Input Lag of various projectors - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 424 Old 10-07-2008, 09:03 PM
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hi all,

i want to buy a benq w5000 but i am not sure if the input lag is a issue for me. i am a hardcore gamer (cod4) and wanna play with this pj. has someone tested the lag for this pj yet ?

and has this one realy a game mode ? i cant find any hind in the user manuel.

cheers
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post #32 of 424 Old 10-07-2008, 09:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taubenspikes View Post

hi all,

i want to buy a benq w5000 but i am not sure if the input lag is a issue for me. i am a hardcore gamer (cod4) and wanna play with this pj. has someone tested the lag for this pj yet ?

and has this one realy a game mode ? i cant find any hind in the user manuel.

cheers
taubenspikes

I don't know anything about DLPs and image lag. I've read on one site that it's actually worse, without anything to back it up, but have seen two posters claim it's "near CRT" levels. I'm not about to believe either way without some more information, but there's a dearth of information on the topic currently.

A projector doesn't need a game mode, but if it's got the ability to turn off any extraneous image processing, that alone could improve image lag. Note that the Panasonics, which are the ones "pioneering" this game mode, are actually the ones that I believe have the worst image lag without game mode, so projector that has it may not be the benefit you'd expect.

Enjoying my second TW4000 and my new screen.
As my wife said, "Wow, it really does look a lot better...and if I think that way, imagine how you must think it looks!"
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post #33 of 424 Old 10-08-2008, 01:00 AM
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hi peter,

i have tested two cheap DLP pj with the PixelWorks chip and they are both great for gaming (infocus x10, optoma 803), but the blacks are bad so i want to upgrade to the benq w5000.

it has a better processor (hqv) but maybe this can cause a inputlag ?!
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post #34 of 424 Old 10-08-2008, 08:21 AM
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Based on previous tests shown here and other places, devices with the PixelWorks (Epsons, for one) chip are damn fast. Not sure anyone tested any Reon devices yet, for example.

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post #35 of 424 Old 10-08-2008, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommyv2 View Post

Based on previous tests shown here and other places, devices with the PixelWorks (Epsons, for one) chip are damn fast. Not sure anyone tested any Reon devices yet, for example.

The new Epson TW5000 (Name for 6500/7500 here in Europe) has the Silicon Optics HQV-Reon VX so I don't know how that is affecting the input lag?

I am also interested to know the differences in input lag between modern DLP and LCD!? Mainly because I would be using my projector for gaming as well.

Furthermore, LCD seems to be having issues with the motion handling and the 120hz technology with "frame adding" is supposed to help this. However, 120hz will increase the input lag so your are loosing to benefit of better details in fast games.

= You are not able to use the 120hz due the increased input lag?

BR
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post #36 of 424 Old 10-08-2008, 10:32 AM
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120hz and DLP/LCD/etc has very little to do with lag itself. The lag is occurring long before it gets to the panel/mirrors/etc. That's the problem. All of these technologies can display new information much faster than you can detect, but that's only if what they're getting is on time at all!

LCD definitely has blur, DLP has rainbows, CRT has size, plasma has retention, whatever. All compromises but it's getting a lot better.

As for the new Epsons with VX chips, we'll see. I'm not going to chance it and I'm picking up a TW2000/1080UB with the PixelWorks. One would assume that a HQ unit like the VX would take a little longer to do its magic. No one's sure without testing, but I'm not paying 3 grand to find out!

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post #37 of 424 Old 10-08-2008, 01:41 PM
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Hi, peteer

Thanks! Man, I never thought I'd see input lag tests for projectors. Superb work you are doing here, my friend! Very handy to have someone on the board who not only lives in Japan, but also near Yodobashi, and has the desire to run these tests.

I just wanted to make a few points:

- In one picture, the AE-200 in game mode appears to be ahead of the notebook monitor. This means the AE-200 is really fast, but I suspect it also means that the notebook screen itself has a bit of lag. I know you can't lug a CRT monitor in there to test with, but it's just something to keep in mind.

- It's nice to see some verification that the Game Mode really does work as advertised. A lot TV's game modes are a complete sham, imo, and most reviewers don't even try to verify it. Or else if they do mention it, it's something stupid like "Well, I didn't feel any lag. Good enough for me!"

- The only review site I've found that actually does lag tests on monitors is behardware.com (That's the English version. It's actually a French site). They've got high-refresh CRT monitors, fast-shutter cameras, and everything. I wonder if they could be talked into doing tests on projectors too?

- In behardware.com's tests, they've found that it makes absolutely no difference to lag whether you're using VGA or DVI. I expect you'll get the same results here.

- It's interesting how fast the Epson is. I was leaning towards the AE3000u, but that really makes me reconsider. I think I'll hold off until I can see numbers for the new projectors.
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post #38 of 424 Old 10-08-2008, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommyv2 View Post

120hz and DLP/LCD/etc has very little to do with lag itself.

It'll definitely create lag in games because of the Frame Creation. Think about it:

2 frames come into the projector. Frame Creation creates a 3rd frame, which it places between them, by averaging them together. Now, if the middle frame is created by averaging together the other two frames, that means that it can't be created until the second frame has arrived! And that also means that the second frame will have to be delayed until after the "fake" middle frame has been manufactured and displayed.

So, you are looking at at least a half frame of lag, and that's assuming that the creation of the middle frame takes no time at all, which of course won't be the case.
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post #39 of 424 Old 10-08-2008, 05:36 PM
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Whether the display technology itself (DLP/LCD) panel itself causes lag or not, the majority of input lag, not display lag, (which is what this thread is about) is caused by the processing, not the display panel or DMD.

We know this is true because two different projectors with the same panel or dmd are still measured to have wildly varying input lag.
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post #40 of 424 Old 10-08-2008, 06:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Deuce View Post

Thanks! Man, I never thought I'd see input lag tests for projectors.

Thanks for the kind words. My wife's bigger heavier laptop is able to display at much closer to 60 Hz than my tiny ultralight that I used, so I'll probably bring that with me once they have some of the new projectors on display.

I went to Yodobashi last week, and they still haven't replaced the bulb on the TW2000. I expect they're just letting that room stay the way it is until the new models show up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fkuti View Post

Furthermore, LCD seems to be having issues with the motion handling and the 120hz technology with "frame adding" is supposed to help this. However, 120hz will increase the input lag so your are loosing to benefit of better details in fast games.

= You are not able to use the 120hz due the increased input lag?

Don't confuse 120 Hz and frame creation. If you turn on frame creation to create intermediary frames, then you're injecting some significant image lag.

However, having a 120 Hz refresh should be a good thing for image lag. The faster the refresh rate, the better. 120 Hz should be as fast or faster than a 60 Hz processor, meaning you would see at worst the same performance and at best slightly faster performance. It should not have a major impact though.

Enjoying my second TW4000 and my new screen.
As my wife said, "Wow, it really does look a lot better...and if I think that way, imagine how you must think it looks!"
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post #41 of 424 Old 10-09-2008, 03:11 AM
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My Epson 77c has lightning fast response time, better than any consumer LCD panel I've owned. Suppose that's because it's more of a presentation PJ instead of the likes of a home theater PJ that has all the bells and whistles that us AVSers disable anyway...
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post #42 of 424 Old 10-09-2008, 03:24 AM
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what about the w5000 and reon chipset ???
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post #43 of 424 Old 10-09-2008, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Deuce View Post

It'll definitely create lag in games because of the Frame Creation. T

I didn't say anything about 120hz frame creation. That's the job of the chip, not the panel. A 120hz panel is a good thing and means nothing bag for lag.

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post #44 of 424 Old 10-09-2008, 08:50 PM
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Peteer thanks for the testing it isn't perfect, but it is still very helpful.

The best way to determine image lag is with a light measuring diode and compare image changes to sound changes using an oscilloscope. Feed the light meter into channel 1 and the sound signal into channel 2 of the oscilloscope. Then you need to put on a DVD that has a bright scene change with accompanying audio noise. (An explosion from Diehard should work well. Avia Pro has an audio sync test as well.) Now, not everyone has an oscilloscope but that would be the best way to compare projectors.

Another way to test how fast displays are is at Best Buy where all the TVs are fed the same image. Watch for scene changes, you can almost always spot the slower sets. (And if you can't spot the slower sets then the difference is indistinguishable and that is all that maters.) Samsung's and 120Hz processing TVs almost always have the slowest reaction times. But these aren't projectors so it is not that helpful. You could of coarse do the same thing with a bunch of projectors but you will need a signal distribution amplifier.

A final way is to connect the projectors to an Xbox and use the calibration feature of Rock Band to tell you what the video delay is. My brother's brand new Philips had a 84ms delay when the 120Hz processing was enabled and 42ms delay with it turned off. This method isn't perfect because there is some human error involved.

The oscilloscope is the best way. All other methods are still very helpful though.

Thanks Peteer,

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post #45 of 424 Old 10-09-2008, 08:54 PM
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Now that I think about it, I have everything necessary to do the Oscilloscope test.

I am in the process of moving. Next week I should have some time to do the experiment.

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post #46 of 424 Old 10-09-2008, 10:49 PM
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Very interesting thread. I'm wondering about the difference between the VGA and HDMI inputs. I always had the impression that there was less video processing done on the VGA input. I don't know about other manufacturers, but on Sony TVs and projectors, many of the picture settings cannot be adjusted for VGA input (things like sharpness, color, film mode, noise reduction, and so on). So I would expect there to be more lag for HDMI sources.
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post #47 of 424 Old 10-10-2008, 12:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWigggles View Post

Now that I think about it, I have everything necessary to do the Oscilloscope test.

I am in the process of moving. Next week I should have some time to do the experiment.

-Mr. Wigggles

I would love to see some results from other testing methods...hopefully get some consistent patterns across makers and/or models. Looking forwwward to seeing some of your results when you finish the move.

Enjoying my second TW4000 and my new screen.
As my wife said, "Wow, it really does look a lot better...and if I think that way, imagine how you must think it looks!"
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post #48 of 424 Old 10-15-2008, 10:45 AM
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hi,

i have done some test with my brand new benq w5000.

equipment:
1 x benq w5000 firmware 1.16
1 x 19" crt diamond
1 x camera sony dcs-v3

both are running with the same resolution and frequenz in clonemode. the benq has been connected via hdmi and the crt via dvi<>analog adapter.



first if have selected [email protected]










the next session has been started with [email protected]









as you can see is the inputlag around 80ms at [email protected] and 50ms at [email protected]

gaming was ok, but you feel the light inputlag. if you are a hardcore gamer, you should try the optoma 803 or infocus x10, their inputlag was almost zero.
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post #49 of 424 Old 10-16-2008, 08:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taubenspikes View Post

hi,

i have done some test with my brand new benq w5000.

Very awesome. Thanks for testing and sharing. I wish I had a CRT to test with. (I also wish I could some how have gotten one into the projector room at Yodobashi)

Enjoying my second TW4000 and my new screen.
As my wife said, "Wow, it really does look a lot better...and if I think that way, imagine how you must think it looks!"
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post #50 of 424 Old 10-16-2008, 11:40 AM
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Great test, spikes! Much appreciated.

Question - did you benchmark the HDMI connection vs. the DVI analog? ...on the same display? :-) How awful would it be if the video card lags one of the outputs upon cloning, probably the HDMI. Hehe. Unlikely. Great test, though.

What chip does the W5000 use, anyway?

=Tommy v2=
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post #51 of 424 Old 10-17-2008, 06:36 AM
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Looks like the W5000 uses a Reon VX. Anyone else tested any VX devices? This lag thing might just boil down to the video processor (seems logical!).

What are the old Sanyos using? Pixelworks, just like the Epsons. Both have tested as being very fast. I suppose we can conclude that Pixelworks = fast.

Anyone else agree here?

=Tommy v2=
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post #52 of 424 Old 10-18-2008, 05:02 AM
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yes ! pjs with pixelworks are faster, which i can vouch.
i have done another test, using my crt and a sony cam. the resolution has been set to 1920*[email protected]

here are the candidates.



first you will see the inputlag from the optoma hd800x, better known as hd803.









its between 10 and 30ms, most off the pictures have shown a lag of 30ms.


and the infocus x10









the infocus seems to have less inputlag than the optoma. in average 25ms.

in sport and racinggames (fifa, grid) you wont notice this lag, in shooters like crysis or
cod4 it will take some time for your brain to trim, but after 1 hour of gaming it
shouldn´t be a problem. i am very happy with this two pjs. for me the winner is
the optoma, because of his non existing rainbow effect and the stylish case.

regards,
taubenspikes
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post #53 of 424 Old 10-18-2008, 07:51 AM
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You know, 10-30ms of lag is really, really good. My Sony Bravia on game mode does around 40 and I feel it's fantastic compared to some of the stuff I've used. 30ms is only one frame, and that's pretty good for something not specifically made for this purpose.

I guess the fastest ever device is the Sharp game series LCDs with the "vyper drive" - anyone know what those benchmarked at? I think it was something crazy like 8-12ms.

=Tommy v2=
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post #54 of 424 Old 10-18-2008, 09:45 AM
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30ms is closer to two frames of 60fps video (32ms to be exact). In my opinion this is about the maximum amount of input lag I would consider acceptable for certain things like fighting games, music/rhythm games and some multi-player action games, before it becomes a hindrance. This is purely in my opinion. 1 frame (16ms or less) is actually hard to notice - 32ms is noticeable coming from a CRT but you can compensate without a lot of pain.

Anyone can live with a higher number, but going back to a high input lag display after using a zero lag device like a CRT is a big shock - it almost makes you feel like you're drunk, because of the time delay between input and display.
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post #55 of 424 Old 10-19-2008, 09:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommyv2 View Post

Looks like the W5000 uses a Reon VX. Anyone else tested any VX devices? This lag thing might just boil down to the video processor (seems logical!).

What are the old Sanyos using? Pixelworks, just like the Epsons. Both have tested as being very fast. I suppose we can conclude that Pixelworks = fast.

Anyone else agree here?

Pixelsworks DNX is definitely very fast.

Have any sites compared the lag between the standard Epson 1080UB with Pixelworks DNX to the more expensive Epson 1080UB HQV with Silicon Optics?
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post #56 of 424 Old 10-19-2008, 09:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommyv2 View Post

Looks like the W5000 uses a Reon VX. Anyone else tested any VX devices? This lag thing might just boil down to the video processor (seems logical!).

What are the old Sanyos using? Pixelworks, just like the Epsons. Both have tested as being very fast. I suppose we can conclude that Pixelworks = fast.

Anyone else agree here?


Aww, so since the Epson 6500UB/TW4000 uses the Reon VX, it will probably have similar results to the W5000 I guess.


I wish Epson was offering a 120Hz model with cheaper (but faster) video processing.
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post #57 of 424 Old 10-20-2008, 03:22 AM
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My biggest concern right now is the 3 120Hz PJs coming out: The Panasonic AE-3000U, The Epson 6500UB, and the Sanyo PLV-Z3000.

Since the 120Hz Sanyo PLV-Z3000 is using Pixelworks DNX, don't you guys guess that it will have the least amount input lag?

http://www.sanyo-lcdp.com/english/pdf/z3000z700-p.pdf

http://www.complete-it.ca/projector/SanyoPLV-Z3000.php


My current PJ is an Epson with Pixelworks DNX processing, and I was surprised by how little input lag it has.
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post #58 of 424 Old 10-20-2008, 05:50 AM
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I wonder if Pixelworks even knows how fast they are? They should start marketing this in some way - surely somebody will care. "Our chipsets are in devices fast enough for gaming - don't settle for less!" it might be a good gimmick.

It's hard to say how the new Epsons will be. The spec sheet for the 6500 says Pixelworks WITH Reon VX. I have no idea what that means. Two processors, for extra slowness?

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post #59 of 424 Old 10-20-2008, 06:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommyv2 View Post

I wonder if Pixelworks even knows how fast they are? They should start marketing this in some way - surely somebody will care. "Our chipsets are in devices fast enough for gaming - don't settle for less!" it might be a good gimmick.

It's hard to say how the new Epsons will be. The spec sheet for the 6500 says Pixelworks WITH Reon VX. I have no idea what that means. Two processors, for extra slowness?

If there's no way to disable the Reon, I doubt the 6500 will be that great for gaming. We know that the Epson has no game mode, so I think that answers our question. I'm not dismissing what a wonderful processor the Reon is for cinema use, it's just not ideal for hardcore gamers.

I've flip flopped around trying to decide if I should go for the AE3000 or the 6500, but in all honesty I'm leaning towards the Sanyo Z3000 since it's using the same Epson Cine2fine 120Hz panels as the competition, but is using the older and *presumably faster* Pixelworks DNX.

As long as the Sanyo can get me comparable black levels to the competition, I'll accept whatever downfalls it has if it gets me the best gaming experience.
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post #60 of 424 Old 10-20-2008, 07:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ResOGlas View Post

If there's no way to disable the Reon, I doubt the 6500 will be that great for gaming. We know that the Epson has no game mode, so I think that answers our question. I'm not dismissing what a wonderful processor the Reon is for cinema use, it's just not ideal for hardcore gamers.

I've flip flopped around trying to decide if I should go for the AE3000 or the 6500, but in all honesty I'm leaning towards the Sanyo Z3000 since it's using the same Epson Cine2fine 120Hz panels as the competition, but is using the older and *presumably faster* Pixelworks DNX.

As long as the Sanyo can get me comparable black levels to the competition, I'll accept whatever downfalls it has if it gets me the best gaming experience.

Black levels should be very comparable on those three units. I think it will all come down to desired features. I mean, how dfferent can they be, they all use the same panels...

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