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post #13021 of 19418 Old 12-27-2015, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sittler27 View Post
Manni,

do you have a link to a post you have that shows an exact step-by-step on how to do the autocal properly?

its listed here --> https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...500-rs600.html
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post #13022 of 19418 Old 12-27-2015, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by lancenell View Post
Ok thanks. I'm not sure I've read any posts whether new RS500/600 owners are using 4k eShift with 3D HD sources, and how well it works versus 1080P.
Have you tried the actual JVC owners thread (which lately this thread has seemingly become & don't get me wrong I don't mind having to follow two different threads for my owned machine knowldgebase, but it sure would be a whole lot easier to only need one… I would imagine the other non-owners at this point feel the same way when they come looking for "shootout" information to assist them in their buying decision, then have to read pages upon pages of JVC owners commenting about their new machine). Just my 2 drachmas.

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post #13023 of 19418 Old 12-27-2015, 08:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sittler27 View Post
Anyone know if it's necessary to enter a screen code in if doing a full calibration with a colorimeter off the screen anyways?

If so, what code should I use for Dalite HD Progressive (JKP) 1.3 gain?
it's not necessary if you are calibrating from the screen. let us know how you make out with the gamma.
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post #13024 of 19418 Old 12-27-2015, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Sittler27 View Post
The only other major difference from yours and mine that may affect things is u are at 4:2:2 and I'm at 4:4:4 (both on Oppo and on JVC)
Can u try 4:4:4 and keep it at Standard (not Superwhite)?

Also, what screen u using and what is your throw distance?

Also, keep in mind I'm using an x750r.
Ok, I set the oppo and the lumagen to output 4:4:4 and used standard in the JVC.

I noticed no significant difference. I can still just see 17.

Also, out of curiosity I looked at enhanced mode. In enhanced, I brought the brightness down as far it it can go (-50) and it could still resolve all the way down to around 14. Even if I set the gamma to its highest 2.6 I could not get it to only resolve 17 and above. It was resolving down to 15 (maybe 14?).
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post #13025 of 19418 Old 12-27-2015, 08:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post
You can do gamma only and see what you get (that's the first step of the autocal process)..

Regarding your gamut, have you created a custom colour profile with standard rec-709 coordinates and calibrated to that? That's the only way to get better than OOTB regarding gamut and saturations tracking. You can also download the profile I linked to in the first post, that will save you a step. You still have to import it and calibrate to it (as a last step in the autocal process).

That's assuming you've confirmed your Spyder was reasonably accurate for both greyscale and gamut, I remember you posted some RGB chart but I suggested you checked gamut too, as this is where they tend to be off when they are.

Try to follow the whole recap, exactly, and then ask any question in the autocal thread.
Thank Manni, I'm looking a little closer at the meter, it seemed ok for greyscale. I'll run through this process and report back in the calibration thread. The OOTB gamut and saturation tracking is quite impressive especially compare to some of the prior years. I still miss that real time 12 point gamma control though..

Kevin - wait till you see the Martian - wow does this movie look good. Definitely getting the 3D BD as soon as it's released. The 2D HD stream was impressive to show off the projector.

Last edited by zombie10k; 12-27-2015 at 08:58 PM.
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post #13026 of 19418 Old 12-27-2015, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
it's not necessary if you are calibrating from the screen. let us know how you make out with the gamma.

And I guess you just live with the bias of your screen material if autocaling from the lens and don't have a code?

I asked this question before on the owners thread but couldn't you at least try to determine which of the three generic codes might work (why JVC didn't add another three for biasing each primary up or down is beyond me), by taking say a 75/25 reading of the lens after your autocal, then turn the meter around to your screen, open the lens filter and take the readings again to mathematically figure out each primaries deficiencies against the autocal numbers? OR… is that just a foolish thought because your'e not dealing apples to apples??


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post #13027 of 19418 Old 12-27-2015, 09:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Thank Manni, I'm looking a little closer at the meter, it seemed ok for greyscale. I'll run through this process and report back in the calibration thread. The OOTB gamut and saturation tracking is quite impressive especially compare to some of the prior years. I still miss that real time 12 point gamma control though..

Kevin - wait till you see the Martian - wow does this movie look good. Definitely getting the 3D BD as soon as it's released. The 2D HD stream was impressive to show off the projector.

Damn YOU man… how the hell did you get the Martian already; is it available to stream rent/buy early (or did Cpt Torrent deliver you a gift)?? We took the whole family out today to see Star Wars in 3D IMAX… Holy Moly Batman… all the chatter is not unwarranted on this movie…. outstanding!!

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post #13028 of 19418 Old 12-27-2015, 09:24 PM - Thread Starter
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kevin good question on the autocal, Manni may have some good input here. Since the HP does have some shift, I would just touch up the autocal using the internal controls and the ID3 facing the screen.

The Martian was available from several HD streaming sources since last Tuesday. I probably should have waited until the 3D BD comes out but really wanted to see this movie as I missed it in the theater. Ridley Scott has redeemed himself a bit after Prometheus.

http://hd-report.com/2015/12/21/ridl...to-digital-hd/

I did like Star Wars but wow is there is a lot of criticism out there from some of the superfans. It's really hard to believe that *** ***** ** ****...
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post #13029 of 19418 Old 12-27-2015, 09:45 PM - Thread Starter
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this weekend I watched a bluray I've had for years but never had a chance to check out. Anyone remember Forbidden Planet (1956) with Leslie Neilsen?

for some strange reason, I now want a 7 foot tall Robby in my HT.

http://www.hammacher.com/Product/10921



It's only $32,000.
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post #13030 of 19418 Old 12-27-2015, 09:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knd View Post
I tried this yesterday with my Lumagen 2143 and didn't see any change but I only increased 0 IRE by 0.2.
On my RS 500 l'm having trouble resolving 17-18 or 19. I tried enhanced but raised the black floor a lot and also had big numbers for contrast and brightness, so I stayed with standard with brightness @ 0.
But what did work in some content (as opposed to the test pattern (as I didn't check this)) was the dark level. We were watching Space Cowboys last night primarily for the space scenes (really spectacular even for an older movie). One area that I look at for black crushing (and this may not even be black crush - just my pet peeve) is when someone is wearing a dark suit I check to see if I can discern the lapels. If not I feel like blacks are being crushed. Anyway there was a scene in Space Cowboys where I thought I should be able to see the lapels on a suit and couldn't, so I paused the scene and turned up the dark level, and sure enough the outline of the lapels appeared. My son also agreed with me, so I now have it set to +7. I need to watch more to confirm this though.
As opposed to raising the dark level to +7 did you just try to raise the brightness instead? I tried both but just raised the brightness at the end to about 28 with dark level left at 0. This allowed me to see the 18 and 19 bars and very little 17 too where as before raising the brightness I could not even see 19. Had Iris on manual with -7. This is on standard input level on JVC. I also had to decrease contrast by about 4 in order to remove clipping around 233 to 235.
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post #13031 of 19418 Old 12-27-2015, 09:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanbryan View Post
Ok, I set the oppo and the lumagen to output 4:4:4 and used standard in the JVC.

I noticed no significant difference. I can still just see 17.

Also, out of curiosity I looked at enhanced mode. In enhanced, I brought the brightness down as far it it can go (-50) and it could still resolve all the way down to around 14. Even if I set the gamma to its highest 2.6 I could not get it to only resolve 17 and above. It was resolving down to 15 (maybe 14?).
When using enhanced input mode on JVC did you try to decrease dark level to -7 and then use brightness for the rest?
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post #13032 of 19418 Old 12-27-2015, 09:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
this weekend I watched a bluray I've had for years but never had a chance to check out. Anyone remember Forbidden Planet (1956) with Leslie Neilsen?

for some strange reason, I now want a 7 foot tall Robby in my HT.

http://www.hammacher.com/Product/10921


It's only $32,000.
Wow and I thought for years I just had to have the Han Solo in carbonate replica for $12K was a tall order (I think I still want that someday right outside the theater room!).

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post #13033 of 19418 Old 12-27-2015, 10:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rak306 View Post
One more thing. For code 17, in an ideal room, you would get:

L=x^2.4, x=1/219, so
L = 2.4x10^-6, or 1/414,000.

Now this is beyond the JVC RS600's On/Off contrast ratio of 150,000:1, so shouldn't we expect code 17 to NOT be detectable anyway with the JVC?
No. The levels for levels above 16 should take the light for level 16 (the black floor) into account. This is also true of other things where errors should be rolled off, not hard clipped. For instance, if running a P3 source on a REC.709 projector it doesn't make sense to just clip things encoded above REC.709 primaries.

For contrast ratio, a 1k:1 on/off CR projector shouldn't just clip everything that is supposed to be 1/1000th of white. It should take that raised floor into account. BT.1886 does this to spread the error from the raised black floor out.

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post #13034 of 19418 Old 12-27-2015, 10:51 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post
It is going back. I'm hoping this is quite an outlier, but don't have enough data at this point to know where it lies on the distribution curve of units.

The convergence was about as perfect as I've seen for the center of the screen to my eyes, so I hate to give that up, but I think I would rather have poor convergence than uniformity of black that is this bad.

For those who have lights lighting up their screen such that the screen is visible when the projector is off this would be less of an issue.

--Darin
Darin this is not an outlier. I just took a pic of the same exact bright green corners on my RS500. I am very disappointed. If I werent on my mobile Id post the pic. I will post it next time Im on the laptop. I was taking contrast measurements vs my X500 when I noticed the crazy bright corners on the RS500. As you said in this thread and one other, the contrast is very good in the center, but im measuring over 10x brighter in those corners and neither my X500 or X70 have this problem. My rs400 did not have this problem. Im buying an Rs57 and being done with it
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post #13035 of 19418 Old 12-27-2015, 11:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Mozen View Post
As you said in this thread and one other, the contrast is very good in the center, but im measuring over 10x brighter in those corners ...
Now, that one sounds like an outlier. That is unfortunate. I've seen a few of these RS500/600s now, and with the iris open on manual the range I've seen has gone from about 2x to 4x for the worst corner versus the center, based on measuring some and eyeballing others compared to those.

Is your 10x iris open or iris closed?

At first I didn't realize that the gray rectangle I was seeing on black had a reasonable border, so have been measuring inside that border to make sure I am only measuring the image area. The cutoff for the image area vs the border can be seen by displaying an image just above black, like a 1% full gray field.

I am working on coming up with some real scenes that some of us can try and possibly post pictures. For instance, there is one in Star Wars 2 near the end of the asteroid chapter. I think this might be at the 1:10:17 mark, but it about 1 minute before the end of this chapter, so going to one chapter beyond the asteroid chapter and backing up one minute gets to a spot where the shot shows Obi-Wan Kenobi inside his ship and he is telling R4 that they are probably fine to leave now.

I figure we can standardize on certain things for taking pictures. For instance, zoomed to largest image, iris full open, no auto iris, and putting a piece of copy paper 11" from the projector (the same as the length of normal copy paper), then taking a picture from the projector side. Of course, we could change some things, but I think it would be good to get some shots with the same content and basically the same settings for different units.

--Darin
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post #13036 of 19418 Old 12-28-2015, 02:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Frank D View Post
As opposed to raising the dark level to +7 did you just try to raise the brightness instead? I tried both but just raised the brightness at the end to about 28 with dark level left at 0. This allowed me to see the 18 and 19 bars and very little 17 too where as before raising the brightness I could not even see 19. Had Iris on manual with -7. This is on standard input level on JVC. I also had to decrease contrast by about 4 in order to remove clipping around 233 to 235.
Sorry, I should have mentioned that I tried the brightness control first, but it didn't seem to work, so I left it at zero and tried the dark level control. This was in standard mode.
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post #13037 of 19418 Old 12-28-2015, 02:49 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
if DLP somehow gets a reboot down the road, I think they would have to go for at least 10K:1 native to compete.
Been there, done that - back in 2007! Sharp 20K

Hope to see better than 10K:1 in the future.
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post #13038 of 19418 Old 12-28-2015, 05:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sittler27 View Post
Anyone know if it's necessary to enter a screen code in if doing a full calibration with a colorimeter off the screen anyways?

If so, what code should I use for Dalite HD Progressive (JKP) 1.3 gain?
it's not necessary if you are calibrating from the screen. let us know how you make out with the gamma.
Your picture tone tip seems to have allegedly improved my gamma. It's not perfect but fairly flat.

The other issue was that u wasn't choosing gamma level with black compensation as the reference line in the HCFR software (I really should just splurge for CP).
So that contributed to why my previously posted gamma curve looked so high in the low end as well.

Ended up with:
Input level @ Std
Iris at -11 for 16:9; -8 for 2.35
Contrast @ -2
Brightness @ 3
Color temp @ Custom 1 with green offset @ -13 and green gain @ -2
Gamma @ 2.4 with Dark level @ +5 and Picture Tone @ 4

Currently at 75 hrs so this should tie me over for a while until JVC Autocal supports the Spyder 5 Pro.

I think my 1.3 gain screen may be pushing more light than some of your screens as the explanation why my settings may vary from yours. Even though it's a JKP screen I think at 1.28 measured gain I know it isn't entirely neutral.

Let me know what you think.
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post #13039 of 19418 Old 12-28-2015, 07:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post
Been there, done that - back in 2007! Sharp 20K

Hope to see better than 10K:1 in the future.
a little hard to believe... nearly 3x a DC4 Planar, double a Super Lumis. What kind of usable light output at those measurements on the S&V.

edit: looking closer - iris clamped down, barely 9 ft-L... wide open 1933:1, sounds a lot more like it for the typical DLP.

this example doesn't really count from my perspective. It has to have high brightness and much higher than typical DLP native contrast.
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post #13040 of 19418 Old 12-28-2015, 07:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sittler27 View Post
Your picture tone tip seems to have allegedly improved my gamma. It's not perfect but fairly flat.

The other issue was that u wasn't choosing gamma level with black compensation as the reference line in the HCFR software (I really should just splurge for CP).
So that contributed to why my previously posted gamma curve looked so high in the low end as well.

Ended up with:
Input level @ Std
Iris at -11 for 16:9; -8 for 2.35
Contrast @ -2
Brightness @ 3
Color temp @ Custom 1 with green offset @ -13 and green gain @ -2
Gamma @ 2.4 with Dark level @ +5 and Picture Tone @ 4

Currently at 75 hrs so this should tie me over for a while until JVC Autocal supports the Spyder 5 Pro.

I think my 1.3 gain screen may be pushing more light than some of your screens as the explanation why my settings may vary from yours. Even though it's a JKP screen I think at 1.28 measured gain I know it isn't entirely neutral.

Let me know what you think.
That looks good, I would just wait until the Spyder 5 Pro support is released. Also a good idea to consider CP, I found it easier to use than HCFR and Tom can calibrate your meter against a known, high end reference meter.
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post #13041 of 19418 Old 12-28-2015, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sittler27 View Post
Your picture tone tip seems to have allegedly improved my gamma. It's not perfect but fairly flat.

The other issue was that u wasn't choosing gamma level with black compensation as the reference line in the HCFR software (I really should just splurge for CP).
So that contributed to why my previously posted gamma curve looked so high in the low end as well.

Ended up with:
Input level @ Std
Iris at -11 for 16:9; -8 for 2.35
Contrast @ -2
Brightness @ 3
Color temp @ Custom 1 with green offset @ -13 and green gain @ -2
Gamma @ 2.4 with Dark level @ +5 and Picture Tone @ 4

Currently at 75 hrs so this should tie me over for a while until JVC Autocal supports the Spyder 5 Pro.

I think my 1.3 gain screen may be pushing more light than some of your screens as the explanation why my settings may vary from yours. Even though it's a JKP screen I think at 1.28 measured gain I know it isn't entirely neutral.

Let me know what you think.
That looks good, I would just wait until the Spyder 5 Pro support is released. Also a good idea to consider CP, I found it easier to use than HCFR and Tom can calibrate your meter against a known, high end reference meter.
It's a shame he can't calibrate the i1D3 I already own.

I don't know anyone with a reference meter to calibrate against.
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post #13042 of 19418 Old 12-28-2015, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Sittler27 View Post
It's a shame he can't calibrate the i1D3 I already own.

I don't know anyone with a reference meter to calibrate against.
Contact Chad B - he has a Jeti 1211. I'm not sure what part of the country you're in, but there might be a chance he'll be there at some point.
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post #13043 of 19418 Old 12-28-2015, 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post
No. The levels for levels above 16 should take the light for level 16 (the black floor) into account. This is also true of other things where errors should be rolled off, not hard clipped. For instance, if running a P3 source on a REC.709 projector it doesn't make sense to just clip things encoded above REC.709 primaries.

For contrast ratio, a 1k:1 on/off CR projector shouldn't just clip everything that is supposed to be 1/1000th of white. It should take that raised floor into account. BT.1886 does this to spread the error from the raised black floor out.

--Darin
Gotcha, (I misread the bt1886 equation, and thought it was max[V,b] ).

So let's take the case of an ideal RS600 with 150k:1 on/off contrast.

Here is the bt1886 equation:

L = a( max[V+b,0] )^2.4

where:

L = luminance,
a= gain or "contrast",
b = black level lift or "brightness"

^ means "raised to the power"

So for the RS600 in an ideal black room,

b= (1/150,000)^(1/2.4) = 0.00697,
V (for code 17) = (17-16)/(235-16) = 1/219 = 0.00457.
V+b = 0.01154,
(V+b)^2.4 = 0.000022 = 1/44767

And while this should be doable from the JVC, it might be very hard to see in anything but a black pit.

If you push the hide button on my RS600, (after dark adapting for 20min), you can see a very dim "slightly above black" screen, but it is not perfectly even. And a 20 second exposure reveals it is colored, and not the same color throughout the screen. Of course it looks black, devoid of color, because it is so dark, only the rods in my eye are picking it up.
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post #13044 of 19418 Old 12-28-2015, 11:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Sittler27 View Post
It's a shame he can't calibrate the i1D3 I already own.

I don't know anyone with a reference meter to calibrate against.
I would contact them, there is a good chance you can send your meter in and they will upgrade it to the 'pro' version with a reference calibration + the purchase of the CP license.
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post #13045 of 19418 Old 12-28-2015, 01:43 PM
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a little hard to believe... nearly 3x a DC4 Planar, double a Super Lumis. What kind of usable light output at those measurements on the S&V.

edit: looking closer - iris clamped down, barely 9 ft-L... wide open 1933:1, sounds a lot more like it for the typical DLP.

this example doesn't really count from my perspective. It has to have high brightness and much higher than typical DLP native contrast.
You were asking for native contrast. Sharp delivered.

It might work for someone with a tiny high-gain screen.

It's interesting that these ultra high contrast DLP projectors basically disappeared off the market. I think once DLP manufacturers conceded defeat to JVC in the contrast wars, they moved on to fight the brightness wars instead. Unfortunately, brightness and contrast are typically mutually exclusive. I wonder what they'll do now that JVC is also catching up on brightness and still killing them on contrast. Maybe move on to "motion wars" where their instant response time and high brightness could be used for CRT-like motion resolution if they implement some kind of strobed/BFI refresh method instead of sample-and-hold.
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post #13046 of 19418 Old 12-28-2015, 01:44 PM
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Does anyone know if JVC will ever introduce a 'Game Mode'? Has anyone heard that being discussed at any Expos?

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post #13047 of 19418 Old 12-28-2015, 01:48 PM
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Does anyone know if JVC will ever introduce a 'Game Mode'? Has anyone heard that being discussed at any Expos?
I asked the guy running their booth at the last CES. He knew exactly what I was talking about since he was also a gamer. Unfortunately, he told me to look at their simulation line because they had no plans to reduce lag on their home-theater projectors. If I go to CES this year, I'll be sure to ask again.
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post #13048 of 19418 Old 12-28-2015, 01:55 PM
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I asked the guy running their booth at the last CES. He knew exactly what I was talking about since he was also a gamer. Unfortunately, he told me to look at their simulation line because they had no plans to reduce lag on their home-theater projectors. If I go to CES this year, I'll be sure to ask again.
I wonder if something inherent to the technology JVC is using is limiting or inhibiting their ability to lower lag; maybe high lag is inherent to the technology itself and will require a lot of resources (time, manpower, money) to reduce. If it was a simple fix, I just can't fathom why they wouldn't implement that change.

Low lag and super zippy menus should be on their to-do list, IMO.

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post #13049 of 19418 Old 12-28-2015, 01:55 PM
 
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a little hard to believe... nearly 3x a DC4 Planar, double a Super Lumis. What kind of usable light output at those measurements on the S&V.

edit: looking closer - iris clamped down, barely 9 ft-L... wide open 1933:1, sounds a lot more like it for the typical DLP.

this example doesn't really count from my perspective. It has to have high brightness and much higher than typical DLP native contrast.
I've had 3 different Z20K units here and in it's iris fully open mode it doesn't look too spectacular, but with it closed on a modest sized high power screen it looks wonderful. Sharp, very high in contrast and plenty of image depth. Though, even with the latest firmware, they never truly added proper 24p support. All they did was allow to send a 24p signal and have it do 3:2 pulldown. So in panning shots you could still see a little judder here and there. That was the one flaw with this unit. I think they couldn't add in proper support for it because the video processing solution was done in-house by Sharp and it probably didn't have the proper on-board hardware to retrofit proper 2:2 pulldown of 24p sources.
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post #13050 of 19418 Old 12-28-2015, 02:10 PM
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JVC 3D glasses on/off button

This is for those like me, who are new to JVC, and couldn't figure out which 3D glasses would work with the JVC - so they just bought the expensive JVC version. (I got mixed messages on polarization- most said horizontal, one said vertical, some said it depended on if your screen preserved polarization. All fine and good, but no manufacturer specifies what polarization they use).

Two days previous, I had charged the glasses. So I put in a 3D disk in my Oppo 103, and without the glasses, I could see a double image as expected. But with the glasses, it looked the same - no 3D.

I read the JVC projector manual (the glasses don't come with a manual), and all it said was turn on the glasses. Of course, I couldn't find the on/off switch. After quite a while I spotted it as a small flush rectangular push-button on the inside right hand stem, just over the charging port.

Now it seams, (again, no instructions), if you push it, a red light temporarily goes on, blinks, then goes off. It appears to take about 3-5 seconds before it starts working.

So I see the red light go off, and since it isn't working (I didn't wait the 3-5 sec), I'm thinking, the battery mush have discharged. So I push the button again, and the red light goes on, blinks, then goes off. I look through the glasses and still no 3d. So I try my second pair, same thing. Now I think, maybe the transmitter is bad, or not plugged in. The transmitter was fine.

What I believe was happening was once I turned the glasses on, I did not wait long enough for them to work. I then hit the on/off button again, and turned the glasses off.

I do not see any indication on the glasses that they are On or Off other than they work or don't work when looking at the 3D screen. Perhaps there is one, but not that I can tell. To me, this means you should always turn off the glasses while looking at a 3d image, so you can be sure they are off.
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