Question : Only for those that are 6500K/D65/REC709 calibrated ... - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 274 Old 06-12-2008, 12:04 AM - Thread Starter
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For those that are 6500K/D65/REC709 calibrated :

A very simple question ,

is Lightning McQueen from "Cars" (blu ray) a rusty orange or is he deep red ?

I recall having a similar discussion along the same lines back when Shrek came out on dvd regarding the true color Donkey is supposed to be and there were varying opinions from those that were properly calibrated .

Thanks ,
- Jason

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post #2 of 274 Old 06-12-2008, 12:18 AM
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Isn't he, the car that is, red on the disc cover not to mention all of the merchandising?

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post #3 of 274 Old 06-12-2008, 02:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes he is red on the cover of the Blu Ray disc box however I am curious what people are seeing with properly calibrated (6500K/D65) REC709 displays .

-- Jason

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post #4 of 274 Old 06-12-2008, 04:48 AM
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post #5 of 274 Old 06-12-2008, 05:05 AM
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Keep in mind that Cars was not mastered in REC709 so viewing it in that gamut would be, um, inaccurate. . .

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post #6 of 274 Old 06-12-2008, 05:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

Keep in mind that Cars was not mastered in REC709 so viewing it in that gamut would be, um, inaccurate. . .

Have Disney/Pixar confirmed it was mastered to REC 601 for Blu-ray release ?

D
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post #7 of 274 Old 06-12-2008, 06:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dazzerxxx View Post

Have Disney/Pixar confirmed it was mastered to REC 601 for Blu-ray release ?

D

It has been posted here repeatedly by a variety of sources that all studios continue to use SMPTE-C monitors in the mastering process.

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post #8 of 274 Old 06-12-2008, 06:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

It has been posted here repeatedly by a variety of sources that all studios continue to use SMPTE-C monitors in the mastering process.

Yes I've seen several posts but I don't recall seeing any "formal" position from the studios on this. Hence the question. Is correct to assume that there should be no color difference between the Blu-ray and DVD version of a given film ?

It's not a big issue for me as I can calibrate to either but it does make you wonder if this is the case why some manufacturers seem hell bent on going way beyond even REC. 709.

D
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post #9 of 274 Old 06-12-2008, 07:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dazzerxxx View Post

Is correct to assume that there should be no color difference between the Blu-ray and DVD version of a given film ?

Who knows?

I assume that they are done as different projects and perhaps by different teams. I would expect differences.

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post #10 of 274 Old 06-12-2008, 07:41 AM
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Quote:


It has been posted here repeatedly by a variety of sources that all studios continue to use SMPTE-C monitors in the mastering process.

No, that is not correct AFAIK. It has been reported that certain members believe that SMPTE-C monitors are used by some of the studios and that we have no way of ascertaining when and where they are used. I have not read any posts claiming that all studios use them all of the time. I have not read of any official confirmation of this information by an industry insider.

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post #11 of 274 Old 06-12-2008, 07:48 AM
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Tom Stites has stated that almost all material is mastered on SMPTE-C monitors and that Rec 709 monitors are rarely used.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

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post #12 of 274 Old 06-12-2008, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlittlejeans View Post

Tom Stites has stated that almost all material is mastered on SMPTE-C monitors and that Rec 709 monitors are rarely used.


I was going to point that out.

You would think that he would know because studio monitors are JVC's bread and butter. OR, he could just be saying that becuase the new JVC videoprocessor only does SMTPE-C.

You make the call.

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post #13 of 274 Old 06-12-2008, 08:07 AM
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This is what Tom Sites said:

Quote:


Yes, they are SMPTE-C, which is the type of monitor that all your material is mastered on. You will see it as it was seen in production. There are still no true Rec 709 pro color monitors in widespread use. The LCD monitors supposedly touted as having 709 color space have other issues.


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post #14 of 274 Old 06-12-2008, 08:09 AM
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McQueen is blue. If you don't believe me, just watch the dream sequence.
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post #15 of 274 Old 06-12-2008, 08:18 AM
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Rec 709 defines more than color gamut...and this is often a point of confusion. HD uses different color matrixing and luma coefficients than Rec 601 as often pointed out by gregr.

You master using these parameters even tho you don't use a true Rec 709 color gamut on your monitor. NONE of the pro HD reference monitors have a true Rec 709 color gamut, not ours, Sony, Panasonic or Ikegami...they are all SMPTE-C. Anyone here care to name a Rec 709 monitor? I realize that you could use a projector properly set up, but that is not the way it's typically done in a mastering environment.

We worked closely with a couple major studios in development of the LUT for the VP2 processor and for now, SMPTE-C was their choice. Because the projectors have a wide color gamut, this could be modified with firmware to switch to 709 when the time comes.

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post #16 of 274 Old 06-12-2008, 08:21 AM
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on my screen, he's red,red,red.

 
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post #17 of 274 Old 06-12-2008, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tstites View Post

NONE of the pro HD reference monitors have a true Rec 709 color gamut, not ours, Sony, Panasonic or Ikegami...they are all SMPTE-C. Anyone here care to name a Rec 709 monitor?

What you say is interesting and really suggests that there is no true REC-709 material. Thus, if we truly want color to be "accurate" we should calibrate for SMPTE-C, even if we prefer the way it looks the other way.

I, for one, can't get too upset about this.

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post #18 of 274 Old 06-12-2008, 08:47 AM
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It looks kind of cherry red in Rec 709 mode and slightly orange red when I switch to Rec 601 mode looking at the BR movie trailer (I don't own this movie).
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post #19 of 274 Old 06-12-2008, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tstites View Post

We worked closely with a couple major studios in development of the LUT for the VP2 processor and for now, SMPTE-C was their choice. Because the projectors have a wide color gamut, this could be modified with firmware to switch to 709 when the time comes.

How likely, or how soon, will the studios switch to Rec709?
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post #20 of 274 Old 06-12-2008, 08:58 AM
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Eric,

I have no clue...I suppose it depends on when good monitoring options appear.

Honestly, from what I see, they're not particularly concerned about the fairly minor differences in the two standards...it ain't broke! It's really only an issue on AVS...

Problem is, everyone is getting out of the CRT business and now the LCD's being offered have their own issues...same with plasma.

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post #21 of 274 Old 06-12-2008, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tstites View Post

It's really only an issue on AVS...

Too funny.

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post #22 of 274 Old 06-12-2008, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tstites View Post

... NONE of the pro HD reference monitors have a true Rec 709 color gamut, not ours, Sony, Panasonic or Ikegami...they are all SMPTE-C. Anyone here care to name a Rec 709 monitor...

Only one data point, a west cost post production company that I am very familar with has 6 Sony BVM 230s and are evaluating Cine-tal's product line.
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post #23 of 274 Old 06-12-2008, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tstites View Post

Eric,

Honestly, from what I see, they're not particularly concerned about the fairly minor differences in the two standards...it ain't broke! It's really only an issue on AVS...

Tom

Thanks for the background. Out of interest if the industry believes it ain't broke what's your opinion on why manufacturers produce products that don't support the standard ?

D
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post #24 of 274 Old 06-12-2008, 10:25 AM
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HHF,

I'm familiar with that display and it's pretty good, but in very limited use...I know some people who evaluated it, but chose to stick with older technology for now.

dazzer,

I think you're mixing two different things here...the production community and the consumer community.

Manufacturers build what they think will best appeal to the largest market...if that means building to a standard then that happens...if it means departing from a standard to achieve greater appeal, then that happens...read into that what you will.

Cheers,

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post #25 of 274 Old 06-12-2008, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tstites View Post

HHF,
dazzer,

I think you're mixing two different things here...the production community and the consumer community.

Manufacturers build what they think will best appeal to the largest market...if that means building to a standard then that happens...if it means departing from a standard to achieve greater appeal, then that happens...read into that what you will.

Cheers,

Tom

Thanks. I'm not sure what to read into to that apart from it sounds similar to the reason some (many?) manufacturers ship displays setup to compete on the showroom floor and achieve greater appeal.

D
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post #26 of 274 Old 06-12-2008, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tstites View Post

It's really only an issue on AVS...

Oh , that hurt !

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post #27 of 274 Old 06-12-2008, 11:10 AM
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I agree that many people (even some true 'professionals' here on the forum) like an expanded color gamut, at least on occasion. And on other occasions, find it distracting. That's why it would be so useful to have 2 or 3 gamut presets in the RS pj's (even without a full CMS) to select expanded, Rec 709, or SMPTE-C. (E.g., like the Planar 8150 has.)
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post #28 of 274 Old 06-12-2008, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tstites View Post

they're not particularly concerned about the fairly minor differences in the two standards...it ain't broke! It's really only an issue on AVS...

Tom,
I think this is a problem that is being addressed, not because of consumer HD (which most studios are not concerned about), but because of digital cinema, with its much wider gamut. Video displays even ones that can do better than 601 are inadequate for the cinema standard. Simple colorimetic conversions results in substantial clipping of out-of-gamut colors. A few folks are experimenting with corrections that avoid the monitor bottleneck. (I'm way out of my league on this subject and only parrot what others have told me) For those interested here is a overview of the DCI spec slide 32 touches on the monitor "problem". and you can read the full spec here

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post #29 of 274 Old 06-12-2008, 11:25 AM
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MD,

True, DCI is a whole 'nuther problem and for that the final eval is typically being done on DCI spec projectors.

Bill,

Yes, if I had my preference, all those color space options would be built into the projector...but the factory chose not to do so with initial versions of the product. Given the results and success of the products, I'm glad they didn't delay the product to add features that would have impacted sales only marginally.

Any time you ask for a feature that will add to the cost of a basic product or delay its introduction, the first question is "how many more will you sell?"...get the picture?

Cheers,

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post #30 of 274 Old 06-12-2008, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tstites View Post

Bill,

Yes, if I had my preference, all those color space options would be built into the projector...but the factory chose not to do so with initial versions of the product. Given the results and success of the products, I'm glad they didn't delay the product to add features that would have impacted sales only marginally.

Any time you ask for a feature that will add to the cost of a basic product or delay its introduction, the first question is "how many more will you sell?"...get the picture?

Cheers,

I appreciate that we (or at least you and JVC!) do live in the real world. But in thinking to spend $5 to 10K on a projector, not having this gamut feature does, I think, put the RS's at a disadvantage wrt some of the competition. (Of course they also do some things extremely well, as we all appreciate.) I wouldn't want to pay $3K or more to have such a feature, but I would happily to pay $1K for it.
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