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post #13021 of 14448 Old 01-01-2016, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
The best way I can describe it would be extreme clarity without any trace of digital-ness to the image as if there were no image processing happening. The image looks wholly natural, sharp and organic.
Now that I have 4K material to watch I agree with you on this point - but when I was watching only upscaled 1080P material I felt the Sony's image was not as calm and natural as any of my high end DLP's, including my 720P Joe Kane Samsung. Whether or not I used Reality Creation (and I always set it to minimum) something looked slightly processed - though I admit it's a helluva great image.

But now, with my Roku 4, and a decent selection of 4K movies to watch the projector looks better. I'm not saying these streams are perfect but at least my projector isn't having to scale an image to a different native resolution. Even if many/most are up-scaled at the mastering stage, maybe that mastering equipment scales better than my Sony projector. I dunno. Or maybe it's just my imagination.

But for now I think a native 4K signal looks completely natural to my eyes on the 1100ES in a way that 1080P material never did.
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post #13022 of 14448 Old 01-01-2016, 10:27 PM
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Haven't seen Mark post lately.
Is he still around?
He is moving. Will probably surface soon.
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post #13023 of 14448 Old 01-02-2016, 05:06 AM
 
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Originally Posted by thrang View Post
This is a significant issue to me, hopefully JVC can address with a firmware update. It is more noticeable than one might think. My wife and I were watching Mission: Impossible Rogue Nation last night, and it was evident quite a bit (often dark hair loses detail quickly for example)
Are using one of the DI modes? Be sure Auto 2 is used as Auto 1 crushes black. Also, I was reading in the owners thread that you can resolve digital 17 with a setting of +6 Brightness, - 1 Contrast, +5 or 4 dark level. That could help with your black crush issue. Also be sure to set RGB black level setting on the projector appropriately.
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post #13024 of 14448 Old 01-02-2016, 05:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Are using one of the DI modes? Be sure Auto 2 is used as Auto 1 crushes black. Also, I was reading in the owners thread that you can resolve digital 17 with a setting of +6 Brightness, - 1 Contrast, +5 or 4 dark level. That could help with your black crush issue. Also be sure to set RGB black level setting on the projector appropriately.
Auto 2, and those work arounds are not adequate. This is an issue for JVC to address. I feel they are pushing the low blacks down to increase the apparent/measured contrast.
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post #13025 of 14448 Old 01-02-2016, 05:16 AM
 
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For measured on/off contrast digital 16 is all that matters. What point would there be to crush black if it wouldn't help with contrast measurements anyways? There's also a gamma calibration suite inside the auto-cal software. Have you tried calibrating the gamma that way to help crush? I agree, it shouldn't be there at all, but it does seem there are several ways to help remedy the issue.
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post #13026 of 14448 Old 01-02-2016, 05:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
For measured on/off contrast digital 16 is all that matters. What point would there be to crush black if it wouldn't help with contrast measurements anyways? There's also a gamma calibration suite inside the auto-cal software. Have you tried calibrating the gamma that way to help crush? I agree, it shouldn't be there at all, but it does seem there are several ways to help remedy the issue.
No Spyder 4 meter, but users should not have to fix that. Vast majority won't be able to.

But the challenges are more than the black crush, as noted...

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post #13027 of 14448 Old 01-02-2016, 06:00 AM
 
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No Spyder 4 meter, but users should not have to fix that. Vast majority won't be able to.

But the challenges are more than the black crush, as noted...
Right, noted. But at that same point, the vast majority of users won't even notice black crush or issues with the gamma. This is no different from people not realizing greyscale or color points aren't proper, but like the gamma, there are tools one can use to correct it. That's not an excuse for the issue, as it shouldn't be there. These issues are not new to JVC projectors and have been discussed on each generation since the RS1 if I remember correctly. It seems to be an issue either with how the panels are driven or possibly their factory calibration QC. They've always needed help around digital 17 and typically a gamma calibration can correct this issue for several hundred hours. I wish it weren't that way as it can be annoying to have to fiddle with settings and extraneous software to get things right, but at least there are options available if you want to help correct them. Manni in the auto-calibration thread has a pretty good guide for newbies on how to use the software and correct it.

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post #13028 of 14448 Old 01-02-2016, 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Normally I'd agree with you but that would go even less in Sonys way in comparison. It has even more limitations than the 1100!
Being the new kid on the block it does sport HDR.

And being able to select BT. 2020 as a color space really makes it shine.

And not that I will have mine long enough to matter but 6000 hour lamps is pretty dang cool too.


4K HDR10- ignore the “rules” and trust your eyes!

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post #13029 of 14448 Old 01-02-2016, 06:19 AM
 
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Originally Posted by joerod View Post
Being the new kid on the block it does sport HDR.

And being able to select BT. 2020 as a color space really makes it shine.
Remember this unit cannot do P3 (only 86%) let alone REC2020. It's a REC2020 "compatible" mode. This setting is simply to tell the projector that the color points of the incoming signal have been encoded for REC2020 and conversion is needed to bring them in closer to REC709.
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post #13030 of 14448 Old 01-02-2016, 07:03 AM
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Huh? That's because I didn't know about a contrast loss issue at the time.....
That is fair enough.....although you are a clever chap....degradation in SXRD panels in other Sony devices was already common knowledge....you could have at least postulated that as a probable factor.Or would that have affected your decision to buy(and predictably re-sell the 1100 )
Funnily enough, Andreas,who was defending the 1100 to the high hilt, did not(as far as i can see) raise this SXRD degradation as a possible cause with you(despite the fact he was already in contact with Sony about said issue).....interesting.


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Ummm.....no. Most movies have a ton of low APL shot scenes:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...t-project.html
Sure they do.....they also have a ton of bright stuff.....it's yin and yang.
That you have a preference for material which is darker is fine....but anyone reading your observations should take that into account.


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John Archer? The guy who uses as little science as possible when doing professional reviews? He writes fluff pieces anyone could do. The stuff Darin, Kris, and Ekki report on takes years of skilled practice and effort to learn and do properly.
And I am not knocking those guys....as I said I esteem them and value their opinions/analysis.

But not just their analysis:

In the twelve years since, John(Archer) has made a living watching and reviewing more TVs, projectors and Blu-ray players than most people knew even existed. http://www.trustedreviews.com/info/j...UvCbply336D.99


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The only thing I can say about this is that Zombie and others simply have more context for what other images look like. That's not to say they haven't seen other projectors, it's more that Zombie get's way more in depth in analysis of these units than the forum members you've just quoted.
As i said ...I respect what Zombie does and he does go into depth.
I dug this out which i remember reading at the time:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...oot-out-7.html

It is Art Feirman giving a mini lecture to Zombie on assessing different parameters(in particular with regards to 3D) when making an analysis.

I personally try to evaluate as many different opinions as possible.

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Right...and you've done an A/B comparison between an 1100ES and X500 or current gen JVC with the images brightness matched next to one another when? I just find it odd that literally every person who's done this and posted on the forum about it, now owns a JVC. Seems like an odd coincidence.
No i have not. Even if I had.....I can give my opinion....it is up to others to evaluate for themselves whether it is relevant ....or to weigh my opinion with the opinion of others.

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The same dealers who make a boatload more in profit from a Sony 4K.

Right, I wonder why they're telling you that the difference in image quality is "massive". How about before you continue arguing against those of us who've done actual A/B comparisons, you go out and do the same?

Andreas did an A/B comparison between the x500 and 1100.
So did you.

You both came out with radically different opinions.

I already owned the 1000 by that point....but had I not..... I would have taken on board both of your opinions.....and the opinions of others......which at that point would have favored the 1100.


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It's just odd to make these arguments so staunchly without actually having seen the two side by side. And yes, the images need to be side-by-side and brightness matched. No one has a memory that good...
Really.
I see you waded in on the Panny 8000 thread awhile back.
Someone on there did a side by side comparison between the 8000 and one of the JVC-E-Shifters(I can't remember which).....they came to the conclusion that the Panny was better(which does not surprise me).

You never saw this comparison in person but still tried to convince everyone that the Panny was inferior.

Sound familiar
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post #13031 of 14448 Old 01-02-2016, 07:08 AM
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I have never seen an X9000 - I might very well prefer it to my 1100ES. Please do not drag me into the stinking pile of poo that you and Seegs have turned this thread into. You both should be ASHAMED of yourselves and honestly I wish the moderators would put a two week ban on both of you so you can think about how badly your bickering makes this place reek.

It's 2016 and you two idiots are still going at each other. Seegs - I can tell you this much - you have/had a lot of respect around here but you are sinking your own reputation with your pathological need to argue.

Both you guys need a time out.

You are right and I apologize.
I remembered this....but incorrectly:
As to your second question I've owned a 2015 JVC with e-shift 3. The Sony has a more natural looking image to my eyes with more detail. It has a much more expensive all glass lens than the JVC's do. It also has a true 4K resolution panel.

For what it's worth Sony's detail enhancing Reality Creation upscales Blurays better to my eyes than did JVC's e-shift.

I also could not stand the noise e-shift made while turned on - to my ears it sounded like a little buzz saw.

As for whether the 1100ES will show more detail with a 4K source than the JVC's - the answer in theory is yes. The JVC's however should show more detail in a 4K picture than a traditional 1080P projector would with the same 4K picture down-rezzed to 1080P.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/218-di...l#post39281018
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post #13032 of 14448 Old 01-02-2016, 07:12 AM
 
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Originally Posted by TheSony4KRises View Post
That is fair enough.....although you are a clever chap....degradation in SXRD panels in other Sony devices was already common knowledge....you could have at least postulated that as a probable factor.Or would that have affected your decision to buy(and predictably re-sell the 1100
The contrast issue was not "common knowledge" over a year ago. Can you please point to some posts that talk about this being a common issue before a couple months ago? I saw Mark's 1000ES (motherboard upgraded to an 1100ES) in October 2014.
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post #13033 of 14448 Old 01-02-2016, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
The contrast issue was not "common knowledge" over a year ago. Can you please point to some posts that talk about this being a common issue before a couple months ago? I saw Mark's 1000ES (motherboard upgraded to an 1100ES) in October 2014.

I can understand if you were not following.....to be fair neither was I.
But there were others who had raised issues in other devices.

LCOS panel degradation-- 2009
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...ges-badly.html

2012:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...stant-use.html

You posted at tail end of that thread....this year.
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post #13034 of 14448 Old 01-02-2016, 07:35 AM
 
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Originally Posted by TheSony4KRises View Post
I can understand if you were not following.....to be fair neither was I.
But there were others who had raised issues in other devices.

LCOS panel degradation-- 2009
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...ges-badly.html

2012:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...stant-use.html

You posted at tail end of that thread....this year.
But it wasn't discussed about this unit or any of the other 4K SXRD projectors. My posts in that thread had nothing to do with contrast loss at the unprecedented level that's occurring on these units. You know the difference. My posts talk about lcd-variant technologies not lasting as long as something like DLP.

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post #13035 of 14448 Old 01-02-2016, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by joerod View Post
At this being the start of 2016 I really don't think it's fair or relevant to compare the newly released models from JVC (unless you're doing 4K versus 1080p) ...
I'm not sure what is meant by this last part. That if somebody compared these 2 projectors they would need to feed the VW1100 a 4K source while feeding the RS500/600 a 1080p source to make the comparison fair? Something else?

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post #13036 of 14448 Old 01-02-2016, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by TheSony4KRises View Post
You are right and I apologize.
I remembered this....but incorrectly:
[I]As to your second question I've owned a 2015 JVC with e-shift 3. The Sony has a more natural looking image to my eyes with more detail.
Yeah I do prefer the Sony to the 2015 JVC's, definitely. But now that JVC has leveled the field in terms of brightness (which matters for my large screen) and supposedly has further refined the performance of the projector (and supposedly quieted down that e-shift buzz) I might prefer JVC.

But I don't know - I actually had an RS500 pre-ordered with AVS to do a head to head comparison but cancelled it and decided to stick with my Sony for now.

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post #13037 of 14448 Old 01-03-2016, 12:26 AM
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Murray,

These are the settings I use on my VPL-VW1100ES:

Calibration Preset: Reference
Reality Creation: On with both Resolution and Noise Filtering at Min
Cinema Black Pro: Advanced Iris on Auto Full and Lamp Control on Low
Motionflow: All settings on Off
Contrast: Max
Brightness: 50
Color: 50
Hue: 50
Color Temp.: D65
Sharpness: 10
Expert Setting: All on Off; however
Smooth Gradation: Low
Film Mode: Auto 1
Gamma: Off (or 2.2)
Color Correction: On
Color Space: BT.709

A note about the contrast setting: With the Advanced Iris off, the bright whites would clip at contrast settings above 88. However, with the Advanced Iris on Auto Full whites would not clip even with the contrast setting at Max. So the Advanced Iris setting has also an influence on the grey scale scale of the projector.

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Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
Was there ever a best settings from people like Zombie, Seegs, Thrang or you Steve for the 1000/1100?
I want to compare it with what Ive been using....

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post #13038 of 14448 Old 01-03-2016, 10:27 PM
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---

"Don't forget that a significant contribution made by the use of high-end cabling is emotional. Knowing that you have the best available causes the listening and viewing to be that much more enjoyable. Observable improvements make it even better."

-From a post on the audio video improvements forum

Last edited by chrisreeves; 01-03-2016 at 11:00 PM. Reason: I asked a question about the Roku 4 which I've now answered for myself.
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post #13039 of 14448 Old 01-04-2016, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by joerod View Post
Being the new kid on the block it does sport HDR.

And being able to select BT. 2020 as a color space really makes it shine.

And not that I will have mine long enough to matter but 6000 hour lamps is pretty dang cool too.

It supports HDR10 but doesn't allow you any way to adjust its PQ curve to compensate for whatever type of mastering display was used, so it is limited in that respect. It also doesn't support the full P3 gamut in its 2020 mode, and takes a decent hit in light output when using it. The JVC allows you to adjust its HDR PQ curve using its gamma controls and supports full coverage of P3 with nearly zero light loss (the filter cuts about a half a foot lambert).


But ultimately projectors supporting HDR is a mixed bag anyways. They just don't have the overhead in light output to reap the real benefits. If the content was mastered like it is for cinema HDR we might get some limited benefit, but with mastering done for 1000+ nit displays, we aren't going to see much if any benefit with projection, even with PQ curves. You're not getting any extra contrast, and we can have the expanded color gamut without HDR.

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post #13040 of 14448 Old 01-04-2016, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
It supports HDR10 but doesn't allow you any way to adjust its PQ curve to compensate for whatever type of mastering display was used, so it is limited in that respect. It also doesn't support the full P3 gamut in its 2020 mode, and takes a decent hit in light output when using it. The JVC allows you to adjust its HDR PQ curve using its gamma controls and supports full coverage of P3 with nearly zero light loss (the filter cuts about a half a foot lambert).


But ultimately projectors supporting HDR is a mixed bag anyways. They just don't have the overhead in light output to reap the real benefits. If the content was mastered like it is for cinema HDR we might get some limited benefit, but with mastering done for 1000+ nit displays, we aren't going to see much if any benefit with projection, even with PQ curves. You're not getting any extra contrast, and we can have the expanded color gamut without HDR.
Technically yes, yes and yes but the 665 throws a clean and pristine image to everyone's eyes that has viewed it here. And engaging BT. 2020 just kicks it into a higher gear. Football looks exemplary. Movies even better... Combine that with the best motion I have seen on a projector to this day and it is even more impressive. Of course the 1100ES is a tad sharper but if you can combine all of that with the..... Oh wait, they may have with the 5000ES... Exciting times!


4K HDR10- ignore the “rules” and trust your eyes!
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Originally Posted by joerod View Post
Technically yes, yes and yes but the 665 throws a clean and pristine image to everyone's eyes that has viewed it here. And engaging BT. 2020 just kicks it into a higher gear. Football looks exemplary. Movies even better... Combine that with the best motion I have seen on a projector to this day and it is even more impressive. Of course the 1100ES is a tad sharper but if you can combine all of that with the..... Oh wait, they may have with the 5000ES... Exciting times!

When setup properly the 665 does throw a spectacular image. But, when comparing HDR playback directly against the JVC with the Sony HDR clips, you see first hand the limitations of the 2020 gamut coverage. Colors look bold and saturated, but also unnatural. When you watch the same footage with the JVC, with full coverage, they look very natural. The higher contrast of the JVC also goes a long way with the clips Sony provided making them look far more dimensional and vibrant. On its own though, the Sony did look really good. The 665 is a great projector no doubt, but given its price point and time of release, it has some limitations that are hard to ignore. Hopefully the 5000ES avoids these issues, at its price point it has no room for limitations or excuses.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
When setup properly the 665 does throw a spectacular image. But, when comparing HDR playback directly against the JVC with the Sony HDR clips, you see first hand the limitations of the 2020 gamut coverage. Colors look bold and saturated, but also unnatural. When you watch the same footage with the JVC, with full coverage, they look very natural. The higher contrast of the JVC also goes a long way with the clips Sony provided making them look far more dimensional and vibrant. On its own though, the Sony did look really good. The 665 is a great projector no doubt, but given its price point and time of release, it has some limitations that are hard to ignore. Hopefully the 5000ES avoids these issues, at its price point it has no room for limitations or excuses.
Coupled with many issues noted here, this Sony model warrants at least a firmware update if it wants to compete with the JVC to fix some of the more glaring defects that shouldn't have made it to the production model. For the price Sony ought to fix some of the software issues that many reviews have pointed out thus far. If they fix the Mi4K setting issue, Reality Creation problems, dynamic iris issues, and tighten their quality control to be sure no units have an issue with focus or color non-uniformity (which given the price should not be there at all) it should make this model quite competitive. Though it would be nice if Sony, even in a unofficial manner, could tell us if they've taken more measures against contrast loss too. I'd be a bit weary buying another Sony unit until it's known this issue has been taken care of.

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post #13043 of 14448 Old 01-04-2016, 09:20 PM
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I've been keeping abreast of all of the discussions of the current round of projectors. From what I've picked up so far and some of our 1100 brethren moving over, and valued opinions from pro's like Kris, I think I'm going to have to get an an RS600 to at least try in my HT. In light of the fact my current thinking is that the 5000 will end up being a bridge too far for me in upgrades (unless my friends at Sony make a deal I can't turn down!), I can't see a downside in at least trying out a 600. After 15 years of Sony, this is a big step for me...

EDIT: I've now got one coming as it was really easy to get one org. So may even be testing in my HT by the end of the week. Now I've got to learn a whole new system of adjustment after so many years of familiar Sony adjustments and menus, Do'h . Plenty of reading to do in the meantime.

Last edited by OzHDHT; 01-04-2016 at 09:54 PM.
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post #13044 of 14448 Old 01-04-2016, 11:46 PM
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Looking forward to your A/B comparison of the RS600 and 1100ES.
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post #13045 of 14448 Old 01-05-2016, 02:11 AM
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So, now that the UHD Premium specs are out, were does that leave the VPL-VW1000ES and VPL-VW1100ES with regards to future UHD disc compatibility?

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/sh...s-spring/28690

Quote from High-Def Digest:
“The UHD Alliance supports various display technologies and consequently, have defined combinations of parameters to ensure a premium experience across a wide range of devices. In order to receive the UHD Alliance Premium Logo, the device must meet or exceed the following specifications:

Image Resolution: 3840x2160
Color Bit Depth: 10-bit signal
Color Palette (Wide Color Gamut)
Signal Input: BT.2020 color representation
Display Reproduction: More than 90% of P3 colors
High Dynamic Range
SMPTE ST2084 EOTF
A combination of peak brightness and black level either:
More than 1000 nits peak brightness and less than 0.05 nits black level
OR
More than 540 nits peak brightness and less than 0.0005 nits black level”

https://www.avforums.com/news/ultra-...and-logo.12203

Quote from AVforums:
“The first of the specifications is for Devices, which currently covers TVs but, as Hanno Basse told us back in September, the UHD Alliance is also looking at including other displays for certification at a later date. Basse announced that over a dozen TVs have already been certified, with more on the way. To be awarded the Ultra HD Premium Logo a TV must be capable of a 3840 x 2160 resolution, 10-bit colour depth and a wider colour gamut of at least 90% of DCI-P3. The certified TVs must also be able to accept the ITU’s Rec.2020 signal-input interface, which doesn't mean the TV has to actually meet the much wider Rec.2020 colour space, but it does have to be able to accept the Rec.2020 container which will be used for future 4K content.”

So, what conclusions can be drawn from this? Below are my speculations. Someone with more knowledge can perhaps comment on this:
Resolution is okay, but the rest seems to be lacking on these projectors if I am not mistaken?
The projector can do DCI/P3, but it will not accept BT.2020 input.
The projector will not accept 3840x2160 resolutions with 10-bit color bit depth at any framerate.
HDR is of course out of the question and is perhaps off less importance on a front projector anyway.

This begs the next question:
Is there anything that can be done to bridge these gaps to ensure compatibility and get a good 4K image? My understanding is that if the input does not support BT.2020 you will not be able to use DCI/P3 color space even though the projector is able to reproduce P3. Also, I have heard that down-converting 10 bit color depth to 8 bit color depth will not render good results. Are there any differences between the VW1000ES and the VW1100ES with regards to this (except for HDPC 2.2)?

What do you think?
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post #13046 of 14448 Old 01-05-2016, 08:12 AM
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The 1100ES will accept a BT2020 color input, that shouldn't be an issue. It can also accept a 2160p 10 bit signal for 24p, which is what the majority of movies will be. HDR is not an option for the 1100ES, but is available on the 665ES with the same limitations stated before. The big question is whether sources will have the ability to turn off the HDR portion of a signal yet still retain the other benefits (wider gamut, bit depth and resolution) so that non-HDR displays can still get all the other benefits. I have a hard time believing that future UHD sources won't have this option, but we don't know that yet for sure.

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post #13047 of 14448 Old 01-05-2016, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OzHDHT View Post
I've been keeping abreast of all of the discussions of the current round of projectors. From what I've picked up so far and some of our 1100 brethren moving over, and valued opinions from pro's like Kris, I think I'm going to have to get an an RS600 to at least try in my HT.
I assume you have the 1100 right now? I look forward to your comments of comparision, to the JVC.
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post #13048 of 14448 Old 01-05-2016, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
The 1100ES will accept a BT2020 color input, that shouldn't be an issue. It can also accept a 2160p 10 bit signal for 24p, which is what the majority of movies will be. HDR is not an option for the 1100ES, but is available on the 665ES with the same limitations stated before. The big question is whether sources will have the ability to turn off the HDR portion of a signal yet still retain the other benefits (wider gamut, bit depth and resolution) so that non-HDR displays can still get all the other benefits. I have a hard time believing that future UHD sources won't have this option, but we don't know that yet for sure.
Does this apply for the VW1000ES also? I know it does not have HDCP 2.2, but that can be solved with other solutions.

How much of P3 do these projectors cover?
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post #13049 of 14448 Old 01-05-2016, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NORLL View Post
Does this apply for the VW1000ES also? I know it does not have HDCP 2.2, but that can be solved with other solutions.

How much of P3 do these projectors cover?

I'm not sure on the 1000ES. I don't remember how much changed with the HDMI board swap. I also don't remember off hand how much of the P3 gamut the 1100ES covered and how much light output was lost to get there. I remember the light loss being pretty substantial.

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post #13050 of 14448 Old 01-05-2016, 10:56 AM
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I want to say the 1100ES P3 light loss was 25% but don't quote me.
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