Projector Mini-Shootout Thread - Page 512 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #15331 of 19415 Old 10-15-2016, 06:33 AM
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I'll do a comparison with my LG pf1500 DLP projector today and watch those same problematic scenes from "Moon". Even if the projectors are worlds apart in picture quality, just seeing how the DLP handles the 24p motion will be interesting. If there is a difference I'll try to capture it with slow-mo as well as regular video from my iphone and share it here.
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post #15332 of 19415 Old 10-15-2016, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Thanks for the feedback @thezaks as well. I can pick up a pair of the FVHP15's for less than 1 of the PB16 Ultra's and my room is fairly large so I'd want 2 subs to replace the 2 I have now.

going to make an impulsive decision soon.
You are not comparing apples to apples. The Rythmik is not even in the same ball park, compared to the SVS,

600 watts vs 1,500 (even larger difference in the peak watts)
40mm p to p vs 95mm p to p.
16" driver vs 15" driver

It takes a lot of sub to go low with some output. This is why many of us use large subs with a lot of power. I doubt that two Rythmik's will equal one PB16 in output.
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post #15333 of 19415 Old 10-15-2016, 08:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the input Mike. I've been turning my attention to the PSA V3600i, I have room for at least 1, likely 2 of these and think it would be enough for my room. Due to lack of time, DIY isn't an option now. This looks like a good option for the $$.


@kohe321 - I use the PF1500 every night for watching TV before falling alseep. Sometimes it stays on all night but who cares. it's a very cool portable LED projector.

portable movie theater:



It can light up my 142" 16:9 2.8HP with a room full of lights in velvet pit.



can you post time stamps of the movies you are seeing the issue in? I have several projectors here to check, 2 JVC's, .95 Planar DLP , .65 Sharp DLP, etc.
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post #15334 of 19415 Old 10-15-2016, 08:15 AM
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Interesting discussion about this "strobing" phenomenon on 24p that I found after googling: http://www.personal-view.com/talks/d...on-in-frame/p1

It seems to be related to shutter angle/shutter speeds of the original capture. If the director of photography chooses a poor setting here and also pays little attention to how quickly he moves the camera around, perhaps from a lack of technical knowledge, this will result in an unpleasant looking movie. Also, I guess LCD based displays are more prone to showing artifacts like strobing from this kind of film capture than "faster" display technologies like DLP or plasma?

Honestly, when I watched Moon last night, I had to rub my eyes after watching just a few minutes without FI on. It would be painful to have to sit through 97 minutes of that kind of "flashing" motion. It took me straight out of the movie.

It's perhaps not a coincidence that the movie by Spielberg (Catch Me If You Can) looked more natural. The guy know the technical limitations of 24p cinema in and out and seems to film and move the camera around with these in mind.

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post #15335 of 19415 Old 10-15-2016, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

@kohe321 - I use the PF1500 every night for watching TV before falling alseep. Sometimes it stays on all night but who cares. it's a very cool portable LED projector.

can you post time stamps of the movies you are seeing the issue in? I have several projectors here to check, 2 JVC's, .95 Planar DLP , .65 Sharp DLP, etc.
I'll see if I can get back to you with precise time stamps from other movies, but for now I can say that the entire movie "Moon" was one of the worst I've seen with regards to this strobing effect. If you have this movie, just put it on and wait for any interior scenes with walls that have holes in them with a futuristic looking pattern where light is shining through. Any time the camera moves, all of this patterned light flashes and strobes like a joke.

The movie 13 Hours also seems to be have been filmed with a shallow shutter angle and looked stuttery to the point of taking me out of the movie. I was getting really annoyed by how choppy it looked throughout the entire opening sequence. After the main characters were introduced I finally gave up and turned on FI.

To give a couple of examples of movies that I recently watched that looked very good without FI on: The Godfather 1 and 2, and the Paul Thomas Anderson movie "The Master". These looked better and more "right" without FI enabled.

By the way, agree on the PF1500 - it's really a great little projector.

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post #15336 of 19415 Old 10-15-2016, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Thanks for the input Mike. I've been turning my attention to the PSA V3600i, I have room for at least 1, likely 2 of these and think it would be enough for my room. Due to lack of time, DIY isn't an option now. This looks like a good option for the $$.


@kohe321 - I use the PF1500 every night for watching TV before falling alseep. Sometimes it stays on all night but who cares. it's a very cool portable LED projector.

portable movie theater:



It can light up my 142" 16:9 2.8HP with a room full of lights in velvet pit.



can you post time stamps of the movies you are seeing the issue in? I have several projectors here to check, 2 JVC's, .95 Planar DLP , .65 Sharp DLP, etc.
I swapped out my aging SVS 12/2 Ultra for a v3600 over a year ago and it has been a beast of a sub! Along with my 3 PB13 Ultras, I have all the bass I need up to where these drop off (11-12hz in my room). If you decide to go this route, I think you will be pleased.
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post #15337 of 19415 Old 10-15-2016, 01:59 PM
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We need to change the topic title to include Sub talk!

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Or unsubscribe.. We have many different topics in the shoot out thread.
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post #15339 of 19415 Old 10-15-2016, 02:23 PM
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Ok then unsubscribing

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post #15340 of 19415 Old 10-15-2016, 09:38 PM
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If watching a 3D ISO on a JVC projector can you turn off 3D like you can on a tv to watch it in 2D? If so how? I tried changing the 3D format and there is a 2D option but it didn't do anything.
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post #15341 of 19415 Old 10-17-2016, 12:34 PM
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Or unsubscribe.. We have many different topics in the shoot out thread.
While considering subs, definitely don't leave out the JTR speaker line. Their captivator 4000ulf would absolutely blow your mind. Most can easily get away with a single one of them, but if you are considering a pair, that would just help to improve room interaction and smooth the bass out a little more. It's a little more coin, but a good bit more sub.
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post #15342 of 19415 Old 10-18-2016, 09:45 AM
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( @gnolivos )

So I have done quite a bit of reading about the issue of the "strobing effect" that some movies show more than others at 24p, and also done quite a bit of testing on my own. Here's what I've found.

It's a mix of several things.

First and foremost, how the movie was filmed is probably the biggest aspect of it. If the director of photography has used a shallow shutter angle (quick shutter speed) to capture the movie in order to make it look as crisp as possible, then every frame - even frames showing motion - will have very little blur in them, and be clear and defined. It's still obviously only 24 frames a second, but since the shutter is open for a shorter period of time during capture than normal, not a lot of light is allowed to "paint" the digital censor or physical film inside the camera, and so naturally when the camera moves, each of the 24 frames will stand out more as there is no natural "blending" in the frames that will help alleviate the feeling of jumping from one frame to the other.

The "strobing" effect is the above combined with the much higher light output and intra-scene contrast of home projection/TVs compared to most professional cinemas. To illustrate with words, if you have a dark scene with a very high contrast light in it (like headlights on a car driving at night), and this scene is also filmed with a fast shutter speed, then it's only natural that this light will appear as "strobing" when it leaves frame 15 and enters frame 16, and so on. This effect is made stronger the more light output you have at your screen, as well as the darker blackfloor and higher intrascene contrast your HT/projector is capable of.

I tried to clamp the iris all the way down, and it got a lot "better" and resembled the cinema experience more. The stuttering effect was reduced. I also tried pointing a small flashlight at the sidewall to lift the blackfloor and wash out the intrascene contrast a bit more, like the exit lights do at the cinema, and the stuttering got further alleviated to the point where it felt exactly like how it does at the cinema.

After comparing the LS10000 to the LG PF1500, there was no difference. When I brightness matched them at my screen, both showed the same amount of strobing effect during the same scenes in "Moon". Naturally the LS10000 has a lot better contrast performance, so the movement of contrast rich elements on screen will feel a bit more intense, but when filming in slow motion it's clear that there is no problem with parts of frames remaining in the next one, it just feels that way because of how much brighter the image in my HT is compared to a professional cinema, which makes each frame "stick" to the retina more.

So barring any fault with the projector keeping it from displaying 24p correctly, there is nothing "wrong" going on here, it's just simply the nature of 24fps, and 24fps when filmed with a fast shutter speed. That is why some movies feel less strenous to the eyes than others, which would be the ones filmed in a way that allows a bit of motion blur in frames depicting motion that will help the eyes between frame transitions...

Luckily Frame Interpolation exists so we can use it in movies that feel too choppy in native 24p.
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post #15343 of 19415 Old 10-18-2016, 10:00 AM
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Projector Mini-Shootout Thread

@kohe321

Thanks this is very useful information, and in fact coincides with my theory of why some movies look worse than others in 24p. But you have a much more scientific approach. I also clamped my iris a couple of weeks back and noticed an improvement. My old projector must be waaaay dimmer and much less contrast with a raised black floor, because it never ever bothered me in 8 years. Thanks again!
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post #15344 of 19415 Old 10-18-2016, 01:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by RickAVManiac View Post
Talking about the 24p motion issue, I test more than 30 movies and found that about 20% of them as the motion issues. I try movies on my HTPC and movies on my Panasonic UHD. I also do split source and run my Sony 665 at the same time, hiding lens of one after the others. The Sony play 100% of those movies without any problems. The strange thing is I cannot tell why those 20% movies have that problem. I try every settings on the projector and nothing resolve the problem. I really dont know whats causing that but if I have to guess I will say it's something in the video processor. With certain criteria that I don't know, the projector seem to kick in a mode that make the 24p motion look really bad.

kohe321 - I have that movie and will take a closer look on several projectors I have here. I'd still like to know more specifically regarding the 5040 based on Rick's comments above. Running a split source and not seeing the issues on Sony. There still may be more to this topic.
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post #15345 of 19415 Old 10-18-2016, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
kohe321 - I have that movie and will take a closer look on several projectors I have here. I'd still like to know more specifically regarding the 5040 based on Rick's comments above. Running a split source and not seeing the issues on Sony. There still may be more to this topic.
Great! Looking forward to reading what you think after taking a look.

I agree, there might still be more to this. Would be cool if owners of the 5040 could do some tests to see if it has problems with 24p. For one they could do this 24p test from Rtings.com, the download is under the paragraph "Judder-Free 24p": http://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/motion/24p

Otherwise it could be interesting to see a short slow-motion clip of a panning scene through the 5040. Any problems of dropped frames, "frame bleed" or other anomalies should be easy to spot this way. The new iphones can do slow-motion capture, and I assume many other new phones have similar capabilities as well.

I did this short slow-mo video of my LS10000 during a panning scene in the opening of the movie 13 Hours. Easy to see that each frame is clear and that it follows the 24fps rhythm without hiccups.


Last edited by kohe321; 10-18-2016 at 01:47 PM.
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post #15346 of 19415 Old 10-18-2016, 06:59 PM
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Not sure the new benq 4K machines have had much discussion,

We are having a local airing over my way,

http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/topi...-20th-october/

Looks to be two models in the w8000 and the w11000

And certainly likes like kind of thing that are signs that benq are back !

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post #15347 of 19415 Old 10-18-2016, 09:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Not sure the new benq 4K machines have had much discussion,

We are having a local airing over my way,

http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/topi...-20th-october/

Looks to be two models in the w8000 and the w11000

And certainly likes like kind of thing that are signs that benq are back !
Help us get excited over this....

W11000 - single .67 panel and no mention of WCG or HDR capabilities. 65 MS so not as gamer friendly as the Sony and Epson models.

Kraine's W8000 native contrast measurements were brutal, near business class projector #'s.





I like my .65 Sharp DLP for 3D and the .95 Planar for 2D. i couldn't see spending that kind of $$ for either BenQ model today.
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post #15348 of 19415 Old 10-19-2016, 03:34 AM
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Help us get excited over this....

W11000 - single .67 panel and no mention of WCG or HDR capabilities. 65 MS so not as gamer friendly as the Sony and Epson models.

Kraine's W8000 native contrast measurements were brutal, near business class projector #'s.




I like my .65 Sharp DLP for 3D and the .95 Planar for 2D. i couldn't see spending that kind of $$ for either BenQ model today.
oh i dont think i can do much to help but the sounds ...

... just sharing for those that might have some benq love... i've long lost on the brand especially once they went cheap cheerful...

I do hope some form of return here .... one can only hope of better things to come

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post #15349 of 19415 Old 10-19-2016, 04:45 AM
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I do hope some form of return here .... one can only hope of better things to come
I'll believe it when I see it.

Wake me up when there's a new version of the Planar 8150, ie a DLP that's truly state-of-the-art/current, and rock solid in all respects (especially contrast).
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post #15350 of 19415 Old 10-19-2016, 07:26 AM
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Those of you with the strobing effect that may be being caused by the image being too bright, you could try an ND2 filter to dim the image down further. Ideally you'd need a light meter to measure what you have so you can decide if the filter will work for you or not.

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Those of you with the strobing effect that may be being caused by the image being too bright, you could try an ND2 filter to dim the image down further. Ideally you'd need a light meter to measure what you have so you can decide if the filter will work for you or not.
For most the 16 step manual iris in the JVC works perfectly. You would need a really small screen with positive gain to need a ND2 filter to get the right brightness, -15 on the iris in low lamp on a normal screen around 1.0 gain is not to bright.
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post #15352 of 19415 Old 10-19-2016, 12:17 PM
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For most the 16 step manual iris in the JVC works perfectly. You would need a really small screen with positive gain to need a ND2 filter to get the right brightness, -15 on the iris in low lamp on a normal screen around 1.0 gain is not to bright.

I agree - but I was talking about the Epson since they were mostly the people having the problem, but if image brightness is still a problem with the JVCs, I would assume they would have the iris stepped down anyway and it was still a problem. If it was still a problem an ND may still be useful.

The X5000 with the iris at -15 is still too bright on a 3m wide screen IIRC (on a new lamp), though without measuring I don't know if it would reduce the fL too much or not. When I saw it, that was my first thought to try and improve the black level.

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Who says Cameron is "right" and why do we care about him so much - lol!

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I agree - but I was talking about the Epson since they were mostly the people having the problem, but if image brightness is still a problem with the JVCs, I would assume they would have the iris stepped down anyway and it was still a problem. If it was still a problem an ND may still be useful.

The X5000 with the iris at -15 is still too bright on a 3m wide screen IIRC (on a new lamp), though without measuring I don't know if it would reduce the fL too much or not. When I saw it, that was my first thought to try and improve the black level.
The Epson is not too bright for normal screens in the lowest mode.

I calibrated a RS400 on a 3.5m wide 1.0 gain screen a while ago and to get the best contrast and and bright enough picture I ended on iris -7 and high lamp to get a brightness at 14fl. So I hardly think it is to bríght on a 3m wide screen with iris at -15 and low mode if the screen is unity gain.
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post #15354 of 19415 Old 10-19-2016, 12:37 PM
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That's why I suggested a light meter would be useful

Regardless, if an image is too bright as has been spoken about, an ND filter can still be useful can't it, and not everyone here has their projectors calibrated so brightness can be a problem in some modes.
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Who says Cameron is "right" and why do we care about him so much - lol!

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post #15355 of 19415 Old 10-19-2016, 12:42 PM
 
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That's why I suggested a light meter would be useful

Regardless, if an image is too bright as has been spoken about, an ND filter can still be useful can't it, and not everyone here has their projectors calibrated so brightness can be a problem in some modes.
I agree 100% on that and some also like a much dimmer picture than 14-16fl.

Personally I like a brighter picture and normally calibrate my RS600 to 18fl and I ended up with iris at -8 on my 3.2m wide 2.35:1 1.0 gain screen and -12 in 16x9 mode with the zoom method in high lamp.

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post #15356 of 19415 Old 10-19-2016, 12:51 PM
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I agree 100% on that and some also like a much dimmer picture than 14-16fl.
Indeed - I used to prefer 12fL or less when DVD was all we had, and still like that level as I find it more 'cinematic', though I can see the draw for brighter images.

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Personally I like a brighter picture and normally calibrate my RS600 to 18fl and I ended up with iris at -8 on my 3.2m wide 2.35:1 1.0 gain screen and -12 in 16x9 mode with the zoom method in high lamp.
I think Joel Silver recommends 20fL for BD and less for DVD.

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Who says Cameron is "right" and why do we care about him so much - lol!

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Indeed - I used to prefer 12fL or less when DVD was all we had, and still like that level as I find it more 'cinematic', though I can see the draw for brighter images.
With the RS600 I get around 75-100000:1 and really good ANSI with my settings and get much more realistic bright scenes than 10-12fl and still killer black levels.
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post #15358 of 19415 Old 10-19-2016, 01:08 PM
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On my RS4810, I prefer between 11-12 ftL and like that cinematic look (softer whites, deeper black, etc.). My 2:35:1 ST100 screen is 9 feet wide. I sit about 10.5 feet back and room is painted/carpeted black. I experienced some eye strain when going above 12 ftL as I tried it on a couple of difference occasions. However, I know some people prefer the brighter look. Either way, thank God for the iris.
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post #15359 of 19415 Old 10-19-2016, 01:51 PM
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I'm not sure how many FL I have at the screen as I don't have a lightmeter, but my LS10000 is properly calibrated and projecting on a 92" 0,9 gain screen from a throw distance of 2,9m (9,5ft), and the iris is at -7 in eco-mode. Anyone have a rough estimation of how many FL this should be?

The room is completely treated in black and 100% light controlled, by the way.
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post #15360 of 19415 Old 10-19-2016, 01:57 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kohe321 View Post
I'm not sure how many FL I have at the screen as I don't have a lightmeter, but my LS10000 is properly calibrated and projecting on a 92" 0,9 gain screen from a throw distance of 2,9m (9,5ft), and the iris is at -7 in eco-mode. Anyone have a rough estimation of how many FL this should be?

The room is completely treated in black and 100% light controlled, by the way.
If it is Gorm who calibrated the unit and you gave him your preferences I would guess he calibrated at 14-16fl. Just ask him at AVForum.
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