SONY VPL-VW500ES SXRD 4K Projector : IFA BERLIN 2013 - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 482 Old 06-27-2013, 05:13 AM
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We are talking about the annual Sony upgrade of the HW50ES class projector called in this thread the HW60ES (a 1080p projector) and a 4K projector cheaper than the VW1000ES called in this thread the VW100ES. The HW100ES would in essence replace the present VW95ES jumping the resolution to 4K If so, the only ES machine at 1080p would be the 60. No one has a clue as to how the marketing geniuses at Sony would number these new models.
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post #62 of 482 Old 06-27-2013, 05:32 AM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

Bump. Can someone tell me just which pj and specs we are talking about here? Are they doing away with the vw100 and just making the ve50 better, eliminating the need for having a model in between the 50 and 1000?

You are not going to fine out that much info since thing are still in the early.

What I can say is that there will be a 4k unit coming out at a lower price point, most likely 12k.
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post #63 of 482 Old 06-27-2013, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

We are talking about the annual Sony upgrade of the HW50ES class projector called in this thread the HW60ES (a 1080p projector) and a 4K projector cheaper than the VW1000ES called in this thread the VW100ES. The HW100ES would in essence replace the present VW95ES jumping the resolution to 4K If so, the only ES machine at 1080p would be the 60. No one has a clue as to how the marketing geniuses at Sony would number these new models.

Thanks Mark! So let's see if I have this straight...

The VW100ES will replace the HW50 with several improvements. There improvements likely move the machine up in quality so that it is similar to the VW95 and adds Reality Creation. Therefore there's no room in the line for the VW95 so it will go away. Then there will also be a new 4K unit that'll be the little brother to the VW1000ES. And the VW1000ES will continue to be the top end unit, with advantages over its little brother such as brightness and better quality lens. Is this right?
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post #64 of 482 Old 06-27-2013, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

Thanks Mark! So let's see if I have this straight...

The VW100ES will replace the HW50 with several improvements. There improvements likely move the machine up in quality so that it is similar to the VW95 and adds Reality Creation. Therefore there's no room in the line for the VW95 so it will go away. Then there will also be a new 4K unit that'll be the little brother to the VW1000ES. And the VW1000ES will continue to be the top end unit, with advantages over its little brother such as brightness and better quality lens. Is this right?

Here is what it is looking like, but there can always be a surprise

HW60ES (what it currently is being called) replaces HW50ES.
VW100ES, (what it currently is being called) new 4K projector with an estimated MSRP of $12,000.
VW95ES phased out.
VW1000ES carries on.
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post #65 of 482 Old 06-27-2013, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Here is what it is looking like, but there can always be a surprise

HW60ES (what it currently is being called) replaces HW50ES.
VW100ES, (what it currently is being called) new 4K projector with an estimated MSRP of $12,000.
VW95ES phased out.
VW1000ES carries on.

Great summary Mike, thanks! What do you think will be the main differences between the VW100ES and VW1000ES?
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post #66 of 482 Old 06-27-2013, 02:37 PM
 
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My guess is that lens quality is going to take a huge hit. Id also make a wager it won't be as bright as the 1000ES.
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post #67 of 482 Old 06-27-2013, 04:38 PM
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if this is going to be in the 12K range, why would they stick their necks out and put in a sub-par lens? It will get crushed by the fans if it doesn't look noticeably better than the current 1080P offerings.

regarding the brightness, I would at least expect ~950 lumens @ D65 since the cheapie HW50 can do this today. It also cannot have a $700+ lamp.. I do expect the 3D lamp pulsing to be included that was missed on the 1000.

this is an odd year since we know a new standard is coming along, yet the upcoming models this year won't have it.

Fall of 2014 could be VW1000 V2.0, updated standard + laser module to get back to that 25K price point.
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post #68 of 482 Old 06-27-2013, 04:42 PM
 
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Because the MSRP reflects that. I never said the lens will be sub par, but you can't expect it to be as nice as something that costs twice as much. The 1000ES is 1300-1400 lumens at D65 depending on who's numbers your reading. That's quite a bit brighter than the 50ES.
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post #69 of 482 Old 06-27-2013, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

Because the MSRP reflects that. I never said the lens will be sub par, but you can't expect it to be as nice as something that costs twice as much. The 1000ES is 1300-1400 lumens at D65 depending on who's numbers your reading. That's quite a bit brighter than the 50ES.

I agree. You are not going to get a VW1000ES killer for half the price. Definitely not from the same company. Would it make sense for them to do so?
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post #70 of 482 Old 06-27-2013, 04:58 PM
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the lumen output is good for 2D (it better be for a $700 lamp) but the 3D lumens doesn't match, minus the lamp pulsing which creates an odd situation for those with big, low gain screens and then need to look for a secondary screen for 3D. This has to be fixed in a future version.

'lens quality taking a huge hit'.. so how much of a hit can it take before it's not a worthy investment? it needs to be good enough to resolve the 4K pixel structure from edge to edge and not have a ton of noticeable CA , otherwise what will be the point of the investment.

i'd be more concerned about getting stuck with the current HDMI standard. We know something is cooking and will likely show it's face by this time next year, just in time for the fall 2014 models.

I have to get some kind of 4K this year. If I miss 'That's my Boy' in 4K, I don't know how I can call myself an HT enthusiast. cool.gif
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post #71 of 482 Old 06-27-2013, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post

if this is going to be in the 12K range, why would they stick their necks out and put in a sub-par lens? It will get crushed by the fans if it doesn't look noticeably better than the current 1080P offerings.

regarding the brightness, I would at least expect ~950 lumens @ D65 since the cheapie HW50 can do this today. It also cannot have a $700+ lamp.. I do expect the 3D lamp pulsing to be included that was missed on the 1000.

this is an odd year since we know a new standard is coming along, yet the upcoming models this year won't have it.

Fall of 2014 could be VW1000 V2.0, updated standard + laser module to get back to that 25K price point.
I need to start od thread on the advantages and disadvantages of laser illumination which is at least several more years off if one means a three beam laser. We could shortly see illumination provided by sony using a blue laser to light spinning phosphor target to produced white light and from there just like a standard bulb projector. Sony is doing such now with a business class projector. I assume but don't know the target is spun because it RGB segments or distribution on the wheel and when spun fast enough, the light is white. I dunno though. Speckle is still a big problem and the most economic and practical solution I have see re three beam lasers is to only use lasers for red and blue. And then use a blue laser to produce green from a spinning green phosphor wheel. Remember green provides about 72% or the light hitting the screen. Ekininating the green laser pretty much solves the speckle problem. Regulatory barriers. Another story


Any how I will start a thread and we will go through it all.
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post #72 of 482 Old 06-27-2013, 05:05 PM
 
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It's going to be as nice as Sony can make it for a 12k price point and still make the profit margin they're looking for. It's all about compromise once you start pricing down projectors and the lens is almost always the first thing to be taken down a few pegs. It will be nice, I'm sure, but I'm sure Sony still wants to sell the 1000ES too and don't think for a second they're going to undermine the 1000ES and put a lens in the 100ES that will push someone with the money for a 1000ES to buy their cheaper unit. My point here is that there will definable be a noticeable difference between the two in terms of sharpness and clarity. The 100ES will look great, I'm sure of it, but that the 1000ES that be much better due to a much nicer lens.
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post #73 of 482 Old 06-27-2013, 05:28 PM
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I hope the lens would be the same, they would need it to be. The jvc sell the rs46 for 1/4 of the price of a rs66 and they use the same lens. Plus, the same lens is probably needed for 4k anways, right?
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post #74 of 482 Old 06-27-2013, 05:38 PM
 
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

I hope the lens would be the same, they would need it to be. The jvc sell the rs46 for 1/4 of the price of a rs66 and they use the same lens. Plus, the same lens is probably needed for 4k anways, right?

That's because they mass produce them for all the projectors they sell. They are the only company that does that and sell the lens in a projector form that differs over such a drastic price scale. The lens will be different. 4K is no different than 1080p when it comes to choosing lens quality. There are going to be different lenses for different price points. The higher cost lenses will simply resolve more than the cheaper ones.
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post #75 of 482 Old 06-27-2013, 06:50 PM
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sample variance is still a factor, regardless of the cost of the lens. We have lenses for our commercial cameras at work that cost nearly much as the VW1000 and they *still* have sample variances between unique copies. If we had 10 VW1000's in the same room, it's likely there is going to be an average performer, mid-range and a golden sample here and there.

Given how important this is for full display resolution, I know i'd be staring at it with a microscope to make sure I have a good copy.

I hope JVC has something brewing, it would be great to see a JVC vs. Sony shootout at the 10K-12K street price range. They have to make a move, the current chassis in now 3 generations old and they already have a high end 4k + 8k eshift LCOS model with 4,096 x 2,400 resolution.
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post #76 of 482 Old 06-27-2013, 07:22 PM
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My problem is with reviewer variance. smile.gif

Seriously, a lens can be slower, having a higher effective f stop at both ends than a similar resolving power faster (lower effective F stop) lens. This has a ten fold savings in cost just by increasing 1 F stop, say going from a 2.8 to a 4. The larger the diameter lens the larger the sweet spot too allowing the use of more lens shift without going into the area of curvature and CA . Also decreasing the number of ED or other named low dispersion glass elements can save a bundle too. Using plastic elements can save money too. Any lens on a 4K projector should be capable of resolving the grid, the question is how clearly will each pixel be resolved across the screen, something akin to pixel sharpness of the MTF rating of the lens which is another name for contrast resolution. But once you sit a small distance away from the lens ones eyes would not be able to detect much if any difference. Its not like the lens has to be so sharp as to be able to resolve a fine CH for measurement. Before one asks, CH means Canine Hair. Shut up and clean your mind out. smile.gif No way will the lens be the same and you can take that statement to the bank.
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post #77 of 482 Old 06-27-2013, 07:56 PM
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I see your point on the lens diameter. It would be unlikely that the mini 1000 is going to be in such a large chassis as the current model. That is a big piece of glass you have there.
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post #78 of 482 Old 06-27-2013, 10:18 PM
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[quote name="blee0120" url="/t/1438597/new-sony-4k-sxrd-projector-vpl-hw100es-less-than-10000/60#post_23474368"]I hope the lens would be the same, they would need it to be. The jvc sell the rs46 for 1/4 of the price of a rs66 and they use the same lens. Plus, the same lens is probably needed for 4k anways, right?[/quote]

If you are expecting the same, you are going to be disappointed.
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post #79 of 482 Old 06-27-2013, 11:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

If you are expecting the same, you are going to be disappointed.

I can always hope
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post #80 of 482 Old 06-28-2013, 12:21 AM
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I have seen the Sony business laser projector. There is no colour wheel and there is no speckle. Contrast is business projector type so unsuitable for home cinema, but the light source can be easily put into a home cinema projector. No doubt Sony will do it sooner than later. The light source is useable for upto 20000 hours and more. Brightness goes down over time depending on usage patterns, total hours and lamp mode (high or normal). But it's far less than a lamp over the same time period.
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post #81 of 482 Old 06-28-2013, 12:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

I hope the lens would be the same, they would need it to be. Plus, the same lens is probably needed for 4k anways, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

If you are expecting the same, you are going to be disappointed.

Should'nt Sony have the Lense making process down by now so it would'nt be such a high expense?
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post #82 of 482 Old 06-28-2013, 05:07 AM
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Should'nt Sony have the Lense making process down by now so it would'nt be such a high expense?

My understanding is the process of making lens elements has been "down" for many, many years now, so there's not a lot of process improvement to be had. You've got to grind glass smooth, and that takes time, lots of time for really high quality optics.
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post

My problem is with reviewer variance. smile.gif

Seriously, a lens can be slower, having a higher effective f stop at both ends than a similar resolving power faster (lower effective F stop) lens. This has a ten fold savings in cost just by increasing 1 F stop, say going from a 2.8 to a 4. The larger the diameter lens the larger the sweet spot too allowing the use of more lens shift without going into the area of curvature and CA . Also decreasing the number of ED or other named low dispersion glass elements can save a bundle too. Using plastic elements can save money too. Any lens on a 4K projector should be capable of resolving the grid, the question is how clearly will each pixel be resolved across the screen, something akin to pixel sharpness of the MTF rating of the lens which is another name for contrast resolution. But once you sit a small distance away from the lens ones eyes would not be able to detect much if any difference. Its not like the lens has to be so sharp as to be able to resolve a fine CH for measurement. Before one asks, CH means Canine Hair. Shut up and clean your mind out. smile.gif No way will the lens be the same and you can take that statement to the bank.

That's an interesting thought... Even the worst (er, least expensive) 1080p projectors today can resolve the pixel grid (as far as I know), but today we worry about just how well that pixel grid is resolved since we sit close enough that we can really see each pixel (even if we can't see the space between them). We care that the edges are sharp and the contrast between them is high. On the other hand 4k will be so dense, pixel wise, and the pixels will be so small (each of your 1080p pixels will be cut in quarters) that will it really matter how clearly each individual pixel is resolved?

I've gone through the math before, but we can see more detail than 1080p, another way to look at it is 1080p pixels (at "normal" seating distances like 3 picture heights) are big enough that we can actually see individual pixels (the spaces in between are too small though which is why nobody complains), but 4k will be beyond that threshold unless you get really close.

This opens up some interesting possibilities. You could argue the current "high end" (JVC, VW95, LSx) machines have optics good enough for 4k already, take a look at this from Mark P's investigation:

http://www.videovantage.com/?p=11

The newer JVCs resolve pixels very well too (RS35 here)

http://www.videovantage.com/?p=704

Just imagine if you were to go in and divide each pixel by 4, the edges at 1080p are so sharply defined, that even at 2160p, you'll still have very well defined pixels, and the CA on these machines is so low that even at 2160p it would be essentially negligible.

Of course the pixel density also means some other intriguing possibilities. Effectively 4k is a 1080p machine with sub pixels, meaning you can now do real half-pixel alignment without electronic tricks, full pixel convergence on a HW100ES will be like being able to do half pixel convergence on a 95ES.

Maybe backing up a bit to summarize, I guess what I'm saying is having not actually seen anything in person, I'd guess there's a high probability that given I'd be putting a 4k machine on the same size screen/same seating distance as my current 1080p machine, I would not be disappointed with a 4k machine with the same optics I've got today.
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post #83 of 482 Old 06-28-2013, 02:28 PM
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Will 4k projector lenses will need a wider throw. I mean getting a wider/larger image from the same distance than a 1080 projector, as larger screens are likely to be used from similar projection distances.

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post #84 of 482 Old 06-28-2013, 03:35 PM
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A true 4K projector, as the 1000ES is has 2160 x 4096 pixels. 4096/2160 equals about 1.89. Consumer 4K is evolving to 2160 x 3840 pixels. 3840/2160 equals about 1.78. so throws etc should be about the same though who knows what particular lenses and throw ratio ranges will be offered. the closest throw for the Sony 1000ES is about 1.27 screen widths. The HW50 closest is about 1.37 or 1.39, I don't remember exactly.

the more of one particular lens a manufacturer uses, the better the economies of scale become. JVC switched a few years ago from a Japanese lens manufacturer to a Chinese one. They got a better price and were able because of that to get a better lens than the Japanese made one. Sony uses a Chinese made lens for the HW50 and it is nowhere near as good as the Japanese made lens used in the 95 and 1000ES. To me, the lenses used by JVC are much better than the lenses in the sony HW50. But the lens used in the 1000ES is a whole other level above the JVC lenses. This is not a dump on the JVC lenses. They are of high quality and using the same lens on all its consumer and pro HT machines plus going out for cheaper food (Chinese over Japanese) enabled this to happen.
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post #85 of 482 Old 06-28-2013, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
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Will 4k projector lenses will need a wider throw. I mean getting a wider/larger image from the same distance than a 1080 projector, as larger screens are likely to be used from similar projection distances.

That would be nice, my W1070 is mounted 12.5ft from the screen and I get a 150in from that distance. With the jvc, its 124in. It would be nice
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post #86 of 482 Old 06-29-2013, 02:17 AM
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red announced many things that may hit the market may not.

where is there laser 4k pr.?
i hear so many storys about it and last i hear that this pr. is not anymore on there agenda at least for now.
reason was the picture quality this unit have.

i am very sure you can not buy a red laser pr. anytime soon (not the next years).
i wonder why anytime when a other manufacturer come with somthing new (that really comes to the market) was compared to for sample this red laser pr. that very possible never hit the market.
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post #87 of 482 Old 06-29-2013, 04:44 AM
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W. Mayer. There are a variety of reasons why manufacturers have not come to market with high power three beam laser projectors. In the US as well as in the EU there are substantial regulatory hurdles that must be overcome. Eastman Kodak received a regulatory exemption or exception for its laser projector licensed to IMAX. That's it and the FDA here in the US said no more exemptions until the industry reaches a consensus as to the safety issues and a new set of regulations. That's probably a process including regulation issuance that will take several years. Plus the speckle issue has of yet no real solution practical for HT use nor economically practicable.


Red made a lot of noise and deluded many folks who craved a 4000 lumen projector for under 4K. The idiocy presented by many folks who wanted a projector like this for less than 4K. Obviously Red was not even sophisticated enough to realize the regulatory issues it would face in getting Government approval for its commercial theater version of its HT version let's call it prototype. Lasers arte expensive and while lasers in theory can use inexpensive lens, the speckle issue to be ameliorated requires expensive optics.

So Red said, we will put the machine on the back burner. We will keep up interest from our fan boy base by saying we are working on it but stop showing off their prototype and stick to cameras and the like limbo. A smart move. Their Redray player finally is shipping after over 6 months delay from preorder. Price is now $1750, pocket change to you but a huge barrier to market penetration to the 4K masses.


I do think Red is a good company and its cameras are in large scale use in the digital film production industry. But its claim of a consumer laser machine to let's call them budget HT folks for under $10K was seriously disruptive to the market place. Now by the end of the year, we will see low powered consumer 4K machines for around $10k. And these machines will have middle man margin built in which means they will be available from middle giving huge discounts to consumers in exchange of attracting their business. Red has no middlemen. But these machines won't be 3 beam lasers etc. And I doubt those wanting a 4K projector would keep waiting for Red here.
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post #88 of 482 Old 06-29-2013, 07:28 AM
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IMO, the RedRay exists so that owners of Red cameras can watch, colour grade, edit etc the footage they have shot on a 4k tv or projector. They do not exist for non-Red camera owners who happen to own a 4k tv or projector. Anyone hoping to use a RedRay to watch 4k content is very likely to be disappointed, possibly forever! I hope I am wrong but........
Time will tell.
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post #89 of 482 Old 06-29-2013, 08:30 AM
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Any news on the blu-ray spec being modified to accomodate 4K resolution? I've heard in other threads that Sony is using a video compression algorithm for their upcoming 4K download content that would easily work with existing blu-ray discs/drives and maintain good image quality.

I'd love to have the blu-ray format evolve for 4K. Let's hope we get 3-layers and improved color space (and additional frame-rate options for encoding) along for the ride.

1080p and lossless audio. EVERY BD should have them both.
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post #90 of 482 Old 06-29-2013, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet View Post

Any news on the blu-ray spec being modified to accomodate 4K resolution? I've heard in other threads that Sony is using a video compression algorithm for their upcoming 4K download content that would easily work with existing blu-ray discs/drives and maintain good image quality.

I'd love to have the blu-ray format evolve for 4K. Let's hope we get 3-layers and improved color space (and additional frame-rate options for encoding) along for the ride.

I included an update on the status of the Blu-ray 4K UHD work in my May 2013 blog - HERE. I updated the status on the other upcoming 4K UHD sources in a blog earlier this month - HERE.

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