Projector Mini-Shootout Thread - Page 472 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #14131 of 19442 Old 03-16-2016, 06:10 AM
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To continue the high ANSI vs. Sequential contrast debate from last week, I found this old post from Darin comparing a Marantz VP11S2 to a JVC RS20:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post15362924

I remember we agreed here that it was difficult to find a movie scene that shows a clear ANSI contrast advantage. Yet what is happening in the letterbox bars is also happening in the rest of the image. This means that blacks will be objectively worse in many scenes on a JVC vs high-end DLP. When running side-by-side, I mostly notice this in large black areas next to bright areas - stuff like close-ups of black hair next to bright faces or bright backgrounds like skies.

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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post
I should also mention that I measured this 11S2 at close to 1000:1 ANSI CR in high contrast mode (the irises shut down). There was a reasonably large margin of error with my readings, but it does seem to be way up there for ANSI CR. There has been some discussion of intra-image CR with different kinds of images and I checked out some different ones in the HD DVD of Chronicles of Riddick. I looked at the 2.35:1 bars above the image both while looking at the image too and with a board to block the image part so I couldn't see it and could only see the bars and above.

The following screen shots aren't meant to show color differences, resolution differences, or anything like that. Just the kinds of images where each ends up with black in the bars or images that is darker than the other. For these images the RS20 is on the left and the 11S2 on the right.
Darin, you had the long-throw lens version of the 11S2 correct? Do you recall what that lens was able to deliver in terms of on/off contrast? Marantz claimed 15,000:1 in the specs, but I've seen reviews with numbers all over the map for the highest-contrast Iris1 mode - anything from 5000:1 to 12000:1. Also mixed readings for lumens in that mode - some say 200 but others measured closer to 400.
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post #14132 of 19442 Old 03-16-2016, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post
Darin, you had the long-throw lens version of the 11S2 correct?
Yes.
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Do you recall what that lens was able to deliver in terms of on/off contrast?
I don't recall anything from that timeframe delivering more than maybe 8k:1 even with both irises closed down. For those pictures I had there I see that I said I had to have the iris open for the 11S2 and for that I'm guessing maybe 4k:1, but I don't recall for sure. Greg Rogers review of at projector may have values for the normal lens.

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post #14133 of 19442 Old 03-16-2016, 11:24 AM
 
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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post
Yes.
I don't recall anything from that timeframe delivering more than maybe 8k:1 even with both irises closed down. For those pictures I had there I see that I said I had to have the iris open for the 11S2 and for that I'm guessing maybe 4k:1, but I don't recall for sure. Greg Rogers review of at projector may have values for the normal lens.

--Darin
His review for the 11S2 calls for ~12000:1 contrast which is incorrect for this projector. I still have his review in WSR in a pile of magazines. I think what he did on accident was compare the iris open peak white level with the iris closed black level. It should have been closer to 4000-5000:1 with the 11S2. As far as contrast goes with the 11S2 and the 15S1 the lens option shouldn't matter much as Marantz had both lens options coated the same, where as only the long throw lens for the 11S1 had the high contrast coatings on them.
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post #14134 of 19442 Old 03-16-2016, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
As far as contrast goes with the 11S2 and the 15S1 the lens option shouldn't matter much as Marantz had both lens options coated the same, where as only the long throw lens for the 11S1 had the high contrast coatings on them.
Thanks. Now that you mention that I don't recall whether it was the 11S1 or 11S2 where I had the long throw lens, just that it was the one that I got 1000:1 ANSI CR with.

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post #14135 of 19442 Old 03-16-2016, 04:47 PM
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I wonder if there was any performance difference (assuming both had the updated high ANSI contrast coating) between the short and long throw lenses? For example, if you setup the short-throw lens at longest throw and the long-throw lens at maximum zoom? For certain specific screen distances where their throws almost overlap, they would both produce the same size image but I wonder if one had any advantage over the other. I've tested the long-throw version but have not seen the short-throw model that most people seem to be reviewing.

@Kris Deering reviewed the long-throw model here and got rather low contrast numbers from it. The lumens also seem low if you do the math to convert back from fL. Makes me wonder if this lens was worse than the short-throw one.
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post #14136 of 19442 Old 03-16-2016, 05:16 PM
 
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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post
Thanks. Now that you mention that I don't recall whether it was the 11S1 or 11S2 where I had the long throw lens, just that it was the one that I got 1000:1 ANSI CR with.

--Darin
So their claim wasn't all fluff? You actually measured their claim of 1000:1 ANSI?
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post #14137 of 19442 Old 03-16-2016, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
So their claim wasn't all fluff? You actually measured their claim of 1000:1 ANSI?
My memory and my old post that somebody linked to say I did, but as I said there, I had a fairly high margin of error. I don't recall what meter I had back then, but might have had to do it with a CA-813 close to the lens.

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post #14138 of 19442 Old 03-16-2016, 07:14 PM
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I measured the 11s2 (with long-throw lens) using a Spyder4 close to the lens pointed at the projector. Since JVC uses this same sensor and method to autocal their gamma, I figure it must be accurate enough for this purpose. I got ~800:1 ANSI. With a velvet covered screen and/or checkerboard mask, who knows - maybe 1000:1 is possible. Looking at the ANSI pattern, the black squares were much closer to the black screen frame than I have ever seen on a projector. But it was super dim. Less than 200 lumens in the maximum contrast iris modes. Even on a HP, that is unusable unless you have a flatpanel size screen.
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post #14139 of 19442 Old 03-17-2016, 08:53 AM
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This week-end I will have a Sony VW665ES in my room to check against my JVC RS500.

After Widescreen Review and Projector Review very positive review I am very curious to look at that one.
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post #14140 of 19442 Old 03-17-2016, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by RickAVManiac View Post
This week-end I will have a Sony VW665ES in my room to check against my JVC RS500.

After Widescreen Review and Projector Review very positive review I am very curious to look at that one.

Looking forward to your observations!

Dave
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post #14141 of 19442 Old 03-17-2016, 02:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by RickAVManiac View Post
This week-end I will have a Sony VW665ES in my room to check against my JVC RS500.

After Widescreen Review and Projector Review very positive review I am very curious to look at that one.
Rick, hi, I don't recall, is your roomed relatively blacked out? Please keep us posted on your comparisons. thx!
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post #14142 of 19442 Old 03-17-2016, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickAVManiac View Post
This week-end I will have a Sony VW665ES in my room to check against my JVC RS500.

After Widescreen Review and Projector Review very positive review I am very curious to look at that one.
Rick, hi, I don't recall, is your roomed relatively blacked out? Please keep us posted on your comparisons. thx!
Yes room full blacked out.
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post #14143 of 19442 Old 03-18-2016, 03:11 AM
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I wonder what the price will be for one can of this spray...
I was curious and contacted the company. Sadly, not for sale to the general public.

Why is there NO perfect equipment, only compromises?
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post #14144 of 19442 Old 03-18-2016, 05:58 PM
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I have spent couples hours with the Sony VW665ES.

After a warm-up period I take some measurement and did get 14035:1 on off contrast ratio.

Measure with a CA813, one feet from the lens, in Reference picture mode, low lamp, iris fully open and dynamic iris off.

Pretty good for a Sony
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post #14145 of 19442 Old 03-19-2016, 01:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post
Agreed. Very few rooms are capable of showing full ANSI contrast capability of any projector at screen. But without testing in such a room, you can't really claim that high ANSI contrast has no noticeable effect on most scenes. I don't know the answer and don't have a room to conduct this test myself.
Maybe very few rooms in a doctor's mansion home theater setup, but in AVS, come on, not every last bit of ANSI but enough of it!
Bunches of us have rooms so dark with so little reflection that you could break your neck if you don't watch where you are going.

Of course it helps having higher ANSI, but Native On/Off helps so many more scenes than higher ANSI, that's why... This isn't subjective, anyone that has tested this knows for certain.

My only problem with this argument is that people still think this is a subjective argument, it might be with 2 high contrast projectors of say 50,000:1 vs. 30,000:1 where the 30,000:1 has higher ANSI (but even then I doubt it). However, given most of the PJ's we are comparing against that have higher ANSI have 1/10th the native on/off contrast, it makes the entire discussion a nullified argument.

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post #14146 of 19442 Old 03-19-2016, 05:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickAVManiac View Post
I have spent couples hours with the Sony VW665ES.

After a warm-up period I take some measurement and did get 14035:1 on off contrast ratio.

Measure with a CA813, one feet from the lens, in Reference picture mode, low lamp, iris fully open and dynamic iris off.

Pretty good for a Sony
For the record my last VW1100 measure 6700:1 and my JVC RS500 69000:1

I will have to do a lot more test but first impression is maybe the Sony 665 look overall better than my VW1100.

I install the last Sony firmware and they do have change the dynamic iris for the better. I did not have the time to watch a lot of scene but one of my favorite scene for dynamic iris is Harry Potter 7 ep. 2 when Voldemort is with is army at the top of the hill just before the battle start. With my VW1100 the iris this scene is just not right with a lot of pumping around. With the VW665 dynamic iris set to "full", at the start of the scene you do see the pumping adjustment but after that the image is very stable and the picture do look very good. I try to put the dynamic iris set to "limited" and did the same thing but a less agressive so that the initial pumping is barely noticeable at all.

Also, not sure of this one but the dynamic iris on "limited" do not limit the brightness it impact only the black. On my VW1100 when on limited the projector was limited in brightness also. Can someone with a VW1100 or a good memory can confirm this?
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post #14147 of 19442 Old 03-19-2016, 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by RickAVManiac View Post
For the record my last VW1100 measure 6700:1 and my JVC RS500 69000:1

I will have to do a lot more test but first impression is maybe the Sony 665 look overall better than my VW1100.

I install the last Sony firmware and they do have change the dynamic iris for the better. I did not have the time to watch a lot of scene but one of my favorite scene for dynamic iris is Harry Potter 7 ep. 2 when Voldemort is with is army at the top of the hill just before the battle start. With my VW1100 the iris this scene is just not right with a lot of pumping around. With the VW665 dynamic iris set to "full", at the start of the scene you do see the pumping adjustment but after that the image is very stable and the picture do look very good. I try to put the dynamic iris set to "limited" and did the same thing but a less agressive so that the initial pumping is barely noticeable at all.

Also, not sure of this one but the dynamic iris on "limited" do not limit the brightness it impact only the black. On my VW1100 when on limited the projector was limited in brightness also. Can someone with a VW1100 or a good memory can confirm this?

On my VW1000 in Limited iris, I have limited light output, so it's the same as on VW1100.
On VW520/665 you can in Limited adjust max light in 0-100 steps.


Your observations on the VW 665 looks like my own observations. I have not found anything yet that makes VW1000 better than VW520, other than the lens, but here you must stand with your nose in the screen, and look at test patterns.


My VW1000 measures just 2100:1, 3 years and 1600 hours
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post #14148 of 19442 Old 03-19-2016, 06:32 AM
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On my VW1000 in Limited iris, I have limited light output, so it's the same as on VW1100.
On VW520/665 you can in Limited adjust max light in 0-100 steps.


Your observations on the VW 665 looks like my own observations. I have not found anything yet that makes VW1000 better than VW520, other than the lens, but here you must stand with your nose in the screen, and look at test patterns.


My VW1000 measures just 2100:1, 3 years and 1600 hours
I saw a 665 in at my local store. It is definitely a solid next generation unit. I think Sony definitely worked on some things with the units since the implementation on the VW-1100.
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post #14149 of 19442 Old 03-19-2016, 06:35 AM
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On my VW1000 in Limited iris, I have limited light output, so it's the same as on VW1100.
On VW520/665 you can in Limited adjust max light in 0-100 steps.


Your observations on the VW 665 looks like my own observations. I have not found anything yet that makes VW1000 better than VW520, other than the lens, but here you must stand with your nose in the screen, and look at test patterns.


My VW1000 measures just 2100:1, 3 years and 1600 hours
Thanks for the clarification. That's what I thought and that's what I confirm on my VW665. So it's a plus for the new Sony. It's now possible to use the dynamic iris in a "limited" mode without limiting the brightness. It's good for people who like the less noticeable dynamic iris as possible but do appreciate the little help it give with black floor.
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post #14150 of 19442 Old 03-19-2016, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
Maybe very few rooms in a doctor's mansion home theater setup, but in AVS, come on, not every last bit of ANSI but enough of it!
Bunches of us have rooms so dark with so little reflection that you could break your neck if you don't watch where you are going.

Of course it helps having higher ANSI, but Native On/Off helps so many more scenes than higher ANSI, that's why... This isn't subjective, anyone that has tested this knows for certain.

My only problem with this argument is that people still think this is a subjective argument, it might be with 2 high contrast projectors of say 50,000:1 vs. 30,000:1 where the 30,000:1 has higher ANSI (but even then I doubt it). However, given most of the PJ's we are comparing against that have higher ANSI have 1/10th the native on/off contrast, it makes the entire discussion a nullified argument.
Have you missed the links where Darin admits that letterbox bars were darker on a 3000:1 on/off (1000:1 ANSI, iris open) DLP vs. a 50000:1 JVC on many scenes? The same thing is happening in the rest of the image and causes visible washout of black areas. It's also visible in ANSI checkerboards where the black squares are much closer to the frame color. If you watch dark horror/sci-fi exclusively, sure the JVC may be your best choice. But if you watch animation, sports, cable, video games, etc. more often than not, the DLP would probably provide higher real-world contrast.

At one point in time I had both setup split screen here, JVC RS40 vs. Marantz vp11s2 and found it difficult to declare a clear winner on my mixed content. In the end, I went with the JVC because it had more setup flexibility (at least for the brief hours before the lamp died). After remeasuring my room, I saw that it was possible to achieve ~800 ANSI contrast near lens and ~350 at screen. I'm still interested in seeing anyone measure significantly higher at screen but have not seen the evidence (please post links). That means neither projector was likely delivering their full ANSI contrast potential. Maybe no real room can do this. I just don't know. But for me, even without such a theoretical perfect room, I still saw the DLP beat the JVC on a lot of content. Maybe I'll do this shootout again soon.
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post #14151 of 19442 Old 03-19-2016, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post
Have you missed the links where Darin admits that letterbox bars were darker on a 3000:1 on/off (1000:1 ANSI, iris open) DLP vs. a 50000:1 JVC on many scenes? The same thing is happening in the rest of the image and causes visible washout of black areas. It's also visible in ANSI checkerboards where the black squares are much closer to the frame color. If you watch dark horror/sci-fi exclusively, sure the JVC may be your best choice. But if you watch animation, sports, cable, video games, etc. more often than not, the DLP would probably provide higher real-world contrast.

At one point in time I had both setup split screen here, JVC RS40 vs. Marantz vp11s2 and found it difficult to declare a clear winner on my mixed content. In the end, I went with the JVC because it had more setup flexibility (at least for the brief hours before the lamp died). After remeasuring my room, I saw that it was possible to achieve ~800 ANSI contrast near lens and ~350 at screen. I'm still interested in seeing anyone measure significantly higher at screen but have not seen the evidence (please post links). That means neither projector was likely delivering their full ANSI contrast potential. Maybe no real room can do this. I just don't know. But for me, even without such a theoretical perfect room, I still saw the DLP beat the JVC on a lot of content. Maybe I'll do this shootout again soon.
I have as blacked out a room as I can manage and sometimes wonder how close it comes to achieving the full ANSI contrast of a projector. When I've pulled all the curtains, all walls are covered with back velvet (darkest you can get), ceiling is effectively about 10 feet of black velvet out from the screen, the last bit of ceiling being dark brown felt. Floor is black velvet out past 6 feet, to the sofa, which is dark brown material. I have a feeling that even if one could set up a room that measures higher in ANSI, this room has probably reached close to the visual limits (i.e. a more perfect room could measure better, but diminishing returns in perceptible differences would have set in). But I don't now for sure.

But it sure was amazing to continually add room treatment to see the effects. Now, no more wash out in any scenes in terms of reflections. Contrast is far more consistent and rich, bright scenes look quite contrasty. (Using JVC projectors, currently the RS600).
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post #14152 of 19442 Old 03-19-2016, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post
Have you missed the links where Darin admits that letterbox bars were darker on a 3000:1 on/off (1000:1 ANSI, iris open) DLP vs. a 50000:1 JVC on many scenes? The same thing is happening in the rest of the image and causes visible washout of black areas.
Sounds like you are talking about a split screen comparison I mentioned. This doesn't mean it ends up being nearly as visible when a person is watching one projector at a time, although that applies to lots of image characteristics like the black floor also.

In general the bars are bigger and easier to spot differences in than in smaller black areas within the image area. Masking can make it harder to see the differences also.

I recall one scene in one of the James Bond movies from a few years ago in a desert where a guy had a black suit on and this black suit held better with my Planar than JVC, but in general I had to work much harder to find scenes where I could see advantages to the ANSI CR beyond a point. Even then I doubt I did enough testing to make 100% sure that what I was seeing was ANSI CR differences, although it likely was. It definitely wasn't that kind of difference that would pull me out of a movie like on/off CR between those 2 projectors was more likely to.

Also, when we actually tried doing some of this testing where a viewer didn't know whether they ANSI CR was low or not the subject failed pretty badly at being able to see differences. I would put a screen up behind them that would lower the ANSI CR off the screen and they weren't able to tell me whether the ANSI CR was higher or lower. We only tested some scenes and with more material may have found things where it would be easy to tell.

By using one projector (a Sharp DLP) and lowering ANSI CR by adding reflections behind the viewer we were keeping many parameters other than ANSI CR constant. That is hard to do when comparing to different technologies.

I know you've said you can see the differences on the ANSI CR checkerboard, but it would be interesting if you tried the same kind of thing with a single projector and just adding white surfaces behind you. Could you quickly tell when the system ANSI CR was higher or lower on 2.35:1 content without screen masking so you could watch the black bars? With screen masking so you couldn't focus on the bars?

--Darin

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post #14153 of 19442 Old 03-19-2016, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post
I know you've said you can see the differences on the ANSI CR checkerboard, but it would be interesting if you tried the same kind of thing with a single projector and just adding white surfaces behind you. Could you quickly tell when the system ANSI CR was higher or lower on 2.35:1 content without screen masking so you could watch the black bars? With screen masking so you couldn't focus on the bars?

--Darin
As you well know, adding reflections to a room is not the same as lowering ANSI contrast within the projector itself. One is global, the other is localized. A low contrast projector will washout dark content near bright content faster than a high ANSI contrast model.

As long as I have a frame of reference for true black (the screen border), I had no problem telling which projector had darker black bars or squares on the ANSI pattern. I think that's because the difference in ANSI contrast was more than 2x. Smaller differences would probably be difficult to see. Similar to your experience, it's most evident on black suits in bright outdoor scenes and things like black hair where you could make out highlights on the DLP that were masked on the JVC. It's true that it's harder to pinpoint the difference when the black areas are smaller - in those cases it's mostly perceived as a slight veil of fog and loss of sharpness over the whole image. Spotting poor on/off in very dark scenes is much easier to see.

Rather than argue subjective opinions, I found the attached numbers useful because they show a budget $1K DLP can hold its own until you reach very low APL. A higher end DLP like the Sharp 20K or Marantz 11s2 could probably go much lower on such a study. Obviously it would still lose out due to lower on/off once you hit below 5%. Keep in mind they measured average % white of 8% across a wide range of 53 movies.

In case anyone missed it, they finally ran the tests on a JVC:
http://projectiondream.com/en/jvc-dl...iew-projector/
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post #14154 of 19442 Old 03-20-2016, 03:31 AM
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As you well know, adding reflections to a room is not the same as lowering ANSI contrast within the projector itself. One is global, the other is localized.
No, I think you are making a bad assumption. Could be localized or not. Just because one cause of low ANSI CR is very localized doesn't mean all would be.

No testing is going to be perfect, but seems like you want to change multiple factors besides ANSI CR, since that is what happens when you use two different types of projectors that vary in ways other than ANSI CR. You could try to change only that one parameter, but do it in a localized way if you want.

Did you even make sure that the 2 projectors had the same step sizes for the first 10 steps or so above black? If not, then you weren't only looking at different ANSI CRs for your shadow detail report. Results could of course be the same if you did hold all variables constant while only changing one parameter, but changing multiple parameters does reduce confidence for cause and effect. That is a major reason I essentially only changed one parameter - ANSI CR.

--Darin

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post #14155 of 19442 Old 03-20-2016, 04:04 AM
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This talk about ANSI contrast and On/Off contrast reminds me of a dog chasing it's tail.
Whether it's a black tail or a grey tail or even a white tail makes no difference, it's still chasing it's tail.
Though it can be entertaining to watch....for a little while anyway!
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post #14156 of 19442 Old 03-20-2016, 07:07 AM
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I really like the way the projection dream group does their measures. I wish I had some of those patterns for testing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post
As you well know, adding reflections to a room is not the same as lowering ANSI contrast within the projector itself. One is global, the other is localized. A low contrast projector will washout dark content near bright content faster than a high ANSI contrast model.

As long as I have a frame of reference for true black (the screen border), I had no problem telling which projector had darker black bars or squares on the ANSI pattern. I think that's because the difference in ANSI contrast was more than 2x. Smaller differences would probably be difficult to see. Similar to your experience, it's most evident on black suits in bright outdoor scenes and things like black hair where you could make out highlights on the DLP that were masked on the JVC. It's true that it's harder to pinpoint the difference when the black areas are smaller - in those cases it's mostly perceived as a slight veil of fog and loss of sharpness over the whole image. Spotting poor on/off in very dark scenes is much easier to see.

Rather than argue subjective opinions, I found the attached numbers useful because they show a budget $1K DLP can hold its own until you reach very low APL. A higher end DLP like the Sharp 20K or Marantz 11s2 could probably go much lower on such a study. Obviously it would still lose out due to lower on/off once you hit below 5%. Keep in mind they measured average % white of 8% across a wide range of 53 movies.

In case anyone missed it, they finally ran the tests on a JVC:
http://projectiondream.com/en/jvc-dl...iew-projector/

Last edited by 12GAGE; 03-20-2016 at 07:15 AM.
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post #14157 of 19442 Old 03-20-2016, 07:26 AM
 
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because they show a budget $1K DLP can hold its own until you reach very low APL. A higher end DLP like the Sharp 20K or Marantz 11s2 could probably go much lower on such a study. Obviously it would still lose out due to lower on/off once you hit below 5%. Keep in mind they measured average % white of 8% across a wide range of 53 movies.
The numbers say one thing and your eyes say another. I've had all the units you've mentioned here (Sharp 20K, several 1080p Marantz units, Planar PD8150, several 3-chip DLPs) plus many more here and I just don't agree with your sentiment. They cannot go toe to toe with a JVC, even in mixed APL level content, most of the time, the JVC looks better to the eye. Our eyes work completely different than these meters. The one factor you're not taking into consideration is brightness. The JVCs are considerably brighter than these .95" DLP units. That alone makes contrast appear to be better than a meter would tell you. You could brightness match them but then the numbers in that review are off the table as native contrast goes up 2-3x even higher and then the difference in lower and extremely low APL content goes WAY up in favor of a JVC. And as the APL Level Study thread will show, the majority of content in movies is lower APL content, below 20% average APL aka content that would favor a JVC. Trust me when I say that I'd prefer to keep a 3-chip DLP unit here as I actually prefer a DLP image over a JVCs. But the issue is that mid-low APL content happens a lot more than your posts are leading on and that's why I think the JVC still has the more well rounded image because it can look better in the majority of content that's displayed.

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post #14158 of 19442 Old 03-20-2016, 07:59 AM - Thread Starter
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I recently fired up the DC4 Planar after finishing the black out project. The lack of good native becomes apparent very quickly and is more distracting than any advantage it could have had in higher APL scenes.

The feelings weren't much different before giving the VW1100 a final look before it moved onto it's new home. High ANSI, decent native (better than the Planar). It's just not convincing in lower APL scenes in a velvet room despite what those chart might otherwise indicate.

definitely a good conversation but I don't see an end or final conclusion. I think we all want high ANSI and high native but for now, with the choices we currently have, the JVC works better for the kind of content I like to watch.
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post #14159 of 19442 Old 03-20-2016, 08:30 AM
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I recently fired up the DC4 Planar after finishing the black out project. The lack of good native becomes apparent very quickly and is more distracting than any advantage it could have had in higher APL scenes.
It sure is disappointing how short a distance we've come for on/off CR for DLP in the last decade. I recall that before I wrote my article about CR in 2006 I had had a conversation with somebody from a company that made a DLP projector with low thousands to 1 on/off CR and about the highest ANSI CR we could get. This person told me that the area they wanted to see improvements was ANSI CR, because they cared most about mixed images. I recall trying to explain how that was wrong, but wasn't sure if it got through. That conversation is one of the reasons I included the following in the article:

http://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_13...06-part-5.html
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Future Improvements

Now that I've discussed the different contrast ratios quite a bit, I want to go through an example using the contrast calculator at http://home1.gte.net/res18h39/contrast.htm in relation to the DLP class of projectors, where major investments are continuing to be made toward future improvements. At this time it is not uncommon for good home theater DLPs to be able to achieve 4000:1 On/Off CR and 500:1 ANSI CR. A person working on this class of projectors, or customers, could ask themselves where they would like to see CR improvements if they had to choose between improvements to On/Off CR or to ANSI CR. It would be easy to say ANSI CR if a person is thinking about mixed scenes, but On/Off CR can be a larger limiter of simultaneous CR in dark mixed scenes.

I am going to start with those values of 4000:1 and 500:1 for projector A in that calculator, along with changing the gamma to 2.22. In this case, I am going to assume the darkest of rooms (or a great screen for reducing the effect of reflections) and use 0.001 for the room gain, which will give more weight to ANSI CR than a higher value for room gain would. This results in the following checkerboard CRs:

IRE 100, 50, 20, 10, 5
CR 400:1, 298:1, 105:1, 34:1, 11:1

From this, the simultaneous CR is still very good with the 50%stim/0%stim checkerboard and gets weaker as the level for the brighter rectangles goes down. I will now check the estimates for those same CRs if the ANSI CR were improved 8x all the way up to matching the On/Off CR (which would imply almost no extra washout effect from bright parts of the images to dimmer parts). For projector B, I enter the same numbers as projector A, except for 4000:1 for the ANSI CR. This results in the following checkerboard CRs:

IRE 100, 50, 20, 10, 5
CR 1334:1, 623:1, 128:1, 36:1, 12:1

We can see from these data that the simultaneous CRs that were already very good went up, but there was very little improvement to the simultaneous CRs where the most weakness was found. Now instead of improving the ANSI CR, let's leave it at 500:1 and improve the On/Off CR by the same 8x to 32,000:1. Plugging this in for projector B results in:

IRE 100, 50, 20, 10, 5
CR 400:1, 383:1, 286:1, 147:1, 52:1

While this doesn't give the super high simultaneous CR for the 100 IRE case, it is still very high, and the most improvement by far has come at the weakest points. The checkerboard with 5 IRE (or 5%stim) for the brighter rectangles had the CR go up to over 4x that from the 4000:1 On/Off CR, 500:1 ANSI CR and the 4000:1 On/Off CR, 4000:1 ANSI CR cases. A person could plug in 4000/4000 for projector A and 32000/500 for projector B and be able to look at any of the levels in that contrast calculator side-by-side.

I believe that many fewer people would notice improvements to ANSI CRs that are already at 500:1 and above than to On/Off CRs that are in the 4000:1 range, and so I am looking for improvements to On/Off CR from future models of those projectors.
--Darin
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post #14160 of 19442 Old 03-20-2016, 08:57 AM - Thread Starter
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here's a completely different viewing experience. I was very skeptical but the kit was free with the S7 so why not check it out.

it's a surreal experience you have to experience at least once. It takes over the senses very quickly. One VR app, you are in a shark cage and sharks are attacking you. It's hard not to flinch even though you know it's not real.

The Netflix app is also impressive. We're in a cottage with a huge screen built into a brick wall. The lights in the room dim when you hit play on a movie.

Also the 360 videos are a heck of an experience. Flying over an erupting volcano in a helicopter.. looking down can induce vertigo.

the 360 VR games are also impressive.





What's not impressive - the weight and overall fatigue on the eyes. I could go about 20-30 mins before having to take a break. The weight is much better than the Sony HMZ-T1 torture device I have here somewhere.

I could not watch a whole feature length movie with this setup. Feather weight active shutter glasses are a day night difference for comfort during extended viewing.


This is remarkable technology.. especially stuffed into a cell phone. Until the size / weight of the equipment is reduced, I couldn't see investing in the PS4 VR, HTC or Rift setup on this upcoming round of VR. I am looking forward though to some beefy new graphics cards. Please send over a GeForce X80 Ti or 2 when they are released.
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