The Blacker the Theater, The Better the Image - Page 151 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4501 of 6765 Old 01-18-2018, 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by johnson636 View Post
So what are you looking to improve upon? What velvet are you using? How far back is your MLP? If you have 70% of your room covered in velvet, including your screen wall, then you should have a floating screen effect. When you sit at your MLP, is the ceiling and side walls in your peripheral vision covered in velvet? If so, covering the rest of the room would be more preference. If there was a beneficial difference, I doubt it would be significant. Just my opinion
The thing is that i m coming from a sony hw40es and optoma uhd60, so the black level is vastly vastly improved, thats y i m excited to see if i can even improve it even more with further darkening of the room, my seating position is far back almost laying on the back wall , yeah it looks like it floating in air, unless i look up i can see the dark grey ceiling, the black velvet i have on the ceiling completely absorb the light, the black velvet i have on the sides has a small sheen to it, i m debating whether i should replace it with the other velvet material ( but thats at least an extra 300$ to replace those drapes and thats where i m not sure if its wise ti pay this much to get the velvet with no sheen whatsober)
Sorry where i live we dont have the names of the velvet, i didnt notice the velvet i had as drapes has a sheen to it until i fot the ceiling one and noticed ita darker and has absolutly no sheen or reflecting light)

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post #4502 of 6765 Old 01-19-2018, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by tnaik4 View Post
My walls on the side are completely covered with black velvet drapes, the ceiling and floor are covered up to 6ft , that leaves around 8ft , but the area that is not treated in velvet is mostly dark grey, the only really white thing in the room is 2 small drapes on the back, i do have speakers in the front but those are black finish too and i have them covered in velvet also.

I do agree with u once i did those 6ft of dark velvet on the cieling it was a huuge difference, thats y i m contemplating doing the whole ceiling, i m just not sure it ll be as much as a big difference since its already dark grey.
Just do the flashlight test. That will tell you definitively what the situation is in YOUR room.

I.e., with all the lights off, point the flashlight at various spots in your room (ceiling gray area, white curtains in back, etc.), while looking at the screen. See how much light winds up getting back there, turning it gray. (Hint: in general, any white on a back wall is going to hurt. Grays on sidewalls and ceilings, not so much.)

[NB: a flashlight with a narrow beam works best.]
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post #4503 of 6765 Old 01-19-2018, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by tnaik4 View Post
The thing is that i m coming from a sony hw40es and optoma uhd60, so the black level is vastly vastly improved, thats y i m excited to see if i can even improve it even more with further darkening of the room, my seating position is far back almost laying on the back wall , yeah it looks like it floating in air, unless i look up i can see the dark grey ceiling, the black velvet i have on the ceiling completely absorb the light, the black velvet i have on the sides has a small sheen to it, i m debating whether i should replace it with the other velvet material ( but thats at least an extra 300$ to replace those drapes and thats where i m not sure if its wise ti pay this much to get the velvet with no sheen whatsober)
Sorry where i live we dont have the names of the velvet, i didnt notice the velvet i had as drapes has a sheen to it until i fot the ceiling one and noticed ita darker and has absolutly no sheen or reflecting light)
If you could swing it, I'd consider adding sy triple black to the uncovered areas in your view. I found that even the slightest distraction bothered the heck out of me. To minimize the impact of the extra cost of the SY, you could complete sections at a time instead of buying all at once.

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post #4504 of 6765 Old 01-19-2018, 06:41 PM
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I just went thru this a few pages back...........so this is the short version.


Did half the room in velvet and the back wall........just painting what was left dark flat brown made a huge difference over the light color it was.
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post #4505 of 6765 Old 01-20-2018, 02:22 AM
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Has anyone tried the starch method of affixing fabric directly to the wall?

I need something that comes off cleanly as I do not want to repaint the room when I move...

My only concern is a few things:

1) This is the smallest room I will have ever converted to an HT room. It is 12' wide x 15' long. Projector is at very back of room, Seating is about 10-12' away. Projector mounted directly behind seating but a bit higher of course.

The room is "big enough", but I worry about the room feeling claustrophobic as I spend a LOT of time in the HT room (too much).

2) Do the black walls make the room feel claustrophobic in a smaller room like this?
I've done black walls before, but only with curtains and the room was way wider. The smallest HT room I ever had before was about 18' wide, and my new room is 12' wide.

3) So as to my earlier question, if you use the Liquid Starch method to affix fabric directly to the wall, is this too messy and will the wall need repainted after I remove it?

4) I guess I can tack on material or use curtains like I have in the past, but I was hoping to try something different this time.

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post #4506 of 6765 Old 01-20-2018, 03:33 AM
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I think I am just going to go with the stapling velvet idea for now, or I'll use the walmart tacks (That's how I did it in the past)...

In the past, I used a combination of walmart tacks for ceiling and curtains for the walls...

I don't want to mess with a bunch of sticky adhesive or liquid starch junk.

Does putting so many staples in the wall damage the underlying paint job, can you see them after you remove them?

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post #4507 of 6765 Old 01-20-2018, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
I think I am just going to go with the stapling velvet idea for now, or I'll use the walmart tacks (That's how I did it in the past)...

In the past, I used a combination of walmart tacks for ceiling and curtains for the walls...

I don't want to mess with a bunch of sticky adhesive or liquid starch junk.

Does putting so many staples in the wall damage the underlying paint job, can you see them after you remove them?
When I removed stapled and tacked up velvet from my wall and ceiling, the holes were very visible. I see your point about repainting upon selling your house, but I'm not sweating it because my room is in the basement and not a part of the main floor of the house.
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post #4508 of 6765 Old 01-20-2018, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
Has anyone tried the starch method of affixing fabric directly to the wall?

I need something that comes off cleanly as I do not want to repaint the room when I move...

My only concern is a few things:

1) This is the smallest room I will have ever converted to an HT room. It is 12' wide x 15' long. Projector is at very back of room, Seating is about 10-12' away. Projector mounted directly behind seating but a bit higher of course.

The room is "big enough", but I worry about the room feeling claustrophobic as I spend a LOT of time in the HT room (too much).

2) Do the black walls make the room feel claustrophobic in a smaller room like this?
I've done black walls before, but only with curtains and the room was way wider. The smallest HT room I ever had before was about 18' wide, and my new room is 12' wide.

3) So as to my earlier question, if you use the Liquid Starch method to affix fabric directly to the wall, is this too messy and will the wall need repainted after I remove it?

4) I guess I can tack on material or use curtains like I have in the past, but I was hoping to try something different this time.
My previous room was about 18'x20' and now in a 12.8'x20' at about 10' viewing distance. I quickly adjusted to the new room width. My screen is about a foot less width (12' now) than before but still plenty big and no issues with feeling claustrophobic when room is dark....I think you will be fine. BTW I still recall your awesome projector buying guide from about 5 years ago which led me to a Benq w1070 which I still use to this day for the kids cartoons so they don't use up my JVC RS500 bulb!
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post #4509 of 6765 Old 01-20-2018, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by johnson636 View Post
When I removed stapled and tacked up velvet from my wall and ceiling, the holes were very visible. I see your point about repainting upon selling your house, but I'm not sweating it because my room is in the basement and not a part of the main floor of the house.
Yah, and there is brand new carpet in here, I'm not painting, I cannot stand the smell it leaves. The fumes will go directly into the main living area. I have no idea how long I'll be here, probably at least 3 years, but no guarantee either way.

I guess I'm going to do the curtains again then (at least for now), I'll tack black sheets loosely to the ceiling which forms a sort of tented ceiling. Ceiling is 9' at least, so not too low. I seem to be missing about half the curtain panels, no idea which box they are in from moving, guess I'll end up buying new ones.

I just need to get it blacked out fast for now, because white walls in a small room is totally lame. Tell you what else is lame, moving... That's what... It's been 2 months and I am still completely disoriented, I have no idea where anything is, other than "its in some box somewhere"...

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post #4510 of 6765 Old 01-20-2018, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
Has anyone tried the starch method of affixing fabric directly to the wall?

I need something that comes off cleanly as I do not want to repaint the room when I move...

My only concern is a few things:

1) This is the smallest room I will have ever converted to an HT room. It is 12' wide x 15' long. Projector is at very back of room, Seating is about 10-12' away. Projector mounted directly behind seating but a bit higher of course.

The room is "big enough", but I worry about the room feeling claustrophobic as I spend a LOT of time in the HT room (too much).

2) Do the black walls make the room feel claustrophobic in a smaller room like this?
I've done black walls before, but only with curtains and the room was way wider. The smallest HT room I ever had before was about 18' wide, and my new room is 12' wide.

3) So as to my earlier question, if you use the Liquid Starch method to affix fabric directly to the wall, is this too messy and will the wall need repainted after I remove it?

4) I guess I can tack on material or use curtains like I have in the past, but I was hoping to try something different this time.
What i did in my room is i put black velvet on foam boards and used double sided tape to attach them to my cieling, didnt use much tape cause the boards are extreemly light, and it should be even easier if ur attaching to side walls.

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post #4511 of 6765 Old 01-21-2018, 07:39 AM
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I've been slowly expanding and improving my humble home theater and finally had the chance to paint the walls and ceiling a flat black. I knew that there would be an improvement but I was absolutely blown away how much better it is. I was also surprised when I re calibrated my projector, a JVC RS45, I was able to get the gamma and grayscale even more dialed in than I had previously. Overall very pleased with the improvement this low cost change has made. I think my next changes need to be an addition of an anamorphic lens, a Lumagen radiance so I can dial in calibration further, and replacing the carpet with something much darker. All out of my budget for now, but we'll see what the future holds. See the attached photos.

- What color is the carpet??
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post #4512 of 6765 Old 01-21-2018, 08:29 AM
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- What color is the carpet??
It was beige. I've since bought 4 huge black area rugs from At Home and covered almost my entire cinema room with them. Cost was about $150 and made a huge difference along with velvet on the first 6 feet of the ceiling key points on the front wall.
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post #4513 of 6765 Old 01-21-2018, 08:33 AM
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It was beige. I've since bought 4 huge black area rugs from At Home and covered almost my entire cinema room with them. Cost was about $150 and made a huge difference along with velvet on the first 6 feet of the ceiling key points on the front wall.
I am in the situation of having to choose between light beige, light gray or dark gray for a room that is also a living room. I have pretty much settled on medium grey walls and a darker shade of gray for the ceiling.
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post #4514 of 6765 Old 01-21-2018, 06:26 PM
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Covering the back wall makes a big difference, otherwise it is a endless light bounce back and forth between the screen and back wall.......

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post #4515 of 6765 Old 01-21-2018, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by tnaik4 View Post
What i did in my room is i put black velvet on foam boards and used double sided tape to attach them to my cieling, didnt use much tape cause the boards are extreemly light, and it should be even easier if ur attaching to side walls.
Interesting idea, I may do this. I'm torn between curtains and this method.

Which do you think looks better aesthetically if you had to guess...?

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post #4516 of 6765 Old 01-21-2018, 08:41 PM
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Interesting idea, I may do this. I'm torn between curtains and this method.

Which do you think looks better aesthetically if you had to guess...?
Be aware. Depending on what type of tape it is, it very well may remove paint upon removing the panels.

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post #4517 of 6765 Old 01-21-2018, 08:47 PM
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Be aware. Depending on what type of tape it is, it very well may remove paint upon removing the panels.
Yah, I thought of that, but the other thing would be getting all the panels lined up properly and it might look funny if I completely covered the wall with panels.

For now, I'm sticking with the curtains and only experimenting with a few panels possibly on the ceiling.

My other final decision is do I move the 106" HP screen in there, or do I get a new Silverticket screen.
Elunevision reference 4k screen would be better than the ST screen, but I don't want to spend big bucks on another 100" screen, because I'll eventually move to a 120" or so once I think mainstream JVC's are bright enough (it's borderline right now IMO, with 1.0 gain).

I'm going to go with the Elunevision Reference 4k screen once I move to the 120", probably after I get a laser 4k projector.

Others do go that large, but I'm not willing to keep replacing lamps that often...

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post #4518 of 6765 Old 01-21-2018, 09:09 PM
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Im using a 142? diagonal 2.35:1 silver ticket AT screen with a JVC RS400 and i have to clamp down on the iris and run in low lamp mode to prevent my eyes from getting scorched with bright scenes in movies. I would not be concerned in the least bit of not having enough gain with a ST screen at only 120? and with the projector likely closer to the screen than mine is.
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post #4519 of 6765 Old 01-21-2018, 09:14 PM
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Im using a 142? diagonal 2.35:1 silver ticket AT screen with a JVC RS400 and i have to clamp down on the iris and run in low lamp mode to prevent my eyes from getting scorched with bright scenes in movies. I would not be concerned in the least bit of not having enough gain with a ST screen at only 120? and with the projector likely closer to the screen than mine is.
I am using an older JVC, not planning to upgrade until Laser + Native 4k under $10k.

Moving PJ in there already has 600 hours on lamp, no scorching at 1.0 gain from older JVC with IRIS clamped. It's ok at -15 iris for now, but I'm at 1.8 gain.

I'll already have to move the iris to -5 to 0 most likely once I lose the gain if I go with a 100" ST screen.

Right now -- I'm using it in a temporary room though with white ceilings, but no white walls (well none that are directly exposed). Beige wall behind me.

Once I move it back to the all darkened room, I may still be ok at -15 on 100" screen. Anyhow, 120" a bit too big for this room, so I'll probably hold off on the larger screen until my next place (maybe).

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post #4520 of 6765 Old 01-21-2018, 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post
Im using a 142? diagonal 2.35:1 silver ticket AT screen with a JVC RS400 and i have to clamp down on the iris and run in low lamp mode to prevent my eyes from getting scorched with bright scenes in movies. I would not be concerned in the least bit of not having enough gain with a ST screen at only 120? and with the projector likely closer to the screen than mine is.
Even with HDR? My 123" wide white over black spandex screen is tough on my HDR movies. I'm sure I have no where near enough brightness for proper HDR.
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post #4521 of 6765 Old 01-22-2018, 12:09 AM
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Also, keep in mind that the average drop-off is 35% on UHP lamps at 1000 hours.

Most of the breakthroughs in UHP technology happened prior to 2010 (AFIK), there could have been a few breakthroughs in the past 3-5 years, but I'm not aware of them. They have optimized the ballast and cooling systems in some of these projectors, but there were already projectors that could potentially get 5000 - 10000 hours on lamps well before these latest GEN. The only difference is some MFR's played catch up to some other superior designs that were already in-play.

What else has changed is the MFR's have also become more careful about which lamps they buy and what factories they use, and that is likely attributed to this very forum. As there was some serious uproar about JVC and some other MFR's using those cheap Philips lamps from the past.

I've seen various people say there is no brightness drop with these newer UHP lamps at 1000 hours, that would be virtually impossible as that would be even superior to an LED lamp. Even with an LED lamp there is some loss at 1000 hours. There is even some loss with LASER at 1000 hours, though it's very slight.

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post #4522 of 6765 Old 01-22-2018, 12:04 PM
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I'm at over 3000 hours on my lamp, and I still watch SDR at -12 on the Iris for 16 foot lamberts. These bulbs are amazing! Granted, my screen is only 88" and is 1.3 gain (Stewart Firehawk).
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post #4523 of 6765 Old 01-22-2018, 05:01 PM
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Can?t speak to HDR, I?m simply running 1080p blu ray
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post #4524 of 6765 Old 01-22-2018, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post
I'm at over 3000 hours on my lamp, and I still watch SDR at -12 on the Iris for 16 foot lamberts. These bulbs are amazing! Granted, my screen is only 88" and is 1.3 gain (Stewart Firehawk).
That's roughly 40% to 50% lamp loss for 16 fL with the iris at -12 @ 1.3 gain @ 88", very roughly. That is slightly better than normal, but it's not out of the ordinary really.

The old JVC lamps were just so awful, everyone had low expectations.

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post #4525 of 6765 Old 01-23-2018, 03:11 AM
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Any tips for someone buying velvet to cover their entire HT ? Coming from India, I don't get Fidelio/Triple Black/Joann. I did get a sample which costed about 10$ for a yard. No sheen to it unless i put my phone's flash on it. the material seems perforated,almost like AT material. Is that good ?
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post #4526 of 6765 Old 01-23-2018, 04:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post
I'm at over 3000 hours on my lamp, and I still watch SDR at -12 on the Iris for 16 foot lamberts. These bulbs are amazing! Granted, my screen is only 88" and is 1.3 gain (Stewart Firehawk).
That's your screen there, I started at -11 and now I am at -8 at 1500 hours on 120", not bad but it's no laser and for HDR it isn't enough now.
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JVC RS620/X9500 in bat cave Anthem MRX-720 + 3xpower amps = 7.1.4, Martin Logan Motion 60XT fronts, ML FX rears, ML Motion 50XT centre, 4 x ML Motion 2 on ceiling Atmos, ML Balanced force 210 as the beast. Panasonic UB900, STAX-3170 earspeakers, HTPC, PS4, PS3, Amiga 500 etc..Epson LS10000 calibration and WCG SDR settings: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post50298297
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post #4527 of 6765 Old 01-23-2018, 08:19 AM
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That's roughly 40% to 50% lamp loss for 16 fL with the iris at -12 @ 1.3 gain @ 88", very roughly. That is slightly better than normal, but it's not out of the ordinary really.
Any idea with his iris at -12 how much headroom he still has left? I.e., how many ftL would he gain by opening it to 0?
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post #4528 of 6765 Old 01-23-2018, 08:31 AM
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Any idea with his iris at -12 how much headroom he still has left? I.e., how many ftL would he gain by opening it to 0?
Edit --- I would have to check the aperture f-stops, but very roughly I believe he should gain at least 10 fL (possibly a bit more).

I did not measure this myself, but am going by what some reviewers claim. There is probably an officially spec'd F-stop number for the fixed aperture, which may or may not be accurate (not sure).

F-Stops on the main lens (for the throw position / zoom) are often not that accurate because of a multitude of reasons, mainly because if going by measuring calibrated lumens, the measurement technique offsets the F-stop accuracy, but also because of coatings and calibration stuff it messes up the linearity of the F-stop curves logarithm.

In professional and commercial film making, people will often create their own offset using reference equipment and call this a T-STOP instead of an F-STOP. When you see a review site measure a specific point at a specific throw, this is essentially a T-Stop (though incomplete). If they produced enough measurements, you can derive a full T-Stop curve to make it work more like an official F-Stop curve.

For Lumens estimates, my Projector Calculator attempts to simulate a T-STOP rather than use F-Stops, though in a future version I do plan to add the ability to use F-Stops eventually as well, so you can check a box and see the difference between the T-Stop EST and the F-Stop MFR supplied #. This is because the reviewers are essentially measuring using T-Stops, so I want to match their technique if I am reporting their numbers.
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Last edited by coderguy; 01-23-2018 at 09:09 AM.
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post #4529 of 6765 Old 01-23-2018, 10:19 AM
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Edit --- I would have to check the aperture f-stops, but very roughly I believe he should gain at least 10 fL (possibly a bit more).

...

For Lumens estimates, my Projector Calculator attempts to simulate a T-STOP rather than use F-Stops, though in a future version I do plan to add the ability to use F-Stops eventually as well, so you can check a box and see the difference between the T-Stop EST and the F-Stop MFR supplied #. This is because the reviewers are essentially measuring using T-Stops, so I want to match their technique if I am reporting their numbers.
Thanks for the detailed response.

I have occasionally wondered why folks didn't just check their lumen output initially, at each iris setting, so they'd be able to predict what headroom they'd have left later. I realize that each individual PJ has slightly different iris stops, so coming up with a 'standard curve' for the 16 points may not be especially viable (w/o possibly large tolerances). But once you checked it on your specific unit, you'd be set, and wouldn't have to guess.
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post #4530 of 6765 Old 01-23-2018, 10:28 AM
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The F-stop curve for the fixed aperture may be consistent unlike the throw curve, but I am not sure. I can test it on my own JVC later.

It's different for the throw than the fixed aperture, since the fixed aperture is working on a different part of the lens, whereas the throw distance affects the entire lens (Which is why throw F-Stops are the most sensitive and are rarely correct).
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