Screen recommendations for JVC X790R - White, Grey, or ALR - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 24 Old 01-02-2020, 02:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Screen recommendations for JVC X790R - White, Grey, or ALR

I've been debating between the different screen types, but still can't really figure out what do get. I have a fairly non-light controlled room, which is the living room, that's connected to the backyard exit window doors that can be blocked out with blackout curtains, and the kitchen area which can be blocked out with blackout curtains (but above and below the curtains lights can leak through). Below are pictures in the daytime with and without the curtains. However, I do most of the movie viewing at night, the daytime it's mostly casual viewing on low-res <1080 content. The night time I get fairly good light control, but the ceilings are still white and there's some reflections from the furniture as well as the speakers. Got about a ~$1500 budget, but would rather spend less if no significant improvement. Can always buy a more expensive screen few years later when I know exactly what I need. Since the X790R offer pretty good black levels but not overly bright, I'm putting more emphasis in getting a good bright picture with fairly good contrast.

Stats:
JVC X790R
Projector to screen distance ~14 feet (~1.98 zoom).
135 inch screen
10-11 feet ceiling, with a ~20 inch drop from mount.

Debating the following:
1. White (Seymour Glacier White 1.3) - better for HDR, 1.3 gain vs 1.0 gain, best viewing angles, poor contrast/performance during the day, even at night performance may not be as good due to ceiling/wall/furniture reflections.

2. Grey (Silver Ticket High Contrast Grey) - between the white and the ALR, better black levels during the day, but may not reach HDR brightness levels with the X790R, better viewing angles than ALR, no sparkles/hotspotting like ALR, cheaper, may be what I'm leaning toward currently.

3. ALR (Cinegrey 5D vs others)- much better for a non-light controlled room such as mine during the day, but may not be as good for night time viewing which when I do most of my movie watching anyway, viewing range will decrease dramatically, possible hot spotting, possible sparkles, limited placement options due to demands for an angle for ALR.

What do you guys think?
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post #2 of 24 Old 01-02-2020, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solarium View Post
I've been debating between the different screen types, but still can't really figure out what do get. I have a fairly non-light controlled room, which is the living room, that's connected to the backyard exit window doors that can be blocked out with blackout curtains, and the kitchen area which can be blocked out with blackout curtains (but above and below the curtains lights can leak through). Below are pictures in the daytime without the curtains. However, I do most of the movie viewing at night, the daytime it's mostly casual viewing on low-res <1080 content. The night time I get fairly good light control, but the ceilings are still white and there's some reflections from the furniture as well as the speakers. Got about a ~$1500 budget, but would rather spend less if no significant improvement. Can always buy a more expensive screen few years later when I know exactly what I need. Since the X790R offer pretty good black levels but not overly bright, I'm putting more emphasis in getting a good bright picture with fairly good contrast.

Stats:
JVC X790R
Projector to screen distance ~14 feet (~1.98 zoom).
135 inch screen
10-11 feet ceiling, with a ~20 inch drop from mount.

Debating the following:
1. White (Seymour Glacier White 1.3) - better for HDR, 1.3 gain vs 1.0 gain, best viewing angles, poor contrast/performance during the day, even at night performance may not be as good due to ceiling/wall/furniture reflections.

2. Grey (Silver Ticket High Contrast Grey) - between the white and the ALR, better black levels during the day, but may not reach HDR brightness levels with the X790R, better viewing angles than ALR, no sparkles/hotspotting like ALR, cheaper, may be what I'm leaning toward currently.

3. ALR (Cinegrey 5D vs others)- much better for a non-light controlled room such as mine during the day, but may not be as good for night time viewing which when I do most of my movie watching anyway, viewing range will decrease dramatically, possible hot spotting, possible sparkles, limited placement options due to demands for an angle for ALR.

What do you guys think?
This projector does not fit the environment.

The first and best option would be to treat the room for reflections and do proper light control.
Then get a white screen.

135" would be a bit much for this model and the 0.67 gain of the ST HC.


The ALRs mentioned will very likely produce a hotspot and sparkles since the throw range is about 1.5x with the current configuration. Even at higher throw ratios they might still raise the black level.
Other ALR's might or might not raise the black level, but other brands can easily go over budget.

A type of special mix of paint can be used which has ALR properties, will not have a hotspot. Although grey in shade it will not dim the image, and actually lower the blacks and brighten the brighter parts of the image, at the same time. It's not complicated, but does require painting. Can be applied on a smooth surface, wall or cheap PVC screen.
Is also very budget friendly.
This method could be used even if the room is properly treated.
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post #3 of 24 Old 01-02-2020, 03:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
This projector does not fit the environment.

The first and best option would be to treat the room for reflections and do proper light control.
Then get a white screen.

135" would be a bit much for this model and the 0.67 gain of the ST HC.


The ALRs mentioned will very likely produce a hotspot and sparkles since the throw range is about 1.5x with the current configuration. Even at higher throw ratios they might still raise the black level.
Other ALR's might or might not raise the black level, but other brands can easily go over budget.

A type of special mix of paint can be used which has ALR properties, will not have a hotspot. Although grey in shade it will not dim the image, and actually lower the blacks and brighten the brighter parts of the image, at the same time. It's not complicated, but does require painting. Can be applied on a smooth surface, wall or cheap PVC screen.
Is also very budget friendly.
This method could be used even if the room is properly treated.
I uploaded the room pictures during the day, with and without curtains. Unfortunately, the room can't really be treated, as it's primary purpose is the living room and has to be decorated as such. Even if it's going to be cheaper to paint over the walls, since it's not an actual home theater room, I would still prefer having a screen. Maybe I can buy a screen to paint over, but I would rather just buy it already finished. If there's such option to buy a finished painted screen, I would be interested as well. Thanks

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post #4 of 24 Old 01-02-2020, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solarium View Post
I uploaded the room pictures during the day, with and without curtains. Unfortunately, the room can't really be treated, as it's primary purpose is the living room and has to be decorated as such. Even if it's going to be cheaper to paint over the walls, since it's not an actual home theater room, I would still prefer having a screen. Maybe I can buy a screen to paint over, but I would rather just buy it already finished. If there's such option to buy a finished painted screen, I would be interested as well. Thanks
The closest surfaces are of biggest concern which in this case would be the ceiling, floor and wall of screen. Doesn't have to be black paint, something like a dark shade. For the floor use a dark rug.
Better light control if it will be used during the day.

The most popular paint mix is called Silver Fire.
SF can be customized to your setup and would be the best option. ST HC will make the image too dim, the Cinegrey 3D/5D will very likely have a hotspot/sparkle and raise the black level. The whites will be subject to some amount of wash out.
@MississippiMan can help with SF, just make a thread here:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/110-diy-screen-section/
It's not sold already painted, and I don't think any paint mix is, but maybe ask MM about it.
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post #5 of 24 Old 01-08-2020, 09:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Is the only option for me pretty much Silver Fire? I noticed that these are pretty heavily emphasized in this forum, is it because of its incredible value and performance? I'm all for that if that's true, but perhaps someone else can also chime in for alternatives to that?

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The issue is that you are not fighting ambient light. You have either direct light or severe reflections that are just about as bad. Ambient light would mean you can see that you have a non-black wall, relatively evenly lit. What your second picture shows is patterns of light on the projection wall. Those patterns will show up on any screen, white, gray, or ALR. You will never be able to unsee it. track down those light sources and address them. The room does not need to be a cave but the light has to be tamed. Is it coming in through a window, or from another room, or is there a device producing/focusing light in that room? A second layer of sheer light fabric may be enough to diffuse the light coming through a window without a sealed blackout curtain.

If the source is not obvious sit on the floor with your back against the projection wall and follow the light back.

edit: from the shadows on wall, the light is coming from the rear right side of room in the view presented.
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post #7 of 24 Old 01-08-2020, 11:21 AM
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Silver Fire is the most popular and recommended.

@ScottAvery I mentioned it in a previous post, and OP said:
I do most of the movie viewing at night, the daytime it's mostly casual viewing on low-res <1080 content.
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post #8 of 24 Old 01-08-2020, 09:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solarium View Post
Is the only option for me pretty much Silver Fire? I noticed that these are pretty heavily emphasized in this forum, is it because of its incredible value and performance? I'm all for that if that's true, but perhaps someone else can also chime in for alternatives to that?
No, but SilverFire tends to be a little lighter-grey than many manufacturers' light-fighting screens. The lighter-grey color means it doesn't hold blacks as deep as darker-colored screens when faced with off-axis lights or reflections, but it DOES let it keep higher brightness when viewed farther off-center, and this also lets it avoid hotspotting at throw-ratios that are a little shorter than recommended with more aggressive screens.
The darker your screen's color and the higher its peak-gain, the more aggressive it'll be against off-axis lights/reflections, but the faster it'll lose brightness when viewed from seats farther toward either side and the longer your throw-ratio should be to avoid noticeable hotspotting.

So balance toward what you need most; stronger light-fighting with deeper black, or higher off-axis brightness.

Any decent DIY screen will provide incredible value and performance, but require you to do some extra work and material gathering. Though lighter-grey 1.0-1.3gain screens aren't super common, I'm sure some exist within your budget..but whether a light-grey screen is the best option for you depends on your seating arrangement and how badly the lights/reflections are hurting the image.

How do you feel about the JVC's contrast and black-levels when projecting onto the wall right now? A white screen (or flat-white paint) will look brighter and smoother than the wall as-is, but the black-level washout (or lack thereof) will be pretty similar..so if you feel good about the black-levels when projecting onto the wall then something like a 1.0-1.3gain white screen should work great. If you feel like the image on the wall is getting demolished by reflections/lights then some kind of light-fighting screen (a grey screen or paint with around 1.0-1.3peak-gain) should be able to help against that washout...though it won't keep as much off-axis brightness as the white screen will.

How wide is your seating arranged?

Easy $25 DIY black (or any color) ALR paint +$40-$50sprayer screen mix smooth/clean and very easy to learn spraying with little/no mess.
Simple $25-40 DIY black/dark-grey ambient-light rejecting screen, grab two things from a local store..mix..roll..done.
Quick <$250 dedicated black-fabric theater room "A store that sells blinds can help your picture more than a store that sells projectors many times." -bud16415

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post #9 of 24 Old 01-09-2020, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solarium View Post
I've been debating between the different screen types, but still can't really figure out what do get. I have a fairly non-light controlled room, which is the living room, that's connected to the backyard exit window doors that can be blocked out with blackout curtains, and the kitchen area which can be blocked out with blackout curtains (but above and below the curtains lights can leak through). Below are pictures in the daytime with and without the curtains. However, I do most of the movie viewing at night, the daytime it's mostly casual viewing on low-res <1080 content. The night time I get fairly good light control, but the ceilings are still white and there's some reflections from the furniture as well as the speakers. Got about a ~$1500 budget, but would rather spend less if no significant improvement. Can always buy a more expensive screen few years later when I know exactly what I need. Since the X790R offer pretty good black levels but not overly bright, I'm putting more emphasis in getting a good bright picture with fairly good contrast.

Stats:
JVC X790R
Projector to screen distance ~14 feet (~1.98 zoom).
135 inch screen
10-11 feet ceiling, with a ~20 inch drop from mount.

Debating the following:
1. White (Seymour Glacier White 1.3) - better for HDR, 1.3 gain vs 1.0 gain, best viewing angles, poor contrast/performance during the day, even at night performance may not be as good due to ceiling/wall/furniture reflections.

2. Grey (Silver Ticket High Contrast Grey) - between the white and the ALR, better black levels during the day, but may not reach HDR brightness levels with the X790R, better viewing angles than ALR, no sparkles/hotspotting like ALR, cheaper, may be what I'm leaning toward currently.

3. ALR (Cinegrey 5D vs others)- much better for a non-light controlled room such as mine during the day, but may not be as good for night time viewing which when I do most of my movie watching anyway, viewing range will decrease dramatically, possible hot spotting, possible sparkles, limited placement options due to demands for an angle for ALR.

What do you guys think?
Have you looked into the Slate 1.2 from Screen Innovations?
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post #10 of 24 Old 01-12-2020, 03:50 AM
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Have you looked into the Slate 1.2 from Screen Innovations?
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Originally Posted by ALRLIFE View Post
I like the Slate 1.2. However, for your budget I would recommend Elite Prime Vision Polar Star.
Both of these have a minimum throw of 1.5x. Setup has a throw of 1.42x.

The Polar Star has an even lower viewing cone of 70 vs. 90 degrees on the Cinegrey 3D, with an increased gain of 1.3.

Both will probably hotspot.

There's been some indication that the ST HCG is closer to the 3D's capabilities, with even a narrower viewing cone, although there is no minimum throw on the ST website:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/23-sc...et-screen.html
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post #11 of 24 Old 01-13-2020, 05:27 PM
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Maybe take a look into the Seymour Matinee Wide. I believe these have min throw ratio of 1.4x and it says it's 0.9 gain on their website.

Perhaps someone who is using this material can comment on it better than I can.
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post #12 of 24 Old 01-15-2020, 04:13 PM
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i don't get the point to say that alr screens raises the jvc black top quality. it improves with alr. Lot of people uses them with dark room but living white walls so that control much much better the light output from the screen. why you say that? it's totally incorrect
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post #13 of 24 Old 01-15-2020, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Dilt T View Post
Maybe take a look into the Seymour Matinee Wide. I believe these have min throw ratio of 1.4x and it says it's 0.9 gain on their website.

Perhaps someone who is using this material can comment on it better than I can.
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Originally Posted by bdht View Post
SeymourAV lists the minimum throw ratio for the MBW as 1.4 but on analysis here it seems to hotspot at 1.4. I'd add a .4 to any screens reported minimum. The silver ticket and any similar pvc white material will hotspot at 1.4-1.5 throw. At least they do for me...
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i don't get the point to say that alr screens raises the jvc black top quality. it improves with alr. Lot of people uses them with dark room but living white walls so that control much much better the light output from the screen. why you say that? it's totally incorrect
Because it's true.
At least with some ALR screen, higher gain in particular.

A properly treated room with a white screen is superior to a room with white walls and an ALR screen.
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post #14 of 24 Old 01-15-2020, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
Because it's true.
At least with some ALR screen, higher gain in particular.

A properly treated room with a white screen is superior to a room with white walls and an ALR screen.
You're refering to displaying full black and there being a brighter glow in the middle of the screen with the ht2050 right? I wonder if in that instance its due to lens or bulb/panel uniformity instead of hotspotting? If you move off to the side does the glow remain in the middle of the screen or move off to the side? I have uneven black uniformity with a w1070 and a jvc rs45, but with the led projectors black appears perfectly uniform. Same screen, same throw. The led projectors have unparalled uniformity.
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You're refering to displaying full black and there being a brighter glow in the middle of the screen with the ht2050 right? I wonder if in that instance its due to lens or bulb/panel uniformity instead of hotspotting? If you move off to the side does the glow remain in the middle of the screen or move off to the side? I have uneven black uniformity with a w1070 and a jvc rs45, but with the led projectors black appears perfectly uniform. Same screen, same throw. The led projectors have unparalled uniformity.
It's not a uniformity issue, the hotspot moves as the viewing position is moved.
I've read back through this thread, there is a bright spot lower left of center, which on the ALR I haven't observed. Used a light meter a few days ago and confirmed it's there.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/23-sc...l#post58660564

In the dark, no lights, projector off, the screen can be seen, like IPS glow on a monitor with a black background, but dimmer. It appears to glow more than the white surfaces in the room.
If I use a small LED light on an electronic towards the screen, the reflection behaves very similarly to a hotspot with the reflection accentuated. Placed a white paper on the screen and did the test again. The screen was brighter than the paper. The LED's from the network port have the same effect. I assume this the angular ALR fabric at work.
If a small LED has this effect, then I imagine projector will be worse.

The other reason I believe this to be true is the presence of the hotspot, which at least in my case increases raises the black level. This may be true only for positive gain screens. Although the 3D claims a 1.2 gain the 5D claimed 1.5 it was measured in a test at only 1.0. Proportionally the 3D would be 0.8 if it's similar to the 5D. I'm not sure though, the 3D may be positive gain still. Planning on doing some measurements soon.
The Silver Ticket High Contrast Grey seems similar to the 3D and apparently has even lower half gain than the 3D. It was measured at 0.67 gain against a white A4 paper:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/23-sc...l#post59062400
In this video the ST HCG is darker than the 3D/5D:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/23-sc...l#post59061480

The hotspot itself may be less visible, or not visible at all, but may still affect the black level. The issue is if the existance of the hotspot, while it makes the edges dimmer does not raise the black level, or it does, especially with a higher gain screen.
Two other factors might also be at play here:
Adjacent bright light present in the image, and
Reflections from white/colored walls. Some of these reflections will be sent back towards the viewer, and if the screen is positive gain it would raise the black level in that part of the image.
Do reflections in the room raise the black level more on a (positive) gain ALR then a white screen?
From this review (https://www.passionhomecinema.fr/blo...-de-gregory/):
In mixed scenes (mixture of dark and light elements), the black level is not affected by the 20% gain.
However, in darker scenes without overlaying brighter elements, the black rendering will be less powerful than with a screen like the Lusoscreen.
Admittedly, these two technical canvases are not of the same design: 0.9/1 gain for the Lusoscreen Dark Star glides against 1.5 gain for the Cine-Screen.
In direct comparison, the Lusoscreen appears with deeper blacks than the Cine-Screen 1.5 and, on the contrary, the latter offers much more light dynamics than the DarkStar.

It could be interpreted that the Cine Screen does not affect blacks, and the better black level on the Lusoscreen is due to the lower than 1.0 gain. The test seems to be done in a room with light colored walls.
However, should not the reflective capabilities of the ALR with respect to ambient light reflection and the grey base match or even exceed the black level of the Lusoscreen, that makes the darks darker by it's lower gain and reducing (minimally) reflected light? Shouldn't the increased dynamic range (brightness) of the ALR also make the blacks appear darker?

Another ALR fabric with a claimed 1.35 gain (75 degrees half gain) resulted in darker blacks than a white screen with a 1.2 gain claim, in a black velvet batcave and a TW9400 (6050UB), unknown throw ratio:
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Originally Posted by Luminated67 View Post
I have been in contact with Harkness Screens who were quick to reply but after supplying details they have went very quiet so then contacted HiViLux screens from Germany, I’m guessing their material/screens are very similar to Elite, even down to their choice of naming their materials.

They went through their ALR stuff called Cinema 5D, no doubt it does exactly what it says on the tin, viewing with the lights on was no problem and with the lights off it does indeed darken the blacks, unfortunately I would have needed to tweak my settings to counteract the dulling affect of its grey appearance but there’s no denying the ALR technology is impressive.

In practice, how many users actually use these screens with longer throw ranges? I've only seen one user using a Cinegrey ALR with a longer throw. The rooms are also not treated.
This may be a nuanced topic, with many variables, but I believe some ALR screen can raise the black level in some cases. But raise them compared to what? With what projector, in what environment?
Not having exact specifications of the materials themselves makes it more difficult to judge.

The user above wanted to pair a 3D with a JVC RS46 on Eco in a room with white walls at a throw of 1.71x on a 92" screen, with the projector placed close to the center of the screen height wise. A recent purchase of the 3D resulted in a hotspot with a HC3800 at ~1.7x. The brightness on the JVC is lower than on the Epson, however when I change from Full to Eco lamp the hotspot does not appear to change.

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post #16 of 24 Old 01-15-2020, 08:07 PM
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@noob00224 ε-(´・`) フ fascinating. It makes sense with the gain layer focusing light at the viewing area. But as far as perceived black levels go, +gain alr vs white screen, does that gain offset the shade of grey and actually look less black than the white material? You said it looks brighter than the paper but does the paper look blacker?

On a weird side note, I have openback headphones that do something similar, they increase exterior sound in the 150-250hz by 3db.
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post #17 of 24 Old 01-15-2020, 08:52 PM
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@noob00224 ε-(´・`) フ fascinating. It makes sense with the gain layer focusing light at the viewing area. But as far as perceived black levels go, +gain alr vs white screen, does that gain offset the shade of grey and actually look less black than the white material? You said it looks brighter than the paper but does the paper look blacker?

On a weird side note, I have openback headphones that do something similar, they increase exterior sound in the 150-250hz by 3db.
I placed the paper in the upper left portion of the screen.
From the seating position with a light aimed at the center of the screen the screen the paper is brighter than the surrounding area, and about equal to the center of the screen. Aiming the light at the paper made the paper brighter.
To view the hotspot/reflection around the paper I have to get up and shine the light perpendicular at the screen where the paper is. The area around the paper is brighter than the paper itself. The paper is also matte/dull looking, while the screen looks "vivid".
Tried with a few light sources, from a yellow/green LED, the red backlight of a remote, and a flashlight.

Took some pictures a while back with the screen and a white paper in the center of it.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attac...6&d=1573580719
The first case in the four test cases is without any ambient light:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/23-sc...grey-3d-9.html
It can be seen only in some pictures, but the black level on the screen is always slightly higher (in the first scenario) than the paper.

The aforementioned fabric and the screen:
https://www.hivilux.de/en/Cloth-mate...inema-5D-1-35/
https://www.qualgear.com/products/ps...-white-12-gain

Assuming the specifications are accurate, the grey base and the reflective film produce better blacks than the white screen. This is in a complete batcave. Unknown projector throw. I also don't know what part of the screen the ALR fabric was placed relative to the viewing position.

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post #18 of 24 Old 01-15-2020, 10:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALRLIFE View Post
I never have a problem getting deep blacks on my alr screen with white walls.
Deep blacks is a subjective term.

The quoted statement is incomplete, the following posts elaborate on this topic. If a projector is placed too close, especially with a higher gain screen, for example. And compared to what?

With a JVC projector for instance, blacks on a white screen in a batcave will very likely be better than on an ALR screen in a room with white walls, especially if the APL is over 3%. The more light there is in the room (from what's being projected) the worse it will get.
The ambient light reflecting/absorbing properties of the screen are inferior to a room covered in black velvet.

Additionally:
No ALR screen is perfect.
In a room with white walls the pupil will contract making the blacks blacker, but loosing shadow detail. Even if the screen has a positive gain, more brightness is required to compensate for the reduction of light coming through the iris due to the white walls.
In a batcave the eye's iris will expand allowing for less light output from the projector since the image will appear brighter. With a velvet covered room the reduced light output reduces cross reflections. Reducing the light output can be done via closing the projector's iris, which also improves contrast.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-di...n-writeup.html


What's your setup btw? Projector, throw, screen fabric, size, room size (ceiling height).

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post #19 of 24 Old 01-16-2020, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALRLIFE View Post
I have a basement with black walls and a loft with white walls. I also had a Epson 6050 and JVC RS540. The 540's blacks on my alr screen with white walls in the loft was every bit as good as the plain boring white screen in the basement with black walls.

I believe people theorize on a bunch of diffent scenarios here without having any first hand experience with seeing various equipment in person. And a high end alr screen such as my Parallax and EPV Darkstar alr screens show ISF certified beautiful image quality with no discernible visual artifacts.
At what throw ratio? Black walls, does that mean dark paint or fabric? Have you used both the Epson and JVC in both setups?
Which screen do you have, the Parallax or EVP darkstar?

Those are high quality screens and don't cost 5-10 times as much as the 3D/5D for nothing. There are people that do find faults with even the best ALR's. Not the regular consumer I imagine.

The difference between different setups depends on variables, projector, throw range, lamp used, settings, calibration, type of screen, room environment, personal perception.


While I haven't personally tested, I assume that the JVC would provide better blacks in a black velvet covered room than a room with white walls and an ALR screen.
Are you saying my comments regarding the differences between these two setups are inaccurate?
n a room with white walls the pupil will contract making the blacks blacker, but loosing shadow detail. Even if the screen has a positive gain, more brightness is required to compensate for the reduction of light coming through the iris due to the white walls.
In a batcave the eye's iris will expand allowing for less light output from the projector since the image will appear brighter. With a velvet covered room the reduced light output reduces cross reflections. Reducing the light output can be done via closing the projector's iris, which also improves contrast.




The conversation started when discussing a JVC paired with a Cinegrey 3D, at 1.71x throw placed round the same height as the center of the screen, which I don't know how the 3D or other angular would react to it with respect to hotspot. Would probably get brighter.



Do ALR screens raise black level question is restrictive and requires a more detailed response.


With my 3D I get a massive hotspot at 1.5x throw (Benq HT3050). The hotspot does not diminish when changing the lamp to Eco.

As it's seen in the links with the white paper where the hotspot is (center), the screen is brighter than the paper.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attac...6&d=1573580719
The only time the screen is darker than the paper (in the center) (besides lights on), is when there is some part of the image that is bright. Then if there are large black block (like top and bottom bars) they are lighter on the paper.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attac...4&d=1573581035
This is probably because the ALR fabric is better at rejecting ambient light in proximity than the white paper.
All the screenshots:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/23-sc...l#post58809924

From the front with a black image the paper is darker, but moving to the side the screen becomes darker, because of the half gain of the 3D (45 degrees).

The screen claims 1.2 gain, but a measurement of the 5D which claims 1.5 gain , resulted in a 1.0 gain rating. But honestly I don't know if I can believe the manufacturer's claim or the test.

The projector has a empty space between the lens and the casing. Covering this space reduced the hotspot (with a black image projected) visibly. I did not notice this change on a white matte screen.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-di...l#post58568570
This suggests the ALR fabric is raising the black level even when the projected image is a black image.

In the dark (projector off), the screen glows more than the white walls around it.



A recent setup with a 3D and a HC3800 resulted in a hotspot (white background) at ~1.7x throw. The JVC is less bright, but I don't know if that will eliminate the hotspot.


Another way to look at the hotspot is that is the actual brightness/black level of the screen, and the edges are darker because the projector is too close/bright.
However, I suspect that the reflective nature of (some) ALR screens raises the black level in comparison to a grey screen of the same shade, or even a 1.0 white screen.
The other factor that can raise the black level is the cross reflections from the white walls, which the screen can't negate 100%.

I previously had a matte grey Cinegrey the manufacturer claimed to be 1.0. It does not claim any ALR properites, so it can't be 1.0. Looks like 0.7-0.9 The blacks were significantly deeper than the 3D.
If the 3D is 0.8 as the measurement of the 5D suggests, how can it with it's 0.8 gain, darker shade of grey (than the Cinegrey matte) and ALR properties produce worse blacks than a matte grey screen?
If it's a positive gain, the shade of blacks and the ALR film should still produce darker blacks. Unless it's the ALR film that is raising the blacks.

In this review (https://www.passionhomecinema.fr/blo...is-de-gregory/) the ALR fabric was used with projectors with throw ranges between 1.5-1.65x. It does not say in the review the ratio.
The manufacturer claims a gain of 1.5, the reviewer determined it's 1.2.
Reviewer did not observe a hotspot.
It was compared to a Lusoscreen Darkstar Flat with a 0.8 claimed gain. The shade looks darker though, maybe 0.6: https://www.lusoscreen.com/images/flat2_640.jpg
The room appears to have light colored walls with a regular height ceiling.
The reviewer claims the Lusoscreen is darker with better blacks. He also claims that the blacks are not affected by the 20% gain of the ALR.

Since the two fabrics are a similar shade of grey, how can the ALR produce worse blacks than the Lusoscreen? Shouldn't the ALR film actually help with cross reflections in the room, reducing the wash out?
If the ALR film that produces the gain really doesn't raise the blacks, then the ALR screen should produce better blacks than the Lusoscreen.
Generally speaking the ALR properties of a screen should be superior to a simple negative gain grey screen in reducing the negative effects of cross reflections.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALRLIFE View Post
I own the Darkstar, Parallax, Black Diamond, Slate, Dark Energy Pulsar, Absolute Cinema Black, Cinegray 5D, Silver Ticket silver alr material, Carl's Alr Material, Elunevision Aurora, DNP 08-85, and Polarstar.
Holy... present tense? Have you elaborated on the performance of the Elunevision Aurora? Just curious, I have some samples that I got from one of the Chinese companies and some of the layer diagrams were the same as Elunevisions for the Aurora. The material was very sparkly and probably required a very long throw ratio.

My rooms not white, but it's small and the ceilings white, and with a little treatment and a dark grey alr the screen/room has the black level of a large non reflective room.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALRLIFE View Post
I own the Darkstar, Parallax, Black Diamond, Slate, Dark Energy Pulsar, Absolute Cinema Black, Cinegray 5D, Silver Ticket silver alr material, Carl's Alr Material, Elunevision Aurora, DNP 08-85, and Polarstar.

Cinegrey is a cheaper material with average performance. And no alr material can enhance the Benq HT series's ultra low native contrast. I see a lot of misinformation on this forum when it comes to native contrast and white walls. I could go into more detail, however it won't be helpful if you have never seen any of the aforementioned alr screens paired with a high contrast projector in person.
What is the trow you've usually used with the ALR screens, especially with the 5D and Carl's ALR?
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post #22 of 24 Old 02-27-2020, 04:57 AM
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Seymour ALR

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solarium View Post
I've been debating between the different screen types, but still can't really figure out what do get. I have a fairly non-light controlled room, which is the living room, that's connected to the backyard exit window doors that can be blocked out with blackout curtains, and the kitchen area which can be blocked out with blackout curtains (but above and below the curtains lights can leak through). Below are pictures in the daytime with and without the curtains. However, I do most of the movie viewing at night, the daytime it's mostly casual viewing on low-res <1080 content. The night time I get fairly good light control, but the ceilings are still white and there's some reflections from the furniture as well as the speakers. Got about a ~$1500 budget, but would rather spend less if no significant improvement. Can always buy a more expensive screen few years later when I know exactly what I need. Since the X790R offer pretty good black levels but not overly bright, I'm putting more emphasis in getting a good bright picture with fairly good contrast.

Stats:
JVC X790R
Projector to screen distance ~14 feet (~1.98 zoom).
135 inch screen
10-11 feet ceiling, with a ~20 inch drop from mount.

Debating the following:
1. White (Seymour Glacier White 1.3) - better for HDR, 1.3 gain vs 1.0 gain, best viewing angles, poor contrast/performance during the day, even at night performance may not be as good due to ceiling/wall/furniture reflections.

2. Grey (Silver Ticket High Contrast Grey) - between the white and the ALR, better black levels during the day, but may not reach HDR brightness levels with the X790R, better viewing angles than ALR, no sparkles/hotspotting like ALR, cheaper, may be what I'm leaning toward currently.

3. ALR (Cinegrey 5D vs others)- much better for a non-light controlled room such as mine during the day, but may not be as good for night time viewing which when I do most of my movie watching anyway, viewing range will decrease dramatically, possible hot spotting, possible sparkles, limited placement options due to demands for an angle for ALR.

What do you guys think?
I have tried a few ALR screens in full size -- full size - Cinegray 5D (hot spotting - no black backing so reflections from behind), Seymour Matinee Black (Great Light rejection but with the typical trade offs -- of other ALR -- it does not fit your set-up as you need a long throw and wide viewing angle) and Seymour Matinee Wide (fits my situation - wide viewing like a white screen, good picture purity - like Parallax, with some ALR for a light colored room/ reflection reflections -- better than white screen). You can search Matinee Wide AVS to see some photos that I have posted.

Unfortunately, you will be limited on the throw distance for your application. Make sure you look closely at samples from your seating distance IN THE DARK. Many of the ALR have an amped up gain layer. You can see this from the closer seating distance -- Parallax and Matinee Wide do not have much of this with the lower 0.8 gain layer.

Also for UHD on your projector (I have the JVC RS500), the picture will be dimmer for UHD at 135 inches (1.3 gain or 0.8 gain). I have a 103 inch at a 19 ft throw. I have to run on high lamp UHD and get a good effect. At a 1.4 gain (Matinee black) was better but I prefer the purity of the 0.8 screen (depends on how you watch, lights, and distance).

Let me know if you have more questions.



In your situation, your op
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post #23 of 24 Old 03-04-2020, 05:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rrebello View Post
I have tried a few ALR screens in full size -- full size - Cinegray 5D (hot spotting - no black backing so reflections from behind), Seymour Matinee Black (Great Light rejection but with the typical trade offs -- of other ALR -- it does not fit your set-up as you need a long throw and wide viewing angle) and Seymour Matinee Wide (fits my situation - wide viewing like a white screen, good picture purity - like Parallax, with some ALR for a light colored room/ reflection reflections -- better than white screen). You can search Matinee Wide AVS to see some photos that I have posted.

Unfortunately, you will be limited on the throw distance for your application. Make sure you look closely at samples from your seating distance IN THE DARK. Many of the ALR have an amped up gain layer. You can see this from the closer seating distance -- Parallax and Matinee Wide do not have much of this with the lower 0.8 gain layer.

Also for UHD on your projector (I have the JVC RS500), the picture will be dimmer for UHD at 135 inches (1.3 gain or 0.8 gain). I have a 103 inch at a 19 ft throw. I have to run on high lamp UHD and get a good effect. At a 1.4 gain (Matinee black) was better but I prefer the purity of the 0.8 screen (depends on how you watch, lights, and distance).

Let me know if you have more questions.


In your situation, your op
strange that you say the cinegray 5d has no black backing... the sample I received does and its advertised as having this? I just tested samples of the elite vs carls alr and the carls material was noticeably duller and colors where off quite a bit (which I know can be adjusted out with settings)On the plus side, the carls did have less shimmer effect and a wider viewing cone with less drop off but it seems it accepted more ambient like for the same reasons.


I really wish elite would have shipped me the correct samples instead of 2 of the same 5d material with one of them having the 3d label stapled to it... when I contacted them about it they just suggested I go with the 3d material stating it was better with less hotspotting? I kinda would like to see a sample before buying which was the whole reason for purchasing the samples in the first place.

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post #24 of 24 Old 03-04-2020, 06:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
The reviewer claims the Lusoscreen is darker with better blacks. He also claims that the blacks are not affected by the 20% gain of the ALR.

Since the two fabrics are a similar shade of grey, how can the ALR produce worse blacks than the Lusoscreen? Shouldn't the ALR film actually help with cross reflections in the room, reducing the wash out?
If the ALR film that produces the gain really doesn't raise the blacks, then the ALR screen should produce better blacks than the Lusoscreen.
Generally speaking the ALR properties of a screen should be superior to a simple negative gain grey screen in reducing the negative effects of cross reflections.
My understanding of this is any additional light being focused into a narrower brighter viewing cone by the alr screen is bounced back onto the alr screen from that very viewing cone walls resulting in more ambient light coming from where the screen cannot reject it thus raising the black level in these cases. this is where having the darkest back wall with the least amount of reflections helps as the alr screen only helps with ambient light from outside the viewing cone, reflections included.

Last edited by augiedoggy; 03-04-2020 at 06:21 AM.
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