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post #1 of 19 Old 10-31-2019, 12:47 PM - Thread Starter
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First time projector/screen buyer looking for help !

Hello,
First post here,
So basically I have a room that’s 20x20 14 foot ceilings .
I would like to watch football in the morning ,
Without closing all the shades



I’m looking for a light rejecting motorized 120 inch screen ,

A rep from magnolia hifi came to my house and sent me a quote :

Screen innovation Model No: 5TMFL120SL8
$4520+tax
And
Epson projector Model: 4010 V11H9320
$1790+tax



Is this the right setup for me?

Thx for any input guys!
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post #2 of 19 Old 10-31-2019, 03:34 PM
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A decent projector image will still require closing the shades. I'd consider a large TV. For that same dollar value you could get an 4k 82" Samsung Q90R.

A football game was broadcast in full 4k for the first time recently, so it's a good time to upgrade.

Good luck.
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post #3 of 19 Old 11-01-2019, 12:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes I thought of that option ,
I really want a larger screen 100 inch +
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post #4 of 19 Old 11-01-2019, 12:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunny680 View Post
Yes I thought of that option ,
I really want a larger screen 100 inch +
Projection is difficult to achieve in medium/high ambient light, regardless of projector+screen.
A brighter projector, like the Epson HC3800 might help, but if there is too much light it might not.

For instance, is this picture quality acceptable?



Also check out this thread for a similar discussion:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/23-sc...l#post58730130


LE: ALR screens can have, under certain circumstances, visual artifacts such as a hotspot and sparkle. How far away is the projector going to be mounted? Is the screen 120 inch diagonal?
This fabric has a 60 degree (30R/30L) viewing cone:
https://res.cloudinary.com/buyavproj...te08-chart.png
https://www.projectorscreen.com/scre...mfl120sl8.html

Last edited by noob00224; 11-01-2019 at 12:50 AM.
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post #5 of 19 Old 11-01-2019, 11:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Thx for the reply,
Yes it will be 120 inch diagonally
And
Projector will be about 20 feet away from screen,

The quality with those videos you showed me
I would be ok with ,
I would definitely want better ,
But I guess that’s suitable for watching football in day time .

I did some research last night,
And from what I can gather
the best alr screens at 120 inch motorized are :
elite screens and screen innovations?
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post #6 of 19 Old 11-01-2019, 11:48 AM - Thread Starter
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I’m in Los Angeles btw so if anyone has any local help that would be great !
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post #7 of 19 Old 11-01-2019, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunny680 View Post
Thx for the reply,
Yes it will be 120 inch diagonally
And
Projector will be about 20 feet away from screen,

The quality with those videos you showed me
I would be ok with ,
I would definitely want better ,
But I guess that’s suitable for watching football in day time .

I did some research last night,
And from what I can gather
the best alr screens at 120 inch motorized are :
elite screens and screen innovations?
The minimum recommended throw range for this particular fabric is x1.5.
With that configuration the throw range is x2.29. Less likelihood of visual artifacts like hotspots/sparkle.

This type of fabric is an Angular ALR, which means that light reflected towards it will be reflected back at the same angle.



If light comes from the right, it will be reflected towards the left.
If light comes from the front of the screen , it will be reflected back and an equal angle. This is why no other light source must come from the same position as the projector, since it will be reflected back towards the viewer, negating the advantage of the ALR.

Not an expert, Elite makes good screens, but SI is one of the best regarded screen manufacturers out there.

Dimension calculator for the HC4010:
https://www.projectorcentral.com/Eps...ulator-pro.htm

LE: The fabric is Slate .8.

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post #8 of 19 Old 11-02-2019, 04:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok I got it ,

So my light will be coming from right behind the screen.
I have patio doors

Also I have recessed lights on ceiling .
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post #9 of 19 Old 11-02-2019, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunny680 View Post
Ok I got it ,

So my light will be coming from right behind the screen.
I have patio doors

Also I have recessed lights on ceiling .
Some screens have an opaque layer behind the screen called black backing to stop light coming through. Can't find any info on this screen having it.
Other screen materials are by themselves opaque and do not need an black backing layer.

Perhaps someone who has had experience with this fabric can answer that question.
If not, contact the store or Screen Innovations directly and inquire if this specific model will have an issue with light coming from behind the screen.

If the above issue is resolved then as long as ambient light is not coming from the same direction of the projector, the setup should be fine.
The amount of ambient light will have an effect on how the image looks, so experiment with different lightning scenarios and brightness modes on the projector.

LE: user @Gamecock24 has a SI 0.8 Slate screen, not sure of the exact model. It appears to be opaque.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/23-sc...l#post58246590

Maybe @Gamecock24 can provide further information.

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post #10 of 19 Old 11-03-2019, 05:42 AM - Thread Starter
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So it looks like I narrowed it down to :
Screen innovation
Model No: 5TMFL120SL8
Vs
Elite screen
Evanesce Tab-Tension B CineGrey 5D


The main difference is
Screen innovation is nearly $2,000 more expensive

I talked to both companies tech support ,
And both said that there screen is better .
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post #11 of 19 Old 11-03-2019, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunny680 View Post
So it looks like I narrowed it down to :
Screen innovation
Model No: 5TMFL120SL8
Vs
Elite screen
Evanesce Tab-Tension B CineGrey 5D


The main difference is
Screen innovation is nearly $2,000 more expensive

I talked to both companies tech support ,
And both said that there screen is better .
What about back blacking, do the screens have it?
They appear to have it, but can't be sure, better to confirm.


Some users claim the Cinegrey 3D/5D and Slate 1.2/0.8 are similar.
Have not seen the Slate 1.2/0.8 in person.

Comments on these products:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/23-sc...l#post58092244
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/23-sc...l#post48396121
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/23-sc...l#post58039340
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/23-sc...l#post50279841
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/23-sc...l#post58098150


Perhaps @bdht @Ftoast @MississippiMan have more insight.

There are a few video examples of the Cinegrey 5D on YT, including the one in the 3rd post.
https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...ry=cinegrey+5d
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post #12 of 19 Old 11-04-2019, 09:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes just confirmed they have back blacking ,


So it comes down to :
Elite screen Evanesce Tab-Tension B CineGrey 5D

Or pay $2k more for
Screen innovation 5TMFL120SL8


I have a sample piece of the elite screens being delivered today,

And I’m trying to get a sample of the screen innovations
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post #13 of 19 Old 11-04-2019, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunny680 View Post
Yes just confirmed they have back blacking ,


So it comes down to :
Elite screen Evanesce Tab-Tension B CineGrey 5D

Or pay $2k more for
Screen innovation 5TMFL120SL8


I have a sample piece of the elite screens being delivered today,

And I’m trying to get a sample of the screen innovations
There difference could be in the quality of the entire product, but I don't know if it's 2K$ worth.
A sample can't recreate the entire screen, but gives you an idea.

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post #14 of 19 Old 11-04-2019, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunny680 View Post
Yes just confirmed they have back blacking ,


So it comes down to :
Elite screen Evanesce Tab-Tension B CineGrey 5D

Or pay $2k more for
Screen innovation 5TMFL120SL8


I have a sample piece of the elite screens being delivered today,

And I’m trying to get a sample of the screen innovations
Would like to know how (who) to get screen innovations samples, specifically the slate 1.2. I have had no luck going through their official channels or through a big time dealer of their products.
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post #15 of 19 Old 11-04-2019, 10:03 AM - Thread Starter
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I’m in Los Angeles , I believe I found a sample
I could let you sample it as well if you like

If you want send me a message with your contact info ,
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post #16 of 19 Old 11-04-2019, 10:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Now I need to know what projector to buy

I would like to spend less the $3000

Any suggestions?
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post #17 of 19 Old 11-04-2019, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunny680 View Post
Now I need to know what projector to buy

I would like to spend less the $3000

Any suggestions?
ALR fabrics can have visual artifacts, like hotspots and sparkle. Hotspot means that the image in the center is brighter than the edges. Sparkles means that sparkle like artifact can appear in the middle of the screen. These two artifacts mostly happen when a bright image is displayed.
Factors that can contribute to these artifacts are image brightness (from source), brightness setting on projector, quality of the screen fabric, distance between projector and screen.

The minimum recommended throw range for both Cinegrey 5D and 0.8 Slate fabrics is x1.5 (the width of the screen).
From 20ft away, on an 120" screen, the throw range is x2.29. The likelihood of visual artifacts in this setup is low to none.

For a thread with more visibility post here, for the projector:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-di...-000-usd-msrp/

I'll try to answer the question here.



What is the input for the projector, resolution and frame rate of the broadcast?
Any service in particular, sports channel?

What is the seating distance?


Not many projectors have a throw range large enough to be placed further back so as to not produce artifacts with ALR screens. The x1.5 is a minimum.

Quite a few Epsons have throw ranges over x2.0. They use 3LCD technology, which is not as good as DLP when it comes to motion handling, but plenty of people use them for gaming and watching sports.
Some projectors have a feature called Motion Interpolation/CFI, present on many TV's as well. This can improve the motion in fast moving scenes. This technology is imperfect and can result in visual artifacts.

The rep in the first post suggested the Epson HC4010.
It's bright, has 4K, has long throw up to x.2.84. DCI P3 support.
Has a 10GB HDMI chip, so no 60Hz + 4K + HDR. 60Hz + 4K or 24Hz + 4K + HDR. Not sure if there are any sports broadcasts in HDR.
MI only at 1080p at 24Hz with or without the 4K enhancer. The 4K enhancer enhances the source to 4K.

The Epson 5050UB is the HC4010 version with better blacks, but in a ambient light scenario this does not matter.
It has an 18GB HDMI chip. Slightly brighter than the HC4010.
MI only at 1080p 24Hz without the 4K enhancer.

The Epson HC3800 is brighter than both the 4010 and 5050.
It does not have DCI P3 coverage.
It has an 18GB HDMI chip.
Frame Interpolation not available with 4K input or with 1080p if 4K Enhancement is on.
Throw range up to x2.15.

Benq HT5550. DLP mode.
18GB HDMI chip. Has DCI P3 coverage.
LE: MI works at 4K 60Hz.
Throw range up to x1.9. With this throw range it cannot be mounted further than 19ft.


The Benq would offer better motion handling by default, but it also sits closer and is less bright than the others. x1.9 throw range should be fine to avoid ALR artifacts, but can't be sure.

UHP lamps loose around 25% of their brightness after the first 500h.
15fL is considered bright enough for SDR, 30+fL for HDR. For dark room use, not sure about ambient light use.
These values would also be in full lamp, which means higher noise.

Brightness would be:

Cinegrey 5D (real gain 1.0):
Benq HT5500, brightest mode:
24fL
18fL after 500h

Epson HC4010, brightest mode:
35fL
26fL after 500h

Slate 0.8 gain:
Benq HT5500, brightest mode:
19fL
14fL after 500h

Epson HC4010, brightest mode:
28fL
20fL after 500h

On my Cinegrey 3D with 16fL the image was still viewable with a window open, but it sounds like your setup will have a lot more light.

One of the brighter Epsons, the HC4010/5050UB/HC3800 would be recommended.

If you want to see if Epsons 3LCD is smooth enough versus an DLP, a trip to a store will help. There must be some in LA.


This page features the Benq HT3550 (DLP) and the Epson HC3800. The Benq's throw range is too small for your setup, so just for ca comparison.
In the video game part the Epson (on the right) is quicker because it has better lag, but this is for gaming only.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-di...l#post58718424

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post #18 of 19 Old 11-08-2019, 02:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Hello, you asked a couple questions


Q:What is the input for the projector, resolution and frame rate of the broadcast?
A:The input I’m
Assuming will be hdmi and I’ll probably pick direct tv because I want nfl ticket


Q:Any service in particular, sports channel?
A:not so many movies , more just football and entertaining guest or if company comes over maybe the news or Netflix


Q: What is the seating distance?
A: 18 feet ,which will
Be looking straight to screen

also some seating closer at 12 feet
With about a 30 degree viewing cone

Thx

Viewing cone 30 degrees
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post #19 of 19 Old 11-08-2019, 04:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunny680 View Post
Hello, you asked a couple questions


Q:What is the input for the projector, resolution and frame rate of the broadcast?
A:The input I’m
Assuming will be hdmi and I’ll probably pick direct tv because I want nfl ticket


Q:Any service in particular, sports channel?
A:not so many movies , more just football and entertaining guest or if company comes over maybe the news or Netflix


Q: What is the seating distance?
A: 18 feet ,which will
Be looking straight to screen

also some seating closer at 12 feet
With about a 30 degree viewing cone

Thx

Viewing cone 30 degrees
Since the primary use will be sports, a model with good motion handling is recommended.
DLP projectors are better at motion handling than 3LCD. 3LCD is still ok for sports, although some people might disagree, being a subjective opinion.
The only way to tell is to see each of them in person. At a showroom, or purchase one from a store with a good return policy.


A lot of ALR fabrics including the two mentioned in this thread, recommend a minimum throw range of 1.5x to lessen the probability of visual artifacts like hotspots and sparkle.

Throw range is calculated with the width of the screen. An 120" screen in 16:9 format has a width of 104.6"/8.71'.
A throw of 1.5x would then mean 8.71' x 1.5= 13.065‬'

Unfortunately most DLP projectors don't have a throw ratio much higher than 1.5x. Below are a few DLP options:
Under 3K$ the Benq HT5550 is the only one with a longer throw, at up to 1.9x. A longer throw means less brightness, and the HT5550 is not that bright to begin with.
The Benq TK800M is a bright projector, but the throw range is up to 1.65x.
ViewSonic PX747-4K up to 1.76x throw range.
This is about the throw range DLP's have.

Many Epson models have a throw range greater than 2.0x.

The visual artifacts that can appear with a shorter throw are hotspot and sparkle.
Hotspot is a brighter image on the center than on the extremities. Sparkles also appear with the hotspot in the center of the screen.

They are most visible when projecting a bright image (i.e. white screen). With less bright images they are less noticeable.
To alleviate these artifacts the projector must be placed at a longer throw distance, or reduce the brightness of the projector by selecting a less bright lamp mode.

As an example, this is what the image looks like on a DLP projector on a Cinegrey 3D at 1.5x throw range.
The Cinegrey 3D has less gain and less ambient rejecting properties than the 5D. With it's lower performance the hotspot and sparkle is reduced (vs a 5D).

The hotspot can clearly be seen in the Google homepage shot, less in the others:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-di...l#post57673262

This is with a white matte non ALR screen:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/23-sc...l#post58659830


While the Cinegrey 3D is less likely to hotspot than the 5D, I don't know if it's recommended in your environment due to it's less aggressive performance in combating ambient light, and it sounds like your environment has lots of it.

The pictures are at throw range 1.5x. At longer throw range the hotspot will be reduced.
If you were to pick a DLP projector with a lower throw range, it's unknown how much of these artifacts will be visible, since there are many variables, such as picture brightness, type of mode used (Cinema mode, Vivid mode, etc) lamp mode used, and lamps dim with time.
Even if the projector is placed a throw range of over 2.0x there is no guarantee that the artifacts will be 100% eliminated.


Depending on how you feel about the hotspot, a compromise might be made by getting a shorter throw DLP.


Don't want to make this post any longer, so I will quickly note two other features of projectors:
1.
Lens shift allows the image to be moved up and down. Most DLP's don't have this feature or is very limited, with some exceptions, such as the HT5550.
A regular DLP would need to be placed at around the same level as the top of the screen if ceiling mounted, or bottom of the screen if it's a table placement.
Reason this is important is the ceiling is 14' high.
2.
Motion Interpolation. This feature creates additional frames, so that the image is smoother. Different projectors have MI available at different resolutions and refresh rates.
Which is why I asked about the source. Did not mean HDMI. Is it a cable box?
Not having cable and not being familiar with US broadcast standards, I highly recommend you create a thread with a projector recommendation on this sub forum, since this one (Screens) has less visibility:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-di...-000-usd-msrp/


Some questions:
Are you ok with a hotspot?
Is it necessary to mount the projector in the ceiling?
Would it be acceptable to mount the projector close or even in front of the seating area (ceiling)?

LE: An example of an ALR material similar to the Cinegrey 5D, with an Epson projector. There seems to be no discernible hotspot. It does not mention the distance from projector to screen:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/23-sc...l#post41598081

Last edited by noob00224; 11-08-2019 at 06:34 AM.
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