Projector Mini-Shootout Thread - Page 623 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 4903Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #18661 of 19415 Old 01-28-2018, 10:56 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Ximori's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Irvine, Ca
Posts: 1,047
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 282 Post(s)
Liked: 180
What are the chances of HDR10+ support from upcoming projectors, especially later this year?

At some point we have to stop fiddling around with different modes provided by current UHD players in dealing with static metadata and just enjoy watching. At least we already know that the next Panasonic player will support HDR10+ with its new hdx processor to allow tone-mapping frame by frame. This optimizer for sure changes the game and I'm not even sure that hdmi 2.1 is required for it.
Ximori is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #18662 of 19415 Old 01-29-2018, 06:45 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
humbland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,486
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1039 Post(s)
Liked: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
Can't wait for my $10 Draper ("reference") accuvision electric screen...
Shipping Status: Warehous Confirmation Received...

No, really I cannot. This is the first electric screen I've ever had to experiment with masking...

No MORE BLACK BARS, be gone thy black bars :P
No More Black Bars

Thanks to inspiration from forum member Craig Peer:

Simple solution really. Go with two different AR electric drop screens.
It's been one of the best additions to our HT. I'm surprised that more people don't do it???
Instead of fooling around with variable geometry masking, just add a second screen.
In 2014, Our long time 16 x 9 DaLite Cosmo Electrol HP 2.8 screen got a new playmate. An Elite Cinetension 2.35:1 "scope" electric drop screen. They share their playtime with a Sharp Z30K (lens memory). Push a few buttons and NO MORE BLACK BARS. Easy peasy...
Craig Peer and coderguy like this.
humbland is online now  
post #18663 of 19415 Old 01-29-2018, 09:35 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Gary Lightfoot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 6,432
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1300 Post(s)
Liked: 1053
I'd need three screens for my set up, so instead I'm doing a kinda similar thing but with a fixed 16:9 screen that has top and bottom masking attached so that I run it as a 2.40 CIH set up 99.9% of the time. I only remove the top and bottom masking for IMAX presentations (instead of pulling down a second screen). That way all aspect ratios are correctly presented - scope is wider and more immersive than 16:9 and IMAX is taller and more immersive than scope (and of course, is both wider and taller than 16:9). I could fit side masking for 16:9 movies but as I sit at 2xSH back, 16:9 occupies something like a 47 degree horizontal field of view so side masking isn't really needed. Black levels are good enough to not make it an issue but it would be simple enough to knock up some AT panels to fit for 16:9 if it was.

And of course, it works so well for me that I wonder why everybody isn't doing it that way
coderguy likes this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elmalloc
Who says Cameron is "right" and why do we care about him so much - lol!

I trust Gary Lightfoot more than James Cameron.
Gary Lightfoot is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #18664 of 19415 Old 01-29-2018, 10:03 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,926
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2345 Post(s)
Liked: 1270
Quote:
Originally Posted by humbland View Post
No More Black Bars

Thanks to inspiration from forum member Craig Peer:

Simple solution really. Go with two different AR electric drop screens.
It's been one of the best additions to our HT. I'm surprised that more people don't do it???
Instead of fooling around with variable geometry masking, just add a second screen.
In 2014, Our long time 16 x 9 DaLite Cosmo Electrol HP 2.8 screen got a new playmate. An Elite Cinetension 2.35:1 "scope" electric drop screen. They share their playtime with a Sharp Z30K (lens memory). Push a few buttons and NO MORE BLACK BARS. Easy peasy...
My HP screen has minor damage from moving it so many times (I barely notice). The HP material itself hides most of the damage oddly enough. Still it's just enough damage that it will need to be replaced too eventually.

I'd prefer one screen, but I'll look around into other methods after I first test just using one electric screen.

My idea was use the electric for both 16:9 and 2.35, and create an unmovable mask at the top. Hence you just move the screen up and down to change aspect ratios. Never tried this so it's just a theory.

I will use lens shift memory to match the movement height of the 2.35. The key is I have to get everything wrapped in velvet and so dark that this does not become an eye-sore. But getting the wall near the screen area as dark as possible is a good endeavor anyhow.

**Updated Projector Calculator Released NOV 2017**
-- www.webprojectorcalculator.com --
coderguy is online now  
post #18665 of 19415 Old 01-29-2018, 10:17 AM
Member
 
jj-34's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Montpellier, France
Posts: 193
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 116 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
My idea was use the electric for both 16:9 and 2.35, and create an unmovable mask at the top. Hence you just move the screen up and down to change aspect ratios. Never tried this so it's just a theory.
I will use lens shift memory to match the movement height of the 2.35

That's the way I do it and we are sitting at 1.4 screen width. The only drawback is that in 2.35 format the vision sight is higher, not a lot but still noticeable and can be a discomfort to some, on the other hand as the screen is AT the center speaker is in a better position.
coderguy likes this.
jj-34 is online now  
post #18666 of 19415 Old 01-29-2018, 10:26 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,926
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2345 Post(s)
Liked: 1270
Quote:
Originally Posted by jj-34 View Post
That's the way I do it and we are sitting at 1.4 screen width. The only drawback is that in 2.35 format the vision sight is higher, not a lot but still noticeable and can be a discomfort to some, on the other hand as the screen is AT the center speaker is in a better position.
Thanks for the info... I considered that and will test to see how bothersome. Will probably start the 16:9 very low, since I kind of got used to ignoring the reclining position being in the way of my eye sight.

**Updated Projector Calculator Released NOV 2017**
-- www.webprojectorcalculator.com --
coderguy is online now  
post #18667 of 19415 Old 01-29-2018, 10:33 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
humbland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,486
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1039 Post(s)
Liked: 289
Everything involves some sort of compromise.
However, with two different AR screens, you can fit the largest possible image into your field of view, and have the optimum viewing angle with the recliner in the reclined position
Having your cake and eating it too...Interesting in that I investigated the available variable masking schemes. However, at the end of the day, the second scope electric was significantly cheaper, and involved the fewest compromises (see above).
One disclosure: To implement it effectively, you need to have a PJ with lens memory. I've been waiting for a 4K DLP for years now, but the ealy models lack lens memory...Those of you with deeper pockets (and JVCs) have this base covered already...
humbland is online now  
post #18668 of 19415 Old 01-29-2018, 10:42 AM
Member
 
jj-34's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Montpellier, France
Posts: 193
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 116 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
Thanks for the info... I considered that and will test to see how bothersome. Will probably start the 16:9 very low, since I kind of got used to ignoring the reclining position being in the way of my eye sight.
We tried this too, to lower the 16/9 so that the 2.35 is just a little above our horizontal line of sight, but eventually went back to having the 16/9 in the more comfortable position.
The fact is that the much bigger height of the 16/9 makes it more prone to discomfort if not at the right height where the 2.35 being vertically narrower it is easier even if slightly "too" high.
jj-34 is online now  
post #18669 of 19415 Old 01-31-2018, 07:19 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
madshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 7,570
Mentioned: 456 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2328 Post(s)
Liked: 2967
Great news!

Just a heads-up for those of you guys who like to rip their (legally owned!) physical movie discs to their home server: It seems the next AnyDVD HD version will support UHD Blu-Ray discs the same way it has always supported 1080p Blu-Rays!

Little caveat: It only works with "UHD friendly" drives, but not with official UHD drives, and the "UHD friendly" drives are being phased out, so if you're interested in this, now would be a good time to hurry up and get an "UHD friendly" drive (or 2, just to be safe), as long as it's still possible. Also, redfox says, there's always a chance the powers that be could find a tricky way to stop this all from working in the future. So there's no guarantee, but for a while it's going to work. And it's even free for existing AnyDVD HD customers.
VideoGrabber and zombie10k like this.
madshi is offline  
post #18670 of 19415 Old 01-31-2018, 09:03 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
stanger89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Marion, IA
Posts: 23,130
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4156 Post(s)
Liked: 2384
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Great news!

Just a heads-up for those of you guys who like to rip their (legally owned!) physical movie discs to their home server: It seems the next AnyDVD HD version will support UHD Blu-Ray discs the same way it has always supported 1080p Blu-Rays!
That is absolutely awesome!

Quote:
Little caveat: It only works with "UHD friendly" drives, but not with official UHD drives, and the "UHD friendly" drives are being phased out, so if you're interested in this, now would be a good time to hurry up and get an "UHD friendly" drive (or 2, just to be safe), as long as it's still possible.
Well, I've already got two, and I'll take what I can get.
stanger89 is offline  
post #18671 of 19415 Old 01-31-2018, 10:17 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
zombie10k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 12,698
Mentioned: 158 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5224 Post(s)
Liked: 5456
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Great news!

Just a heads-up for those of you guys who like to rip their (legally owned!) physical movie discs to their home server: It seems the next AnyDVD HD version will support UHD Blu-Ray discs the same way it has always supported 1080p Blu-Rays!

Little caveat: It only works with "UHD friendly" drives, but not with official UHD drives, and the "UHD friendly" drives are being phased out, so if you're interested in this, now would be a good time to hurry up and get an "UHD friendly" drive (or 2, just to be safe), as long as it's still possible. Also, redfox says, there's always a chance the powers that be could find a tricky way to stop this all from working in the future. So there's no guarantee, but for a while it's going to work. And it's even free for existing AnyDVD HD customers.
That is great news, I have 3 UHD friendly drives, that should last a while. 48TB synology is getting a work out

I recently started experimenting with MadVR and the tone mapping on my HTPC (7700K + GTX 1080ti) and seeing a similar color shift that @Javs posted in the JVC thread. Is the MadVR thread on Doom9 the main area to post on this topic? Thx!!

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post55590490
zombie10k is online now  
post #18672 of 19415 Old 01-31-2018, 10:58 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
madshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 7,570
Mentioned: 456 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2328 Post(s)
Liked: 2967
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
That is great news, I have 3 UHD friendly drives, that should last a while. 48TB synology is getting a work out

I recently started experimenting with MadVR and the tone mapping on my HTPC (7700K + GTX 1080ti) and seeing a similar color shift that @Javs posted in the JVC thread. Is the MadVR thread on Doom9 the main area to post on this topic? Thx!!

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post55590490
Nobody in the doom9 thread has compared about color shifts yet. So maybe AVSForum is a better place to discuss that, since there are now seemingly two users (Javs and you) who see a problem with madVR's tone mapping. However, it doesn't make sense to discuss this in different AVSForum threads. Not sure, should we create a new thread, or pick one of the existing threads to discuss that?
madshi is offline  
post #18673 of 19415 Old 01-31-2018, 11:34 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
zombie10k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 12,698
Mentioned: 158 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5224 Post(s)
Liked: 5456
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Nobody in the doom9 thread has compared about color shifts yet. So maybe AVSForum is a better place to discuss that, since there are now seemingly two users (Javs and you) who see a problem with madVR's tone mapping. However, it doesn't make sense to discuss this in different AVSForum threads. Not sure, should we create a new thread, or pick one of the existing threads to discuss that?
Thanks, I didn't want to repeat the info in case there was already a current discussion. I'll update with additional info once I have a chance to compare it to the custom curve i'm running on the RS600. Thanks for your efforts with the tone mapping!
zombie10k is online now  
post #18674 of 19415 Old 01-31-2018, 11:35 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
madshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 7,570
Mentioned: 456 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2328 Post(s)
Liked: 2967
In which thread? This one of the other one you linked to (with Javs' report)?
madshi is offline  
post #18675 of 19415 Old 01-31-2018, 11:41 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
zombie10k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 12,698
Mentioned: 158 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5224 Post(s)
Liked: 5456
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
In which thread? This one of the other one you linked to (with Javs' report)?
I'll update here since we have a number of HTPC fans on the 3K+ forum.

@stanger89 can you pls check that scene in Mad Max (00:20:12 frame) which Javs demo'd in the link above? thx!
zombie10k is online now  
post #18676 of 19415 Old 01-31-2018, 12:39 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
madshi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 7,570
Mentioned: 456 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2328 Post(s)
Liked: 2967
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs
Im getting a colour shift using MadVR's tone mapping too. This time for me I notice it in the reds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs
Thanks, thats good to know the Oppo does seem to be outputting the right colour then.

And also good to know there does seem to be an issue at least with my MadVR setup, I am sure its something that will be worked out eventually. Those white blotches, those are something I do take issue with, and why I don't use the MadVR tone mapping right now. The colour shift is also annoying, but yeah, it is what it is.
Some things to think about:

1) The only way to truely know how the HDR Blu-Ray is supposed to look like is to play it on a true 10,000 Nits BT.2020 display. (Ok, a 4,000 Nits DCI-P3 display would also do, if the combination of player and display are clever enough to *clip* both luminance and colors, because tone mapping is in this case not necessary, because the movie's actual data fits into 4,000 Nits DCI-P3.)

2) Let's say you have a highly saturated red color which the HDR Blu-Ray has encoded with 4,000 Nits. And your display actually *can* do 4,000 Nits. No problems, right? Actually yes, BIG problem, because the display peak Nits capability is for white, not for red. So what should a tone mapping algorithm do now? Should it make the pixel white? It could achieve the wanted 4,000 Nits, but the pixel's color/saturation would be completely lost. Or should the tone mapping maintain the full saturation/color, and lose all the Nits it can't handle? Then a significant amout of highlight punch & detail would get lost. So what should we do? In madVR you can choose. See option "fix too bright & saturated pixels by".

3) Let's say the studio uses a sub-optimal tone mapping algorithm for their 1080p Blu-Ray. Or maybe they use a custom tone mapping algorithm to achieve a specific look, or maybe (for high profile titles) they're even tuning it for each different scene. How then can you use an 1080p Blu-Ray as a reference for a tone-mapped HDR Blu-Ray should look like?

4) Every CE manufacturer has their own tone mapping algorithm, and they all look different. So who's right and who's wrong? Who can be accepted as reference? And all the others are then judged to have color shifts?

All that said, if you're not completely happy with madVR's tone mapping results, here are a few things you could try:

A) Try different values for the "fix too bright & saturated pixels by" option. See point 2) above. There's no right or wrong setting here, unfortunately. In some scenes one setting looks better, in other scenes another.

B) You could try to turn "preserve hue" on/off in madVR, or switch between "low" and "high" quality. FWIW, "high" quality is doing the tone mapping in ICtCp, which is Dolby's preferred color space for tone mapping.

C) You can use DisplayCAL to create 3DLUTs which include HDR -> SDR conversion (tone mapping). The 3DLUTs are calculated offline, by also using the ArgyllCMS framework, IIRC, so it should be very high quality. Maybe you prefer it over what madVR's pixel shader math does? Here's a test 3DLUT you can try, which doesn't do any actual display calibration, but just does tone mapping, nothing else. Tone mapping is done to 400 Nits and BT.709 gamut by this test 3DLUT:

http://madshi.net/DisplayCal400Nits709.rar

You can enter this in the BT.2020 slot when switching madVR to "convert HDR content to SDR by using an external 3DLUT". Of course you can create any tone mapping 3DLUT you want (different nits values and gamuts) with DisplayCAL.
madshi is offline  
post #18677 of 19415 Old 01-31-2018, 12:58 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Javs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Sydney
Posts: 7,830
Mentioned: 473 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6771 Post(s)
Liked: 6388
Quote:
Originally Posted by madshi View Post
Some things to think about:

1) The only way to truely know how the HDR Blu-Ray is supposed to look like is to play it on a true 10,000 Nits BT.2020 display. (Ok, a 4,000 Nits DCI-P3 display would also do, if the combination of player and display are clever enough to *clip* both luminance and colors, because tone mapping is in this case not necessary, because the movie's actual data fits into 4,000 Nits DCI-P3.)

2) Let's say you have a highly saturated red color which the HDR Blu-Ray has encoded with 4,000 Nits. And your display actually *can* do 4,000 Nits. No problems, right? Actually yes, BIG problem, because the display peak Nits capability is for white, not for red. So what should a tone mapping algorithm do now? Should it make the pixel white? It could achieve the wanted 4,000 Nits, but the pixel's color/saturation would be completely lost. Or should the tone mapping maintain the full saturation/color, and lose all the Nits it can't handle? Then a significant amout of highlight punch & detail would get lost. So what should we do? In madVR you can choose. See option "fix too bright & saturated pixels by".

3) Let's say the studio uses a sub-optimal tone mapping algorithm for their 1080p Blu-Ray. Or maybe they use a custom tone mapping algorithm to achieve a specific look, or maybe (for high profile titles) they're even tuning it for each different scene. How then can you use an 1080p Blu-Ray as a reference for a tone-mapped HDR Blu-Ray should look like?

4) Every CE manufacturer has their own tone mapping algorithm, and they all look different. So who's right and who's wrong? Who can be accepted as reference? And all the others are then judged to have color shifts?

All that said, if you're not completely happy with madVR's tone mapping results, here are a few things you could try:

A) Try different values for the "fix too bright & saturated pixels by" option. See point 2) above. There's no right or wrong setting here, unfortunately. In some scenes one setting looks better, in other scenes another.

B) You could try to turn "preserve hue" on/off in madVR, or switch between "low" and "high" quality. FWIW, "high" quality is doing the tone mapping in ICtCp, which is Dolby's preferred color space for tone mapping.

C) You can use DisplayCAL to create 3DLUTs which include HDR -> SDR conversion (tone mapping). The 3DLUTs are calculated offline, by also using the ArgyllCMS framework, IIRC, so it should be very high quality. Maybe you prefer it over what madVR's pixel shader math does? Here's a test 3DLUT you can try, which doesn't do any actual display calibration, but just does tone mapping, nothing else. Tone mapping is done to 400 Nits and BT.709 gamut by this test 3DLUT:

http://madshi.net/DisplayCal400Nits709.rar

You can enter this in the BT.2020 slot when switching madVR to "convert HDR content to SDR by using an external 3DLUT". Of course you can create any tone mapping 3DLUT you want (different nits values and gamuts) with DisplayCAL.
Thanks Madshi. I will respond to this in some more detail today and provide images to show my results clearly. Just to nip something in the bud right now, yes I have a 1400 nit capable hdr tv to use along side my JVC. They both display MadMax in true HDR mode in an extremely comparable manner regarding highlights, and the colour of those highlights.

Ignoring the white highlights in mad Max specifically for a moment, it also appears when I view a colour clipping test pattern from the masciola suite - the colours go from saturated at the low end all the way to white on the high end, which they should stay a constant colour. I believe these two things are relsted. I will post a photo of this shortly.

I have also tried a bunch of the preserve hue combinations. I will post the differences soon. I was able to get it very close. But the colour of the highlights seemed to be compromised.

There is also a general colour shift in the image to a different hue/saturation overall. It's slight. But it was very obvious in the mad Max shot since it was a strong red. I saw the same exact colour shift on my Samsung HDR tv as the JVC.

Both are fairly well calibrated at least to a comparable state, the JVC is very well calibrated. So comparing the content on my HDR curves to the tone mapping is showing a shift in colour on both of my displays.

I have set madvr to say the display is calibrated to bt2020 and gamma 2.4, I am assuming that's the correct thing to do when I have a display I know has been calibrated to rec2020 such as my JVC? I am totally hoping this part is user error as there seems to be a few things to set up here.

Thanks, I am sure we can get to the bottom of this and I can kiss my curves goodbye.

JVC X9500 (RS620) | 120" 16:9 | Marantz AV7702 MkII | Emotiva XPA-7 | DIY Modular Towers | DIY TPL-150 Surrounds | DIY Atmos | DIY 18" Subs
-
MadVR Settings | UHD Waveform Analysis | Arve Tool Instructions + V3 Javs Curves
Javs is online now  
post #18678 of 19415 Old 01-31-2018, 02:28 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
R Harkness's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 15,120
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2753 Post(s)
Liked: 2654
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
I'd need three screens for my set up, so instead I'm doing a kinda similar thing but with a fixed 16:9 screen that has top and bottom masking attached so that I run it as a 2.40 CIH set up 99.9% of the time. I only remove the top and bottom masking for IMAX presentations (instead of pulling down a second screen). That way all aspect ratios are correctly presented - scope is wider and more immersive than 16:9 and IMAX is taller and more immersive than scope (and of course, is both wider and taller than 16:9). I could fit side masking for 16:9 movies but as I sit at 2xSH back, 16:9 occupies something like a 47 degree horizontal field of view so side masking isn't really needed. Black levels are good enough to not make it an issue but it would be simple enough to knock up some AT panels to fit for 16:9 if it was.

And of course, it works so well for me that I wonder why everybody isn't doing it that way
Tongue in cheek comment at the end noted :-)

I've been ecstatic about how my variable image size system works (4 way masking, zoom) but I'm also conscious of why others wouldn't bother. It's a lot of expense and design work. You've got to be really in to the results (or have lots of money and pay someone else to construct such a system).

I still have a projector that does black levels about as good as one can find, and all I have to do is open up my side masking for a while to remind myself of why
I appreciate it so much even with 16:9 content.

We still aren't at OLED with projectors, and the darker the room (and without masking) the more obvious this is, IMO.
R Harkness is online now  
post #18679 of 19415 Old 01-31-2018, 02:41 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Gary Lightfoot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 6,432
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1300 Post(s)
Liked: 1053
I could add side masking and probably will some day (maybe this summer), but it doesn't add anything to the image, just frames it a little better so it's not high on my list of priorities. There might be some added 'perceived' contrast, but I did add side masking (curtains) on my last scope set up and it didn't add much there for me either (with a DLP pj). I think it must be a personal thing as to how important it is for some people. It does look nicer than without of course.

The thing I did notice once was when watching some episodes of the remastered ST TOS BDs - the black level between the 4:3 and 16:9 (unused) part of the image was raised so that stuck out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elmalloc
Who says Cameron is "right" and why do we care about him so much - lol!

I trust Gary Lightfoot more than James Cameron.
Gary Lightfoot is offline  
post #18680 of 19415 Old 01-31-2018, 02:50 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
VideoGrabber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: SW Michigan
Posts: 3,053
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 522 Post(s)
Liked: 324
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
My idea was use the electric for both 16:9 and 2.35, and create an unmovable mask at the top. Hence you just move the screen up and down to change aspect ratios. Never tried this so it's just a theory.
That will work, but you'll still be 'stuck' with a CIW screen.
VideoGrabber is offline  
post #18681 of 19415 Old 01-31-2018, 03:22 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,926
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2345 Post(s)
Liked: 1270
It would have been worth it to try it for $50, but the problem is these DRAPER Closeout Screens appear to be gone, the 'in stock' at some vendors is FAKE STOCK. The MFR probably dropships, so they say 'in stock' because the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing...

My order at Provantage is stuck in processing.

So looks like my dream of a $50 109" variable height electric screen is dashed, unless I want to spend $200+ on the experiment, and I'm not sure I do, because the entire goal was to TEST and see if I want to buy $1000 electric or remain fixed.

**Updated Projector Calculator Released NOV 2017**
-- www.webprojectorcalculator.com --
coderguy is online now  
post #18682 of 19415 Old 01-31-2018, 03:45 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
VideoGrabber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: SW Michigan
Posts: 3,053
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 522 Post(s)
Liked: 324
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
My order at Provantage is stuck in processing.
Mine at Provantage went through, and arrived yesterday. And I ordered after you did. Sadly, only a tiny 92" unit was left (80x45), so that's what I got. But for 10 bucks (+shipping), I can't really complain.

[ Mine claims it shipped from Provantage (Millington, TN), to Michigan. 3-days, via FedEx. So maybe there's hope for you yet? ]
VideoGrabber is offline  
post #18683 of 19415 Old 01-31-2018, 03:55 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
coderguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 13,926
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2345 Post(s)
Liked: 1270
Quote:
Originally Posted by VideoGrabber View Post
Mine at Provantage went through, and arrived yesterday. And I ordered after you did. Sadly, only a tiny 92" unit was left (80x45), so that's what I got. But for 10 bucks (+shipping), I can't really complain.

[ Mine claims it shipped from Provantage (Millington, TN), to Michigan. 3-days, via FedEx. So maybe there's hope for you yet? ]
Cool, it's a lesson in learning how to be happy for someone else even when I get duff'd

Well, the 109" said "1 in stock", and I ordered the last one. I think that was the issue.

Let me know what you think of the material.

I am going to call Provantage in a minute and see...

**Updated Projector Calculator Released NOV 2017**
-- www.webprojectorcalculator.com --
coderguy is online now  
post #18684 of 19415 Old 02-01-2018, 04:21 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
stanger89's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Marion, IA
Posts: 23,130
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4156 Post(s)
Liked: 2384
Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
I'll update here since we have a number of HTPC fans on the 3K+ forum.

@stanger89 can you pls check that scene in Mad Max (00:20:12 frame) which Javs demo'd in the link above? thx!
I'll have to see when I get a chance (and motivation), I'm kind of slammed at work and generally just want to watch stuff when I get time
stanger89 is offline  
post #18685 of 19415 Old 02-01-2018, 06:14 AM
Member
 
jj-34's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Montpellier, France
Posts: 193
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 116 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
I could add side masking and probably will some day (maybe this summer), but it doesn't add anything to the image, just frames it a little better so it's not high on my list of priorities. There might be some added 'perceived' contrast, but I did add side masking (curtains) on my last scope set up and it didn't add much there for me either (with a DLP pj). I think it must be a personal thing as to how important it is for some people. It does look nicer than without of course.
Indeed side masking isn't that much important as there are no side black bars as such, no projection there as it is outside the image window, only room reflections.
On my electric DIY AT screen I have a black accoustic backing to improve contrast and I have it wider by 5 cm on each side, so it acts as poor man's side masking by the way.
Of course black velvet would have been much better but it's too thick to roll up smoothly.

Last edited by jj-34; 02-01-2018 at 06:45 AM.
jj-34 is online now  
post #18686 of 19415 Old 02-01-2018, 07:46 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 25,301
Mentioned: 231 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11647 Post(s)
Liked: 9211
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
It would have been worth it to try it for $50, but the problem is these DRAPER Closeout Screens appear to be gone, the 'in stock' at some vendors is FAKE STOCK. The MFR probably dropships, so they say 'in stock' because the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing...

My order at Provantage is stuck in processing.

So looks like my dream of a $50 109" variable height electric screen is dashed, unless I want to spend $200+ on the experiment, and I'm not sure I do, because the entire goal was to TEST and see if I want to buy $1000 electric or remain fixed.
I know several people that have used electric screens and a fixed top panel or a fixed bottom panel, for masking 16:9 to scope, by just raising or lowering the screen. It is a proven system. I like a fixed CIH frame, because it is easy to mask and it allows you to change out fabrics. My screen is curved with power masking and I am on my 4th fabric. Currently using Screen Acoustics V6 AT fabric.

One guy used a fixed velvet panel that hung below his screen housing. With screen fully lowered, the panel and the screen masking lined up and gave him 16:9. He would raise the screen to get a scope image size. Advantage of this method, is you can get the velvet masking panel very close to the screen. He would never fully retract the screen, because the weight bar would hit the masking panel.

Know of another guy, that had a lower velvet covered panel. He would lower screen until edge of screen lined up with his masking panel. That would give him 16:9. He would lower the screen fully to get scope. This method, the masking is not as close to the screen, due to masking bar width, but still works very well. No danger when fully opening or close the screen, since it can't hit on anything.
VideoGrabber and coderguy like this.

Last edited by Mike Garrett; 02-01-2018 at 07:53 AM.
Mike Garrett is offline  
post #18687 of 19415 Old 02-01-2018, 07:54 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Mike Garrett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 25,301
Mentioned: 231 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11647 Post(s)
Liked: 9211
Send a message via Skype™ to Mike Garrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by jj-34 View Post
Indeed side masking isn't that much important as there are no side black bars as such, no projection there as it is outside the image window, only room reflections.
On my electric DIY AT screen I have a black accoustic backing to improve contrast and I have it wider by 5 cm on each side, so it acts as poor man's side masking by the way.
Of course black velvet would have been much better but it's too thick to roll up smoothly.
It is still unlit screen. Once you have tried side masking on a CIH screen, I doubt you ever want to go back to no masking.
Mike Garrett is offline  
post #18688 of 19415 Old 02-01-2018, 08:48 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
cardoski's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Beyond The Wall.
Posts: 4,759
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2524 Post(s)
Liked: 2803
Just wanted to report that I am going on my 6th bulb on my JVCX500R, I was one of the first to get this PJ and I have over 10 000 hrs on this beauty. I am going to wait until I can get a laser based PJ with similar or better contrast for sub 10grand. May be a while until JVC puts one out but I have no complaints about my X500, throws a fantastic image and I still have to upgrade to a 4k Disc player and try some of the custom gama curves out there. I should be good for at least another 2-3 years.

My only complaints with this PJ is I want more lumens, even in my 100% velvet pit it could use a bit more umph in the brightness department.
khactuyen likes this.

Listening with Focal Elex headphones, Topping DSD Dac, SENCUN-audio tube preamp with tone control and Little Dot hybrid tube amp with GE tubes.

Watching in a room ensconced in velvet.
cardoski is online now  
post #18689 of 19415 Old 02-01-2018, 08:51 AM
Member
 
jj-34's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Montpellier, France
Posts: 193
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 116 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
It is still unlit screen. Once you have tried side masking on a CIH screen, I doubt you ever want to go back to no masking.
Well not really unlit screen as it is a CIW screen and the projected image goes to the edge of the actual white screen plus the black backing extending by 2 inches.
Mine is only an ordinary electric retractable screen I made myself but I did use the best 4K AT fabric available here (woven not perforated) and my RS56 has a good enough contrast performance for the time being
But of course I do agree that a fully fledged maskable CIH is top, that's why I do not even try one ...

Last edited by jj-34; 02-01-2018 at 08:56 AM.
jj-34 is online now  
post #18690 of 19415 Old 02-01-2018, 09:07 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Gary Lightfoot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 6,432
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1300 Post(s)
Liked: 1053
Quote:
Originally Posted by jj-34 View Post
Indeed side masking isn't that much important as there are no side black bars as such, no projection there as it is outside the image window, only room reflections.
On my electric DIY AT screen I have a black accoustic backing to improve contrast and I have it wider by 5 cm on each side, so it acts as poor man's side masking by the way.
Of course black velvet would have been much better but it's too thick to roll up smoothly.
My entire room is black velvet and it disappears during a movie, so my ANSI CR is probably close to the PJs native ANSI CR. As most movies I watch are scope, side masking isn't an issue 90% of the time, and those that aren't I don't find any distraction from the unmasked part of the screen. I find things like image noise more of a distraction and likely to pull me out of a movie as it's a moving artefact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elmalloc
Who says Cameron is "right" and why do we care about him so much - lol!

I trust Gary Lightfoot more than James Cameron.
Gary Lightfoot is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply Digital Hi-End Projectors - $3,000+ USD MSRP

Tags
Benq W7000 Home Projection System , Jvc Dla Rs55 Bundle , Jvc Dla Rs45 Home Theater Projector 1080p Hdmi , Epson V11h502020 Powerlite Home Cinema 3020e 2d And 3d 1080p Wireless Home Theater Projector , Sony Vpl Hw50es 3d Projector , Epson 5010 Powerlite Home Cinema 3d Front Projector , Epson Powerlite Home Cinema 3010 2d And 3d Projector V11h421020 , Panasonic Ptae8000u Hd Projector , Mitsubishi Hc7900dw Home Theater 3d Projector , Mitsubishi Hc8000dbl Dlp 3d Home Theater Projector With Spare Lamp 1300 Ansi 12 6 Lbs , Darbeevision Darblet Hdmi Video Processor , Epson 5020ub Powerlite Home Cinema 3d Front Projector

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off