Projector Mini-Shootout Thread - Page 477 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #14281 of 19442 Old 05-07-2016, 01:07 PM
 
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
Wake me up when someone who doesn't suck releases some such software.
We'll see what happens. I just have a feeling that a PC is going to offer the most versatility in terms of what you can output to your projector. We'll most likely see software that will be able to take the UHD HDR REC2020 signal and output basically ANYTHING you want to match the capabilities of what your projector can do and that's really what we need right now. Oppo may be the only disc player manufacturer that I can think of that might give us something like that from a hardware based UHD BD player, but they usually take their time to release their products. They let things mature and try and make a product that works as best it can.
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post #14282 of 19442 Old 05-07-2016, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
We'll see what happens. I just have a feeling that a PC is going to offer the most versatility in terms of what you can output to your projector. We'll most likely see software that will be able to take the UHD HDR REC2020 signal and output basically ANYTHING you want to match the capabilities of what your projector can do and that's really what we need right now.
Not from the likes of Cyberlink, Corel, etc it won't. And I don't see anyone else who can afford to play in this market.
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post #14283 of 19442 Old 05-07-2016, 01:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
My replacement X9000 (RS600) that I took delivery of a few weeks ago also has significantly better convergence and overall sharpness than the unit it replaced that was delivered to me in December.
Thanks for the feedback on your replacement. What are the first 2 digits of your serial #? This will indicate the month it was made.
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post #14284 of 19442 Old 05-07-2016, 01:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
Not from the likes of Cyberlink, Corel, etc it won't. And I don't see anyone else who can afford to play in this market.
If (and when) AACS 2.0 is cracked there will be plenty of options from several of the freeware software engineers. Madshi, who makes MadVR, and several of the other projects you can find over at doom9 will give us plenty of options to play with when that day comes.
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post #14285 of 19442 Old 05-07-2016, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
If (and when) AACS 2.0 is cracked there will be plenty of options from several of the freeware software engineers. Madshi, who makes MadVR, and several of the other projects you can find over at doom9 will give us plenty of options to play with when that day comes.
I am sure once AACS 2.0 is cracked jriver and Madshi will have something for us.

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post #14286 of 19442 Old 05-07-2016, 09:28 PM
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Zombie's original was from Dec and his replacement was from March. So I'm assuming around 4 months passed between receiving the first and second unit.
That's well past any store's return/exchange policy that I'm aware of. Are you saying JVC themselves directly exchanged it for him after all that time?
Zombie did not exchange his projector due to bright corners. His projector locked up. That is why his was exchanged under warranty.
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post #14287 of 19442 Old 05-08-2016, 10:29 AM
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I watched the remastered version of Independence Day on Blu-ray last night. It's obviously the type of movie that will appeal to high contrast projectors. It's a big upgrade over the original disc and has a nicely detailed, naturally sharp film-like image. Shadows, contrast, and color a bit upgrade as well. Film grain is nicely and tightly rendered so I doubt it will bother some of you film-grain haters. Highly recommended.
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post #14288 of 19442 Old 05-08-2016, 11:23 AM
 
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
I watched the remastered version of Independence Day on Blu-ray last night. It's obviously the type of movie that will appeal to high contrast projectors. It's a big upgrade over the original disc and has a nicely detailed, naturally sharp film-like image. Shadows, contrast, and color a bit upgrade as well. Film grain is nicely and tightly rendered so I doubt it will bother some of you film-grain haters. Highly recommended.
New vs Old Blu-ray (click for full size):





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post #14289 of 19442 Old 05-08-2016, 04:02 PM
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Capaholics mouseover comparison view here:

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post #14290 of 19442 Old 05-08-2016, 06:34 PM
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Zombie did not exchange his projector due to bright corners. His projector locked up. That is why his was exchanged under warranty.
By his dealer or JVC?
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post #14291 of 19442 Old 05-08-2016, 06:39 PM
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RS400/X5000 review. Includes contrast measurements for various scenes and rooms instead of just the typical full white/black measures.

http://projectiondream.com/en/jvc-dl...iew-projector/
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post #14292 of 19442 Old 05-08-2016, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post
By his dealer or JVC?
Dealer was involved, but I did not handle that one, so I do not know the details.
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post #14293 of 19442 Old 05-08-2016, 08:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
I watched the remastered version of Independence Day on Blu-ray last night. It's obviously the type of movie that will appeal to high contrast projectors. It's a big upgrade over the original disc and has a nicely detailed, naturally sharp film-like image. Shadows, contrast, and color a bit upgrade as well. Film grain is nicely and tightly rendered so I doubt it will bother some of you film-grain haters. Highly recommended.
One of my favorite sci-fi movies from the 80's was just released on BD, Alien Nation. This is a good transfer and worth a revisit since it was only on DVD until recently.

http://www.amazon.com/Alien-Nation-B...dp/B01CX1E8M4/

Now if Cameron will only hurry up with THE ABYSS. I have a HQ video of the theatrical release but the real movie (directors cut) is still waiting. I wonder what color filter treatment it will get.
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post #14294 of 19442 Old 05-09-2016, 05:10 AM
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@zombie10k jus wondering if had some time if could update your post #12193 linked in your sig with basic settings for UHD. I know jvc give some clues in their download but I thought id check in what your thoughts were

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post #14295 of 19442 Old 05-09-2016, 08:02 AM
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One of my favorite sci-fi movies from the 80's was just released on BD, Alien Nation. This is a good transfer and worth a revisit since it was only on DVD until recently.

http://www.amazon.com/Alien-Nation-B...dp/B01CX1E8M4/

Now if Cameron will only hurry up with THE ABYSS. I have a HQ video of the theatrical release but the real movie (directors cut) is still waiting. I wonder what color filter treatment it will get.


Oh my god THE ABYSS! Whats the damn hold up right!? Been waiting for that movie for literally years.
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post #14296 of 19442 Old 05-09-2016, 09:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by alebonau View Post
@zombie10k jus wondering if had some time if could update your post #12193 linked in your sig with basic settings for UHD. I know jvc give some clues in their download but I thought id check in what your thoughts were
sure I'll update it this week as it's mostly the recent recommendation from Cine4home during his video review of the JVC / Samsung combo.
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post #14297 of 19442 Old 05-09-2016, 09:48 AM - Thread Starter
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HDR state of the industry

This is an important post from ccool96. For those that know his posts on the forum, he has access to some remarkably expensive high end HT equipment and does a great job with his deep dives with this gear.

not long ago, we heard how HDR is inconsistent from disk to disk and how 'poorly' the JVC handled this kind of content. Having to change settings disk to disk. At the same time, a claim was made that HDR looked excellent on the 5000ES and that it had some magic sauce to dynamically 'fix' the encoding discrepancies from disk to disk. There was a number of contradicting reports from several that tested HDR on the 5000ES and it's looking more and more that the issue is HDR10 and the variances in encoding between each studio.

reviewing the HDTV article where the TV's were supposed to be the holy grail device that could handle these and there are still clearly issues.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ccool96 View Post
I was converting 4K 10bit rec2020 HDR > 4K 10bit Rec2020 SDR from very early in this thread.

Originally the Samsung was not doing a correct HDR > SDR conversion, but they fixed that early on.

To me this is the only way to go, and I completely agree with Joe Kane's comments on SDR being a better and potentially more dynamic option to HDR.

With SDR I get far better black levels, because I can run the power in low power mode with the iris at -10, and still have use to the auto iris if desired. For HDR you have to run the unit wide open to get enough standard image brightness, which greatly elevates the black floor, just to save room for "spectacular highlights".

I now have both the JVC RS600 and a Sony 5000ES, and both units preform way better with 4K 10bit Rec2020 SDR.

HDR is a mess. There is no standard from disc to disc, and ultimately limits the contrast range available for the vast majority of the movie, because so much is reserved for "highlights".

The integral is the best tool in the tool box at this point it time. Incredible device to have. SDR is a must on a JVC, especially when most people buy the JVC over other units specifically because of the incredible native contrast.

4K 10bit Rec2020 SDR should become the standard setup for projectors. This is really no different then what people have been doing when setting a projector up to resolve 16-235 and clipping everything from 235 - 255. While there might be occasional super white info, most didn't want to throw away the extra dynamic range for those rare occasions.

This has also been discussed at length as a problem with TV sets as well.

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/4k-vs-201604104279.htm


Manni's ears must be ringing across the pond because he was quite clear from day 1 that HDR10 was not the solution and we needed a dynamic process with metadata like the Dolby Vision.

Based on my recent experiments revisiting HDR vs SDR on the UHD discs, I'm leaning heavily towards this as a permanent solution for UHD BD's. This weekend I used the HDFury to send WCG but not HDR to the JVC and as CCool96 has stated - black levels are back to where JVC's excel and the overall PQ looks great with the WCG / 2020 profile.

If you are interested in the HDFury, I would pick one up soon. Some folks who created this HDMI spaghetti mess are not pleased with this device. I may get a 2nd as a backup, great device to have on hand.




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post #14298 of 19442 Old 05-09-2016, 09:53 AM
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So what's the difference between having the player (Samsung) tone map SMPTE 2084 down to SDR/Gamma, and having a projector do it? How does having the player do the conversion solve the problem of each disc being different?

If a player can do it with a one-size-fits-all solution then there's a problem with the displays if they can't.

Also, does that mean there's a way to get SDR Rec.2020 from the Samsung player?
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post #14299 of 19442 Old 05-09-2016, 10:10 AM - Thread Starter
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maybe CCool96 or Manni can answer those questions. I'm only going by the experiments with 1/2 dozen different UHD disks and going back and forth between HDR and SDR over the weekend.

The RS600 is reporting 10 bits and I'm using the 2020 profile + standard power gamma. Using the Martian for a reference, I thought it looked better in SDR is the majority of the scenes. Low APL scenes looked substantially better in SDR with low lamp, iris @ -11.

I'm not certain why it appears to be working so well, but I'm going to keep looking at HDR/SDR on each new UHD disk I get to see how consistent my preference is.
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post #14300 of 19442 Old 05-09-2016, 11:38 AM
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So what settings are you using to get SDR+Rec.2020 out of the Samsung?
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post #14301 of 19442 Old 05-10-2016, 08:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Deadpool is here today, definitely looking forward to checking this out in SDR and HDR. I have 2 profiles set up and will be interested in comparing both modes.




stanger - #11 on the HDFury, Samsung deep color is off. JVC is reporting 10 bits.



So will this be one of the first reference UHD's?

http://realorfake4k.com/my-product/deadpool/

This is the real deal. Everything was digitally shot 4K or the original film negative was scanned in 4K, the VFX were rendered in 4K, and all the mastering/editing was done in 4K. This is real UHD demo material.
  • 4K Phantom and 5K RED, (Limited scenes shot in 3.5K RAW)
  • VFX Rendered in 4K*
  • Digital Intermediate at 4K


Some great info on the link below regarding the editing workflow


http://www.cineticstudios.com/blog/2...-deadpool.html


The final digital intermediate was completed at EFILM by colorist Tim Stipan, who finished the film in 4K HDR. While there was some re-framing done during editorial, the director saw additional creative opportunities for re-framing in the color suite and spent two weeks doing so before actual color began. While the film was originally set to be graded & finished in Blackmagic DaVinci Resolve, Bierman comments, "we ended up on finishing on a [Fimlight] Baselight system using as much camera RAW as possible and OpenEXR for VFX." The final audio mix was delivered in Stereo, 5.1, 7.1, Dolby Atmos, and IMAX, if that wasn't enough variety.
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post #14302 of 19442 Old 05-10-2016, 09:13 AM
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Zombie,

Are you seeing any befits in resolution/clarity with the UHD discs vs regular Blu-Rays? We projector folk with our big screens are supposed to be the ones to benefit from 4K resolution...
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post #14303 of 19442 Old 05-10-2016, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
Zombie,

Are you seeing any befits in resolution/clarity with the UHD discs vs regular Blu-Rays? We projector folk with our big screens are supposed to be the ones to benefit from 4K resolution...
I would also like to know if some proper A/B comparisons have been done.
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post #14304 of 19442 Old 05-10-2016, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Wizziwig View Post
RS400/X5000 review. Includes contrast measurements for various scenes and rooms instead of just the typical full white/black measures.

http://projectiondream.com/en/jvc-dl...iew-projector/
There is another color space option, custom. Choosing that imediately made all colors below 1.5 on the dE. I used custom 1 for all the choices and hardly had to make any changes to achieve a very good calibration (C6 + Calman Enthusiast). The custom color was mentioned in the projector reviews review.
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post #14305 of 19442 Old 05-10-2016, 01:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Rich / Dave - I'll let you know after I look closely at Deadpool, I also have the BD as well. So BD SDR, UHD SDR,. UHD HDR.


Well I said if a few trusted members gave thumbs up for the Dune Solo 4K I would bite... and... it will be here tomorrow. Nice!

Can't wait to see how it compares to my trusted Mede8ter which has been practically flawless for 3 years. Full BD menu support will be nice if it works well.



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post #14306 of 19442 Old 05-10-2016, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Rich / Dave - I'll let you know after I look closely at Deadpool, I also have the BD as well. So BD SDR, UHD SDR,. UHD HDR.


Well I said if a few trusted members gave thumbs up for the Dune Solo 4K I would bite... and... it will be here tomorrow. Nice!

Can't wait to see how it compares to my trusted Mede8ter which has been practically flawless for 3 years. Full BD menu support will be nice if it works well.
Definitely interested in your feedback on this one. At $360 it's not inexpensive but if it delivers on playback then definitely worth considering.
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post #14307 of 19442 Old 05-10-2016, 02:48 PM
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I'd like to buy a nice 27"-30" OLED PC Monitor. How come we haven't see these yet?
Here's a 4K 30" Dell UP3017Q for a cool $5000. https://pcmonitors.info/dell/dell-up...-oled-monitor/

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OLED seems to suffer, to some extent, image retention. This doesn't bode well for PC monitor use where things like the windows task bar sits constantly. I'd imagine that Dell monitor has some sort of noise creation processing built in like Plasmas did to help prevent burn in from occuring. I don't know how much I'd like a PC monitor that has burn in issues.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
OLED seems to suffer, to some extent, image retention. This doesn't bode well for PC monitor use where things like the windows task bar sits constantly. I'd imagine that Dell monitor has some sort of noise creation processing built in like Plasmas did to help prevent burn in from occuring. I don't know how much I'd like a PC monitor that has burn in issues.
"Dell says it has remedied the shortcomings of OLED panels by introducing a pixel-shifting algorithm that prevents burn-in, and an image sensor that can tell whether or not you're viewing the monitor and turns it off when it's not in use."
Credit: http://www.techradar.com/us/reviews/...1311504/review
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post #14310 of 19442 Old 05-10-2016, 03:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
This is an important post from ccool96. For those that know his posts on the forum, he has access to some remarkably expensive high end HT equipment and does a great job with his deep dives with this gear.

"Not long ago, we heard how HDR is inconsistent from disk to disk and how 'poorly' the JVC handled this kind of content. Having to change settings disk to disk. At the same time, a claim was made that HDR looked excellent on the 5000ES and that it had some magic sauce to dynamically 'fix' the encoding discrepancies from disk to disk. There was a number of contradicting reports from several that tested HDR on the 5000ES and it's looking more and more that the issue is HDR10 and the variances in encoding between each studio.

Reviewing the HDTV article where the TV's were supposed to be the holy grail device that could handle these and there are still clearly issues."

Manni's ears must be ringing across the pond because he was quite clear from day 1 that HDR10 was not the solution and we needed a dynamic process with metadata like the Dolby Vision.

Based on my recent experiments revisiting HDR vs SDR on the UHD discs, I'm leaning heavily towards this as a permanent solution for UHD BD's. This weekend I used the HDFury to send WCG but not HDR to the JVC and as CCool96 has stated - black levels are back to where JVC's excel and the overall PQ looks great with the WCG / 2020 profile.

If you are interested in the HDFury, I would pick one up soon. Some folks who created this HDMI spaghetti mess are not pleased with this device. I may get a 2nd as a backup, great device to have on hand.
IMO, HDR is better suited for OLED or any other display tech with self-emissive pixels. OLED is good, but I believe QLED is the future.

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