UST screens, ALR vs CLR vs Fresnel - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 23 Old 10-06-2019, 12:09 PM - Thread Starter
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UST screens, ALR vs CLR vs Fresnel

There has been a lot of discussion about UST projector screens so I thought a dedicated thread would be useful. I'm waiting on my P1 to get here on Wednesday before deciding which screen to buy. I've never seen any of these screens in person due to dealers being four or more hours away.

I currently have a Stewart Firehawk that is around twelve years old with no ALR. The picture is washed out during the day with my three year old Epson due to factors I can't control. I've done a lot of research and have talked to a few dealers but have gotten conflicting answers about various things. UST projectors also cause a lot of light to bounce of the ceiling due the angle from which the light is hitting the acrwwn so I don't think my Firehawk is going to be the best screen for UST.

Is CLR different from ALR? From discussions I've had with dealers CLR only blocks light from above while ALR screens that are made for UST projectors block light from above and below. Is this true? They both appear to be based of lenticular technology.

The lower end (or priced) ones seems to all be essentially the same but made by different manufacturer's like the Elite Aeon CLR, silver ticket, XY, and some other brands I'm probably leaving out. The various diagrams pretty much show the same thing as the ones from XY below.

The ones that claim to be ALR seem to block light from above and from the sides to only reflect light from back towards the user. These tend to have a lower gain (0.4, 0.5) than the brands mentioned above which are between 0.6 and 0.8 but also cost more. Grandview seems to be the only middle ground as the Da-lite parallax and SI are just to much for me. I can't justify spending more for a screen than the projector itself.

It's hard to determine from YouTube videos and various screen shots as they can't capture the true experience as seeing it yourself.

Lastly there is fresnel. These seem to be relatively new. DNP makes them but that's to high end. XY makes them as well but they are hard screen which makes shipping extremely difficult and costly. The only downsides are limited viewing angle, potential hot spotting and glare but they appear to handle ambient light much better and have a higher gain.

Even though you don't get the real experience from videos it's easy to tell from videos and screen shots that these screens do make a big difference for contrast and brightness with ambient light. I'm just trying to find out the best one that doesn't cost more than the projector.
Any feedback from anyone that has first hand experience would be greatly appreciated.




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Last edited by diggumsmax; 10-06-2019 at 01:58 PM.
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post #2 of 23 Old 10-06-2019, 03:42 PM
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UST screens, ALR vs CLR vs Fresnel

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Originally Posted by diggumsmax View Post
There has been a lot of discussion about UST projector screens so I thought a dedicated thread would be useful. I'm waiting on my P1 to get here on Wednesday before deciding which screen to buy. I've never seen any of these screens in person due to dealers being four or more hours away.

I currently have a Stewart Firehawk that is around twelve years old with no ALR. The picture is washed out during the day with my three year old Epson due to factors I can't control. I've done a lot of research and have talked to a few dealers but have gotten conflicting answers about various things. UST projectors also cause a lot of light to bounce of the ceiling due the angle from which the light is hitting the acrwwn so I don't think my Firehawk is going to be the best screen for UST.

Is CLR different from ALR? From discussions I've had with dealers CLR only blocks light from above while ALR screens that are made for UST projectors block light from above and below. Is this true? They both appear to be based of lenticular technology.

The lower end (or priced) ones seems to all be essentially the same but made by different manufacturer's like the Elite Aeon CLR, silver ticket, XY, and some other brands I'm probably leaving out. The various diagrams pretty much show the same thing as the ones from XY below.

The ones that claim to be ALR seem to block light from above and from the sides to only reflect light from back towards the user. These tend to have a lower gain (0.4, 0.5) than the brands mentioned above which are between 0.6 and 0.8 but also cost more. Grandview seems to be the only middle ground as the Da-lite parallax and SI are just to much for me. I can't justify spending more for a screen than the projector itself.

It's hard to determine from YouTube videos and various screen shots as they can't capture the true experience as seeing it yourself.

Lastly there is fresnel. These seem to be relatively new. DNP makes them but that's to high end. XY makes them as well but they are hard screen which makes shipping extremely difficult and costly. The only downsides are limited viewing angle, potential hot spotting and glare but they appear to handle ambient light much better and have a higher gain.

Even though you don't get the real experience from videos it's easy to tell from videos and screen shots that these screens do make a big difference for contrast and brightness with ambient light. I'm just trying to find out the best one that doesn't cost more than the projector.
Any feedback from anyone that has first hand experience would be greatly appreciated.




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While lenticular and Fresnel type screens are technically “ambient light rejecting” they do it in a much different way than non UST specific ALR screens do it. As your diagrams above demonstrate lenticular and fresnel screens used a three dimensional grid to obstruct light coming from most directions. Most ALR screens that aren’t UST specific achieve this in a totally different way. These non-UST ALR screens use dark material infused with highly reflective glass or metal particles. The darker surface in combination with a high gain causes the on axis light to reflect back disproportionately higher than the off axes light. The downside is these screens can be prone to hot spotting where the center of the lens focus area is brighter than the outside portions. The hot spotting becomes even worse when combined with the extreme ang of a UST. The top of the screen would be very dim and the bottom would be blown out.

Here’s an extreme example here:



Also, just because Lenticular screens mostly deflect from above doesn’t mean they don’t do well in well lit rooms. Here’s a demonstration of Elite Screens CLR (their terminology for lenticular). I’m just using this example because it’s the best video quality demo I found. That said, I’m pretty sure most Lenticular screen makers are of similar quality.



As for me, I have been using a white screen with my UST for close to a year now and don’t have any complaints. I can control the light in my living room very well, even with the lights on it’s indirect. Watching news or sports the pictures a little washed out but it doesn’t bother me as my cable box is just highly compressed 1080p anyway. When I watch movies I prefer to have the lights off and it looks great.

As of now the top three UST screen options that don’t cost a fortune, are these three imo; the ViewSonic BCP (rebranded DNP), Elite Screens CLR (the updated spring tensioned version) and SilverTicket ST2-UST. I don’t have any personal experience with them, although everything I’ve read from owners of them on this forum has been positive. All three are similar price, only the ViewSonic costs slightly more and I believe it has a 4 piece frame vs the others 6 piece frame. Having less joints decreases the chance of the screen having any unevenness. Although, I doubt it would make much difference other than piece of mind.

Hope that helps.
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Last edited by bix26; 10-06-2019 at 03:55 PM.
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post #3 of 23 Old 10-08-2019, 01:08 PM
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Greetings diggumsmax, great post.
Chinese sources claim >1 gain for the fresnel screens. Are they wrong?
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post #4 of 23 Old 10-09-2019, 01:22 PM
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A <1.0 gain matte neutral grey will have fewer tradeoffs than any ALR screen as long as you can adjust projector lumens up to compensate for the negative gain. For example a 0.5 gain matte grey screen will produce exactly the same image as a 1.0 gain matte white screen if projector lumens are doubled. However, the 0.5 gain matte grey screen will reflect only 50% of ambient light, so image washout from ambient light is cut in half. The only issue with negative gain matte grey screens is that your projector must be capable of producing a bright enough image to satisfy your personal preferences. If not then the alternative is to pay more for an ALR screen and accept the tradeoffs.
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post #5 of 23 Old 10-13-2019, 01:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qoopy View Post
Greetings diggumsmax, great post.
Chinese sources claim >1 gain for the fresnel screens. Are they wrong?
Unfortunately I have no idea as I've never actually seen either fresnel or lenticular screens in person. Just a lot of research. I've decided to go with lenticular mainly due to the limited viewing angle compared to fresnel. That and hot spotting.

Does anyone own seen the Grandview Dynamique fixed frame screen for UST projectors in person? I'm currently debating between the Elite Screens CLR and the Grandview for my UST screen. The gain is lower on the Grandview (0.4) vs the Elite (0.6). There is a great deal of the Elite right now but I am willing to pay a little more if the Grandview is better.

My Optoma P1 is pretty bright (3000 lumens) which is about the same as any other UST projector that is under 10k. The new Epson is a little brighter but I don't believe it's out yet.

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post #6 of 23 Old 10-21-2019, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diggumsmax View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by qoopy View Post
Greetings diggumsmax, great post.
Chinese sources claim >1 gain for the fresnel screens. Are they wrong?
Unfortunately I have no idea as I've never actually seen either fresnel or lenticular screens in person. Just a lot of research. I've decided to go with lenticular mainly due to the limited viewing angle compared to fresnel. That and hot spotting.

Does anyone own seen the Grandview Dynamique fixed frame screen for UST projectors in person? I'm currently debating between the Elite Screens CLR and the Grandview for my UST screen. The gain is lower on the Grandview (0.4) vs the Elite (0.6). There is a great deal of the Elite right now but I am willing to pay a little more if the Grandview is better.

My Optoma P1 is pretty bright (3000 lumens) which is about the same as any other UST projector that is under 10k. The new Epson is a little brighter but I don't believe it's out yet.
I am in the same exact spot with a new Optoma P1. This is my first projector and I’m looking at the same screens.

Do you know if the great deal is still valid for the Elite CLR and if so what retailer had it? Thanks for the really helpful post.
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post #7 of 23 Old 10-22-2019, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diggumsmax View Post
Unfortunately I have no idea as I've never actually seen either fresnel or lenticular screens in person. Just a lot of research. I've decided to go with lenticular mainly due to the limited viewing angle compared to fresnel. That and hot spotting.

Does anyone own seen the Grandview Dynamique fixed frame screen for UST projectors in person? I'm currently debating between the Elite Screens CLR and the Grandview for my UST screen. The gain is lower on the Grandview (0.4) vs the Elite (0.6). There is a great deal of the Elite right now but I am willing to pay a little more if the Grandview is better.

My Optoma P1 is pretty bright (3000 lumens) which is about the same as any other UST projector that is under 10k. The new Epson is a little brighter but I don't believe it's out yet.
Please school this newbie... In looking at gain, what's better higher or lower? Also, I know about Elite's price drop, but do you know if this is a temporary sale or a new market value? I was wondering about the effects of companies like XY screen shipping directly to the US, and I'm curious if this is a response to a more competitive market or just a temp sale. Thanks.
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post #8 of 23 Old 10-22-2019, 08:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moctodavs View Post
Please school this newbie... In looking at gain, what's better higher or lower? Also, I know about Elite's price drop, but do you know if this is a temporary sale or a new market value? I was wondering about the effects of companies like XY screen shipping directly to the US, and I'm curious if this is a response to a more competitive market or just a temp sale. Thanks.
As far as gain is concerned, I'm not sure which is better. I do know the higher-end brands tend to have a 0.4 gain while Elite and XY tend to have around 0.6. I believe the price drop on the Elite was due to it not being able to resolve a pixel at 4K. That is why it's only listed as 1080p.

Some will say this doesn't matter, while others will say it does. since my last screen lasted me 12 years I've decided to spend a little more as I know my next projector will be UST as well. I'm by no means an expert in this area, just a someone that has done a lot of research for the last 15 years

https://www.projectorscreen.com/blog...aces-Explained

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post #9 of 23 Old 10-22-2019, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diggumsmax View Post
As far as gain is concerned, I'm not sure which is better. I do know the higher-end brands tend to have a 0.4 gain while Elite and XY tend to have around 0.6. I believe the price drop on the Elite was due to it not being able to resolve a pixel at 4K. That is why it's only listed as 1080p.

Some will say this doesn't matter, while others will say it does. since my last screen lasted me 12 years I've decided to spend a little more as I know my next projector will be UST as well. I'm by no means an expert in this area, just a someone that has done a lot of research for the last 15 years

https://www.projectorscreen.com/blog...aces-Explained

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Gain is simply how much light is reflected back from the screen. Generally, speaking a gain closest to 1.0 or neutral is best for most circumstances. Under 1.0 the picture will be slightly darker. Over 1.0 you may have hot spotting and or a glittery effect.
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post #10 of 23 Old 10-22-2019, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diggumsmax View Post
As far as gain is concerned, I'm not sure which is better. I do know the higher-end brands tend to have a 0.4 gain while Elite and XY tend to have around 0.6. I believe the price drop on the Elite was due to it not being able to resolve a pixel at 4K. That is why it's only listed as 1080p.

Some will say this doesn't matter, while others will say it does. since my last screen lasted me 12 years I've decided to spend a little more as I know my next projector will be UST as well. I'm by no means an expert in this area, just a someone that has done a lot of research for the last 15 years

https://www.projectorscreen.com/blog...aces-Explained

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The whole thing about some screens not being able to resolve 4k is complete and total conjecture. Not surprisingly it was started by a salesman trying to justify why the UST option his company sells was worth over 3x the price of Elite Screens, Silver Ticket, ViewSonic BCP and XY screens. There is no reason to believe that the GrandView is any better in any way. I’ve seen many positive user experiences of the Elite Screens CLR, ViewSonic BCP and the XY Screens from members on this forum, none of which complained about 4K issues. These brands all claim to be 4k compatible, if they weren’t they’d likely get a ton of returns or credit card refunds.
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I can confirm without a doubt my Viewsonic BCP 120 resolves 4k pixels with no problems at all. I can see absolutely zero texture of the screen sitting 8ft back.
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Originally Posted by bix26 View Post
The whole thing about some screens not being able to resolve 4k is complete and total conjecture. Not surprisingly it was started by a salesman trying to justify why the UST option his company sells was worth over 3x the price of Elite Screens, Silver Ticket, ViewSonic BCP and XY screens. There is no reason to believe that the GrandView is any better in any way. I’ve seen many positive user experiences of the Elite Screens CLR, ViewSonic BCP and the XY Screens from members on this forum, none of which complained about 4K issues. These brands all claim to be 4k compatible, if they weren’t they’d likely get a ton of returns or credit card refunds.
For some reason you appear to be hell-bent on perpetuating the myth that there is no difference in screen surface and the resolutions they are capable of. You are incorrect in your assertion and that has been countered several times by several people in the various threads. This type of persistence of bad information is stifling legitimate conversation about screen surfaces and killing threads like this before they have an opportunity to take off.

Once you have had a chance to actually get these surfaces in your possession for testing, please share your findings.

Here is some of the previous debate around this in another thread for context: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post58632338

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post #13 of 23 Old 01-09-2020, 10:21 AM
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UST screens, ALR vs CLR vs Fresnel

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Originally Posted by ProjectionHead View Post
For some reason you appear to be hell-bent on perpetuating the myth that there is no difference in screen surface and the resolutions they are capable of. You are incorrect in your assertion and that has been countered several times by several people in the various threads. This type of persistence of bad information is stifling legitimate conversation about screen surfaces and killing threads like this before they have an opportunity to take off.



Once you have had a chance to actually get these surfaces in your possession for testing, please share your findings.



Here is some of the previous debate around this in another thread for context: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...l#post58632338


I never said there are “no differences” they’re perhaps could be. My point was these difference (if any), would almost certainly be only noticed at a macro level far outside normal viewing conditions. The only “myth” is the one you’ve been spreading about other screens abilities to resolve 4k resolutions. You yourself admitted that you have not seen these screens in person. Yet, your conjecture is in complete opposition to the many users and manufacturer claims that they can in fact resolve a 4k pixel structure. You should sell your products on their merits, not creating scary myths about your competition. I’m not “he’ll bent” on anything. In fact, I laid this argument to rest well over a month ago. I’m not sure why now your necroposting my old comment? (Rhetorical question).

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Help needed! Have an open livingroom with lot's of huge windows. I have the Optoma UHZ65UST (P1 in the USA) and the 120" PET crystal from XYscreens. It works great at night, even good with the lights on but daytime with direct or indirect sunshine dark scenes are impossible. So, buying a new screen but this time it must be 100" (max size accepted by my wife) which means fresnel screens are also in play.

The PET Crystal has 0.8gain. The Optoma ALR101 has 0.6gain while Parallax has 0.45gain. Which is the best choice for decent image also during daytime or is fresnel the way to go?

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Originally Posted by jmg999 View Post
Help needed! Have an open livingroom with lot's of huge windows. I have the Optoma UHZ65UST (P1 in the USA) and the 120" PET crystal from XYscreens. It works great at night, even good with the lights on but daytime with direct or indirect sunshine dark scenes are impossible. So, buying a new screen but this time it must be 100" (max size accepted by my wife) which means fresnel screens are also in play.

The PET Crystal has 0.8gain. The Optoma ALR101 has 0.6gain while Parallax has 0.45gain. Which is the best choice for decent image also during daytime or is fresnel the way to go?
You already have one of the best. ALR screens can help but like you said its not perfect and you'll need to do something about the room to get it any better.
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You already have one of the best. ALR screens can help but like you said its not perfect and you'll need to do something about the room to get it any better.
The room is mainly a living room so unfortunately no room for "improvements". Ok, so the lower gain doesn't help or have min impact during daytime? Would be great if anyone with personal experience from either of these UST screens or Screen Elite, DNP or fresnel screens can chip in and advice.
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UST screens, ALR vs CLR vs Fresnel

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Originally Posted by jmg999 View Post
The room is mainly a living room so unfortunately no room for "improvements". Ok, so the lower gain doesn't help or have min impact during daytime? Would be great if anyone with personal experience from either of these UST screens or Screen Elite, DNP or fresnel screens can chip in and advice.


Here’s an old thread, I’m having trouble viewing it on my phone. If I remember correctly there was one user that had many different samples and posted comparisons. The ViewSonic BCP screens appear to have an identical construction to the DNP and is likely a white label product.


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.avs...html%3Famp%3D1

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Originally Posted by jmg999 View Post
Help needed! Have an open livingroom with lot's of huge windows. I have the Optoma UHZ65UST (P1 in the USA) and the 120" PET crystal from XYscreens. It works great at night, even good with the lights on but daytime with direct or indirect sunshine dark scenes are impossible. So, buying a new screen but this time it must be 100" (max size accepted by my wife) which means fresnel screens are also in play.

The PET Crystal has 0.8gain. The Optoma ALR101 has 0.6gain while Parallax has 0.45gain. Which is the best choice for decent image also during daytime or is fresnel the way to go?
What is the source and intensity of the ambient light?

Some pictures would be helpful.
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Unfortunately I have no idea as I've never actually seen either fresnel or lenticular screens in person. Just a lot of research. I've decided to go with lenticular mainly due to the limited viewing angle compared to fresnel. That and hot spotting.

Does anyone own seen the Grandview Dynamique fixed frame screen for UST projectors in person? I'm currently debating between the Elite Screens CLR and the Grandview for my UST screen. The gain is lower on the Grandview (0.4) vs the Elite (0.6). There is a great deal of the Elite right now but I am willing to pay a little more if the Grandview is better.

My Optoma P1 is pretty bright (3000 lumens) which is about the same as any other UST projector that is under 10k. The new Epson is a little brighter but I don't believe it's out yet.
i do not care about the viewing angle, and all my windows are at angle that i wont see the reflection, but i am worried about hot spotting. I understand that this community is so small that no one has ever gone to a showroom and view them side by side. But from your research, is it that bad that you would sacrifice day viewing just for hot spotting? Lenticular is great too but it's still a compromise to watch a washed out picture in bright environment.
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post #20 of 23 Old 05-17-2020, 10:43 AM - Thread Starter
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i do not care about the viewing angle, and all my windows are at angle that i wont see the reflection, but i am worried about hot spotting. I understand that this community is so small that no one has ever gone to a showroom and view them side by side. But from your research, is it that bad that you would sacrifice day viewing just for hot spotting? Lenticular is great too but it's still a compromise to watch a washed out picture in bright environment.
I ended up going with the 100" Grandview
and I am very satisfied by the picture quality and ALR from above and even from the side. Here are two different short videos (
), all lights on.

I could never get anyone to even get me a quote on the
. No one I communicated with via email to was willing to ship just one, and I was sending emails to places in China via Aliba, I think they have some pictures on there the packaging is HUGE due to it being hard screen, it's tightly packed in a crate.

While the P1 was brighter on my Stewart Firehawk (either 1.0 or 1.1 gain), my ceiling is white and because of the light angle my ceiling looked like a strobe light so regardless of what you go with if you do UST I do recommend and ALR screen. The picture really does look much better due to how it reflects the light back directly at the viewer. This may be a non issue if you have a batcave environment but if you want ambient light I think the Grandview does an amazing job. I have not seen any other brands in person so I can't make any fair comparisons to any other brands. Even though the gain is only 0.4 the P1 is bright enough to still give a a very bright image with better contrast. I only crank the brightness of the P1 to 100% during the day. I usually keep it around 70% at night.

DNP recently
they can do Fresnel at any size with a 1.2 gain. I could never find a price on the DNP, only numbers to authorized resellers which means it was out of my price range. I can't speak of hot spotting as I have never actually seen Fresnel, just research and online video's which obviously don't give you the real experience. I ended up with the Grandview due to being able to get it from an authorized reseller in the US so there was piece of mind and due to getting a discount on the P1 and Grandview if bought through the same authorized reseller. I've got some other videos but AVS forums doesn't allow links to Google Photos for some reason.

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post #21 of 23 Old 05-20-2020, 05:40 PM
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@ diggumsmax - In your second video you say "Please note that the screen is not 100% level as I've got to replace the material." Why did you need to replace the material?
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post #22 of 23 Old 05-22-2020, 03:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1dirtypanda View Post
@ diggumsmax - In your second video you say "Please note that the screen is not 100% level as I've got to replace the material." Why did you need to replace the material?
There was a very tiny imperfection in the original material sent. The authorized retailer I purchased it through had new material shipped and was there within 5 business days so wonderful turn around time and was shipped directly from Grandview. It probably would have been there faster but it shipped from California and I live in Florida. I also can't speak enough about the very quick response from where I purchased with updates on the replacement material during the process. Probably the best customer support experience I've ever had.

When looking at the second video you can see some light on the top right corner. This was user error as the left side (when looking at the screen) was roughly a 1/4th of an inch higher. I measured about ten times before drilling any holes but I still somehow hanged it and it was off so that is 100% user error. I used the smart fit app for the 1st link which works great although I now have it hanged level so not using smart fit anymore. Once I got the replacement material I leveled the screen before putting on the new material.

When it's mounted you can adjust the screen but only by roughly 0.25"s up or down so not a lot of wiggle room. This can be done by adjust the screws on the four mounting brackets that hold the frame to the wall. You can move the frame left or right before securing tightly with the screws on the brackets so that's a non issue.

Hind sight is always 20/20 but hanging the screen frame with no material and making sure everything lined with my P1 using the frame, minus the roughly 1" bezel worked perfectly for alignment. I then took the frame off the wall put on the replacement material,. The replacement material was flawless with absolutely zero issues and I couldn't be happier with the P1/Grandview combo.

The price of the Grandview has dropped by quite a bit, at least from where I purchased as I was looking yesterday just to see. I would of gone with 110"s as there was a much larger difference in price for 110" from the 100" screen at the time of purchase. 120" would of required a new home theater cabinet/credenza which I didn't want to do.

That is just the cost of being a somewhat early adopter though and was totally expected. Grandview appears to be the only one who sells a 110" model outside Da-Lite and SI although both of those are twice the price of the Grandview. Seems like everyone else is 100"s and 120"s with no in between.
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post #23 of 23 Old 05-22-2020, 03:57 PM - Thread Starter
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I noticed this today. Apparently there is an Elite Screens Aeon CLR 2 out but it has less ALR then the original (65%). I imagine this is due to it being compatible with both UST and Ultra Short Throw Projectors. This screen is specifically marked as 4k/8K ready, where the original was only rated for 1080p even though Elite says it can do 8k per their own data sheet. With that said the tab tension system on the electric version does not look like it would work well with UST, especially when you compare it to the Vividstorm. It's using weights and traditional tab tension system from the screenshots. I have a feeling this is going to be marketed more towards short throw then UST though as they are coming out with a CLR @3 version sometime in 2020.

I only noticed was when looking at the comparison sheet they have posted on their site for the CLR 3 version coming out sometime in 2020. While it has 85% ALR vs 95% for the original, it is saying it has a gain of 0.9 so that should be interesting to see when it comes out.
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