163" 2.39:1 Spandex AT with 5050ub - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 12 Old 05-09-2020, 09:29 AM - Thread Starter
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163" 2.39:1 Spandex AT with 5050ub

Hello all,
As the post title suggests I want maximize my wall width and do a large ~163" cinemascope AT screen made out of spandex with my 5050ub. Do you think it will be bright enough? I'd prefer not to run at full power all the time if I can help it but I assume I'm stretching the brightness limits of the 5050 with a screen this size even at full power. My throw distance can be pretty much any throw(36' long room) within the limits to widen for scope and zoom in for 16:9. The calculator comes out to 22'6" throw distance for scope at the "sweet spot" of 1.55 zoom and 1.18 for 16:9 at that distance. Any thoughts? Should I get the zoom as close to 1 as possible for 16:9? I can obvs go smaller but would prefer to use all of the width available. When needed the room can be close to black out conditions and the for now the walls/ceiling/carpet will be lighter beige colors. I also posted about this in the 5050ub thread too so I'm covering my bases from both angles. The projector and the screen. I have some drawings in my build thread if they're needed.
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post #2 of 12 Old 05-09-2020, 09:07 PM
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What is the gain of the material you will use?

Is it a bat cave space or are you dealing with white walls and windows ?


Are you plotting to do 4k HDR or just 1080p?
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post #3 of 12 Old 05-10-2020, 06:10 AM
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No one is plotting anything here.

@Crantastic how bright an image should be is subjective, but IMO that will be too dim. If placed closest to the screen to get the most brightness, it will barely meet the recommendation for SDR. It will definitely not be bright enough for HDR. With an 163" 2.39:1 screen. Spandex will be ~0.8 gain, but maybe lower. With Medium lamp. With High lamp it 's brighter, but it will get to the recommended value for SDR after just 500h.

https://webprojectorcalculator.com/

What can be done:
Get the highest gain AT fabric (~0.95 gain).
Loose the AT requirement and get a white positive gain screen. Or a paint mix.
Decrease the diagonal.
Paint the walls in a dark shade which will make the screen appear brighter.
Get a Panasonic UB player to help with HDR tone mapping. Or madvr. On HTPC there is no streaming, and the Envy is somewhat expensive.
And of course move the projector closest to the screen. From 100% zoom (close) to 0% (far), this model looses ~27% brightness.

Painting the walls will also have a positive effect on black level:
https://www.facebook.com/projectiond...2721894385217/
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post #4 of 12 Old 05-10-2020, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crantastic View Post
Hello all,

As the post title suggests I want maximize my wall width and do a large ~163" cinemascope AT screen made out of spandex with my 5050ub. Do you think it will be bright enough? I'd prefer not to run at full power all the time if I can help it but I assume I'm stretching the brightness limits of the 5050 with a screen this size even at full power. My throw distance can be pretty much any throw(36' long room) within the limits to widen for scope and zoom in for 16:9. The calculator comes out to 22'6" throw distance for scope at the "sweet spot" of 1.55 zoom and 1.18 for 16:9 at that distance. Any thoughts? Should I get the zoom as close to 1 as possible for 16:9? I can obvs go smaller but would prefer to use all of the width available. When needed the room can be close to black out conditions and the for now the walls/ceiling/carpet will be lighter beige colors. I also posted about this in the 5050ub thread too so I'm covering my bases from both angles. The projector and the screen. I have some drawings in my build thread if they're needed.
I am using spandex 120 inch with an Epson 3800 projector in a light controlled room and it's great.

Sent from my GM1917 using Tapatalk
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post #5 of 12 Old 05-10-2020, 05:29 PM
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I have a 140'' / 2:39 spandex screen with an Epson 4010 in a light controlled room. I'm sitting 10' from screen. The projector is 15' from the screen and is in ECO mode for now (it's brand new) The image is great but i would definitely not go with a 160" spandex with my 4010. I think your 5050ub has 200 more lumen but at 20'+, i have the feeling you're going to want more....
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Home theater, Anthem MRX 720 | 1099 LCR | Polk dipole FXi A4 side | FXi A6 back | 4 DIY sealed UXL-18 | 2 DIY Devastator Shallow w/ PA460 | Ep 4000 | Nu6000 | Nx6000 | DIY Spandex 140’’ / 2:39 screen | Epson 4010 | Panasonic DP-UB820
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post #6 of 12 Old 05-10-2020, 09:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
No one is plotting anything here.

@Crantastic how bright an image should be is subjective, but IMO that will be too dim. If placed closest to the screen to get the most brightness, it will barely meet the recommendation for SDR. It will definitely not be bright enough for HDR. With an 163" 2.39:1 screen. Spandex will be ~0.8 gain, but maybe lower. With Medium lamp. With High lamp it 's brighter, but it will get to the recommended value for SDR after just 500h.

https://webprojectorcalculator.com/

What can be done:
Get the highest gain AT fabric (~0.95 gain).
Loose the AT requirement and get a white positive gain screen. Or a paint mix.
Decrease the diagonal.
Paint the walls in a dark shade which will make the screen appear brighter.
Get a Panasonic UB player to help with HDR tone mapping. Or madvr. On HTPC there is no streaming, and the Envy is somewhat expensive.
And of course move the projector closest to the screen. From 100% zoom (close) to 0% (far), this model looses ~27% brightness.

Painting the walls will also have a positive effect on black level:
https://www.facebook.com/projectiond...2721894385217/
Thanks for the detailed reply @noob00224 . I have some more reading to do on calibration, HDR, and tone mapping. I hadn't seen that calculator yet so I'm going to play around with it and see if I can decide where my give and take needs to come from.

As for your suggestions...here's where I'm at:

Get the highest gain AT fabric (~0.95 gain).
-Is this DIY material or are you talking a commercial screen?

Loose the AT requirement and get a white positive gain screen. Or a paint mix.
Decrease the diagonal.
These two go together. If I go smaller I might lose the AT Req, but if I go with a brighter screen then I can go bigger. Then the speakers start getting tight on the sides again. I know there's a solution in there somewhere. I just need to find it, but I'm terrible at making these decisions. I have what my wife likes to call "analysis paralysis". She's absolutely correct. Either way, I need to do some more figuring and testing to see how everything's going to fit. I really love the idea of the 2.39 and I'm a fan of higher immersion . So, smaller screen, speakers on the side, brighter screen, seating forward, and see where I end up. Maybe?

Paint the walls in a dark shade which will make the screen appear brighter.
This is in future plans but for now working towards the goal of just getting things up and usable for the summer. Plus there is some WAF involved.

Get a Panasonic UB player to help with HDR tone mapping. Or madvr. On HTPC there is no streaming, and the Envy is somewhat expensive.
-I almost got the Panasonic, but I was looking to get a new gaming system anyway and grabbed an Xbox One. Figured I could use it to begin with and upgrade later and still have the system. Sounds like I might be "upgradeing" sooner rather than later.

And of course move the projector closest to the screen. From 100% zoom (close) to 0% (far), this model looses ~27% brightness.
- Loses just a bit huh? Ha. I knew it did but I don't think I'd seen a number put on it. So, enlarge the image as much as possible for 2.39 while still allowing for it to shrink to 16:9 CIH I was hoping to do as well. I think that's right. I've seen where people say they're "zooming in" to the smaller screen and it throws me off.

Again, thanks for the detailed input. I've got some more factors/details to think about now to determine my best options. That helps!

Current Setup: Marantz 8012, 5.1 Crap Sony's | Epson 5050ub on a wall, 50' Monoprice Fiber Optic HDMI, Xbox One X, Roku Ultra
Future/WIP: DIY AT(or non-AT?) Screen | LCR DIYSG 1099 x3, Surrounds DIYSG HT-8s x4 | Subs??? Devastators x2? V.B.S.S. x2? Marty(s)? BOSS? | Lots of Misc.
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post #7 of 12 Old 05-10-2020, 09:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Niavlys View Post
I have a 140'' / 2:39 spandex screen with an Epson 4010 in a light controlled room. I'm sitting 10' from screen. The projector is 15' from the screen and is in ECO mode for now (it's brand new) The image is great but i would definitely not go with a 160" spandex with my 4010. I think your 5050ub has 200 more lumen but at 20'+, i have the feeling you're going to want more....
Thanks for this comparison. These are sometimes the best tidbits of info/perspective to use in comparing options. Maybe I just need to go a "little" smaller. I mean, I know 20" less is a lot but 140" isn't tiny either.
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Current Setup: Marantz 8012, 5.1 Crap Sony's | Epson 5050ub on a wall, 50' Monoprice Fiber Optic HDMI, Xbox One X, Roku Ultra
Future/WIP: DIY AT(or non-AT?) Screen | LCR DIYSG 1099 x3, Surrounds DIYSG HT-8s x4 | Subs??? Devastators x2? V.B.S.S. x2? Marty(s)? BOSS? | Lots of Misc.
Currently building The Crantastic DIY Home Theater

Last edited by Crantastic; 05-10-2020 at 10:03 PM.
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post #8 of 12 Old 05-11-2020, 12:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crantastic View Post
Thanks for the detailed reply @noob00224 . I have some more reading to do on calibration, HDR, and tone mapping. I hadn't seen that calculator yet so I'm going to play around with it and see if I can decide where my give and take needs to come from.

As for your suggestions...here's where I'm at:

Get the highest gain AT fabric (~0.95 gain).
-Is this DIY material or are you talking a commercial screen?

Loose the AT requirement and get a white positive gain screen. Or a paint mix.
Decrease the diagonal.
These two go together. If I go smaller I might lose the AT Req, but if I go with a brighter screen then I can go bigger. Then the speakers start getting tight on the sides again. I know there's a solution in there somewhere. I just need to find it, but I'm terrible at making these decisions. I have what my wife likes to call "analysis paralysis". She's absolutely correct. Either way, I need to do some more figuring and testing to see how everything's going to fit. I really love the idea of the 2.39 and I'm a fan of higher immersion . So, smaller screen, speakers on the side, brighter screen, seating forward, and see where I end up. Maybe?

Paint the walls in a dark shade which will make the screen appear brighter.
This is in future plans but for now working towards the goal of just getting things up and usable for the summer. Plus there is some WAF involved.

Get a Panasonic UB player to help with HDR tone mapping. Or madvr. On HTPC there is no streaming, and the Envy is somewhat expensive.
-I almost got the Panasonic, but I was looking to get a new gaming system anyway and grabbed an Xbox One. Figured I could use it to begin with and upgrade later and still have the system. Sounds like I might be "upgradeing" sooner rather than later.

And of course move the projector closest to the screen. From 100% zoom (close) to 0% (far), this model looses ~27% brightness.
- Loses just a bit huh? Ha. I knew it did but I don't think I'd seen a number put on it. So, enlarge the image as much as possible for 2.39 while still allowing for it to shrink to 16:9 CIH I was hoping to do as well. I think that's right. I've seen where people say they're "zooming in" to the smaller screen and it throws me off.

Again, thanks for the detailed input. I've got some more factors/details to think about now to determine my best options. That helps!
Center stage XD at 0.95, actually measured. A lot of screen claims regarding gain are not true.
http://www.seymourav.com/screensDIY.php

If the screen is painted it can't be AT.

A screen that is AT, positive gain, in that size will easily go past the projector's cost. I don't know if these screens come in white. The problem for the grey ones is the grey is negative gain, so to get to a positive gain a stronger positive gain film has to be applied (than a white screen). For these screens the projector needs to be placed further back to avoid visual artifacts. But placing it further back will mean less brightness. So it's not worth it.

The Panasonic UB series has probably the best static tone mapping feature of any player. There are some external boxes but those can be excessively expensive.
I don't believe the Panasonic UB series, and definitely not madvr, can be used for gaming.

Lamps loose ~25% of their original brightness in the first 500h, after that it's linearly to the rated hours. HDR has a much higher brightness requirement than SDR.

A hush box could be built and the lamp used in High.
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post #9 of 12 Old 05-11-2020, 06:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
No one is plotting anything here.

@Crantastic how bright an image should be is subjective, but IMO that will be too dim. If placed closest to the screen to get the most brightness, it will barely meet the recommendation for SDR. It will definitely not be bright enough for HDR. With an 163" 2.39:1 screen. Spandex will be ~0.8 gain, but maybe lower. With Medium lamp. With High lamp it 's brighter, but it will get to the recommended value for SDR after just 500h.

https://webprojectorcalculator.com/

What can be done:
Get the highest gain AT fabric (~0.95 gain).
Loose the AT requirement and get a white positive gain screen. Or a paint mix.
Decrease the diagonal.
Paint the walls in a dark shade which will make the screen appear brighter.
Get a Panasonic UB player to help with HDR tone mapping. Or madvr. On HTPC there is no streaming, and the Envy is somewhat expensive.
And of course move the projector closest to the screen. From 100% zoom (close) to 0% (far), this model looses ~27% brightness.

Painting the walls will also have a positive effect on black level:
https://www.facebook.com/projectiond...2721894385217/
Oh I am always plotting something

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post #10 of 12 Old 05-11-2020, 06:36 AM
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People convince themselves spandex screens provide a good enough image because they are so inexpensive. AT screens sacrifice picture quality for the benefit of audio. Go smaller and sit closer. For a 140 inch screen you should be sitting at 10-13 feet to take advantage of 4K. How far were you planning on sitting from a 163 inch screen? I would do 140 higher gain screen non AT. Center under the screen and left and right speakers outside the screen. Just my two cents.

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post #11 of 12 Old 05-15-2020, 08:12 AM - Thread Starter
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So maybe 140" will work better?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Niavlys View Post
I have a 140'' / 2:39 spandex screen with an Epson 4010 in a light controlled room. I'm sitting 10' from screen. The projector is 15' from the screen and is in ECO mode for now (it's brand new) The image is great but i would definitely not go with a 160" spandex with my 4010. I think your 5050ub has 200 more lumen but at 20'+, i have the feeling you're going to want more....
Quote:
Originally Posted by noob00224 View Post
Center stage XD at 0.95, actually measured. A lot of screen claims regarding gain are not true.
http://www.seymourav.com/screensDIY.php

If the screen is painted it can't be AT.

A screen that is AT, positive gain, in that size will easily go past the projector's cost. I don't know if these screens come in white. The problem for the grey ones is the grey is negative gain, so to get to a positive gain a stronger positive gain film has to be applied (than a white screen). For these screens the projector needs to be placed further back to avoid visual artifacts. But placing it further back will mean less brightness. So it's not worth it.

The Panasonic UB series has probably the best static tone mapping feature of any player. There are some external boxes but those can be excessively expensive.
I don't believe the Panasonic UB series, and definitely not madvr, can be used for gaming.

Lamps loose ~25% of their original brightness in the first 500h, after that it's linearly to the rated hours. HDR has a much higher brightness requirement than SDR.

A hush box could be built and the lamp used in High.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skylarlove1999 View Post
People convince themselves spandex screens provide a good enough image because they are so inexpensive. AT screens sacrifice picture quality for the benefit of audio. Go smaller and sit closer. For a 140 inch screen you should be sitting at 10-13 feet to take advantage of 4K. How far were you planning on sitting from a 163 inch screen? I would do 140 higher gain screen non AT. Center under the screen and left and right speakers outside the screen. Just my two cents.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
So, now I'm looking at around 140" 2.39. Either AT or non-AT. I've attached images of the screen calculator for Seymour XD AT and the Seymour Glacier White non-AT. I'm 99% certain I will use their DIY material as I just realized they are local to me. So, I think that these two materials make the most sense. At 140" it looks like I improve my ftL a decent amount(even after the 500hr window) and AT could work and still provide a decent picture. If I go non-AT with the Glacier White material, assuming approximately 1.1 gain, I should be able to get a really nice picture and my 1099 L/R speakers should fit on the sides and my horizontal 1099 center will fit below. I may need to bring the L/R forward to clear the throw if I toe them in but I think I'm OK with that. My seating location can go out to 12' in AT when accounting for a 2' screen wall offset and 14' in non-AT. I would appreciate any other input that might help in my decision, but I think ~140 screen with a 15' throw on my 5050ub is the way I will go either way. In this slightly smaller configuration with the goal to gain more light I also like the idea of using a low power mode and being able to compensate for bulb life later with the higher power modes. If the fan noise bothers me then I can just do a hush box around the projector retroactively.

Side question: I think I read that 2.39/2.40 are the same thing and people just round up for simplicity. I've been calculating everything explicitly at 2.39 AT. Is that what I should be doing?
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Current Setup: Marantz 8012, 5.1 Crap Sony's | Epson 5050ub on a wall, 50' Monoprice Fiber Optic HDMI, Xbox One X, Roku Ultra
Future/WIP: DIY AT(or non-AT?) Screen | LCR DIYSG 1099 x3, Surrounds DIYSG HT-8s x4 | Subs??? Devastators x2? V.B.S.S. x2? Marty(s)? BOSS? | Lots of Misc.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crantastic View Post
So, now I'm looking at around 140" 2.39. Either AT or non-AT. I've attached images of the screen calculator for Seymour XD AT and the Seymour Glacier White non-AT. I'm 99% certain I will use their DIY material as I just realized they are local to me. So, I think that these two materials make the most sense. At 140" it looks like I improve my ftL a decent amount(even after the 500hr window) and AT could work and still provide a decent picture. If I go non-AT with the Glacier White material, assuming approximately 1.1 gain, I should be able to get a really nice picture and my 1099 L/R speakers should fit on the sides and my horizontal 1099 center will fit below. I may need to bring the L/R forward to clear the throw if I toe them in but I think I'm OK with that. My seating location can go out to 12' in AT when accounting for a 2' screen wall offset and 14' in non-AT. I would appreciate any other input that might help in my decision, but I think ~140 screen with a 15' throw on my 5050ub is the way I will go either way. In this slightly smaller configuration with the goal to gain more light I also like the idea of using a low power mode and being able to compensate for bulb life later with the higher power modes. If the fan noise bothers me then I can just do a hush box around the projector retroactively.

Side question: I think I read that 2.39/2.40 are the same thing and people just round up for simplicity. I've been calculating everything explicitly at 2.39 AT. Is that what I should be doing?
2.39:1 is the correct calculation for most modern scope films. Older scope films are 2.35:1. Some people compromise and build the screen at 2.37. Not really a big deal either way, a small amount of zoom with spillover onto black velvet border eliminates any thin bars.

Get free samples from Seymour and project on them before buying to make sure you like the material you choose. For the AT samples you need to attach a black backing such as velvet in order to properly evaluate. I like their XD material a lot because it is very bright for AT (.95 actual gain) and has nice color balance, but you need to test at your seating distance to see if your eyes will notice the weave. Their Glacier White material is not my favorite - it has a slightly cool bluish bias and it is quite dark. The sample I tested is noticeably darker than a .99 tested gain Silver Ticket white screen. See attached pic of the GW on left and XD on right against the Silver Ticket. The GW is even darker than the XD.

Ross
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