UST screens, ALR vs CLR vs Fresnel - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 13 Old 10-06-2019, 01:09 PM - Thread Starter
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UST screens, ALR vs CLR vs Fresnel

There has been a lot of discussion about UST projector screens so I thought a dedicated thread would be useful. I'm waiting on my P1 to get here on Wednesday before deciding which screen to buy. I've never seen any of these screens in person due to dealers being four or more hours away.

I currently have a Stewart Firehawk that is around twelve years old with no ALR. The picture is washed out during the day with my three year old Epson due to factors I can't control. I've done a lot of research and have talked to a few dealers but have gotten conflicting answers about various things. UST projectors also cause a lot of light to bounce of the ceiling due the angle from which the light is hitting the acrwwn so I don't think my Firehawk is going to be the best screen for UST.

Is CLR different from ALR? From discussions I've had with dealers CLR only blocks light from above while ALR screens that are made for UST projectors block light from above and below. Is this true? They both appear to be based of lenticular technology.

The lower end (or priced) ones seems to all be essentially the same but made by different manufacturer's like the Elite Aeon CLR, silver ticket, XY, and some other brands I'm probably leaving out. The various diagrams pretty much show the same thing as the ones from XY below.

The ones that claim to be ALR seem to block light from above and from the sides to only reflect light from back towards the user. These tend to have a lower gain (0.4, 0.5) than the brands mentioned above which are between 0.6 and 0.8 but also cost more. Grandview seems to be the only middle ground as the Da-lite parallax and SI are just to much for me. I can't justify spending more for a screen than the projector itself.

It's hard to determine from YouTube videos and various screen shots as they can't capture the true experience as seeing it yourself.

Lastly there is fresnel. These seem to be relatively new. DNP makes them but that's to high end. XY makes them as well but they are hard screen which makes shipping extremely difficult and costly. The only downsides are limited viewing angle, potential hot spotting and glare but they appear to handle ambient light much better and have a higher gain.

Even though you don't get the real experience from videos it's easy to tell from videos and screen shots that these screens do make a big difference for contrast and brightness with ambient light. I'm just trying to find out the best one that doesn't cost more than the projector.
Any feedback from anyone that has first hand experience would be greatly appreciated.




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Last edited by diggumsmax; 10-06-2019 at 02:58 PM.
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post #2 of 13 Old 10-06-2019, 04:42 PM
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UST screens, ALR vs CLR vs Fresnel

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Originally Posted by diggumsmax View Post
There has been a lot of discussion about UST projector screens so I thought a dedicated thread would be useful. I'm waiting on my P1 to get here on Wednesday before deciding which screen to buy. I've never seen any of these screens in person due to dealers being four or more hours away.

I currently have a Stewart Firehawk that is around twelve years old with no ALR. The picture is washed out during the day with my three year old Epson due to factors I can't control. I've done a lot of research and have talked to a few dealers but have gotten conflicting answers about various things. UST projectors also cause a lot of light to bounce of the ceiling due the angle from which the light is hitting the acrwwn so I don't think my Firehawk is going to be the best screen for UST.

Is CLR different from ALR? From discussions I've had with dealers CLR only blocks light from above while ALR screens that are made for UST projectors block light from above and below. Is this true? They both appear to be based of lenticular technology.

The lower end (or priced) ones seems to all be essentially the same but made by different manufacturer's like the Elite Aeon CLR, silver ticket, XY, and some other brands I'm probably leaving out. The various diagrams pretty much show the same thing as the ones from XY below.

The ones that claim to be ALR seem to block light from above and from the sides to only reflect light from back towards the user. These tend to have a lower gain (0.4, 0.5) than the brands mentioned above which are between 0.6 and 0.8 but also cost more. Grandview seems to be the only middle ground as the Da-lite parallax and SI are just to much for me. I can't justify spending more for a screen than the projector itself.

It's hard to determine from YouTube videos and various screen shots as they can't capture the true experience as seeing it yourself.

Lastly there is fresnel. These seem to be relatively new. DNP makes them but that's to high end. XY makes them as well but they are hard screen which makes shipping extremely difficult and costly. The only downsides are limited viewing angle, potential hot spotting and glare but they appear to handle ambient light much better and have a higher gain.

Even though you don't get the real experience from videos it's easy to tell from videos and screen shots that these screens do make a big difference for contrast and brightness with ambient light. I'm just trying to find out the best one that doesn't cost more than the projector.
Any feedback from anyone that has first hand experience would be greatly appreciated.




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While lenticular and Fresnel type screens are technically “ambient light rejecting” they do it in a much different way than non UST specific ALR screens do it. As your diagrams above demonstrate lenticular and fresnel screens used a three dimensional grid to obstruct light coming from most directions. Most ALR screens that aren’t UST specific achieve this in a totally different way. These non-UST ALR screens use dark material infused with highly reflective glass or metal particles. The darker surface in combination with a high gain causes the on axis light to reflect back disproportionately higher than the off axes light. The downside is these screens can be prone to hot spotting where the center of the lens focus area is brighter than the outside portions. The hot spotting becomes even worse when combined with the extreme ang of a UST. The top of the screen would be very dim and the bottom would be blown out.

Here’s an extreme example here:



Also, just because Lenticular screens mostly deflect from above doesn’t mean they don’t do well in well lit rooms. Here’s a demonstration of Elite Screens CLR (their terminology for lenticular). I’m just using this example because it’s the best video quality demo I found. That said, I’m pretty sure most Lenticular screen makers are of similar quality.



As for me, I have been using a white screen with my UST for close to a year now and don’t have any complaints. I can control the light in my living room very well, even with the lights on it’s indirect. Watching news or sports the pictures a little washed out but it doesn’t bother me as my cable box is just highly compressed 1080p anyway. When I watch movies I prefer to have the lights off and it looks great.

As of now the top three UST screen options that don’t cost a fortune, are these three imo; the ViewSonic BCP (rebranded DNP), Elite Screens CLR (the updated spring tensioned version) and SilverTicket ST2-UST. I don’t have any personal experience with them, although everything I’ve read from owners of them on this forum has been positive. All three are similar price, only the ViewSonic costs slightly more and I believe it has a 4 piece frame vs the others 6 piece frame. Having less joints decreases the chance of the screen having any unevenness. Although, I doubt it would make much difference other than piece of mind.

Hope that helps.
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Last edited by bix26; 10-06-2019 at 04:55 PM.
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post #3 of 13 Old 10-08-2019, 02:08 PM
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Greetings diggumsmax, great post.
Chinese sources claim >1 gain for the fresnel screens. Are they wrong?
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post #4 of 13 Old 10-09-2019, 02:22 PM
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A <1.0 gain matte neutral grey will have fewer tradeoffs than any ALR screen as long as you can adjust projector lumens up to compensate for the negative gain. For example a 0.5 gain matte grey screen will produce exactly the same image as a 1.0 gain matte white screen if projector lumens are doubled. However, the 0.5 gain matte grey screen will reflect only 50% of ambient light, so image washout from ambient light is cut in half. The only issue with negative gain matte grey screens is that your projector must be capable of producing a bright enough image to satisfy your personal preferences. If not then the alternative is to pay more for an ALR screen and accept the tradeoffs.
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post #5 of 13 Old 10-13-2019, 02:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qoopy View Post
Greetings diggumsmax, great post.
Chinese sources claim >1 gain for the fresnel screens. Are they wrong?
Unfortunately I have no idea as I've never actually seen either fresnel or lenticular screens in person. Just a lot of research. I've decided to go with lenticular mainly due to the limited viewing angle compared to fresnel. That and hot spotting.

Does anyone own seen the Grandview Dynamique fixed frame screen for UST projectors in person? I'm currently debating between the Elite Screens CLR and the Grandview for my UST screen. The gain is lower on the Grandview (0.4) vs the Elite (0.6). There is a great deal of the Elite right now but I am willing to pay a little more if the Grandview is better.

My Optoma P1 is pretty bright (3000 lumens) which is about the same as any other UST projector that is under 10k. The new Epson is a little brighter but I don't believe it's out yet.

Last edited by diggumsmax; 10-13-2019 at 03:02 PM.
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post #6 of 13 Old 10-21-2019, 10:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diggumsmax View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by qoopy View Post
Greetings diggumsmax, great post.
Chinese sources claim >1 gain for the fresnel screens. Are they wrong?
Unfortunately I have no idea as I've never actually seen either fresnel or lenticular screens in person. Just a lot of research. I've decided to go with lenticular mainly due to the limited viewing angle compared to fresnel. That and hot spotting.

Does anyone own seen the Grandview Dynamique fixed frame screen for UST projectors in person? I'm currently debating between the Elite Screens CLR and the Grandview for my UST screen. The gain is lower on the Grandview (0.4) vs the Elite (0.6). There is a great deal of the Elite right now but I am willing to pay a little more if the Grandview is better.

My Optoma P1 is pretty bright (3000 lumens) which is about the same as any other UST projector that is under 10k. The new Epson is a little brighter but I don't believe it's out yet.
I am in the same exact spot with a new Optoma P1. This is my first projector and I’m looking at the same screens.

Do you know if the great deal is still valid for the Elite CLR and if so what retailer had it? Thanks for the really helpful post.
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post #7 of 13 Old 10-22-2019, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diggumsmax View Post
Unfortunately I have no idea as I've never actually seen either fresnel or lenticular screens in person. Just a lot of research. I've decided to go with lenticular mainly due to the limited viewing angle compared to fresnel. That and hot spotting.

Does anyone own seen the Grandview Dynamique fixed frame screen for UST projectors in person? I'm currently debating between the Elite Screens CLR and the Grandview for my UST screen. The gain is lower on the Grandview (0.4) vs the Elite (0.6). There is a great deal of the Elite right now but I am willing to pay a little more if the Grandview is better.

My Optoma P1 is pretty bright (3000 lumens) which is about the same as any other UST projector that is under 10k. The new Epson is a little brighter but I don't believe it's out yet.
Please school this newbie... In looking at gain, what's better higher or lower? Also, I know about Elite's price drop, but do you know if this is a temporary sale or a new market value? I was wondering about the effects of companies like XY screen shipping directly to the US, and I'm curious if this is a response to a more competitive market or just a temp sale. Thanks.
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post #8 of 13 Old 10-22-2019, 09:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moctodavs View Post
Please school this newbie... In looking at gain, what's better higher or lower? Also, I know about Elite's price drop, but do you know if this is a temporary sale or a new market value? I was wondering about the effects of companies like XY screen shipping directly to the US, and I'm curious if this is a response to a more competitive market or just a temp sale. Thanks.
As far as gain is concerned, I'm not sure which is better. I do know the higher-end brands tend to have a 0.4 gain while Elite and XY tend to have around 0.6. I believe the price drop on the Elite was due to it not being able to resolve a pixel at 4K. That is why it's only listed as 1080p.

Some will say this doesn't matter, while others will say it does. since my last screen lasted me 12 years I've decided to spend a little more as I know my next projector will be UST as well. I'm by no means an expert in this area, just a someone that has done a lot of research for the last 15 years

https://www.projectorscreen.com/blog...aces-Explained

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post #9 of 13 Old 10-22-2019, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diggumsmax View Post
As far as gain is concerned, I'm not sure which is better. I do know the higher-end brands tend to have a 0.4 gain while Elite and XY tend to have around 0.6. I believe the price drop on the Elite was due to it not being able to resolve a pixel at 4K. That is why it's only listed as 1080p.

Some will say this doesn't matter, while others will say it does. since my last screen lasted me 12 years I've decided to spend a little more as I know my next projector will be UST as well. I'm by no means an expert in this area, just a someone that has done a lot of research for the last 15 years

https://www.projectorscreen.com/blog...aces-Explained

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Gain is simply how much light is reflected back from the screen. Generally, speaking a gain closest to 1.0 or neutral is best for most circumstances. Under 1.0 the picture will be slightly darker. Over 1.0 you may have hot spotting and or a glittery effect.
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post #10 of 13 Old 10-22-2019, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diggumsmax View Post
As far as gain is concerned, I'm not sure which is better. I do know the higher-end brands tend to have a 0.4 gain while Elite and XY tend to have around 0.6. I believe the price drop on the Elite was due to it not being able to resolve a pixel at 4K. That is why it's only listed as 1080p.

Some will say this doesn't matter, while others will say it does. since my last screen lasted me 12 years I've decided to spend a little more as I know my next projector will be UST as well. I'm by no means an expert in this area, just a someone that has done a lot of research for the last 15 years

https://www.projectorscreen.com/blog...aces-Explained

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


The whole thing about some screens not being able to resolve 4k is complete and total conjecture. Not surprisingly it was started by a salesman trying to justify why the UST option his company sells was worth over 3x the price of Elite Screens, Silver Ticket, ViewSonic BCP and XY screens. There is no reason to believe that the GrandView is any better in any way. I’ve seen many positive user experiences of the Elite Screens CLR, ViewSonic BCP and the XY Screens from members on this forum, none of which complained about 4K issues. These brands all claim to be 4k compatible, if they weren’t they’d likely get a ton of returns or credit card refunds.
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post #11 of 13 Old 10-23-2019, 03:07 PM
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I can confirm without a doubt my Viewsonic BCP 120 resolves 4k pixels with no problems at all. I can see absolutely zero texture of the screen sitting 8ft back.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bix26 View Post
The whole thing about some screens not being able to resolve 4k is complete and total conjecture. Not surprisingly it was started by a salesman trying to justify why the UST option his company sells was worth over 3x the price of Elite Screens, Silver Ticket, ViewSonic BCP and XY screens. There is no reason to believe that the GrandView is any better in any way. I’ve seen many positive user experiences of the Elite Screens CLR, ViewSonic BCP and the XY Screens from members on this forum, none of which complained about 4K issues. These brands all claim to be 4k compatible, if they weren’t they’d likely get a ton of returns or credit card refunds.
For some reason you appear to be hell-bent on perpetuating the myth that there is no difference in screen surface and the resolutions they are capable of. You are incorrect in your assertion and that has been countered several times by several people in the various threads. This type of persistence of bad information is stifling legitimate conversation about screen surfaces and killing threads like this before they have an opportunity to take off.

Once you have had a chance to actually get these surfaces in your possession for testing, please share your findings.

Here is some of the previous debate around this in another thread for context: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post58632338

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post #13 of 13 Old 01-09-2020, 11:21 AM
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UST screens, ALR vs CLR vs Fresnel

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Originally Posted by ProjectionHead View Post
For some reason you appear to be hell-bent on perpetuating the myth that there is no difference in screen surface and the resolutions they are capable of. You are incorrect in your assertion and that has been countered several times by several people in the various threads. This type of persistence of bad information is stifling legitimate conversation about screen surfaces and killing threads like this before they have an opportunity to take off.



Once you have had a chance to actually get these surfaces in your possession for testing, please share your findings.



Here is some of the previous debate around this in another thread for context: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post58632338


I never said there are “no differences” they’re perhaps could be. My point was these difference (if any), would almost certainly be only noticed at a macro level far outside normal viewing conditions. The only “myth” is the one you’ve been spreading about other screens abilities to resolve 4k resolutions. You yourself admitted that you have not seen these screens in person. Yet, your conjecture is in complete opposition to the many users and manufacturer claims that they can in fact resolve a 4k pixel structure. You should sell your products on their merits, not creating scary myths about your competition. I’m not “he’ll bent” on anything. In fact, I laid this argument to rest well over a month ago. I’m not sure why now your necroposting my old comment? (Rhetorical question).

Last edited by bix26; 01-09-2020 at 12:14 PM.
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