Projector Mini-Shootout Thread - Page 473 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #14161 of 19419 Old 03-20-2016, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
I recently fired up the DC4 Planar after finishing the black out project. The lack of good native becomes apparent very quickly and is more distracting than any advantage it could have had in higher APL scenes.
It sure is disappointing how short a distance we've come for on/off CR for DLP in the last decade. I recall that before I wrote my article about CR in 2006 I had had a conversation with somebody from a company that made a DLP projector with low thousands to 1 on/off CR and about the highest ANSI CR we could get. This person told me that the area they wanted to see improvements was ANSI CR, because they cared most about mixed images. I recall trying to explain how that was wrong, but wasn't sure if it got through. That conversation is one of the reasons I included the following in the article:

http://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_13...06-part-5.html
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Future Improvements

Now that I've discussed the different contrast ratios quite a bit, I want to go through an example using the contrast calculator at http://home1.gte.net/res18h39/contrast.htm in relation to the DLP class of projectors, where major investments are continuing to be made toward future improvements. At this time it is not uncommon for good home theater DLPs to be able to achieve 4000:1 On/Off CR and 500:1 ANSI CR. A person working on this class of projectors, or customers, could ask themselves where they would like to see CR improvements if they had to choose between improvements to On/Off CR or to ANSI CR. It would be easy to say ANSI CR if a person is thinking about mixed scenes, but On/Off CR can be a larger limiter of simultaneous CR in dark mixed scenes.

I am going to start with those values of 4000:1 and 500:1 for projector A in that calculator, along with changing the gamma to 2.22. In this case, I am going to assume the darkest of rooms (or a great screen for reducing the effect of reflections) and use 0.001 for the room gain, which will give more weight to ANSI CR than a higher value for room gain would. This results in the following checkerboard CRs:

IRE 100, 50, 20, 10, 5
CR 400:1, 298:1, 105:1, 34:1, 11:1

From this, the simultaneous CR is still very good with the 50%stim/0%stim checkerboard and gets weaker as the level for the brighter rectangles goes down. I will now check the estimates for those same CRs if the ANSI CR were improved 8x all the way up to matching the On/Off CR (which would imply almost no extra washout effect from bright parts of the images to dimmer parts). For projector B, I enter the same numbers as projector A, except for 4000:1 for the ANSI CR. This results in the following checkerboard CRs:

IRE 100, 50, 20, 10, 5
CR 1334:1, 623:1, 128:1, 36:1, 12:1

We can see from these data that the simultaneous CRs that were already very good went up, but there was very little improvement to the simultaneous CRs where the most weakness was found. Now instead of improving the ANSI CR, let's leave it at 500:1 and improve the On/Off CR by the same 8x to 32,000:1. Plugging this in for projector B results in:

IRE 100, 50, 20, 10, 5
CR 400:1, 383:1, 286:1, 147:1, 52:1

While this doesn't give the super high simultaneous CR for the 100 IRE case, it is still very high, and the most improvement by far has come at the weakest points. The checkerboard with 5 IRE (or 5%stim) for the brighter rectangles had the CR go up to over 4x that from the 4000:1 On/Off CR, 500:1 ANSI CR and the 4000:1 On/Off CR, 4000:1 ANSI CR cases. A person could plug in 4000/4000 for projector A and 32000/500 for projector B and be able to look at any of the levels in that contrast calculator side-by-side.

I believe that many fewer people would notice improvements to ANSI CRs that are already at 500:1 and above than to On/Off CRs that are in the 4000:1 range, and so I am looking for improvements to On/Off CR from future models of those projectors.
--Darin
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Last edited by darinp2; 03-20-2016 at 08:56 AM.
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post #14162 of 19419 Old 03-20-2016, 08:57 AM - Thread Starter
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here's a completely different viewing experience. I was very skeptical but the kit was free with the S7 so why not check it out.

it's a surreal experience you have to experience at least once. It takes over the senses very quickly. One VR app, you are in a shark cage and sharks are attacking you. It's hard not to flinch even though you know it's not real.

The Netflix app is also impressive. We're in a cottage with a huge screen built into a brick wall. The lights in the room dim when you hit play on a movie.

Also the 360 videos are a heck of an experience. Flying over an erupting volcano in a helicopter.. looking down can induce vertigo.

the 360 VR games are also impressive.





What's not impressive - the weight and overall fatigue on the eyes. I could go about 20-30 mins before having to take a break. The weight is much better than the Sony HMZ-T1 torture device I have here somewhere.

I could not watch a whole feature length movie with this setup. Feather weight active shutter glasses are a day night difference for comfort during extended viewing.


This is remarkable technology.. especially stuffed into a cell phone. Until the size / weight of the equipment is reduced, I couldn't see investing in the PS4 VR, HTC or Rift setup on this upcoming round of VR. I am looking forward though to some beefy new graphics cards. Please send over a GeForce X80 Ti or 2 when they are released.
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post #14163 of 19419 Old 03-20-2016, 10:43 AM
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I've had the Gear VR for a while for my S6. Same exact experience as you. Seems like the PC based units could be somewhat lighter since they wouldn't have a phone with a battery, case, etc... Just a screen and some electronics. Could be that's not the case with the 1st gen stuff, but eventually it should be at least somewhat better.

My eyes have gotten more used to it, similar to the 3D glasses. Initially my eyes were pretty fatigued by the glasses too, but seemed to improve with more usage.

I think VR has a real future, but I don't see it replacing our HT setups in any way. The Gear VR would be great on an airplane trip, assuming you don't mind looking like a total dork in public.
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post #14164 of 19419 Old 03-20-2016, 10:46 AM
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In regards to Darin's post, yea DLP has really stagnated. What bothers me also is there seems to be a growing divide in projectors. Lots of low end cheap stuff, quite a few very high end units, but not much in the middle (which is about all I can afford, like my Epson 5030UB). I'm becoming concerned that the "middle" projectors will go away eventually.
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post #14165 of 19419 Old 03-20-2016, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post
definitely a good conversation but I don't see an end or final conclusion. I think we all want high ANSI and high native but for now, with the choices we currently have, the JVC works better for the kind of content I like to watch.
Agreed. I'm opting out of discussing this any further since we're going in circles here. If people don't accept objective contrast measurements done on multiple calibrated projectors in the same room and method (which were not very far apart in brightness for the APL study - see the charts again!), then there's not much more to say. For me, the numbers match up with my personal experience with brightness matched and calibrated (gamma 2.2) projectors in my room. For me there was no doubt that a high-end DLP produced a better image in the random cable programming and video games I watched most. Maybe other factors besides ANSI contrast also played a role since DLP also had better sharpness (single chip), better motion, uniformity, input lag, etc. For me a JVC only made sense in a dual projector setup where I could fire it up for the occasional dark horror or scifi BD movie.

Here's to hoping DLP raises their game for native on/off contrast or JVC does the same for ANSI contrast in the future. Until then, we're stuck with much lower quality dark content or slightly lower quality bright content. Each owner needs to decide what they value more.
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post #14166 of 19419 Old 03-20-2016, 01:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post
Agreed. I'm opting out of discussing this any further since we're going in circles here. If people don't accept objective contrast measurements done on multiple calibrated projectors in the same room and method (which were not very far apart in brightness for the APL study - see the charts again!), then there's not much more to say. For me, the numbers match up with my personal experience with brightness matched and calibrated (gamma 2.2) projectors in my room. For me there was no doubt that a high-end DLP produced a better image in the random cable programming and video games I watched most. Maybe other factors besides ANSI contrast also played a role since DLP also had better sharpness (single chip), better motion, uniformity, input lag, etc. For me a JVC only made sense in a dual projector setup where I could fire it up for the occasional dark horror or scifi BD movie.

Here's to hoping DLP raises their game for native on/off contrast or JVC does the same for ANSI contrast in the future. Until then, we're stuck with much lower quality dark content or slightly lower quality bright content. Each owner needs to decide what they value more.
No one is saying the objective measurements are incorrect. It's that we aren't agreeing that these objective measurements mean that this is also what our eyes see. I'm telling you that there's no way a BenQ W2000 can hang with a JVC or LS10000. If you don't agree feel free to stop over with one and we'll put the two up on screen next to one another. I have a Marantz VP-15S1 here which has higher on/off and ANSI contrast than a W2000 and it cannot do well against the JVC with mid/semi-low APL content. I guess it's more to do with the measurements in those reviews not fully encapsulating what real content looks like. In those test patterns you're measuring peak white and black level mixed, but that's not how real content looks on screen.
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post #14167 of 19419 Old 03-21-2016, 10:07 AM
 
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
here's a completely different viewing experience. I was very skeptical but the kit was free with the S7 so why not check it out.

it's a surreal experience you have to experience at least once. It takes over the senses very quickly. One VR app, you are in a shark cage and sharks are attacking you. It's hard not to flinch even though you know it's not real.

The Netflix app is also impressive. We're in a cottage with a huge screen built into a brick wall. The lights in the room dim when you hit play on a movie.

Also the 360 videos are a heck of an experience. Flying over an erupting volcano in a helicopter.. looking down can induce vertigo.

the 360 VR games are also impressive.





What's not impressive - the weight and overall fatigue on the eyes. I could go about 20-30 mins before having to take a break. The weight is much better than the Sony HMZ-T1 torture device I have here somewhere.

I could not watch a whole feature length movie with this setup. Feather weight active shutter glasses are a day night difference for comfort during extended viewing.


This is remarkable technology.. especially stuffed into a cell phone. Until the size / weight of the equipment is reduced, I couldn't see investing in the PS4 VR, HTC or Rift setup on this upcoming round of VR. I am looking forward though to some beefy new graphics cards. Please send over a GeForce X80 Ti or 2 when they are released.
What I find to be the least impressive is the resolution, when testing out Netflix and a animation movie I only saw pixels not a movie...

I have not tested the last Oculus, but to me it seems like you need at least 4K resolution per eye to make this look good. Other than that it is a cool thing, but I am finished with it after about 30 minutes and will not use my Gear VR more with my S7 Edge.

Last edited by Andreas21; 03-21-2016 at 10:15 AM.
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post #14168 of 19419 Old 03-21-2016, 10:15 AM
 
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What I find to be the least impressive is the resolution, when testing out Netflix and a animation movie I only saw pixels not a movie...

I have not tested the last Oculus, but to me it seems like you need at least 4k resolution per eye to make this look good. Other than that it is a cool thing, but I am finished with it after about 30 minutes and will not use my Gear VR more with my S7 Edge.
Yeah, I thought the same thing with my Note 5 and the Gear VR. We unfortunately need even higher resolution screens for this to look convincing. I will say, despite the pixels being visible, it's amazing what they can do with the head tracking and low latency processing and display.
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post #14169 of 19419 Old 03-21-2016, 05:36 PM
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I have a "different" question for you guys - I might be able to ask it somewhere else (your advice is very welcome), but thought I would start here, since we're projector folks.

Do any of you have an equipment rack just below the screen and/or speakers flanking the left and right sides of the screen? I'm wondering how bad those surfaces would be for reflections? Any suggestions for those surfaces? My existing speakers are piano black, so it is a somewhat shiny surface.

Thanks,
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post #14170 of 19419 Old 03-21-2016, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by thezaks View Post
I have a "different" question for you guys - I might be able to ask it somewhere else (your advice is very welcome), but thought I would start here, since we're projector folks.

Do any of you have an equipment rack just below the screen and/or speakers flanking the left and right sides of the screen? I'm wondering how bad those surfaces would be for reflections? Any suggestions for those surfaces? My existing speakers are piano black, so it is a somewhat shiny surface.

Thanks,
Dave
If you can, locate the equipment elsewhere. If you can't, then dim or turn off all lights in the equipment and cover the shiny surfaces with black velvet.
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post #14171 of 19419 Old 03-22-2016, 10:33 AM
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I've been toying with the idea of buying the Samsung UHD BD player and using it with my RS400/500. Will this be an exercise in frustration -- in other words will it be worth the effort? Are there some tricks to get this combo to work? I'll be using a 10' 2.0 HDMI cable directly from the Samsung to the projector -- I have a 2.0a compliant receiver so should I be using it in between the player and the projector?

What about HDR? I think I heard there were some issues with the JVC's implementation of HDR or maybe a compatibility issue between the Samsung and the JVC.

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

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post #14172 of 19419 Old 03-22-2016, 11:20 AM
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I've been toying with the idea of buying the Samsung UHD BD player and using it with my RS400/500. Will this be an exercise in frustration -- in other words will it be worth the effort? Are there some tricks to get this combo to work? I'll be using a 10' 2.0 HDMI cable directly from the Samsung to the projector -- I have a 2.0a compliant receiver so should I be using it in between the player and the projector?

What about HDR? I think I heard there were some issues with the JVC's implementation of HDR or maybe a compatibility issue between the Samsung and the JVC.

Your thoughts would be appreciated.
I have the RS600 and had the K85000 - which I just sold. I still plan to be an early adopter of UHD, but I think I'll be waiting for the Panasonic (or Oppo). I think pending some firmware updates from both JVC and Samsung soon, it will be frustrating.

Others who have had more time to mess with this combo may be able to provide more input, but I simply haven't had the time nor wanted to purchase an HD Fury to get everything working.
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post #14173 of 19419 Old 03-22-2016, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post
I've been toying with the idea of buying the Samsung UHD BD player and using it with my RS400/500. Will this be an exercise in frustration -- in other words will it be worth the effort? Are there some tricks to get this combo to work? I'll be using a 10' 2.0 HDMI cable directly from the Samsung to the projector -- I have a 2.0a compliant receiver so should I be using it in between the player and the projector?

What about HDR? I think I heard there were some issues with the JVC's implementation of HDR or maybe a compatibility issue between the Samsung and the JVC.

Your thoughts would be appreciated.
It all depends on how sensitive you are to the sight of your own blood.
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post #14174 of 19419 Old 03-22-2016, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post
I've been toying with the idea of buying the Samsung UHD BD player and using it with my RS400/500. Will this be an exercise in frustration -- in other words will it be worth the effort? Are there some tricks to get this combo to work? I'll be using a 10' 2.0 HDMI cable directly from the Samsung to the projector -- I have a 2.0a compliant receiver so should I be using it in between the player and the projector?

What about HDR? I think I heard there were some issues with the JVC's implementation of HDR or maybe a compatibility issue between the Samsung and the JVC.

Your thoughts would be appreciated.
I've gotten a very good picture, but it took hours of tweaking etc. I think there's something wrong with the Samsung output because it pushes red. Hopefully they come out with an update soon that fixes that. If you aren't in a rush, wait to see how things shake out.
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For Sale: JVC X750R Projector (RS500 Equivalent) https://www.avsforum.com/forum/252-f...l#post58241092
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post #14175 of 19419 Old 03-22-2016, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
I recently fired up the DC4 Planar after finishing the black out project. The lack of good native becomes apparent very quickly and is more distracting than any advantage it could have had in higher APL scenes.

The feelings weren't much different before giving the VW1100 a final look before it moved onto it's new home. High ANSI, decent native (better than the Planar). It's just not convincing in lower APL scenes in a velvet room despite what those chart might otherwise indicate.

definitely a good conversation but I don't see an end or final conclusion. I think we all want high ANSI and high native but for now, with the choices we currently have, the JVC works better for the kind of content I like to watch.
I hadn't gone for the "total black out" treatment for a little while now because the black velvet curtain that covers my ceiling broke some attachments (so I couldn't put it up). I just fixed it, and did the full black out treatment tonight - including black even over the ottomans that I put my feet on - truly an image floating in a sea of pitch black. Playing plenty of space images - Star Wars, Alien etc, I was very impressed at how well the RS600's contrast and black floor held up in these most challenging conditions. It looked beautiful. Sometimes it felt like floating in space.
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post #14176 of 19419 Old 03-24-2016, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post
At one point in time I had both setup split screen here, JVC RS40 vs. Marantz vp11s2 and found it difficult to declare a clear winner on my mixed content.

But for me, even without such a theoretical perfect room, I still saw the DLP beat the JVC on a lot of content. Maybe I'll do this shootout again soon.
It is a dead argument when talking about movies, and 90% of the people in here know the argument is dead, but ok...
Sure with sports or something the native on/off isn't as important, but that is not why most people buy JVC...

You would be giving up so much.

Sure maybe an RS-40, a projector that came out in November of 2010. This is 2016...
There are also large QC variances on different models of JVC's...

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post #14177 of 19419 Old 03-25-2016, 03:58 AM
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It is a dead argument when talking about movies, and 90% of the people in here know the argument is dead, but ok...
Sure with sports or something the native on/off isn't as important, but that is not why most people buy JVC...

You would be giving up so much.

Sure maybe an RS-40, a projector that came out in November of 2010. This is 2016...
There are also large QC variances on different models of JVC's...



Do they ?
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post #14178 of 19419 Old 03-26-2016, 12:21 PM - Thread Starter
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If anyone has been struggling to find cables that will work OK with the JVC / Samsung player, you may want to give these a try.

http://www.amazon.com/Fusion4K-High-.../dp/B00JD3NCQY

I had the expensive Monster black platinum cables. They were stiff as a board and difficult to route. They would also lose signal with 4K/60 playback even with the HDFury.


With the recent firmware update + the cable above going directly to the projector, I can jump from any resolution / frame rate and never get the black screen from before.

Some of the 4K content on YouTube is remarkable. This was shot on the Red Epic camera and is definitely worth a look.


https://www.youtube.com/user/jacobschwarz

I just looked at some footage shot in UHD from my new Samsung S7, it looks very good. Also UHD footage from my Gopro Hero Black. The Samsung media player is doing a nice job playing back the content from these devices.
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post #14179 of 19419 Old 03-26-2016, 05:07 PM
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Zombie,

I recently found this UHD and it's pretty spectacular, IMHO.


I just need to get a device that decode 4k and has 2 HDMI outputs (my receiver doesn't do 4k). Or at least has SPDIF. I've looked into the Roku 4 but haven't purchased one...
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post #14180 of 19419 Old 03-28-2016, 09:12 AM - Thread Starter
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I checked out that video last night on the Samsung UHD player, it looked great.

The Samsung has been very well behaved with the recent JVC update and this new Fusion 4K cable I'm using. I took the HDFury out of the loop and haven't had any issues since the update.
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post #14181 of 19419 Old 03-29-2016, 05:04 AM
 
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
I checked out that video last night on the Samsung UHD player, it looked great.

The Samsung has been very well behaved with the recent JVC update and this new Fusion 4K cable I'm using. I took the HDFury out of the loop and haven't had any issues since the update.
What about up convension? Does it make 1080p movies look better?
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post #14182 of 19419 Old 03-29-2016, 05:21 AM
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If anyone has been struggling to find cables that will work OK with the JVC / Samsung player, you may want to give these a try.

http://www.amazon.com/Fusion4K-High-.../dp/B00JD3NCQY

I had the expensive Monster black platinum cables. They were stiff as a board and difficult to route. They would also lose signal with 4K/60 playback even with the HDFury.


With the recent firmware update + the cable above going directly to the projector, I can jump from any resolution / frame rate and never get the black screen from before.

Some of the 4K content on YouTube is remarkable. This was shot on the Red Epic camera and is definitely worth a look.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRt4Duf7GoI

https://www.youtube.com/user/jacobschwarz

I just looked at some footage shot in UHD from my new Samsung S7, it looks very good. Also UHD footage from my Gopro Hero Black. The Samsung media player is doing a nice job playing back the content from these devices.
Your using a super short run though, aren't you?
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post #14183 of 19419 Old 03-29-2016, 06:00 AM
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Your using a super short run though, aren't you?
Yes he is. Longer run solutions are few and expensive.
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post #14184 of 19419 Old 03-29-2016, 06:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Tom Bley View Post
Your using a super short run though, aren't you?
that's correct but it's the first cable I have here that works consistently. The $100 5 foot Monster black could barely hold 4/60 8 bit before dropping out - even after the firmware update.

these are fairly inexpensive cables, it's worth a shot to try it since it can be returned to Amazon if it doesn't work out.

I'm finally able to use this player with no fits or issues. I've been watching a lot of UHD content from Youtube, Netflix and also from the S7 / GoPro 4 which plays back fine from the built in media player.
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post #14185 of 19419 Old 04-05-2016, 12:47 PM - Thread Starter
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another UHD streaming service from Sony..

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/39-net...g-service.html

another UHD streaming service from Sony, this time only for the TV's. $30, no HDR or ATMOS. Only Sony titles available for now.

it sounds very appealing but may have to pass on this generous DOA offer.
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post #14186 of 19419 Old 04-06-2016, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
If anyone has been struggling to find cables that will work OK with the JVC / Samsung player, you may want to give these a try.

http://www.amazon.com/Fusion4K-High-.../dp/B00JD3NCQY

I had the expensive Monster black platinum cables. They were stiff as a board and difficult to route. They would also lose signal with 4K/60 playback even with the HDFury.


With the recent firmware update + the cable above going directly to the projector, I can jump from any resolution / frame rate and never get the black screen from before.

I've been kicking around the idea of buying these Jason but the ones I received from Sanus have been working pretty well so far and I love the 360 degree moveable heads (I do still get dropouts but very rarely @ 60p). For $99 (qty [email protected]$25), this seems very promising especially coming from HD Fury and the extensive testing they've done on them…

https://www.hdfury.com/shop/accessor...-0a-cables-x4/

Kevin

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post #14187 of 19419 Old 04-06-2016, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/39-net...g-service.html

another UHD streaming service from Sony, this time only for the TV's. $30, no HDR or ATMOS. Only Sony titles available for now.

it sounds very appealing but may have to pass on this generous DOA offer.



"in 4K/UHD resolution, many with high dynamic range using HDR10", but I to, may has to pass on the offer


dj
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post #14188 of 19419 Old 04-07-2016, 01:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by krichter1 View Post
I've been kicking around the idea of buying these Jason but the ones I received from Sanus have been working pretty well so far and I love the 360 degree moveable heads (I do still get dropouts but very rarely @ 60p). For $99 (qty [email protected]$25), this seems very promising especially coming from HD Fury and the extensive testing they've done on them…

https://www.hdfury.com/shop/accessor...-0a-cables-x4/
Thanks Kevin, I almost ordered these before the 4K Fusion cable arrived. The Samsung player has been well behaved since the firmware update so I'm leaving well enough alone for now until I get the 7200.

how was your Star Wars viewing? The contrast in the low APL scenes looked noticeably better than the 3 premiere theaters I saw it in.
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post #14189 of 19419 Old 04-07-2016, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Thanks Kevin, I almost ordered these before the 4K Fusion cable arrived. The Samsung player has been well behaved since the firmware update so I'm leaving well enough alone for now until I get the 7200.

how was your Star Wars viewing? The contrast in the low APL scenes looked noticeably better than the 3 premiere theaters I saw it in.
You guys are killing me. My Star Wars Blu Ray doesn't arrive until Sat. !!
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post #14190 of 19419 Old 04-07-2016, 06:29 PM
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Watched the SW blu ray last night and found it to be reference material for showing the projector's prowess, especially during space and inside vessel scenes. With daylight scenes though, particularly segments in desert Jakku for a moment I can't help but be reminded of my JC RS1 and this is where I've been curious to compare the RS500 with other displays.

Anyway, having seen the best of what blu ray offers I guess it's now time to move on to the next level. I'm going to pre-order the Panasonic UHD player and find out how my RS500 can handle the truth with HDR. I've still got some months ahead of Cedia before making another important move and decision.
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