Projector Mini-Shootout Thread - Page 511 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #15301 of 19421 Old 10-12-2016, 07:13 AM - Thread Starter
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I watched about 1/2 hour of Pacific Rim last night.. wow, this looks remarkable on the JVC and the ATMOS track is insane ! A must buy UHD disc but I do miss the 3D a bit in this particular film.



Ralph's great review below:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/187-of...ay-review.html



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post #15302 of 19421 Old 10-12-2016, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
I think it's possible given Epson released the LS10000/105000 at a close enough price to the RS500/600.

I also think a lamp based native 4K RS model near the RS600 price might be an option.

What if they release both types at similar pricing? That would be interesting.
I would guess a lamp based 4k pj slightly above the RS600 price. It will be interesting to see if they carry over the 400 and 500 or update them.

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post #15303 of 19421 Old 10-12-2016, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Ericglo View Post
I would guess a lamp based 4k pj slightly above the RS600 price. It will be interesting to see if they carry over the 400 and 500 or update them.
I would think after two years, they will do something to the RS400 and RS500.
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post #15304 of 19421 Old 10-12-2016, 09:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gnolivos View Post
Completed my first test using a scene from Transformers 1 bluray that makes me cringe with the poor motion. I put a timer in field of view to keep track of time, and captured slow motion with a an iPhone 6. (I believe it captures at 240 frames per second).

I then counted frames in a full 1 second interval. The answer is a perfect 24. So that's not it.

The only anomaly I do notice is a ghosting between frames. It seems that as the new frame kicks in, the old one slowly fades out. This might be the way LCD panels function, and normal for the camera to capture. I am really not sure. What do others think?

Here is a screen capture of that:
I watched this on my RS600 and Planar DLP last night, I could not replicate what you are showing above. Do you have multiple sources to try (different BD players?)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelvin1000 View Post
Does anyone know if the JVC X550R suffer from any of the above mentioned 24fps issues?
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post #15305 of 19421 Old 10-12-2016, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
I watched this on my RS600 and Planar DLP last night, I could not replicate what you are showing above. Do you have multiple sources to try (different BD players?)


Do you have a camera that can capture 240frames per second? Im guessing thats what the screen grab is from.

This would be an excellent test to do on a 4K Sony to see how its panels handle frame refreshes. This could explain a lot of the motion complaints from people.

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post #15306 of 19421 Old 10-12-2016, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
I'm really hoping for an e-Shift version of the 4500 next year, Ideally at the RS500 or RS600 price point.
This is a very good concept. I would buy a bright e-shifted (4 million pixels native) laser JVC over a 4K lamp version. If JVC is looking to keep the similar cost structure as the RS500/600 our wallets will vote unanimously for the e-shifted chip with a high lumen laser light source.
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post #15307 of 19421 Old 10-12-2016, 04:53 PM
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Well this year was the rebuild of the velvet pit, but next year I will be going big on a new PJ in the RS600 price range. The contrast the RS600 produces is kinda mind blowing when I consider what my X500 does. I really am hoping they will have something that is 4K,in that price range but I am am not overly confident. I feel like a true 4K machine will give me a few more years before I feel compelled to upgrade again.
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post #15308 of 19421 Old 10-13-2016, 03:30 AM
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Has anyone done a comparison on 24p playback between the JVC X550R and the Epson 5040 since the majority of 4K UHD Blu-rays use this format which seems to introduce some artifacts and ghosting during panning scenes?
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post #15309 of 19421 Old 10-13-2016, 04:00 PM
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With regards to native 24p motion, here's a couple of short videos I did tonight of my LS10000 showing the movie "13 Hours".

The first four clips are shot with the Iphone slow-mo feature during a very demanding panning scene at the opening of the movie. In the fifth and final clip I just tried to show how motion looks during a normal scene with no frame interpolation enabled from seating distance.

Frame Interpolation OFF

Frame Interpolation on "Low"

Frame Interpolation on "Normal"

Frame Interpolation on "High"

Last edited by kohe321; 11-02-2016 at 10:54 AM.
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post #15310 of 19421 Old 10-14-2016, 07:52 AM
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Oh, really? I guess you're right, now I only have to worry about getting a car loan in the bank.
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post #15311 of 19421 Old 10-14-2016, 08:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
I think it's possible given Epson released the LS10000/105000 at a close enough price to the RS500/600.

I also think a lamp based native 4K RS model near the RS600 price might be an option.

What if they release both types at similar pricing? That would be interesting.
Not if it has the same lens as the RS4500. Depends on what JVC does lens wise.
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post #15312 of 19421 Old 10-14-2016, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Not if it has the same lens as the RS4500. Depends on what JVC does lens wise.
I would not expect it to have the RS4500 lens.

However, some have argued the current RS600 lens is good enough to resolve native 4K.
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post #15313 of 19421 Old 10-14-2016, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post
I would not expect it to have the RS4500 lens.

However, some have argued the current RS600 lens is good enough to resolve native 4K.
I think lamp based 4K or E-shift laser would do very well, especially if the laser had 1,700/1,800 lumens calibrated.
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post #15314 of 19421 Old 10-14-2016, 09:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Epson 5040 HDMI FAQ

Epson posted info for the 5040/6040 so at least folks will know what will and won't work with the 10.2 Gbps chipset.



It's odd they put the 18 Gbps chipset on the wireless (handicapped to 4K/30 at the higher CS) vs just using it on the wired side which could have provided the full bandwidth.

also further confirmation that the Sony 675 doesn't have the full chipset either. JVC stands alone here for another year.

Some will say you don't need it but it does seem to make things easier when everything in the chain has the same bandwidth capabilities. With the installation of the 7200WA, I've had no issues with the Samsung/Panasonic UHD players and the Roku Ultra + RS600.
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post #15315 of 19421 Old 10-14-2016, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Already fitted with a draping of the royalty 3, I have quite a bit left over from my project. It's completely invisible during viewing yet I can remove it and show off the bling a little before the movie starts..

Which Rythmik subs do you have? besides the new SVS PB16 Ultra that was my 2nd consideration, a pair of FV15HP's.
I have one FV15HP and love it. I highly doubt the PB16 Ultra is $1000 better. If you must have the few extra dB though and don't mind the sticker shock, go for it...I'm sure the PB16 Ultra is a fantastic sub.

You also get a discount if you order multiple FV15HP's. And you don't even have to order them together. You can still get the discount later down the road if you decide to get more of them.

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post #15316 of 19421 Old 10-14-2016, 11:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mr. Hatcher View Post
I have one FV15HP and love it. I highly doubt the PB16 Ultra is $1000 better. If you must have the few extra dB though and don't mind the sticker shock, go for it...I'm sure the PB16 Ultra is a fantastic sub.

You also get a discount if you order multiple FV15HP's. And you don't even have to order them together. You can still get the discount later down the road if you decide to get more of them.
Thanks for the feedback @thezaks as well. I can pick up a pair of the FVHP15's for less than 1 of the PB16 Ultra's and my room is fairly large so I'd want 2 subs to replace the 2 I have now.

going to make an impulsive decision soon.
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post #15317 of 19421 Old 10-14-2016, 11:48 AM
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I keep on getting subscription notifications, only to find Subwoofer talk. What?!

Setup: Epson 5040 UB, 110" SilverTicket AT screen, PS3 bluray, Yamaha RX-V673 AVR, Polk and Athena speakers, Batcave room.
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post #15318 of 19421 Old 10-14-2016, 12:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by gnolivos View Post
I keep on getting subscription notifications, only to find Subwoofer talk. What?!
Sorry, we can go back to discussing the 5040 24P frame rate issue.

have you made any new discovery's here? Does it happen with all your sources? RickAV knows projectors and pointed it out immediately so we don't know if it's systemic, batch related, etc.

edit: 1 day left on cedia deals in case you change your mind. That room would be perfect for a JVC.
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post #15319 of 19421 Old 10-14-2016, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Sorry, we can go back to discussing the 5040 24P frame rate issue.

have you made any new discovery's here? Does it happen with all your sources? RickAV knows projectors and pointed it out immediately so we don't know if it's systemic, batch related, etc.

edit: 1 day left on cedia deals in case you change your mind. That room would be perfect for a JVC.


Well I watched Prometheus yesterday and nothing bothered me. Strange don't you think? I'm not sure if it is movie dependent, or just random. I think, possibly, the issue I describe is more prevalent on fast action movies with high contrast content. Prometheus was mostly a very dark movie.

I continue to investigate.

Which JvC specifically would be comparable in features and price point?

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post #15320 of 19421 Old 10-14-2016, 03:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gnolivos View Post
Well I watched Prometheus yesterday and nothing bothered me. Strange don't you think? I'm not sure if it is movie dependent, or just random. I think, possibly, the issue I describe is more prevalent on fast action movies with high contrast content. Prometheus was mostly a very dark movie.

I continue to investigate.

Which JvC specifically would be comparable in features and price point?


In my experience, the Epson and a JVC which I have compared side-by-side for several weeks behave exactly the same way with 24p content.

I also strongly believe that it depends on the movie and on the scene.

Furthermore, my Pioneer Kuro also behaves the same way and I have tried using several different players including the Samsung K8500 and a Panasonic UB900 with nearly identical results for all the sources and display devices.

The JVC is a wonderful projector but I would sample it with the content that you have a problem with before purchasing it or you are likely to be disappointed with regards to your issue with 24p playback.
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post #15321 of 19421 Old 10-14-2016, 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gnolivos View Post
Well I watched Prometheus yesterday and nothing bothered me. Strange don't you think? I'm not sure if it is movie dependent, or just random. I think, possibly, the issue I describe is more prevalent on fast action movies with high contrast content. Prometheus was mostly a very dark movie.

I continue to investigate.

Which JvC specifically would be comparable in features and price point?
Could depend on if the movie was shot on film or video too. Try setting your Blu Ray player at 60fps and see what happens.
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post #15322 of 19421 Old 10-14-2016, 04:56 PM
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If you have Netflix watch the latest Standup by Russel Peters ('Almost Famous'). The motion on this seems really bad to me. Is it the source? Or the projector?

Setup: Epson 5040 UB, 110" SilverTicket AT screen, PS3 bluray, Yamaha RX-V673 AVR, Polk and Athena speakers, Batcave room.
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post #15323 of 19421 Old 10-14-2016, 07:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by RickAVManiac View Post
I put some hours on the 5040 this weekend and I can say that there something wrong with the 24fps motion on this projector. I read about that in another thread and can confirm the issue is real. When send a 24fps signal (any movie), the motion look like 15 fps. (eshift on or off). Seem also related to image quality. Some 720p sources look like crap, Older 1080p sources look bad, new 1080p source look barely ok and 4k seem just ok. I try to play with all setting but nothing seem to change that. The 60fps signal seem to look ok.

Beside 24fps motion issue, after a good calibration, the projector could look good. eshfit implementation is very good and 4k HDR WCG look pretty good too.
Rick have you had a chance to do any more testing with the 5040?
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post #15324 of 19421 Old 10-15-2016, 04:55 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Rick have you had a chance to do any more testing with the 5040?
The 5040 is already back to my dealer. Beside the price and the 24p motion issue, I thought the Epson was pretty good. I really like the new lens, it really help to get the best out of 1080p and the 4k eshift. The projector look sharp and can keep a non processed natural look.

But, at the end of the day, I think the price is a bit high, it's still a 3LCD projector, the pixel gap is wider than LCOS projectors, the calibrated light output and the contrast is lower than the JVC by a good margin, I measure 6900:1 on off and to finish nobody know if the 24p motion issue will be fix by Epson.

Talking about the 24p motion issue, I test more than 30 movies and found that about 20% of them as the motion issues. I try movies on my HTPC and movies on my Panasonic UHD. I also do split source and run my Sony 665 at the same time, hiding lens of one after the others. The Sony play 100% of those movies without any problems. The strange thing is I cannot tell why those 20% movies have that problem. I try every settings on the projector and nothing resolve the problem. I really dont know whats causing that but if I have to guess I will say it's something in the video processor. With certain criteria that I don't know, the projector seem to kick in a mode that make the 24p motion look really bad.
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post #15325 of 19421 Old 10-15-2016, 05:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickAVManiac View Post
The 5040 is already back to my dealer. Beside the price and the 24p motion issue, I thought the Epson was pretty good. I really like the new lens, it really help to get the best out of 1080p and the 4k eshift. The projector look sharp and can keep a non processed natural look.



But, at the end of the day, I think the price is a bit high, it's still a 3LCD projector, the pixel gap is wider than LCOS projectors, the calibrated light output and the contrast is lower than the JVC by a good margin, I measure 6900:1 on off and to finish nobody know if the 24p motion issue will be fix by Epson.



Talking about the 24p motion issue, I test more than 30 movies and found that about 20% of them as the motion issues. I try movies on my HTPC and movies on my Panasonic UHD. I also do split source and run my Sony 665 at the same time, hiding lens of one after the others. The Sony play 100% of those movies without any problems. The strange thing is I cannot tell why those 20% movies have that problem. I try every settings on the projector and nothing resolve the problem. I really dont know whats causing that but if I have to guess I will say it's something in the video processor. With certain criteria that I don't know, the projector seem to kick in a mode that make the 24p motion look really bad.


I feel the same way. I can't explain why sometimes it bothers me tremendously and other times it seems fine. Still trying to determine if it is movie dependent. You seem to have reached that conclusion scientifically.

Do you recall any specific movie that definitely showed the issue?

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post #15326 of 19421 Old 10-15-2016, 05:43 AM
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Maybe it were 24.000 movies (instead of 23.976)? 20% sounds a bit high for that, though. 24.000 is quite rare in USA. In Europe it's more common.
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post #15327 of 19421 Old 10-15-2016, 06:06 AM
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Odd, I seem to be noticing the same thing now that I'm trying to get used to watching movies without FI. I find some movies very tolerable in 24p with my LS10000, while some really strain my eyes and make it hard to get immersed unless I turn on frame interpolation.

I watched "Catch Me If You Can" two nights ago with FI turned off and it looked fine, but when I watched "Moon" last night I couldn't handle it and had to switch it on again after 5 minutes. For some reason any bright lights or bright lit objects got a very strong "strobing" or "flashing" look to them when the camera moved, something that was not the case in Catch Me If You Can during similar scenes...

Weird. Could it be the shutter speed/shutter angle of the original camera capture, or some other technical aspect of the way it was filmed that give the 24p motion this "strobing" look?
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post #15328 of 19421 Old 10-15-2016, 06:16 AM
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Kohe: that's a perfect description. You are noticing the same thing as me. Anyone who is bothered by this PLEASE call Epson support. They take all the calls very seriously and if enough people complain about the same issue they will look into it very carefully based on my experience.
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post #15329 of 19421 Old 10-15-2016, 06:33 AM
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I'll do a comparison with my LG pf1500 DLP projector today and watch those same problematic scenes from "Moon". Even if the projectors are worlds apart in picture quality, just seeing how the DLP handles the 24p motion will be interesting. If there is a difference I'll try to capture it with slow-mo as well as regular video from my iphone and share it here.
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post #15330 of 19421 Old 10-15-2016, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Thanks for the feedback @thezaks as well. I can pick up a pair of the FVHP15's for less than 1 of the PB16 Ultra's and my room is fairly large so I'd want 2 subs to replace the 2 I have now.

going to make an impulsive decision soon.
You are not comparing apples to apples. The Rythmik is not even in the same ball park, compared to the SVS,

600 watts vs 1,500 (even larger difference in the peak watts)
40mm p to p vs 95mm p to p.
16" driver vs 15" driver

It takes a lot of sub to go low with some output. This is why many of us use large subs with a lot of power. I doubt that two Rythmik's will equal one PB16 in output.
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