New hd39hdr , looking into a silver screen - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 16 Old 10-17-2019, 08:02 AM - Thread Starter
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New hd39hdr , looking into a silver screen

Hey everyone, I recently just got a new hd39hdr and with the better zoom it has I realized my frame I built is too small now and I can go bigger, plus when I bought the material and installed onto a frame I got some ripples in it which is more noticable now lol. I bought a Carl's ultra ALR before , but this time around I was thinking about trying my hand at a silver high gain model. Found a 2.5 gain silver one on Amazon for under 300 but is and just curious what everyone's thoughts where on silver over a grey or white, we sit about 8-9 feet back, only big lighting is from the side window in the room which we bought blackout film for. Has anyone tried out a silver one before? I'm hoping to accomplish a bright vibrant image with good contrast , I feel the ultra ALR screen we have now can crush black detail in dark scenes too which is another reason why I was looking into something new
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post #2 of 16 Old 10-18-2019, 08:20 PM
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That thing has 4k lumens and you wanna pair it with a silver screen rated at 2.5 gain. Lol. Not being rude, but let me know how that works out for you!
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post #3 of 16 Old 10-18-2019, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Mrlance2019 View Post
Hey everyone, I recently just got a new hd39hdr and with the better zoom it has I realized my frame I built is too small now and I can go bigger, plus when I bought the material and installed onto a frame I got some ripples in it which is more noticable now lol. I bought a Carl's ultra ALR before , but this time around I was thinking about trying my hand at a silver high gain model. Found a 2.5 gain silver one on Amazon for under 300 but is and just curious what everyone's thoughts where on silver over a grey or white, we sit about 8-9 feet back, only big lighting is from the side window in the room which we bought blackout film for. Has anyone tried out a silver one before? I'm hoping to accomplish a bright vibrant image with good contrast , I feel the ultra ALR screen we have now can crush black detail in dark scenes too which is another reason why I was looking into something new
The HD39HDR's lumen output is not 4K, it depends on the mode:
https://www.projectorcentral.com/Opt...s,-Connections


Regarding the crushed blacks, there are several factors that are involved:
Having the correct settings for color space (16-235 or 0-255) from the projector and the source.
Having the image calibrated so the color space is not clipped.
For this there are two patterns required, the Black Clipping and White Clipping:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...libration.html

The projector's capacity to project good blacks/shadow detail. DLP's (and other pj types) in this segment have poor black levels.

Is the blackout film referring to Calr's ALR screen or blackout window shades? If they are shades how much light still comes through?

Shadow detail is affected by how much light is in the room. The light can come from windows, lights, and wall reflections.

Here is a good example and explanation of how just reflections from walls affect black detail:
https://www.facebook.com/projectiond...2721894385217/
http://projectiondream.com/en/movie-...-measurements/

To combat this, dark fabric is used on walls, or at least a dark paint.

The Carl's Ultra ALR has a claimed gain of 1.5. Going from this screen to one with a higher gain will not help with crushed blacks. The image with the HD39HDR and Carl's ALR should already be pretty bright and vibrant.

A negative gain matte screen (white or grey) will help with shadow detail. The matte screens don't have any ALR properties, so they will not reflect ambient light. Since they are negative gain, they will reflect less light back, depending on the rating. If the rating is 0.7, then it will reflect back 70% of the light.

Even though the ALR will help with ambient light reflections from walls, in a room with no lights other than the projector (and maybe some minimal light spill from the windows (if blackout shades are used)) a negative gain matte screen will have better black levels than an ALR.


Two good threads:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/110-d...l-s-place.html
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/23-sc...op-whites.html

There is a 0.8 gain screen with ALR properties from XY screens:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/23-sc...on-review.html

A painted screen can have excellent results, at a lower cost:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/110-diy-screen-section/

What is the diagonal of the current screen?

LE: to avoid wrinkles use this technique when mounting the fabric:
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post #4 of 16 Old 10-20-2019, 01:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the input, I used a blackout film over the window in the room , plus I have some blackout curtains for the entry way coming, I usually set the bulb to either eco+ or dynamic. I attached a couple pics below so you guys can check out the setup, actually the blackout film helped out a lot and pretty much cut out all the ambient light from outside. I ended up ordering a silver ticket 106" cinewhite model fixed frame too, figured now that we have a dark room the white screen should do well now
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post #5 of 16 Old 10-20-2019, 01:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
The HD39HDR's lumen output is not 4K, it depends on the mode:
https://www.projectorcentral.com/Opt...s,-Connections


Regarding the crushed blacks, there are several factors that are involved:
Having the correct settings for color space (16-235 or 0-255) from the projector and the source.
Having the image calibrated so the color space is not clipped.
For this there are two patterns required, the Black Clipping and White Clipping:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...libration.html

The projector's capacity to project good blacks/shadow detail. DLP's (and other pj types) in this segment have poor black levels.

Is the blackout film referring to Calr's ALR screen or blackout window shades? If they are shades how much light still comes through?

Shadow detail is affected by how much light is in the room. The light can come from windows, lights, and wall reflections.

Here is a good example and explanation of how just reflections from walls affect black detail:
https://www.facebook.com/projectiond...2721894385217/
http://projectiondream.com/en/movie-...-measurements/

To combat this, dark fabric is used on walls, or at least a dark paint.

The Carl's Ultra ALR has a claimed gain of 1.5. Going from this screen to one with a higher gain will not help with crushed blacks. The image with the HD39HDR and Carl's ALR should already be pretty bright and vibrant.

A negative gain matte screen (white or grey) will help with shadow detail. The matte screens don't have any ALR properties, so they will not reflect ambient light. Since they are negative gain, they will reflect less light back, depending on the rating. If the rating is 0.7, then it will reflect back 70% of the light.

Even though the ALR will help with ambient light reflections from walls, in a room with no lights other than the projector (and maybe some minimal light spill from the windows (if blackout shades are used)) a negative gain matte screen will have better black levels than an ALR.


Two good threads:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/110-d...l-s-place.html
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/23-sc...op-whites.html

There is a 0.8 gain screen with ALR properties from XY screens:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/23-sc...on-review.html

A painted screen can have excellent results, at a lower cost:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/110-diy-screen-section/

What is the diagonal of the current screen?

LE: to avoid wrinkles use this technique when mounting the fabric:
Quote:
Originally Posted by dagameballa View Post
That thing has 4k lumens and you wanna pair it with a silver screen rated at 2.5 gain. Lol. Not being rude, but let me know how that works out for you!

I opted for this one instead, the picture is definitely good on this now without the lighting coming in, and figured a standard white should more than suffice now:

https://www.amazon.com/STR-16992-Sil...jaz10cnVl&th=1
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post #6 of 16 Old 10-20-2019, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrlance2019 View Post
I opted for this one instead, the picture is definitely good on this now without the lighting coming in, and figured a standard white should more than suffice now:

https://www.amazon.com/STR-16992-Sil...jaz10cnVl&th=1
The Silver Ticket brand is an excellent budget option, but a grey screen would have been more appropriate in the current environment with that projector.


The position of the screen is too high. Eye level should be 1/3rd from the bottom of the screen (height).

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post #7 of 16 Old 10-21-2019, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
... The position of the screen is too high. Eye level should be 1/3rd from the bottom of the screen (height). ...
The point of optimum screen height is personal comfort. The 1/3rd suggestion is an average rule of thumb. Optimum screen height can vary with seating position and personal preference. For example, optimum screen height is typically different for those who sit bolt upright as opposed to those leaning back in a recliner. It's always best for everyone to experiment and find what works best for them in their individual seating position as opposed to thinking an average is a rigid number for all people in all situations.
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post #8 of 16 Old 10-21-2019, 12:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
... The position of the screen is too high. Eye level should be 1/3rd from the bottom of the screen (height). ...
The point of optimum screen height is personal comfort. The 1/3rd suggestion is an average rule of thumb. Optimum screen height can vary with seating position and personal preference. For example, optimum screen height is typically different for those who sit bolt upright as opposed to those leaning back in a recliner. It's always best for everyone to experiment and find what works best for them in their individual seating position as opposed to thinking an average is a rigid number for all people in all situations.
Luckily the couch reclines so we typically lay back and look up, that seems to be the best viewing spot for us in the room because of the computer desk and monitor right below it
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post #9 of 16 Old 10-21-2019, 12:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrlance2019 View Post
I opted for this one instead, the picture is definitely good on this now without the lighting coming in, and figured a standard white should more than suffice now:

https://www.amazon.com/STR-16992-Sil...jaz10cnVl&th=1
The Silver Ticket brand is an excellent budget option, but a grey screen would have been more appropriate in the current environment with that projector.


The position of the screen is too high. Eye level should be 1/3rd from the bottom of the screen (height).

Well darn, well worst case scenario there's always the Amazon return booth at our local khols lol. I think I remember reading somewhere the optoma dlp models have a somewhat lower performance with black details which could be what I'm running into in dark scenes and the alr screen, maybe the white one could help with those ?
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post #10 of 16 Old 10-21-2019, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Mrlance2019 View Post
Luckily the couch reclines so we typically lay back and look up, that seems to be the best viewing spot for us in the room because of the computer desk and monitor right below it
What you want to do is lay back in your typical viewing position with your eyes shut. When you open your eyes you should be looking at the vertical point on the wall where your vision naturally falls. For most people that point should be around or somewhat below where the vertical center of the screen should be positioned. The more you can fine tune this before permanently mounting the screen the more comfortable you're likely to be when viewing. When I sit in my reclining chair with eyes shut and then open my eyes my eyesight naturally falls at a higher point on the wall when the chair is reclined than when it's upright.
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post #11 of 16 Old 10-21-2019, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrlance2019 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrlance2019 View Post
I opted for this one instead, the picture is definitely good on this now without the lighting coming in, and figured a standard white should more than suffice now:


https://www.amazon.com/STR-16992-Sil...jaz10cnVl&th=1
The Silver Ticket brand is an excellent budget option, but a grey screen would have been more appropriate in the current environment with that projector.


The position of the screen is too high. Eye level should be 1/3rd from the bottom of the screen (height).

Well darn, well worst case scenario there's always the Amazon return booth at our local khols lol. I think I remember reading somewhere the optoma dlp models have a somewhat lower performance with black details which could be what I'm running into in dark scenes and the alr screen, maybe the white one could help with those ?
Make sure you turn brilliant color down to zero or 1. Whatever the lowest setting is. It just washes out the picture and makes the blacks look really bad. Try that and dynamic setting on the lamp.

Last edited by dagameballa; 10-21-2019 at 06:18 PM.
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post #12 of 16 Old 10-21-2019, 08:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dagameballa View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrlance2019 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrlance2019 View Post
I opted for this one instead, the picture is definitely good on this now without the lighting coming in, and figured a standard white should more than suffice now:


https://www.amazon.com/STR-16992-Sil...jaz10cnVl&th=1
The Silver Ticket brand is an excellent budget option, but a grey screen would have been more appropriate in the current environment with that projector.


The position of the screen is too high. Eye level should be 1/3rd from the bottom of the screen (height).

Well darn, well worst case scenario there's always the Amazon return booth at our local khols lol. I think I remember reading somewhere the optoma dlp models have a somewhat lower performance with black details which could be what I'm running into in dark scenes and the alr screen, maybe the white one could help with those ?
Make sure you turn brilliant color down to zero or 1. Whatever the lowest setting is. It just washes out the picture and makes the blacks looked really bad. Try that and dynamic setting on the lamp.
You're 100% right about the brilliant color setting, I accidentally had it on before and honestly I think it caused the whites to be destroyed , nothing but a white blob where should be at least some details in light scenes.
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post #13 of 16 Old 10-21-2019, 09:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrlance2019 View Post
Well darn, well worst case scenario there's always the Amazon return booth at our local khols lol. I think I remember reading somewhere the optoma dlp models have a somewhat lower performance with black details which could be what I'm running into in dark scenes and the alr screen, maybe the white one could help with those ?
You can get a sample of the grey fabric from Silver Ticket instead of an entire screen.
In that setup a grey screen would improve black level over a white screen.

Not sure about the HD39HDR, but the previous unit I had, the Optoma HD27, had better black levels than the Benq W2000 (HT3050) with Dynamic+ and SmartEco on both.
Low end DLP's have poor black performance across the board. There is only so much that can be done if the projector is not capable. Even with a capable projector, those reflections from the walls would wash it out.

Make sure the projector/player setup does not clip any detail as mentioned in post #3 .

@Dave in Green how an average person would sit on the couch in the picture in post #4 would seem to require the screen be lower. The example showed an individual with a horizontal line of sight. Yes, it's ultimately what the user is comfortable with that is most important.

Last edited by noob00224; 10-21-2019 at 09:30 PM.
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post #14 of 16 Old 10-22-2019, 08:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrlance2019 View Post
Well darn, well worst case scenario there's always the Amazon return booth at our local khols lol. I think I remember reading somewhere the optoma dlp models have a somewhat lower performance with black details which could be what I'm running into in dark scenes and the alr screen, maybe the white one could help with those ?
You can get a sample of the grey fabric from Silver Ticket instead of an entire screen.
In that setup a grey screen would improve black level over a white screen.

Not sure about the HD39HDR, but the previous unit I had, the Optoma HD27, had better black levels than the Benq W2000 (HT3050) with Dynamic+ and SmartEco on both.
Low end DLP's have poor black performance across the board. There is only so much that can be done if the projector is not capable. Even with a capable projector, those reflections from the walls would wash it out.

Make sure the projector/player setup does not clip any detail as mentioned in post #3 .

@Dave in Green how an average person would sit on the couch in the picture in post #4 would seem to require the screen be lower. The example showed an individual with a horizontal line of sight. Yes, it's ultimately what the user is comfortable with that is most important.
Well darn it's a shame I already received the box yesterday, I'll try it out because the only other thing I've used instead of a bare wall is the alr screen, I'm thinking the white could let me turn the contrast down a tad more to help out the overall levels , I have it on the yccbr setting and double checked the projector was set to limited signal too , plus i received the blackout curtains for the entry way , should be a total dark room now no matter the time of day
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post #15 of 16 Old 10-22-2019, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Mrlance2019 View Post
Well darn it's a shame I already received the box yesterday, I'll try it out because the only other thing I've used instead of a bare wall is the alr screen, I'm thinking the white could let me turn the contrast down a tad more to help out the overall levels , I have it on the yccbr setting and double checked the projector was set to limited signal too , plus i received the blackout curtains for the entry way , should be a total dark room now no matter the time of day
Turning the contrast down to help with the overall levels does not make sense, and it's not what you would want. The screen is plenty bright and the black levels could be improved.

Samples are cheap:
https://www.silverticketproducts.com...terial-samples

YCbCr can be Limited or Full.
Projectors are RGB devices, so it's generally recommended to be set to RGB. Full or Limited.
Both the source and the projector should be set to either Limited/Limited or Full/Full.

Movies/TV fall in the Limited color space, with 16 being black and 235 white on the scale.
PC software/Games fall in the Full color space, with 0 being black and 255 white.

Are you using a HTPC?
If yes make sure the player used to watch vidoes has the color space set correctly, if the player has any such option.

The display should be "calibrated" to the color space you want to use.
For the Limited color space:
1.Go to the first post of this thread:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/139-d...libration.html
2.Download the file named MP4 (.7z).
3.Unzip the files.
4.Go to MP4-2c\MP4-2c\Basic Settings
5.Start 1-Black Clipping and adjust the Brightness scale until the 16 bar is black and the visible clipping pattern starts after that.
6.Start 3-White Clipping and adjust the Contrast scale until the 235 bar is white and the visible clipping pattern starts before that.

If an external player is used there are instructions in the thread on how to do the same with a disc.
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post #16 of 16 Old 10-26-2019, 07:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Update , finally got the screen , we got it put together and and a few screw holes later we have it lined up 99.9% correctly. I'm actually very satisfied with the overall image, the colors and whites pop while the black are satisfactory and have detail, it feels like it's gets so large and bright I might need to wear sunglasses in the room though haha, I added a couple pix of it and uploaded a quick video playing destiny 2 on YouTube if you wanna check it out 👍👍👍:

https://youtu.be/9ClP0GOE2Do
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