Projector Mini-Shootout Thread - Page 581 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #17401 of 19605 Old 07-14-2017, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by TheronB View Post
You are ripping 4K already?

My RPi3 handles full Blu-ray isos and 3D isos perfectly.

Hopefully they have HDMI 2.0+ next version.
The second I am able to do so, I will be, yes.

I will not buy hardware that can not support 4k video, that would be nearsighted IMO.

The Zidoo apparently can play 4k HDR video and has a full 18gbps HDMI board, for $110 this is a damn winner as long as there are no glaring issues.

Its a super shame it doesnt have the licence from Netflix to run 4K Netflix content and HDR though, I hear they would have had to pay big dollars to get that license.

Regarding the Pi, what OS are you running on it? I dont (ever) use linux so that leaves Windows which is not free... What case are you using for it? Or are you just laying the bare circuit board down on a table?

$35 and the time involved in getting an OS installed and set up, and installing it into a case becomes a moot point very quickly for the Pi and I would much rather get a polished mini system instead.

EDIT - Reading more into the Zidoo it seems like its running Kodi 16.1! This is getting even better. Hopefully that means I can still use the addons and have it talk to my Philips Hue system.

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post #17402 of 19605 Old 07-14-2017, 10:48 PM
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Zombie, it would be great if in your testing you can compare the 3D ISO pattern test and see if the crosstalk or lack thereof is the same on the Dune vs the Zidoo...

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post #17403 of 19605 Old 07-14-2017, 11:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post

The Zidoo apparently can play 4k HDR video..
yes it can...

doing some preliminary testing tonight, more tomorrow since it's getting late here.

I'll check the L/R patterns and compare between the Dune and the X8.
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post #17404 of 19605 Old 07-15-2017, 03:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
The second I am able to do so, I will be, yes.

I will not buy hardware that can not support 4k video, that would be nearsighted IMO.

The Zidoo apparently can play 4k HDR video and has a full 18gbps HDMI board, for $110 this is a damn winner as long as there are no glaring issues.

Its a super shame it doesnt have the licence from Netflix to run 4K Netflix content and HDR though, I hear they would have had to pay big dollars to get that license.

Regarding the Pi, what OS are you running on it? I dont (ever) use linux so that leaves Windows which is not free... What case are you using for it? Or are you just laying the bare circuit board down on a table?

$35 and the time involved in getting an OS installed and set up, and installing it into a case becomes a moot point very quickly for the Pi and I would much rather get a polished mini system instead.

EDIT - Reading more into the Zidoo it seems like its running Kodi 16.1! This is getting even better. Hopefully that means I can still use the addons and have it talk to my Philips Hue system.
LibreELEC, which boots right into Kodi. I always buy the kits that have a 3D printed case and power supply. They work great, but only decode HD Audio to PCM if you care. I just have them on TV speakers or 2.1 systems. They are nice simple players to play content from your NAS. My 3-year-old can navigate Kodi easily. That Zidoo for $110 sounds like a good deal though. I have NUCs a few places around the house that either can't play 4K material or sound like jet engines. Once I move to 4K content, I'll definitely look at the Zidoo.
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post #17405 of 19605 Old 07-15-2017, 03:05 AM
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Projector Mini-Shootout Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheronB View Post
LibreELEC, which boots right into Kodi. I always buy the kits that have a 3D printed case and power supply. They work great, but only decode HD Audio to PCM if you care. I just have them on TV speakers or 2.1 systems. They are nice simple players to play content from your NAS. My 3-year-old can navigate Kodi easily. That Zidoo for $110 sounds like a good deal though. I have NUCs a few places around the house that either can't play 4K material or sound like jet engines. Once I move to 4K content, I'll definitely look at the Zidoo.


Ahh well Audio support via bitstream is arguably way more a deal breaker than 4k

I have a full 7.2.4 system.

At least for using this device in my theatre. For upstairs actually just having 4k support would be nice even though the Tv up there is only a Panasonic plasma which is now so old the contrast has probably dropped to 1000:1 haha

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post #17406 of 19605 Old 07-15-2017, 05:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
EDIT - Reading more into the Zidoo it seems like its running Kodi 16.1! This is getting even better. Hopefully that means I can still use the addons and have it talk to my Philips Hue system.
The Zidoo comes with two media players by default. The Home Theater APP and the ZDMC (Zidoo Media Center) the latter is based on Kodi 16.1. I only used the Home Theater App.

@zombie10k What app did you use to successfully playback 4k? Every time I try to play a demo file in 4k it never switches to 2160p -- it only plays back in 1080p60.

EDIT: I got my 4K UHD Demo to work!! This genius over here (me) uninstalled ZDMC because the Home Theater App worked so well. Apparently if you do that, it breaks UHD playback. Reinstalled ZDMC (built on kodi 17.1) and boom!! UHD playback!

Now if I can only get ALL of my UHD material to look as good as this demo: http://demo-uhd3d.com/fiche.php?cat=uhd&id=159
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post #17407 of 19605 Old 07-15-2017, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
MakeMKV sure does, its the backup button before you even click on the disc icon on the first Make MKV screen. That's still what I use for backing up 3D discs, for some reason for those I prefer the full ISO.
I think I'm missing something or a step. If MakeMKV rips ISOs directly then I'm not seeing it. I have the option to backup full disc (with or without decryption). Is there a step beyond MakeMKV that needs to happen?

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post #17408 of 19605 Old 07-15-2017, 09:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sonichart View Post
The Zidoo comes with two media players by default. The Home Theater APP and the ZDMC (Zidoo Media Center) the latter is based on Kodi 16.1. I only used the Home Theater App.

@zombie10k What app did you use to successfully playback 4k? Every time I try to play a demo file in 4k it never switches to 2160p -- it only plays back in 1080p60.

EDIT: I got my 4K UHD Demo to work!! This genius over here (me) uninstalled ZDMC because the Home Theater App worked so well. Apparently if you do that, it breaks UHD playback. Reinstalled ZDMC (built on kodi 17.1) and boom!! UHD playback!

Now if I can only get ALL of my UHD material to look as good as this demo: http://demo-uhd3d.com/fiche.php?cat=uhd&id=159

I had to change the default mode from auto to 2160 and then able to play the UHD HDR content. It still switches back to 1080/24 Frame Packed with 3D content so that was nice to see. I'm going to update the ZDMC to 17.1 now and do more testing. I was up till 5am playing with this device, it's impressive so far for such a small investment. Every 2 years these keep getting better and better. first Mede8ter (2013-2014), Dune 4K Solo (2015-2016) and now these HDMI 2.0a capable devices definitely take it to the next level with UHD HDR playback.

I can't wait until we can back up our UHD content, I have plenty of space just waiting for random access to my UHD library. Thanks again for researching this product.
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post #17409 of 19605 Old 07-15-2017, 10:32 AM
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I just took a look at the Zidoo, very interesting. How well does it work with a universal remote, especially in ZDMC/Kodi?
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post #17410 of 19605 Old 07-15-2017, 11:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by stanger89 View Post
I just took a look at the Zidoo, very interesting. How well does it work with a universal remote, especially in ZDMC/Kodi?

There is a 116 page discussion on this player on the Kodi forums, I'll post more info later tonight once I spent more time with it. Very nice so far for only $110! It does a much better job at playing UHD HDR content from storage vs. the UB900 which had issues with the audio.

https://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php...91943&page=115

for those reading, this is the product we are discussing:

https://www.zidoo.tv/Product/index/m...McQ%3D%3D.html



@Seegs108 - there was german review that stated the UHD65 while playing 24p content had 3:2 pulldown.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-dig...l#post54268865


Did you notice this when you had it? it may explain what Kris and Trusted reviews reported on the judder for the BenQ HT9050.

Some were stating that 1:1 was only possible in the native panel mode which isn't supported on the Optoma projectors.
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post #17411 of 19605 Old 07-15-2017, 12:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
There is a 116 page discussion on this player on the Kodi forums, I'll post more info later tonight once I spent more time with it. Very nice so far for only $110! It does a much better job at playing UHD HDR content from storage vs. the UB900 which had issues with the audio.

https://forum.kodi.tv/showthread.php...91943&page=115

for those reading, this is the product we are discussing:

https://www.zidoo.tv/Product/index/m...McQ%3D%3D.html



@Seegs108 - there was german review that stated the UHD65 while playing 24p content had 3:2 pulldown.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-dig...l#post54268865


Did you notice this when you had it? it may explain what Kris and Trusted reviews reported on the judder for the BenQ HT9050.

Some were stating that 1:1 was only possible in the native panel mode which isn't supported on the Optoma projectors.
Yes, I noticed the judder. I mentioned it in one of the threads. Possibly the UHZ65 thread. Kris Deering is seeing some odd issues with motion on the new BenQ XPR model he has in for review as well.
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post #17412 of 19605 Old 07-15-2017, 01:00 PM
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Ok now I'm interested! If it handles storage media content better than my sony x800 player i'll spring for one.

Thanks Zombie and Sonichart for bring it up!
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post #17413 of 19605 Old 07-15-2017, 01:16 PM
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Reading reports of how UHD HDR looking much better in the Kaledescape than their disc counterpart surely piques my interest when that day comes we can rip our own bought HDR disc (w/ sales receipts included) collection...can't wait!
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post #17414 of 19605 Old 07-15-2017, 01:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Yes, I noticed the judder. I mentioned it in one of the threads. Possibly the UHZ65 thread. Kris Deering is seeing some odd issues with motion on the new BenQ XPR model he has in for review as well.
what is the limitation that prevents them from running 1:1 in XPR mode? that is crazy if these projectors are stuck with 3:2 pulldown for BD content.
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post #17415 of 19605 Old 07-15-2017, 01:58 PM
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what is the limitation that prevents them from running 1:1 in XPR mode? that is crazy if these projectors are stuck with 3:2 pulldown for BD content.
That would really suck.
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post #17416 of 19605 Old 07-15-2017, 02:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Ah I got this info from Seegs impressions, he mentioned at some point it couldnt do straight 24fps 5:5.

When I think about xpr works, assuming I am thinking about it right I believe the 3:2 is necessary because projector runs out of vertical refresh due to xpr. While projector supports 120hz, after XPR I believe this is halved to 60hz - hence then requiring 3:2 pulldown for 24fps. Similar reason 3D would not work with XPR enabled.

You should be able to eliminate 24fps 3:2 pulldown at native 2716x1528 resolution, but both must be true:
1. Projector must be able to run with XPR disabled (Optomas cannot. BenQs/Acers can, and if I recall correctly Viviteks can).
2. Projector video processor must be able to support 24fps 5:5. (no idea which pjs support this with XPR disabled)
is there anything in the TI whitepapers that discusses this?
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post #17417 of 19605 Old 07-15-2017, 05:15 PM
 
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
what is the limitation that prevents them from running 1:1 in XPR mode? that is crazy if these projectors are stuck with 3:2 pulldown for BD content.
My guess is that TI is forcing 60p output so they have more time to flash colors and intraframe info via XPR. Just my guess or maybe it's an Optoma specific thing. I don't know if what Kris is seeing is the same judder that I saw. Kris described it as "motion breakdown" on the BenQ HT9050, so I don't know for sure it's the exact same issue as the judder I'm seeing.
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post #17418 of 19605 Old 07-15-2017, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
My guess is that TI is forcing 60p output so they have more time to flash colors and intraframe info via XPR. Just my guess or maybe it's an Optoma specific thing. I don't know if what Kris is seeing is the same judder that I saw. Kris described it as "motion breakdown" on the BenQ HT9050, so I don't know for sure it's the exact same issue as the judder I'm seeing.
That was my guess as well since the BenQ HT8050/9050 have similar motion weirdness reported in more than one review.

My thought was XPR has to flash twice as many frames while still being limited to the same color wheel speeds and refresh of 1080p DLP.

I couldn't find this detail in any whitepaper though, and I'm not sure if it could possibly be improved in firmware or not.

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post #17419 of 19605 Old 07-15-2017, 05:34 PM
 
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That was my guess as well since the BenQ HT8050/9050 have similar motion weirdness reported in more than one review.

My thought was XPR has to flash twice as many frames while still being limited to the same color wheel speeds and refresh of 1080p DLP.

I couldn't find this detail in any whitepaper though, and I'm not sure if it could possibly be improved in firmware or not. Probably not for 60fps - but maybe for 24fps.
I hope this issue is resolved with a firmware update. Not having proper 24p support is kind of an issue when you consider these are home theater projectors. Meaning that people intend to watch movies on them, which 99.999% of them will be 24p.
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post #17420 of 19605 Old 07-15-2017, 05:35 PM
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I hope this issue is resolved with a firmware update. Not having proper 24p support is kind of an issue when you consider these are home theater projectors. Meaning that people intend to watch movies on them, which 99.999% of them will be 24p.
Well, apparently BenQ is adding HDR and 3D according to kraine who got this from an official source. If they can do that, they may very well be able to improve motion handling as well.
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post #17421 of 19605 Old 07-15-2017, 05:49 PM
 
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Well, apparently BenQ is adding HDR and 3D according to kraine who got this from an official source. If they can do that, they may very well be able to improve motion handling as well.
It's not a given as this issue is more than likely some kind of hardware limitation due to how XPR works. As you said, even the BenQ models seem to have issues with motion.
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post #17422 of 19605 Old 07-15-2017, 07:16 PM
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It's not a given as this issue is more than likely some kind of hardware limitation due to how XPR works. As you said, even the BenQ models seem to have issues with motion.
Could also be that TI just optimized for 60p first and hasn't completed the algorithms for 24p yet.

Like I said earlier if HDR and 3D can be added in a firmware update there is a good chance motion can be improved.
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post #17423 of 19605 Old 07-15-2017, 07:37 PM - Thread Starter
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A lot of could have, may have and should haves with the models based on this panel.

going backwards on core functionality that was not an issue for years isn't a great start nor an acceptable compromise just to get some extra sharpness that DLP didn't really need to begin with.

They probably figured at this price point, no one will notice or care. juddering video during motion but wow look at that distant clock tower's detail on pause. that's how we watch movies , pixel peeping on pause.
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post #17424 of 19605 Old 07-16-2017, 01:37 AM
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A lot of could have, may have and should haves with the models based on this panel.

going backwards on core functionality that was not an issue for years isn't a great start nor an acceptable compromise just to get some extra sharpness that DLP didn't really need to begin with.

They probably figured at this price point, no one will notice or care. juddering video during motion but wow look at that distant clock tower's detail on pause. that's how we watch movies , pixel peeping on pause.
Also possible the DLPC4422 firmware just wasn't 100% done when they rolled it out this year but they knew they needed to roll something out to keep their OEMs on board and afloat. The hardware was done, but not the software for that hardware. So they ensured all of the projectors rolled out had a USB Input for FW upgrade to enable features down the line.

Don't you recall the demos of these projectors at CES 2016 where they were so unfinished that either the manuf refused to demo them, or when they did demo them it was a disaster? That wasn't that long ago.

I noticed the HT8050, HT9050 and UHD60, UHD65 all have USB inputs for firmware upgrade. It looks like the HK2288 does as well, though the manual isn't posted so I can't confirm its function for sure.

Someone also recently took delivery of the Barco Loki in the $20k+ forum and Barco told them there would be firmware updates to improve things further.

Combine this with the news from kraine that the BenQ is getting a FW updates for HDR and 3D, and my thought is that these projectors may have been rolled out unfinished. This would explain the weirdness, why 3D was strangely not included when all the TI literature says it was supported, etc. 3D, for instance, may have been supported but not actually finished yet in the firmware.

This is the controller board in all XPR projectors that's responsible for 3D and controls the color flashing, etc, that will likely be the target of the firmware updates - also says its capable of 24p video:

http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/dlpc4422.pdf

We will see, it may be these are still a work in progress. It actually makes a lot more sense, than the idea that 3D and 24p are simply unsupported when all of the literature on the hardware says it is.

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post #17425 of 19605 Old 07-16-2017, 08:55 PM - Thread Starter
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as rlburnside mentioned, unless XPR can run @ 96 or 144hz it doesn't seem likely they can avoid the 3:2 pulldown with 24p content. unless they turn off the XPR and can run 1:1 but doubt Optoma would release that as a post production item. maybe in their next release.
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post #17426 of 19605 Old 07-17-2017, 08:16 AM
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what is the limitation that prevents them from running 1:1 in XPR mode? that is crazy if these projectors are stuck with 3:2 pulldown for BD content.
The BenQ can turn XPR off, you just go to the "Silent" mode. Downside is the only color gamut you can run in this mode is DCi. In fact, EVERY picture mode for the BenQ is DCi (and non adjustable) other than Cinema. The BenQ has a refresh rate of 120Hz, so you're doing 5-5. I am not seeing any unusual judder.

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post #17427 of 19605 Old 07-17-2017, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
Also possible the DLPC4422 firmware just wasn't 100% done when they rolled it out this year but they knew they needed to roll something out to keep their OEMs on board and afloat. The hardware was done, but not the software for that hardware. So they ensured all of the projectors rolled out had a USB Input for FW upgrade to enable features down the line.

Don't you recall the demos of these projectors at CES 2016 where they were so unfinished that either the manuf refused to demo them, or when they did demo them it was a disaster? That wasn't that long ago.

I noticed the HT8050, HT9050 and UHD60, UHD65 all have USB inputs for firmware upgrade. It looks like the HK2288 does as well, though the manual isn't posted so I can't confirm its function for sure.

Someone also recently took delivery of the Barco Loki in the $20k+ forum and Barco told them there would be firmware updates to improve things further.

Combine this with the news from kraine that the BenQ is getting a FW updates for HDR and 3D, and my thought is that these projectors may have been rolled out unfinished. This would explain the weirdness, why 3D was strangely not included when all the TI literature says it was supported, etc. 3D, for instance, may have been supported but not actually finished yet in the firmware.

This is the controller board in all XPR projectors that's responsible for 3D and controls the color flashing, etc, that will likely be the target of the firmware updates - also says its capable of 24p video:

http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/dlpc4422.pdf

We will see, it may be these are still a work in progress. It actually makes a lot more sense, than the idea that 3D and 24p are simply unsupported when all of the literature on the hardware says it is.

I think you will be waiting a long long long time. I seriously doubt that 3D and 24p support can be added via firmware. First I doubt that any of these projectors even have RF emitter hardware built-in. Therefore you would need to at least purchase an aftermarket RF emitter to be plugged in and synced to the projector. Second none of the Optima's or BenQ projectors advertise 3D support, and if you look at the way they have completely overblown the advertising specs for these models on their respective websites why wouldn't they have mentioned possible future 3D support if that were the plan.

Since 3D isn't supported for resolutions above 1080p and since these TI hybrid projectors aren't native 1080p projectors, I think it is safe to assume that unless it says it will support 3D then don't get your hopes up that it will, especially via a firmware upgrade.
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post #17428 of 19605 Old 07-17-2017, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by GregCh View Post
I think you will be waiting a long long long time. I seriously doubt that 3D and 24p support can be added via firmware. First I doubt that any of these projectors even have RF emitter hardware built-in. Therefore you would need to at least purchase an aftermarket RF emitter to be plugged in and synced to the projector. Second none of the Optima's or BenQ projectors advertise 3D support, and if you look at the way they have completely overblown the advertising specs for these models on their respective websites why wouldn't they have mentioned possible future 3D support if that were the plan.

Since 3D isn't supported for resolutions above 1080p and since these TI hybrid projectors aren't native 1080p projectors, I think it is safe to assume that unless it says it will support 3D then don't get your hopes up that it will, especially via a firmware upgrade.
Kraine says he has confirmation from an official source the BenQ HT8050/HT9050 are getting HDR and 3D via firmware by year end.

DLP does not need an emitter. It has a technology called DLP link that signals the glasses via a rapid flashing in the video signal (which is received by the glasses but blocked from you seeing through color correction.) I have an image of this in action if you are curious. This is how the BenQ W7000/W7500 do 3D as they also have no emitter.

Thus is it very plausible HDR and 3D could be added via firmware.
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post #17429 of 19605 Old 07-17-2017, 10:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Watch DLP Link with the ZD201's vs. IR/RF on the same exact projector.. always prefer the IR/RF 3D image.

Benq cheaped out for years on adding the 3 pin VESA port forcing users into using DLP Link.

I wouldn't hold my breathe waiting for Optoma to make these changes (3D / proper 24P) - maybe in a future product release.
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post #17430 of 19605 Old 07-17-2017, 10:22 AM
 
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
Watch DLP Link with the ZD201's vs. IR/RF on the same exact projector.. always prefer the IR/RF 3D image.

Benq cheaped out for years on adding the 3 pin VESA port forcing users into using DLP Link.

I wouldn't hold my breathe waiting for Optoma to make these changes (3D / proper 24P) - maybe in a future product release.
Ruined thinks his glasses fix the issue with DLP link. The thing he doesn't realize is that it could look better if there was an RF/IR method to sync to the glasses. There is loss of image quality on screen (contrast), so the "source" on screen to view through the glasses is also getting a less than optimal image compared to the one you could be getting via IR/RF. 3D will always look better if there was more contrast on screen to begin with. Just because black looks blacker behind the glasses does not mean there's no issue. Black will always look blacker from behind the glasses no matter how the image is synced to the glasses. The difference is the amount of contrast in which you could potentially have behind the glasses and with DLP link the answer is always less.

Last edited by Seegs108; 07-17-2017 at 10:25 AM.
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