Official epson 6500ub owners thread - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 4399 Old 12-25-2008, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwestley View Post

Art at Projector Reviews has just added more information about his testing of frame interpolation on the Epson. It is an interesting read and there is more to come.

http://www.projectorreviews.com/blog/

Yeah. Do any user that have the 6500UB and a blu-ray player can comment on of 4:4 being broken?

89+ Blu-ray Disc ;)
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post #62 of 4399 Old 12-25-2008, 07:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Art did not say 4:4 it is broken. He did say that there are "real issues" with it and he needs to do more testing. He also said that he "is not yet sold on interpolation." He will conduct more tests and I am sure we will have answers in a short time. He also stated that using interpolation is a discover process for projector reviewers.
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post #63 of 4399 Old 12-25-2008, 07:48 AM
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OK.....I'm VERY confused about something. I have an Epson Powerlight 400 (6500ub on order from AVS).

Concerning brightness/picture modes: I only have the choice of Theater Black 1/2, Normal, Living Room, and Dynamic. Obviously the Theater modes are the low lamp configurations, and the other 3 are the higher lamp modes. You can not manually decide whether the lamp is in high or low mode: It competely depends on which picture mode you are in.


In the 6100/6500 manual, it talks about the "Brightness Control" setting - NOT the same as 'standard brightness/contrast.

FROM THE MANUAL:
Brightness Control: This setting controls the light output from the projector. On high, the projector produces a brighter image and the lamp uses more power. To save power and extend the life of the lamp, select the low brightness setting.

So can you be on theater black 1 and toggle back and forth between high/low lamp?
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post #64 of 4399 Old 12-25-2008, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwestley View Post

Art did not say 4:4 it is broken. He talks about the interrelationship between 4:4 and interpolation. He even tells how he used 4:4 and turned interpolation off. The question that he and others are trying to learn is hot interpolation works on the Epson and which mode gives us the best picture possible.

Yeah but

QUOTE :

'2. 4:4 On, with frame interpolation showing off (still grayed out). Finding some definite artifacts, very noticeable in the card game scenes of Casino Royale, especially with slow panning. There is a “blurring” worse than having 4:4 off. white shirts, heads, etc. seem almost to be losing frames, as there is a much larger jump in changes to the faces/shirts, etc, as the slow moving objects move due to the slow panning.'

I’ll be viewing more different scenes, for this, including other movies, but very evident on that scene, and if consistent, I’d have to recommend not using 4:4???

'

Now he's using it's PS3 in 60hz to feed it and it's ok. But isn't that the whole point of blu-ray to feed direct signal of 24fps? If you feed the projector with 24hz and leave the projector with 4:4 off, isn't the projector just putting it back to 60hz?

89+ Blu-ray Disc ;)
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post #65 of 4399 Old 12-25-2008, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbaseuser View Post

OK.....I'm VERY confused about something. I have an Epson Powerlight 400 (6500ub on order from AVS).

Concerning brightness/picture modes: I only have the choice of Theater Black 1/2, Normal, Living Room, and Dynamic. Obviously the Theater modes are the low lamp configurations, and the other 3 are the higher lamp modes. You can not manually decide whether the lamp is in high or low mode: It competely depends on which picture mode you are in.


In the 6100/6500 manual, it talks about the "Brightness Control" setting - NOT the same as 'standard brightness/contrast.

FROM THE MANUAL:
Brightness Control: This setting controls the light output from the projector. On high, the projector produces a brighter image and the lamp uses more power. To save power and extend the life of the lamp, select the low brightness setting.

So can you be on theater black 1 and toggle back and forth between high/low lamp?

Yes, that is correct. You can select from any of the color modes, then change the lamp brightness, as well.

First select which color mode you want (Dynamic, Living Room, Theater, etc...). Once you've selected your color mode, press "Menu" on the controller, then from the tabs on the left, select "Image." Under the image tab, arrow down to "Brightness control" (NOT BRIGHTNESS!). Press "enter" then you can select from either High or Normal Brightness (high and low lamp).
The lamp setting will affect the actual brightness of the lamp by 30%+ or so.
Hope this helps!
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post #66 of 4399 Old 12-25-2008, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryoohki View Post

Yeah but

QUOTE :

'2. 4:4 On, with frame interpolation showing off (still grayed out). Finding some definite artifacts, very noticeable in the card game scenes of Casino Royale, especially with slow panning. There is a blurring worse than having 4:4 off. white shirts, heads, etc. seem almost to be losing frames, as there is a much larger jump in changes to the faces/shirts, etc, as the slow moving objects move due to the slow panning.'

I'm not sure how the Epson could screw up 4:4. It does not have to do any sophisticated signal processing or interpolation to do 4:4. It just repeats each frame 4 times. I suspect that any artifacts are from the source material rather than the projector.
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post #67 of 4399 Old 12-25-2008, 09:13 AM
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lol man I want to buy a PJ SO BAD but reading AVSForums keeps me from pulling the trigger.

Why can't a good PJ come out that just WORKS...it's always this issue and that issue.

If the interpolation issue is that big a deal and such a problem, I'm assuming that it's because it's brand new tech and will be resolved in a future FW update. Problem is deciding if you want to get a PJ now and deal with FW updates in the future or just wait for them to fix it and buy a PJ then.

I NEED a new pj...my current PJ has 2600 hours on it...the kids need it for a PS3 gaming room. I WANT a new PJ for my HT but man it's hard to pull the trigger on one. I was waiting for this PJ to come out and was very excited by art's initial reaction but now there are big issues/problems with the interpolation. *sigh*

Again, I hope this issue is addressed and fixed asap by epson with firmware...if they do it the PJ will be pretty much perfect(relatively speaking, of course)
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post #68 of 4399 Old 12-25-2008, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pliesj View Post

I'm not sure how the Epson could screw up 4:4. It does not have to do any sophisticated signal processing or interpolation to do 4:4. It just repeats each frame 4 times. I suspect that any artifacts are from the source material rather than the projector.

I suspect a firmware update will fix this. I find it amazing how many products are released with obvious glitches - why doesn't someone who knows what he or she is doing take these things home and test them before the product is released to the general public??? Duh! Will the Epson be another work in progress? Here's a novel thought (Not) - why don't the manufacturers send their products to reviewers BEFORE releasing them so they can have some feedback about potential issues before the product is released? This way the problems can be addressed before dumping it on an unsuspecting public.
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post #69 of 4399 Old 12-25-2008, 09:14 AM - Thread Starter
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It does seem confusing. Let's wait for Art's next blog. If 4.4 is the problem I would think that this could be changed with a firmware update. I am interested in knowing if 4.4 can be made to work correctly without frame interpolation.
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post #70 of 4399 Old 12-25-2008, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwestley View Post

It does seem confusing. Let's wait for Art's next blog. If 4.4 is the problem I would think that this could be changed with a firmware update. I am interested in knowing if 4.4 can be made to work correctly without frame interpolation.

That's why it wouuld be great if people that are getting their machine will get feedback with Blu-ray Playback here on AVSFORUM. I'am still very interested by this model because of the black level it offers but if it's can't take the 24fps (without interpolation) from my blu-ray player, i would consider this a real issue and i would track back to the Z3000 (can't stand AE3000 smoothscreen, but that's just me..)

89+ Blu-ray Disc ;)
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post #71 of 4399 Old 12-25-2008, 09:37 AM
 
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I still want to know if you can get a "straight" image without 4:4 or frame interpolation? Can you get that film look? It seems from Arts blog that that "video" look is there on all modes weather frame interpolation is on or off and he seems to imply that with both 4:4 off and frame interpolation off it still produces that "video" look. Can anyone confirm that you can still get a film like image with the projector? I wish I had one of these for review.
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post #72 of 4399 Old 12-25-2008, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conan48 View Post

I still want to know if you can get a "straight" image without 4:4 or frame interpolation? Can you get that film look? It seems from Arts blog that that "video" look is there on all modes weather frame interpolation is on or off and he seems to imply that with both 4:4 off and frame interpolation off it still produces that "video" look. Can anyone confirm that you can still get a film like image with the projector? I wish I had one of these for review.

That's the thing 4:4 with 24fps material is just supppose to repeat from 4 times so in the end you're getting the same as just 24

89+ Blu-ray Disc ;)
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post #73 of 4399 Old 12-25-2008, 09:46 AM - Thread Starter
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I just emailed Art at projector reviews and told him that some of us are confused. We want to know if there is an issue using 4.4 with 24fps with interpolation turned off. I asked him to look at our questions. Hopefully we will have answers in his next blog.

Merry Christmas to all.
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post #74 of 4399 Old 12-25-2008, 09:52 AM
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Well he says in his blog that when you force the ps3 to NOT 24fps and play 30/60 the frame interpolation works well.

The issue seems to be interpolation and 4:4 when forcing 24fps as I understand it at this point.
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post #75 of 4399 Old 12-25-2008, 10:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Snausy, you are probably correct but there does seem to be some confusion. That is the reason why I emailed. Art. There is debate on the merits on interpolation. The most important thing is that 24fps will work with it turned off.
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post #76 of 4399 Old 12-25-2008, 10:04 AM
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Art has more info regarding 4:4 pull down and frame interpolation on his latest blog

http://www.projectorreviews.com/blog...inema-6500-ub/
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post #77 of 4399 Old 12-25-2008, 10:18 AM
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yea I still want to know if I can get a film like image from the Epson.

I would rather have some blurring on movement and panning rather than have film look artificial and over processed.
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post #78 of 4399 Old 12-25-2008, 10:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Steinfoot, I agree I want a "film like image rather than a digital image." That is the reason why I am interested in seeing the 24fps results with interpolation turned off.
We should have answers in a day or two.
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post #79 of 4399 Old 12-25-2008, 10:46 AM
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I asked him if you can turn off 4:4 and Interpolation and still use 24fps from a Blu-ray. Waiting for reply..

89+ Blu-ray Disc ;)
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post #80 of 4399 Old 12-25-2008, 11:28 AM
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I have mine waiting for me at home and am not too concerned about the interpolation. It can be turned off if it is 'broken' until it gets fixed. the 1080ub did not have this feature and was considered to be one of the best for the price so i would assume that this one is at least that good and as i have read, is better.
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post #81 of 4399 Old 12-25-2008, 11:43 AM
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i've only had this for a few days so i'm still playing with it like everyone else.if you want the "filmlike look" then have the interpolation turned off.turning it on virtually eliminates all of the film grain associated with movies.also,setting the interpolation to "high" along with turning the 24fps off on the PS3 really removes all of the jerkiness associated with this feature.this feature really gives you from my best explanation,the clearest image because of film grain being virtually eliminated completely.it's like looking "out of a window" it is that clear! it is mind-blowing at times!
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post #82 of 4399 Old 12-25-2008, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbeenjammin View Post

i've only had this for a few days so i'm still playing with it like everyone else.if you want the "filmlike look" then have the interpolation turned off.turning it on virtually eliminates all of the film grain associated with movies.also,setting the interpolation to "high" along with turning the 24fps off on the PS3 really removes all of the jerkiness associated with this feature.this feature really gives you from my best explanation,the clearest image because of film grain being virtually eliminated completely.it's like looking "out of a window" it is that clear! it is mind-blowing at times!

If you turn Interpolation Off, watch a movie in 24fps or a scene. Then turn off the 24fps of the PS3 and rewatch this scene, do you see arfifact that are present in 24fps mode? Like Mr. Art said he seen?

89+ Blu-ray Disc ;)
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post #83 of 4399 Old 12-25-2008, 12:26 PM
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Does anyone know if a firmware update can be done by the user or does Epson require the projector to be shipped back to them to have any future firmware update installed? (I suspect its must go back to Epson)

also;

There has been issues with some HD devices that claimed support for 1080p/24 because they actually required the frame rate to be exactly 24/sec. while the actual rate is slightly less at 23.97/sec. I hope Epson didn't made such a stupid mistake with their new projectors.

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post #84 of 4399 Old 12-25-2008, 12:38 PM
 
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I've posted a comment on Arts blog regarding preserving the "film" look with the Epson, and hopefully he replies soon. (pretty dedicated guy to spend time updating his blog during Christmas)

Also, asked why he didn't really mention the frame interpolation very much on either the Sanyo or Panasonic. Maybe it's much more pronounced on the Epson? (video effect)
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post #85 of 4399 Old 12-25-2008, 12:41 PM
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I watched parts of Casino Royale on the 7500 yesterday. It was unwatchable when the interpolation was left on, regardless of whether or not it was on high, normal or low. Less motion artifacts were witnessed on low however it was still not acceptable. The image was film like when the interpolation was off and I did not witness any artifacts. Unfortunately I do not know what the Blu Ray player was set at i.e. if it was at 24fps.

With interpolation on the image is so real that it looks like a movie shot with a livecam except the fast scenes have a strange motion artifacts almost like watching the Matrix.
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post #86 of 4399 Old 12-25-2008, 12:43 PM
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Quote:


If you turn Interpolation Off, watch a movie in 24fps or a scene. Then turn off the 24fps of the PS3 and rewatch this scene, do you see arfifact that are present in 24fps mode? Like Mr. Art said he seen?

just briefly read some of mr. art's blogs.there might be a variance from PJ to PJ.he mentions that he cannot access frame interpolation with 4:4 turned on.funny thing is (4:4) is defaulted in being turned on with mine and you can access FI anytime.strangley,on my PJ,i can't seem to turn it off(4:4).as far as the PS3,i have the 24fps set to auto.Casino Royale does show on the 6500ub as 60hz accordingly.i have no artifacts whatsoever in chapter 12 with the 'card game' scene.it plays flawlessly with FI turned off.
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post #87 of 4399 Old 12-25-2008, 12:55 PM
 
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Can you set your PS3 to off on the 24p option (this should send a 60p signal to your projector), and then play the scene with FI turned on? Art says this reduces the the artifacts of FI, and may be watchable in low or normal mode.

It seems like 24p+FI is a no go. Firmware updates could solve some of these issues, but it depends on how many people complain to Epson.
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post #88 of 4399 Old 12-25-2008, 01:06 PM
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OK I'm old and perhaps a bit slow or confused but I'm having a very hard time sorting out interpolation* from frame creation interpolation** in this thread. Is it just me or have some posts not made the proper distinction?

*pull down interpolation, constant value interpolation, frame repetition interpolation

**polynomial/whatever vector based interpolation
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post #89 of 4399 Old 12-25-2008, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bachusTheOld View Post

OK I'm old and perhaps a bit slow or confused but I'm having a very hard time sorting out interpolation* from frame creation interpolation** in this thread. Is it just me or have some posts not made the proper distinction?

*pull down interpolation, constant value interpolation, frame repetition interpolation

**polynomial/whatever vector based interpolation

In te context of the above discussion when we are talking about 96Hz for 120Hz frame rates, I believe we are all talking about (or should be) where the Epson projector is supposed to have the option to either:
  • Display each frame 4 times without any sort of interpolation (i.e., 4:4 pulldown);
  • Apply an interpolation algorithm to create intermediate frames that are inserted between the original frames. The various settings allow for the creation of a single new intermediate frame or multiple new intermediate frames. For example when just one intermediate frame is created, each original frame and each intermediate frame is repeated 2 times. Alternatively if 3 new intermediate frames are created then each original frame and each intermediate frame is displayed just once.

In each of these modes this display frame rate is 4 times the source frame rate. Thus 24 fps material is displayed at 96 fps and 30 fps material is displayed at 120 fps.

By the way I'm also a relatively 'old' HT owner (I'm 60) and I put together my first HT (using an Advent CRT front projector) in 1974.

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post #90 of 4399 Old 12-25-2008, 01:37 PM
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made a few more observations...1st of all,i'm not a film engineer...ok,here is what i think could possibly be happening...i just watched some NFL footage and the Grammy Awards from my HD DVR along with some HD broadcasts with FI on full blast set to HIGH.conclusion? no jerkiness whatsoever,no matrix like movements and no artifacting.it was as clean as can be.i had to even double check and make sure it was on.my point? these were live broadcasts with no film manipulation whatsoever form the producers.
when you watch a movie,you have to keep in mind that to get the "special effects" done convingcingly,the engineers have to manipulate the scenes and of course the different "frames" to get the shots right.if everyone agrees,turning the FI on makes you "clearly" see everything and in turn sometimes revealing some of these "manipulations" done by the directors to pull off the "the 20ft leap from across the building" sometimes they have to go in there and "add or remove a frame or two.
from these observations,i would say the FI is woking properly.don't you guys remember that when hi-def 1st came around,all of these "hanging wires" and special effects were more noticable since you can clearly see it.i think Frame Interpolation is making some new revelations in manipulations done on film too.just my 2 cents.
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