL Audio D110
Receiver/Amp: Anthem 1120, Emotiva XPA-5 Gen 2
Source: Panasonic UB820, triple black velvet batcave
Screen:120” 2.35 Elunevision Tab tensioned motorized drop down screen;
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post #23 of 34 Old 08-17-2019, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asharma View Post
Thanks...yes mine has a black backing...my actual product # is EV-TC3-120-1.0-2.35 (Reference Tab-Tensioned Motorized Screen)

Yes, the roller lines are further spaced out, from what I can tell...mine don’t dissipate or disappear tho...to really see them, I need to stand parallel to the screen and look down the width of the screen...they are definitely there but I’m not sure if they actually impact the picture quality...i will discuss with tech support next week
Oh how interesting, so theyre using backings now... That may be why your roller lines stand out more as well. I have the same screen, well a 92" 16:9, only with no black backing.

So, if you cant see the lines when watching something, then it doesnt matter, right? It would be most noticeable in bright scenes, panning scenes, more solid colors like a wall or sky. Btw most of the material(except elunevision...) provides samples, and you can typically get a good idea of texture artifacts and viewing angles from even an 8x11 sample.

Also, The throw angle of the projector can highlight screen imperfections as well, i.e. a longer throw with the projector in the middle of the screen will show less where as a short throw with the projector at the top of the screen will show more.

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I’m just wondering if the $5000 Stewart screen would have roller marks...Thoughts? Thanks
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
There are limits to what even the best tab tension screens can achieve even when optimally adjusted. It's unrealistic to expect any retractable screen to be as flat and taut as a fixed screen that has stretchy screen material pulled tight over a full metal or wood frame.
I can say that aside from manufacturing imperfections of the budget material, both the elunevision reference tab tensioned and xy screens black crystal in the ec2 case do sit very flat with no marks or imperfections due to the retractable design. Very flat screens. I would imagine a screen from Stewart, Da-Lite, or Seymour would be free of roller marks and any imperfections.

Quote:
Originally Posted by asharma View Post
Thanks for the info on the tensioners...to be clear, 2 - 4mm hex pods inset into the left and right sides of the weight bar?
What does the one going into the weight bar actually do? Because the instruction manual was wrong, I initially started adjusting the weight bar string but only on one side but didn’t touch the other side so now they are not adjusted the same...I’ve now adjusted the string tension running down the screen on both sides ok but at least should equally adjust the weight bar string if I understood what it actually did...any insight would be appreciated...
I couldnt say for sure I've never seen a schematic, maybe it prevents some bunching. If I remember I used a chopstick or something similar to lightly push on the weight bar screen to match tension.
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post #24 of 34 Old 08-17-2019, 11:39 AM
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I couldn't say for sure I've never seen a schematic, maybe it prevents some bunching. If I remember I used a chopstick or something similar to lightly push on the weight bar screen to match tension.
Thanks again for the info...I didn’t understand your last statement...I’m just trying to determine if u have 2 adjustment ports on both the left and right hand side of the weight bar...total 4 ports...Have you adjusted the left and right hand port that adjusts the weight bar? Just wondering if u did, what was the result, as I’m considering adjusting mine...Also, I’m trying to understand the chopstick reference...is it a fixed weight that u added to the weight bar to match the screen tension and is now permanent? Thanks...

Video:JVC N7 Sony 85” 900F Sony 55” 900F
Audio: Paradigm Prestige 95, 55C, 15b Dual JL Audio D110
Receiver/Amp: Anthem 1120, Emotiva XPA-5 Gen 2
Source: Panasonic UB820, triple black velvet batcave
Screen:120” 2.35 Elunevision Tab tensioned motorized drop down screen;
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post #25 of 34 Old 08-17-2019, 11:48 AM
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Ya 4 adjustments total. when they sent the replacement screen one of the weight bar lines had slack and one was broken. What I meant with the chopstick was just that you can use it to test the tension on the line. The tensioners dont need alot of adjustment, just make sure its taut but not tight, the line should give a little when you press on it.
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post #26 of 34 Old 08-17-2019, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdht View Post
Ya 4 adjustments total. when they sent the replacement screen one of the weight bar lines had slack and one was broken. What I meant with the chopstick was just that you can use it to test the tension on the line. The tensioners dont need alot of adjustment, just make sure its taut but not tight, the line should give a little when you press on it.
Ok, thanks, very much appreciate the info...I’m using a 4k JVC N7 with 13 foot throw, so I’m not noticing the roller bar lines when watching a movie...I guess my disappointment was I thought the screen material uniformity would be exactly the same as my previous Elunevision reference 4K screen and it doesn’t appear to be as I can see several inconsistencies across the screen, when looking across the width of the screen standing parallel to it...

Video:JVC N7 Sony 85” 900F Sony 55” 900F
Audio: Paradigm Prestige 95, 55C, 15b Dual JL Audio D110
Receiver/Amp: Anthem 1120, Emotiva XPA-5 Gen 2
Source: Panasonic UB820, triple black velvet batcave
Screen:120” 2.35 Elunevision Tab tensioned motorized drop down screen;

Last edited by asharma; 08-17-2019 at 11:56 AM.
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post #27 of 34 Old 08-17-2019, 12:36 PM
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post #28 of 34 Old 08-17-2019, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdht View Post
Ya 4 adjustments total. when they sent the replacement screen one of the weight bar lines had slack and one was broken. What I meant with the chopstick was just that you can use it to test the tension on the line. The tensioners dont need alot of adjustment, just make sure its taut but not tight, the line should give a little when you press on it.
Ok, so I’m really not understanding the tension bar adjustment...I loosened each tension bar adjustment port on each side...should there be less tension or something now in the tension bar? Thanks

Video:JVC N7 Sony 85” 900F Sony 55” 900F
Audio: Paradigm Prestige 95, 55C, 15b Dual JL Audio D110
Receiver/Amp: Anthem 1120, Emotiva XPA-5 Gen 2
Source: Panasonic UB820, triple black velvet batcave
Screen:120” 2.35 Elunevision Tab tensioned motorized drop down screen;
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post #29 of 34 Old 08-17-2019, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by asharma View Post
Ok, so I'm really not understanding the tension bar adjustment...I loosened each tension bar adjustment port on each side...should there be less tension or something now in the tension bar? Thanks
Can you see the string in the bar?
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post #30 of 34 Old 08-17-2019, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bdht View Post
Can you see the string in the bar?
Wow, thanks for the help! Yes, but on the right hand side only, when facing the screen...now what? Thanks again

Video:JVC N7 Sony 85” 900F Sony 55” 900F
Audio: Paradigm Prestige 95, 55C, 15b Dual JL Audio D110
Receiver/Amp: Anthem 1120, Emotiva XPA-5 Gen 2
Source: Panasonic UB820, triple black velvet batcave
Screen:120” 2.35 Elunevision Tab tensioned motorized drop down screen;
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