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post #1 of 10 Old 01-05-2020, 12:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Elite Screen ER100DHD3 calculations trouble

Hello everyone,

I bought a Elite Screen ER100DHD3 some time ago, still unpacked, but after doing some math for the upcomming installation I am starting to fear it might not work in my setup. I would greatly appreciate some help.
It's an ALR screen and according to the guideline (which I should have checked earlier) the projection angle from my projector to the center of the screen should be mirror-opposite to the angle of my sitting position eyes level.
But when I mount it where I intend to, the mirror-opposite of the projection angle would be right around my belly, not my eyes. Would this be a problem? Would I lose more from this far from perfect installation, then I would gain from the ALR properties of the screen?

A little info about my setup.
Screen: Elite Screen ER100DHD3
Projector: Epson TW9400/6050UB
Room: Living room, full light control, but with non-treated surfaces and light colored walls (and hence why I opted for the ALR screen)
Mount: Ceiling mount, upside-down projector, about 5-15cm. below ceiling, either ELPMB30 or ELPMB22; the ELPMB30 has angle rotation up to 8° + the vertical lens shift of the projector, I do not how to really calculate those and how they would affect the setup overall, or in the context of the ALR screen angles requirements
Ceiling height: 250cm.
Screen mount: 70cm. from ground level
Sitting position: about 380cm. from screen

Current calculations say:
Projecting distance (from lense) to center of the screen: 380cm.
Angle required with planned ceiling mount to hit center of screen: -12°
The mirror-opposite of +12° would hit my belly, not eyes. :/

Rough calculations say I should mount my projector around 60cm. below the ceiling to get a -6° when hitting the center of the screen and the mirror-opposite +6° would be around my eyes level.
But with such a setup the projector would be right above my sitting position, I would literally hit my head when standing and it would be horrible from a purely aesthetic pov. So it's a no no for me.

Here is a rough model with the calculations of my setup:



I am sorry for the long post, but I would really appreciate some help.
Would this setup work? Is it a big problem that the mirror-opposite angle of the projection would be way below my eyes level?
Would I be better off returning the ALR screen and opting for a regular white or gray screen, even though my room doesn't have proper treatment (it would be fully light controlled, but still - light colored walls would reflect a lot of light I believe)? The thing is I am way past the return window for the screen (it's been laying around for months, unpacked), so it might be difficult to replace, but if that's the preferable option...

Thank you in advance.

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post #2 of 10 Old 01-05-2020, 02:24 PM
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@Yasen Stoynev
The first recommendation is to treat the room with dark paint at least, if not black velvet. And then get a white screen.
There are plenty of resources and users to help with treating the room if you're unsure where to start.

This setup will be superior to the untreated room and an ALR screen.
That 9400 has good blacks and a nice overall picture, should be placed in a proper room. The 3D could be sold.


Secondly, while seating distance to screen diagonal is a subjective ratio, 380cm to 100" inch is rather small.
A very general ratio is 10-12" for every foot in distance. 380cm (12.46') would be 125" to 150". But it's user specific.


Lastly, although the literature indicates the beam coming from the projector will impact the screen and reflect back at an equal angle (but downwards) on my 3D I found that not to be the case.
If fact, watching from that position made the image worse (darker).

I found that even if the eyesight is at the middle height of the screen, the image is still ok. Even sitting up, there was no issue.


If you do decide to keep the screen (3D), could you take a picture of it while projecting a white image?
These screens have a minimum recommended throw of 1.5x in order to avoid hotspot, but on mine it shows a hotspot at 1.5x.
With your setup the throw range is 1.71x
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post #3 of 10 Old 01-06-2020, 04:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
@Yasen Stoynev
The first recommendation is to treat the room with dark paint at least, if not black velvet. And then get a white screen.
There are plenty of resources and users to help with treating the room if you're unsure where to start.

This setup will be superior to the untreated room and an ALR screen.
That 9400 has good blacks and a nice overall picture, should be placed in a proper room. The 3D could be sold.


Secondly, while seating distance to screen diagonal is a subjective ratio, 380cm to 100" inch is rather small.
A very general ratio is 10-12" for every foot in distance. 380cm (12.46') would be 125" to 150". But it's user specific.


Lastly, although the literature indicates the beam coming from the projector will impact the screen and reflect back at an equal angle (but downwards) on my 3D I found that not to be the case.
If fact, watching from that position made the image worse (darker).

I found that even if the eyesight is at the middle height of the screen, the image is still ok. Even sitting up, there was no issue.


If you do decide to keep the screen (3D), could you take a picture of it while projecting a white image?
These screens have a minimum recommended throw of 1.5x in order to avoid hotspot, but on mine it shows a hotspot at 1.5x.
With your setup the throw range is 1.71x
noob00224, thank you a lot for the detailed information and help provided.

The thing is I will be using the projector in a living room, so there isn't much I can do about wall & ceiling colours and other treatment. One of the side walls and the ceiling will be light colored and the wall behind the screen and the column next to it will be sligthly darker. But most of the light wall and the window on it will be covered by a blackout curtain (hopefully dark and velvet). On top of the screen there will be a cabinet hanging from the wall and I might treat it's bottom with velvet tape as well, to at least help a bit. I have some ideashow to improve things, but... I just need to get the place done and then improve step by step where possible, without ruining the interior design.

So overall I shouldn't be that worried about the mirror-opposite of the projection angle not hitting my eyes level? That's good news.

About the seating distance - yeah, I am also afraid I might be a bit too far for a 100" screen, so I might move it slightly closer since I would be using IKEA Poang chairs and I can move them around. 2 years ago on my Acer H6500 I was used to 120" image from no more than 350cm. seatings distance.

As for taking a picture from while projecting a white image - no problem, I will make one as soon as my setup is ready. It will be a while though, since my new place is currently being renovated. So probably after 2 months at least, if not more. :/

Again - thanks a lot for the input. I really appreciate it, since I was really afraid about that mirror-opposite angle of my projection beam not hitting my eyes level. Probably when I move 20-30cm. closer with the seats it would be even better, but... I am yet to finish the setup and test it.

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post #4 of 10 Old 01-06-2020, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yasen Stoynev View Post
noob00224, thank you a lot for the detailed information and help provided.

The thing is I will be using the projector in a living room, so there isn't much I can do about wall & ceiling colours and other treatment. One of the side walls and the ceiling will be light colored and the wall behind the screen and the column next to it will be sligthly darker. But most of the light wall and the window on it will be covered by a blackout curtain (hopefully dark and velvet). On top of the screen there will be a cabinet hanging from the wall and I might treat it's bottom with velvet tape as well, to at least help a bit. I have some ideashow to improve things, but... I just need to get the place done and then improve step by step where possible, without ruining the interior design.

So overall I shouldn't be that worried about the mirror-opposite of the projection angle not hitting my eyes level? That's good news.

About the seating distance - yeah, I am also afraid I might be a bit too far for a 100" screen, so I might move it slightly closer since I would be using IKEA Poang chairs and I can move them around. 2 years ago on my Acer H6500 I was used to 120" image from no more than 350cm. seatings distance.

As for taking a picture from while projecting a white image - no problem, I will make one as soon as my setup is ready. It will be a while though, since my new place is currently being renovated. So probably after 2 months at least, if not more. :/

Again - thanks a lot for the input. I really appreciate it, since I was really afraid about that mirror-opposite angle of my projection beam not hitting my eyes level. Probably when I move 20-30cm. closer with the seats it would be even better, but... I am yet to finish the setup and test it.
For 100" seating would be better at 200-250cm, but it's up to you.

If you could take a picture that would be great, many people are interensted in this fabric and I'm curious if there will be any issues at that throw range.

If the Cinegrey 3D will be kept it's not really worth it to treat the room excessively, just maybe around the screen.
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post #5 of 10 Old 01-06-2020, 08:13 PM
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How did you do these calculations?

I just got a Aeon Cinegrey3D.

I have a 15.5 ft throw distance on a 120in screen, so throw ratio is good.

Projector is mounted on a rear shelf at the same height as the top of the screen.

I could tell immediately when putting it on that the picture was grainy. Watching Ready Player One on my UB420 UHD Blu Ray player showed obvious graininess to the picture. I'm seating below the projector, 16 feet away, and I thought the angles were correct.

I called Elite today and he told me I needed to mount it higher. That it should be higher than the screen is mounted. So I rigged up a 9in riser made of styrofoam to increase the height

The graininess dissapeared a lot. Picture became brighter and more clear. Couldn't beleive the difference increasing the height by 9in made. There is still sparklies on very white scenes like the snow scenes in Hateful8. I think it could be mounted even higher but I had no way to test it more as my styrofoam tower was already sketchy.

The problem though is my Epson 3800 only does 60% vertical shift, and it's maxed out. I had to tilt it slightly. This caused a slight trapezoid effect on the projected image. I guess I can use keystone correction to fix it but I've heard that can effect quality?

So my options are 1) return the screen to Amazon, but it took 4 hours to assemble and mount it 2) raise the shelf height and use keystone correction, but I'm not sure how much that impacts quality 3) return my projector and get the Epson 4010 or even 5050 which has a 90% lense shift and would allow me to avoid keystone correction, but I really don't wanna spend another 1k for the upgrades 5050..
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post #6 of 10 Old 01-07-2020, 02:21 AM
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@Drew Dough if lens shift is used at the limit there could be visual artifacts from the lens.
The lens on an 4xxx/5xxx/6xxx series are better than 3xxx.

Keystone can degrade the image, it's up to you if it's acceptable.

Is there a hotspot present on a white image?

What is the height of the projector lens, eye sight, and top or bottom of screen?

Angles can be calculated with the values above.

Sitting up can simulate a change in eye sight level.
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post #7 of 10 Old 01-07-2020, 06:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
@Drew Dough if lens shift is used at the limit there could be visual artifacts from the lens.
The lens on an 4xxx/5xxx/6xxx series are better than 3xxx.

Keystone can degrade the image, it's up to you if it's acceptable.

Is there a hotspot present on a white image?

What is the height of the projector lens, eye sight, and top or bottom of screen?

Angles can be calculated with the values above.

Sitting up can simulate a change in eye sight level.
The projector lense is 20" from my rear wall and 85" off the ground.

The screen is 25" off the ground on a wall 17 feet away. It's 120" screen so about 60" tall.

Eye sight is average. If sitting upright on the couch it's about 41". If reclined it's less. Picture looks grainy no matter what, sitting, reclining, standing, etc. I was gonna try experimenting today by putting a bookshelf under the current shelf and lowering the PJ to see if that had effect. I just don't beleive it needs to be so high. The lense shift in its current position is already close to maxed out.
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post #8 of 10 Old 01-07-2020, 07:28 AM
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Here's a rudimentary image I made with about 10degree angle. In theory that perfectly puts the image at eye level. Obviously I did something wrong tho. My guess is the photo just isn't squared.
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post #9 of 10 Old 01-07-2020, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Drew Dough View Post
Here's a rudimentary image I made with about 10degree angle. In theory that perfectly puts the image at eye level. Obviously I did something wrong tho. My guess is the photo just isn't squared.

On my setup the angle that the beam hits the screen is 10 degrees.
Eye level however does not sit where the beam would hit at 10 degrees, but 5. Works even with 0, so eye sight is at the mid height of the screen.
The beam that comes from the projector is still 10 degrees.

What do you mean grainy?
Can you take a picture?

Could you also take a picture with just a white image?

LE:
If I place the eyesight at 10 degrees (downwards) the hotspot also moves downwards, but doesn't fit the entire screen. Looks like a sunset (or sunrise).

Last edited by noob00224; 01-07-2020 at 10:47 AM.
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post #10 of 10 Old 01-14-2020, 04:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew Dough View Post
How did you do these calculations?

I just got a Aeon Cinegrey3D.

I have a 15.5 ft throw distance on a 120in screen, so throw ratio is good.

Projector is mounted on a rear shelf at the same height as the top of the screen.

I could tell immediately when putting it on that the picture was grainy. Watching Ready Player One on my UB420 UHD Blu Ray player showed obvious graininess to the picture. I'm seating below the projector, 16 feet away, and I thought the angles were correct.

I called Elite today and he told me I needed to mount it higher. That it should be higher than the screen is mounted. So I rigged up a 9in riser made of styrofoam to increase the height

The graininess dissapeared a lot. Picture became brighter and more clear. Couldn't beleive the difference increasing the height by 9in made. There is still sparklies on very white scenes like the snow scenes in Hateful8. I think it could be mounted even higher but I had no way to test it more as my styrofoam tower was already sketchy.

The problem though is my Epson 3800 only does 60% vertical shift, and it's maxed out. I had to tilt it slightly. This caused a slight trapezoid effect on the projected image. I guess I can use keystone correction to fix it but I've heard that can effect quality?

So my options are 1) return the screen to Amazon, but it took 4 hours to assemble and mount it 2) raise the shelf height and use keystone correction, but I'm not sure how much that impacts quality 3) return my projector and get the Epson 4010 or even 5050 which has a 90% lense shift and would allow me to avoid keystone correction, but I really don't wanna spend another 1k for the upgrades 5050..
I did the calculations roughly in Unreal Engine as I have a 3D layout of my room and setup in the engine. They are probably similar to the ones you did, not exactly accurate.
If you give me all your data - throw distance from the front of the projector to the screen, screen height to the center of the screen from the ground, height of your projector shelve and exact seating distance from screen and eyes level height I could try to quickly put it in unreal and calculate it. I don't know if it would be accurate, but we could give it a go.

noob00224, I have no option at the moment to return the ALR screen so I wiil probably give it a go. And I will do some pictures, but as I mentioned this would happen around beginning or the middle of March at the earliest, since I am yet to move in my new place and both the screen and projector are packed. I hope it works out, because in my part of the world (Bulgaria) such a screen would be almost impossible to sell.
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