Projector Mini-Shootout Thread - Page 504 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #15091 of 19421 Old 09-05-2016, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Wow, the 520ES looks out of focus by comparison! The A900B looks killer sharp. If you get a chance, can you take a few more photos close enough to show the pixel grid on the 520ES like I did with the 665ES? Look at my second photo which is a very close up shot. You can easily make out the pixel grid in that one.

Thanks!
The Sony is as sharp as it can be, perhaps it's the screen size 106" the pixel is so small.

I Will try again.

I'm a little bit surprised my self.

I have a Pioneer LX88 Blu-Ray, I will try to let it do the upscaling.
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post #15092 of 19421 Old 09-05-2016, 01:32 PM
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Ok - here is new fotos, with the Pioneer LX-88 as source.
You can see the pixel if you magnify the picture, I can see them on the original.


That's the best I can do, but now the posterization is showing it ugly face


The Pioneer is a little bit sharper than the Panasonic.
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post #15093 of 19421 Old 09-05-2016, 01:46 PM
 
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Thank you for the new photos. It's much easier to see in those photos. For me at least, I can make it out on my screen from a seated distance especially on faces. I'm only 27 so I think my young eyes can make it out a bit easier than some of the others who own it. Lucky for them. I don't need a camera close to the screen zoomed in to see it. I suspect for others they'd need to walk or sit closer to see it. Whether or not the issue is bothersome isn't the point, my point here is that it's not supposed to be in the image. I'd love it for Sony to fix the issue and I hope to see it fixed soon. I won't own a Sony projector for an extended period of time until it's gone. @ccool96 is reporting the issue is there as well on both of his 5000ES units. For a $60000 projector they should have fixed the issue. It's been there since day one going all the way back to the 1000ES. They've had over 5 years to get rid of it and haven't yet. It's a shame because I like these Sony units a lot.

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post #15094 of 19421 Old 09-05-2016, 02:12 PM
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Has anybody tested if a smooth grayscale can be reproduced smoothly?

From the photos it seems that the posterization spans multiple pixels. Are you guys sure that it's an SXRD panel issue? My first guess would be some processing issue, like the non-defeatable noise reduction (that we know the 4K Sony projectors suffer from) or something like that. But I don't know for sure, of course. I find it hard to believe it would be a panel issue, though. If the panels can't fully resolve 8bit, then they could use dithering, no big problem.
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post #15095 of 19421 Old 09-05-2016, 02:14 PM
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- and the UHD version
Wow


The last picture is the BD version, from Pioneer LX-88 upscaled.
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post #15096 of 19421 Old 09-05-2016, 02:24 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mirodk View Post
- and the UHD version
Wow


The last picture is the BD version, from Pioneer LX-88 upscaled.
The UHD version of Oblivion is pure and utter crap.

Other than this it is easy to see this is present in the VW520 also, and I saw that when I tested the VW520 side by side with my RS600 so I already knew that...
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post #15097 of 19421 Old 09-05-2016, 02:26 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Has anybody tested if a smooth grayscale can be reproduced smoothly?

From the photos it seems that the posterization spans multiple pixels. Are you guys sure that it's an SXRD panel issue? My first guess would be some processing issue, like the non-defeatable noise reduction (that we know the 4K Sony projectors suffer from) or something like that. But I don't know for sure, of course. I find it hard to believe it would be a panel issue, though. If the panels can't fully resolve 8bit, then they could use dithering, no big problem.

There's a greyscale ramp test pattern in the service menu of these 4K SXRD units. There's noticeable banding in the image. Notice the green and pinkish bands in the ramp:



There's a vertical ramp test pattern too. Banding is easily seen in that one too. Though the direction of the banding changes with orientation of the ramp.

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post #15098 of 19421 Old 09-05-2016, 02:33 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
There's a greyscale ramp test pattern in the service menu of these 4K SXRD units. There's noticeable banding in the image. Notice the green and pinkish bands in the ramp:



There's a vertical ramp test pattern too. Banding is easily seen in that one too. Though the direction of the banding changes with orientation of the ramp.
It is impossible to get a good ramp with the 4K Sonys due to the banding problem, even if it is "perfect" in the calibration report.
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post #15099 of 19421 Old 09-05-2016, 02:37 PM
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Ouch. So it might be a panel issue, after all, I don't really know.
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post #15100 of 19421 Old 09-05-2016, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mirodk View Post
- and the UHD version
Wow


The last picture is the BD version, from Pioneer LX-88 upscaled.
Wow, one has to start to wonder what went wrong during the mastering process of the UHD version of Oblivion. Almost looks like there's some sort of softfilter laid over the picture compared to the 1080p blu-ray. A lot less sharp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Thank you for the new photos. It's much easier to see in those photos. For me at least, I can make it out on my screen from a seated distance especially on faces. I'm only 27 so I think my young eyes can make it out a bit easier than some of the others who own it. Lucky for them. I don't need a camera close to the screen zoomed in to see it. I suspect for others they'd need to walk or sit closer to see it. Whether or not the issue is bothersome isn't the point, my point here is that it's not supposed to be in the image. I'd love it for Sony to fix the issue and I hope to see it fixed soon. I won't own a Sony projector for an extended period of time until it's gone. @ccool96 is reporting the issue is there as well on both of his 5000ES units. For a $60000 projector they should have fixed the issue. It's been there since day one going all the way back to the 1000ES. They've had over 5 years to get rid of it and haven't yet. It's a shame because I like these Sony units a lot.
I can definitely see from the pictures posted here how this can become bothersome once you've seen it and know what to look for. It sort of makes the fine details in the color gradations clump together in "blotches" (if that's a word), so instead of getting a refined and gradual change of color detail you get small blobs of the same color in the image, making it almost look like a painting when viewed up close.

I completely agree that this is something they should have figured out and fixed a while ago if it's been a problem this long. If one notices it or not is besides the point, it isn't there in the source and shouldn't be there on the screen.

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post #15101 of 19421 Old 09-05-2016, 03:01 PM
 
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Wow, one has to start to wonder what went wrong during the mastering process of the UHD version of Oblivion. Almost looks like there's some sort of softfilter laid over the picture compared to the 1080p blu-ray. A lot less sharp.
This softness is easily seen throughout the whole movie and I have no idea why this was even released. The BD is one of the best when it comes to PQ and I use it for demo purposes all the time, the UHD is simply a joke and they need to release a new version and give all buyers of the first one a copy for free...
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post #15102 of 19421 Old 09-05-2016, 03:18 PM
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This softness is easily seen throughout the whole movie and I have no idea why this was even released. The BD is one of the best when it comes to PQ and I use it for demo purposes all the time, the UHD is simply a joke and they need to release a new version and give all buyers of the first one a copy for free...
Yeah, it's very surprising that the UHD transfer isn't better since Oblivion on regular blu-ray is arguably one of the best and cleanest transfers available. All it needed was good upscaling to 4k keeping the sharpness intact in a natural looking way, as well as the WCG and HDR treatment. It would probably look insanely good if done right.

Here's a video I took of the blu-ray version of Oblivion with my Epson LS10000 projecting onto a Dreamscreen V5 dynagrey 0,9 gain screen. This movie really shows what good ol' blu-ray is capable of when at its best.


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post #15103 of 19421 Old 09-06-2016, 05:14 AM
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Here is 4 pictures, 2 from Sony VW520 and 2 from Samsung SP-A900
Thanks, I enjoyed it. 1080p DLP picture looks sharper than UHD SXRD.
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post #15104 of 19421 Old 09-06-2016, 10:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Jungle Book 3D BD - get it!

for US 3D fans considering buying Jungle Book in 2D (only avail in 2D in the US) I highly recommend finding the 3D BD version of the movie. We watched it with 8 guests last night and it was a remarkable presentation. They put some serious effort into the 3D and it becomes part of the story telling. I watched some scenes in 2D and it gets lost and looks flat in comparison.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Jungle-B...-/162121223152

it's a shame Disney has stopped distributing 3D BD in the US but it's easy enough to find.
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post #15105 of 19421 Old 09-06-2016, 10:27 AM
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Ekki from Cine4home found something interesting about the FI in 4k with the JVC.

Read at the end of that post :

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post46586217
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post #15106 of 19421 Old 09-06-2016, 10:35 AM
 
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Ekki from Cine4home found something interesting about the FI in 4k with the JVC.

Read at the end of that post :

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post46586217
I really wouldn't call this "interesting" as we've known FI with UHD material was with shortcuts prior to this. The FI is used with the subframes created before the images are sent out through their eshift system. And obviously because the panels can only represent 1/4 the information, and half of 4K through eshift (~4 million pixels), it's not surprising at all that some pixel information is lost.
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post #15107 of 19421 Old 09-06-2016, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
I really wouldn't call this "interesting" as we've known FI with UHD material was with shortcuts prior to this. The FI is used with the subframes created before the images are sent out through their eshift system. And obviously because the panels can only represent 1/4 the information, and half of 4K through eshift (~4 million pixels), it's not surprising at all that some pixel information is lost.
I found that interesting and Ekki seem to found that interesting since he take the time to include that fact in his presentation.
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post #15108 of 19421 Old 09-06-2016, 12:01 PM - Thread Starter
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based on some of the new info coming in on the 550, it still doesn't seem like a compelling enough update for current 520/665 owners to take a loss on the resale + purchase a new 15K model that isn't brighter or noticeably better with contrast. We've heard 'improved RC' with each new Sony release - what does that actually mean and how tangible of an improvement is it. other HDR adjustments will come via firmware update for the current models so that doesn't leave much left over if they can't implement 4K FI in this current chassis.

After seeing HDR vs SDR on UHD, I'm primarily focused on UHD SDR WCG going forward. When a trusted member states that even the 5000ES doesn't have enough lumens for HDR, we are really fishing here trying to get these 1500-2000 lumen projectors to handle HDR. Anything that takes away from the stellar low APL performance of the JVC is a negative. Watching Lucy @ -10 on the iris, UHD SDR WCG with amazing low APL performance and convincing FTB isn't going to leave most folks wanting much more at this price point.

it would have been more interesting if the HDR metadata was dynamic but until then, folks are going to see wide variations between different studios. Thankfully Panasonic put some magic in this UB900 that can handle the HDR-SDR conversion remarkably well.

I see the folks in the 5040 asking tons of q's about HDR, it's nowhere near plug and play like BD / typical gamma cal / R709, etc. this is going to cause a lot of confusion. especially when quirky UHD players like the Samsung are running amok.
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post #15109 of 19421 Old 09-06-2016, 02:34 PM
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...it would have been more interesting if the HDR metadata was dynamic but until then, folks are going to see wide variations between different studios. ...
I don't understand the whole dynamic meta-data thing. It seems to me, even for 1080p blu-ray, we have projectors that must be looking at the peak APL of the frames in order to implement DI. So why can't they do the same on-the-fly calculation for UHD HDR, and have the equivalent information as dynamic meta-data?
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post #15110 of 19421 Old 09-07-2016, 10:21 AM
 
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@Cine4Home Ekki, can you comment on the issue with posterization at all? Pictures can be found here and here. What's your opinion on the matter in terms of picture quality and the negatives it might bring to our 8 bit and now 10 bit color sources on blu-ray. I loved the 665ES (520ES) and thought that it essentially brought the image quality of the 1100ES down half in price. But as they haven't gotten rid of this issue yet with that model, I couldn't justify keeping this unit with the issue. There are also reports that the issue is there on the 5000ES too. Do you have any contacts at Sony who might be able to give us a more clear answer as to what exactly causes the issue and if it might be resolved with new projectors in the coming years? I've been told it's a hardware issue with the device that gives the SXRD panel it's information, ie the panel drivers. Is there any way to confirm this? As always, I highly respect your opinion and would love to hear what you think.

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post #15111 of 19421 Old 09-07-2016, 03:24 PM
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I think you guys mentioned something about the Sony's having some issue with losing contrast over time? Is this different than the posterization that you are talking about?

We have a Star Power store here in Scottsdale, AZ, and they had a 1000ES and then I think they might have upgraded it to an 1100ES. Anyway, it produced a really nice picture 2 years ago. However, I've gone in that store maybe 3-4 times in the past year, and each time I see it, I'm so disappointed. It looks terribly washed out, even with the lights out. They had an HW55 in another room, and it looked 100 times better. They even swapped out the white screen with a Screen Innovations Slate recently, and it still looks washed out.

That's one of the reasons why I chose the RS500.

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post #15112 of 19421 Old 09-07-2016, 03:42 PM
 
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I think you guys mentioned something about the Sony's having some issue with losing contrast over time? Is this different than the posterization that you are talking about?

We have a Star Power store here in Scottsdale, AZ, and they had a 1000ES and then I think they might have upgraded it to an 1100ES. Anyway, it produced a really nice picture 2 years ago. However, I've gone in that store maybe 3-4 times in the past year, and each time I see it, I'm so disappointed. It looks terribly washed out, even with the lights out. They had an HW55 in another room, and it looked 100 times better. They even swapped out the white screen with a Screen Innovations Slate recently, and it still looks washed out.

That's one of the reasons why I chose the RS500.

Dave
The 1000ES/1100ES seems to be easily susceptible to contrast loss. Tons of people were reporting a loss of contrast of somewhere close to 17000:1 contrast to start and ending up with ~3000:1 or lower after only a 1000 hours of use with the projector. This is most likely what you're seeing on that unit.
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post #15113 of 19421 Old 09-07-2016, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
The 1000ES/1100ES seems to be easily susceptible to contrast loss. Tons of people were reporting a loss of contrast of somewhere close to 17000:1 contrast to start and ending up with ~3000:1 or lower after only a 1000 hours of use with the projector. This is most likely what you're seeing on that unit.
Thanks! Makes sense - they have this projector on every day for probably at least 8 hours/day. It amazes me that they still have it up in the main show room and still expecting to get the premium price.

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post #15114 of 19421 Old 09-07-2016, 03:50 PM
 
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Thanks! Makes sense - they have this projector on every day for probably at least 8 hours/day. It amazes me that they still have it up in the main show room and still expecting to get the premium price.

Dave
I think Sony said last week at IFA that they're discontinuing the 1100ES. So I'm sure they're keen on selling it soon to put a new model up. It should be said that Sony still hasn't mentioned that this issue is resolved. We're still waiting on some measurements on these new units to see if the current crop of 4K SXRD models are also losing contrast.
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post #15115 of 19421 Old 09-08-2016, 12:50 AM
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Have anyone put up any comparisons between Epson 6040 & JVC RS400/500 ? Or maybe Epson is still too freshh.. Just need to make up my mind between RS400 / 6040 ..
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post #15116 of 19421 Old 09-08-2016, 02:32 AM
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for US 3D fans considering buying Jungle Book in 2D (only avail in 2D in the US) I highly recommend finding the 3D BD version of the movie. We watched it with 8 guests last night and it was a remarkable presentation. They put some serious effort into the 3D and it becomes part of the story telling. I watched some scenes in 2D and it gets lost and looks flat in comparison.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/The-Jungle-B...-/162121223152

it's a shame Disney has stopped distributing 3D BD in the US but it's easy enough to find.
watched last week in 2D zombie, it is available over in oz as a 2D / 3D combo for us,
http://www.ezydvd.com.au/blu-ray/jun...opy/dp/6175116

wiht the kids we usually follow up in 3D since we usually watch movies like this again. sounds like was a treat, look forward to seeing again

I really enjoyed what they did with the movie...really so well done
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post #15117 of 19421 Old 09-08-2016, 04:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Some early info on the VW550 from Ekki. I wonder if they will add the 4K FI next year, it sounds like it would need a chassis revision. good to hear many of the HDR updates will make it to the older models, it seemed like a painful journey for the 665 owners this past year.

http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projek...w550_test3.htm

The Motionflow system has not been revised, they can still miss VW550 at native 4K playback. Thus the flagship VW5000 remains the only native 4K projector with interframe in 4K. The engineers attribute this to temperature problem of FI-processor in relatively small VW chassis. Too bad it many have been waiting for.


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post #15118 of 19421 Old 09-09-2016, 12:09 PM - Thread Starter
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PS4 Update - no UHD BD support

interesting info below. So now 2 major consoles without proper UHD BD support.


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/94-hom...k-blu-ray.html

In its own words, here's why Sony cut out the 4K UHD Blu-ray player from the PS4 Pro: "Our feeling is that while physical media continues to be a big part of the games business, we see a trend on video towards streaming. Certainly with our user base, it's the second biggest use case for people's time on the system so we place more emphasis on that area," Sony Interactive Entertainment President Andrew House told The Guardian.

Read more: http://www.tweaktown.com/news/53814/...yer/index.html
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post #15119 of 19421 Old 09-09-2016, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
interesting info below. So now 2 major consoles without proper UHD BD support.


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/94-hom...k-blu-ray.html

In its own words, here's why Sony cut out the 4K UHD Blu-ray player from the PS4 Pro: "Our feeling is that while physical media continues to be a big part of the games business, we see a trend on video towards streaming. Certainly with our user base, it's the second biggest use case for people's time on the system so we place more emphasis on that area," Sony Interactive Entertainment President Andrew House told The Guardian.

Read more: http://www.tweaktown.com/news/53814/...yer/index.html
Curious that Sony has no 4K Blu Ray player.
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post #15120 of 19421 Old 09-09-2016, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
Curious that Sony has no 4K Blu Ray player.
They, like some others, may be waiting for the MediaTek chip solution.
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