The Blacker the Theater, The Better the Image - Page 190 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #5671 of 6292 Old 02-22-2019, 05:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
That will probably work good, but it's a lot of work.
I am looking for something simple.

Last time, the way I did it was I used cardboard and made panels (like ceiling tile size, and then put those on the wall).
It looked ok, but it didn't look as good as I thought it would, hence no better than just tacking the velvet to the walls really.
What would have made it look better is if the panels were 1 piece and went all the way to the top of the wall (instead of being smaller and looking like 'ceiling tiles').

Last time I went to Home Depot I never did find any long lightweight cardboard-like material to use for 9' sections.
I know I can find 4-5' cardboard pieces. I guess I will go look again.

I would like to find 40" x 9' cardboard pieces and make 3-4 sections for each wall.
Might have to tape 2 cardboard pieces together to get one that big.
You can also use rigid insulation.



https://www.lowes.com/search?searchT...gid+insulation



I actually built test panels using 1/8" hardboard. I sprayed them with just glue. I was paranoid that the blue would not hold long term without staples. So I choose 1/4" OSB instead. The 1/8" hardboard/mdf is really easy to build panels with in my experience.
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post #5672 of 6292 Old 02-22-2019, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
I am also debating on how to put up my black velvet, I moved the HT equipment into a new room and have to redo it again.

Wood frames is probably the cleanest solution, but seems like a lot of trouble, I guess ok for a permanent solution.
This idea was interesting...
https://rainonatinroof.com/how-to-ma...ame-for-cheap/

Assuming most people have 9' ceilings, just 2 of those frames could cover a 40" portion of the wall. Still that would be 12 frames to cover both sides for 10' of a wall, and more frames for an entire room. That is a lot of work, I think I'm going back to the cardboard idea.

I was debating on going the thumb tack route vs. the wood panels vs cardboard, going to try cardboard first.
Frames for wall covering are nothing like that picture frame. You just need the rigid shape to form the edge and it could be filled with foam or insulation for absorption, or just left empty if you want a sound reflection point. Edges could be 1 inch or 5/4 inch dimensional lumber or two layers cut from a 1/2" mdf sheet and glued together. There must be a sticky thread in the construction forums for it.
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post #5673 of 6292 Old 02-22-2019, 02:01 PM
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Well there is more than one way to do it, velvet isn't thick, you can use anything (even cardboard).
Many people in here have used very very thin wood pieces even thinner than picture frames.

I get it that there is a 'best' way to do it construction wise, but I'm not looking for that added labor and expense.

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post #5674 of 6292 Old 02-22-2019, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpolachak View Post
You can also use rigid insulation.

https://www.lowes.com/search?searchT...gid+insulation

I actually built test panels using 1/8" hardboard. I sprayed them with just glue. I was paranoid that the blue would not hold long term without staples. So I choose 1/4" OSB instead. The 1/8" hardboard/mdf is really easy to build panels with in my experience.
True, I went to home depot looking for this once and they didn't have the correct size.

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Last edited by coderguy; 02-22-2019 at 02:14 PM.
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post #5675 of 6292 Old 02-23-2019, 04:44 AM
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Just wanted to share the recent change to our HT:

https://imgur.com/gallery/N9WE70k

It’s not a fully dedicated HT, so we didn’t go full zero dark thirty. Painted the low ceiling in front of screen and the adjacent side wall a flat black.

Difference is huge!

Last edited by rinse82; 02-23-2019 at 04:55 AM.
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post #5676 of 6292 Old 02-23-2019, 05:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaychatbonneau View Post
Would you do me the kindness of posting pictures of the wood frames and then the finished panels? Thank you so much.
I would, but I used foam panels. I didn't use wood, thought it would be too heavy(compared to foam panels). I posted some pics a bit back in the thread.
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post #5677 of 6292 Old 02-23-2019, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rinse82 View Post
Just wanted to share the recent change to our HT:

https://imgur.com/gallery/N9WE70k

It’s not a fully dedicated HT, so we didn’t go full zero dark thirty. Painted the low ceiling in front of screen and the adjacent side wall a flat black.

Difference is huge!
Looks great!

I started out with a black ceiling and then went to velvet panels on the ceiling. It was the single biggest improvement I have made to my theatre.

I have since added another row of velvet panels to the ceiling since this picture was taken.
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post #5678 of 6292 Old 02-23-2019, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rinse82 View Post
Just wanted to share the recent change to our HT:



https://imgur.com/gallery/N9WE70k



It’s not a fully dedicated HT, so we didn’t go full zero dark thirty. Painted the low ceiling in front of screen and the adjacent side wall a flat black.



Difference is huge!


That looks great and the difference is huge


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post #5679 of 6292 Old 02-23-2019, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rinse82 View Post
Just wanted to share the recent change to our HT:

https://imgur.com/gallery/N9WE70k

It’s not a fully dedicated HT, so we didn’t go full zero dark thirty. Painted the low ceiling in front of screen and the adjacent side wall a flat black.

Difference is huge!
The checkerboard pattern says it all.

What paint was used?
Thanks...and great job.
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post #5680 of 6292 Old 02-23-2019, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by normandia View Post
The checkerboard pattern says it all.

What paint was used?
Thanks...and great job.
https://www.sherwin-williams.com/hom...ic-latex-paint

Flat Black
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post #5681 of 6292 Old 02-23-2019, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by rinse82 View Post

Thanks...and the sale helps!
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post #5682 of 6292 Old 02-26-2019, 04:27 PM
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I'm still trying to decide how to treat my ceiling. I was considering triple black velvet or adhesive backed black velvet mounted on 2' x 4' backerboard under the existing 2' x 4' hung ceiling tiles. Alternatively I was thinking about larger plywood sheets covered with triple black velvet but I can't think of a good way to mount them. I would prefer a non permanent solution in case I ever sell the house.

1) What do you guys recommend?
2) Do I need to cover the cross sections as well, if so, with what?
3) How far out do I need to go? 6 feet?


Thanks
Rick

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post #5683 of 6292 Old 02-26-2019, 04:44 PM
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Hi,

I suggest you use K-line boards covered with the triple black velvet you mentioned. To mount them in an easy-to-remove way, there's two options I can think of: black self-adhesive velcro strips or neodymium magnets (which you would have to glue to those cross sections if they're not made of any metal attracted to magnets). You can buy tons of very strong little magnets for cheap on eBay. I think both solutions will look good in the end, and both allow you to use the cross sections as support elements and at the same time cover them. Because the screen is very close to the ceiling, they will flash with light and distract people if you don't cover them. As for how far to cover, the recommendation is usually at least until the area over where the seats are.

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post #5684 of 6292 Old 02-27-2019, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by descalabro View Post
Hi,

I suggest you use K-line boards covered with the triple black velvet you mentioned. To mount them in an easy-to-remove way, there's two options I can think of: black self-adhesive velcro strips or neodymium magnets (which you would have to glue to those cross sections if they're not made of any metal attracted to magnets). You can buy tons of very strong little magnets for cheap on eBay. I think both solutions will look good in the end, and both allow you to use the cross sections as support elements and at the same time cover them. Because the screen is very close to the ceiling, they will flash with light and distract people if you don't cover them. As for how far to cover, the recommendation is usually at least until the area over where the seats are.
Thanks. Magnets are a great idea. I checked and magnets do stick to the cross supports. I ordered a gross of ring magnets I can easily screw to aboard.

I'm not familiar with K-line boards. Are they like hardboard panels?
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Hardboar...2777/202189720
or
https://www.homedepot.com/p/1-8-in-x...7562/204727075

Rick
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post #5685 of 6292 Old 02-27-2019, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdlohr View Post
Thanks. Magnets are a great idea. I checked and magnets do stick to the cross supports. I ordered a gross of ring magnets I can easily screw to aboard.

I'm not familiar with K-line boards. Are they like hardboard panels?
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Hardboar...2777/202189720
or
https://www.homedepot.com/p/1-8-in-x...7562/204727075

Rick
Kapa line boards are not a building material, they are a kind of foamboards with some sort of plastic surface on each side. They're used by designers and architects to make models, but most commonly as hard surfaces to print photos and ads on. They're very lightweight. You can find them in black also. Similar to hollow PVC boards (and even some PVC boards have foam in the middle so maybe they're exactly the same as kapa line boards).

Kapa line board:
http://www.signmaterialsdirect.com/5...ard-kapamount3

PVC foam board (scroll down for pictures):
https://www.alibaba.com/product-deta...692549745.html

Hollow PVC board:
https://www.indiamart.com/proddetail...385052833.html

I see what you're going for with the magnetic rings and screws, but I would not screw them to the boards. Rather, I would glue them to the boards so that they can completely adhere and magnetize to the cross sections. This will make it simpler to mount them, saves the weight of the screws and will make for a cleaner result. Just make sure they're neodymium magnets (which are very strong), and that each PVC/kapa line board has all its edges held to the cross sections (by the photo, it looks like there's enough space). I believe your greatest challenge will be to cover the boards with the velvet in a flat and even, wrinkle-free, way.
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post #5686 of 6292 Old 02-27-2019, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdlohr View Post
I'm still trying to decide how to treat my ceiling. I was considering triple black velvet or adhesive backed black velvet mounted on 2' x 4' backerboard under the existing 2' x 4' hung ceiling tiles. Alternatively I was thinking about larger plywood sheets covered with triple black velvet but I can't think of a good way to mount them. I would prefer a non permanent solution in case I ever sell the house.

1) What do you guys recommend?
2) Do I need to cover the cross sections as well, if so, with what?
3) How far out do I need to go? 6 feet?


Thanks
Rick

I built panels and covered with Velvet for the Side walls out about 5-6'. I have a Black Suspended Ceiling, but light still reflects off it. I want to do something with the ceiling, so will be interested to see how you go about doing this. I was going to do what someone on this thread mentioned somewhere, and that was is to cut the Velvet and spray glue to each tile. Then purchase some Velvet Tape type stuff and adhere to the Rails. I forget the site, but it's used for Telescopes. I decided not to go that route as there were too many folks trying to order, never heard back from them, didn't know if they were out of business, etc. I'm not risking that, nor have the patience do deal with it. Amazon has some Felt Tape, so I was going to cut it to size and use it. However, I'd much rather build something light weight, covered with Velvet, and attach under the Suspended Ceiling like you are looking to do. The person who posted about spray gluing the velvet to each tile said it took a good bit of time and was quite smelly. I'm extremely sensitive to smells, so that's the last thing I want to do, especially in a closed off HT room with no windows.

Tony
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post #5687 of 6292 Old 02-27-2019, 06:45 PM
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Attaching masking panels

So I built a pair of vertical masking panels for my scope screen using foam board and triple black velvet. My dilemma is how to attach and detach from the screen. I did not want to disassemble my screen to place magnets inside the frame, but then I read somewhere about using velcro to attach to the screen frame and thought that was a great idea. Only after I finished did I realize that the glue at the back of tape does not stick very well to the velvet wrapped frame. When you remove the panel the force is enough to remove the strip from the frame and there is no residue left. I guess because fabric is porous material. One option is that I can use fabric glue on the frame side to stick the velcro strip. Only downside if I ever sell the frame it might be difficult to remove it. Any other ideas will be greatly appreciated.
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post #5688 of 6292 Old 02-27-2019, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonybradley View Post
I built panels and covered with Velvet for the Side walls out about 5-6'. I have a Black Suspended Ceiling, but light still reflects off it. I want to do something with the ceiling, so will be interested to see how you go about doing this. I was going to do what someone on this thread mentioned somewhere, and that was is to cut the Velvet and spray glue to each tile. Then purchase some Velvet Tape type stuff and adhere to the Rails. I forget the site, but it's used for Telescopes. I decided not to go that route as there were too many folks trying to order, never heard back from them, didn't know if they were out of business, etc. I'm not risking that, nor have the patience do deal with it. Amazon has some Felt Tape, so I was going to cut it to size and use it. However, I'd much rather build something light weight, covered with Velvet, and attach under the Suspended Ceiling like you are looking to do. The person who posted about spray gluing the velvet to each tile said it took a good bit of time and was quite smelly. I'm extremely sensitive to smells, so that's the last thing I want to do, especially in a closed off HT room with no windows.
Both for velvet and felt there is the option of buying self-adhesive rolls, it's just that most of that stuff sold online is the cheapest kind of velvet/felt. I tried the felt once, applied directly to the ceiling, and you must have method and skill to prevent it from getting deformed and wrinkling. On boards as discussed above, should be a lot easier, which I'll maybe do once I get the time; although first I intend to experiment the inside pattern of this cardboard sprayed in black paint. My hope is that it may trap the light inside those tinny holes:



I know this is the $3.000+ section of the forum, but that's the kind of solutions I always look for because I can't afford anything else, and it's fun to experiment with. But even the cheap rolls will make a great difference when compared to a white ceiling. So, my question is: what kind of "Black suspended ceiling" do you have that still reflects too much light?

Last edited by descalabro; 02-27-2019 at 07:08 PM.
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post #5689 of 6292 Old 02-27-2019, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gravi View Post
So I built a pair of vertical masking panels for my scope screen using foam board and triple black velvet. My dilemma is how to attach and detach from the screen. I did not want to disassemble my screen to place magnets inside the frame, but then I read somewhere about using velcro to attach to the screen frame and thought that was a great idea. Only after I finished did I realize that the glue at the back of tape does not stick very well to the velvet wrapped frame. When you remove the panel the force is enough to remove the strip from the frame and there is no residue left. I guess because fabric is porous material. One option is that I can use fabric glue on the frame side to stick the velcro strip. Only downside if I ever sell the frame it might be difficult to remove it. Any other ideas will be greatly appreciated.
Maybe an image of said frame can help me understand better, but can't you just hang those panels from the top of the frame?
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post #5690 of 6292 Old 02-27-2019, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by descalabro View Post
Maybe an image of said frame can help me understand better, but can't you just hang those panels from the top of the frame?
The first shot shows the screen and the second one with masking panel. The only issue is that velcro tape is not very sticky on the frame.

Edit: I should have rotated the pics
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post #5691 of 6292 Old 02-27-2019, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by gravi View Post
The first shot shows the screen and the second one with masking panel. The only issue is that velcro tape is not very sticky on the frame.

Edit: I should have rotated the pics
Ok, so it looks like you could hang the boards from the top of the frame and just forget about velcro, glue and whatnot. Just attach some hanging accessory to the top of each panel. Seems like the simplest and efficient solution for what you need.

A pair of these at the top of each panel (make sure they're perfectly level so the boards will hang vertically):


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post #5692 of 6292 Old 02-27-2019, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by descalabro View Post
Ok, so it looks like you could hang the boards from the top of the frame and just forget about velcro, glue and whatnot. Just attach some hanging accessory to the top of each panel. Seems like the simplest and efficient solution for what you need.

A pair of these at the top of each panel (make sure they're perfectly level so the boards will hang vertically):

Are you saying just hook the bracket over the top of the frame? I guess that can work with a more rigid material but my panels are lightweight foam board so don't think I can attach a bracket like that.
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post #5693 of 6292 Old 02-27-2019, 08:16 PM
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Just to clarify, those are really small L shaped pieces of metal, those holes are screw holes. You believe the foam boards will break?


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post #5694 of 6292 Old 02-28-2019, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by descalabro View Post
Both for velvet and felt there is the option of buying self-adhesive rolls, it's just that most of that stuff sold online is the cheapest kind of velvet/felt. I tried the felt once, applied directly to the ceiling, and you must have method and skill to prevent it from getting deformed and wrinkling. On boards as discussed above, should be a lot easier, which I'll maybe do once I get the time; although first I intend to experiment the inside pattern of this cardboard sprayed in black paint. My hope is that it may trap the light inside those tinny holes:



I know this is the $3.000+ section of the forum, but that's the kind of solutions I always look for because I can't afford anything else, and it's fun to experiment with. But even the cheap rolls will make a great difference when compared to a white ceiling. So, my question is: what kind of "Black suspended ceiling" do you have that still reflects too much light?
The Runners and Cross bars on a suspended ceiling do not absorb light. They reflect light. I purchased black rails. My ceiling tiles are 2x2 drywall tiles covered in a textured vinyl from a Specialty store in my area. Those are painted with flat black paint. Flat Black paint still reflects, just not as bad as a white ceiling. If you go through this thread, you'll see lots of comparisons between black paint and Velvet. No comparison. If "Black" didn't reflect light, people wouldn't need to spend all the time and money on the velvet solutions. They'd just paint walls black.

Tony
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post #5695 of 6292 Old 02-28-2019, 01:16 PM
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What do you guys think of the new "frameless" edge wrapped movie screens? if you do black behind the screen or perhaps even a dark brown wood decor, it might look really decent. These allow some back lighting behind the screen (edge lighting) to improve perceived contrast.

These images from elite screens is what I am getting at.

Also, we talk about diffusion surfaces for sound on the side walls, but what about diffusive surfaces or coatings for light on the side walls so that you don't really "need" a black theater to get most of the same results from a image perspective?
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post #5696 of 6292 Old 02-28-2019, 01:28 PM
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The Blacker the Theater, The Better the Image

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonybradley View Post
The Runners and Cross bars on a suspended ceiling do not absorb light. They reflect light. I purchased black rails.

Yes, they reflect light, that’s why I suggested using them to hold the boards covered in velvet, thus covering them (the cross bars). The person I was replying to doesn’t want to change the color of the cross bars in the event of one day having to sell the house. So he’ll just cover them, no need to paint anything or any other permanent solution.

As for the cardboard I mentioned I’m going to experiment to paint in black, the point is to use the honeycomb pattern to trap light inside. Will not be as effective as velvet, for sure, but I can’t afford velvet, and also I’m going for something that has decorative value during daytime, since it’s not a dedicated theatre.

But why don’t you use velvet if you can?


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post #5697 of 6292 Old 02-28-2019, 01:37 PM
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What do you guys think of the new "frameless" edge wrapped movie screens? if you do black behind the screen or perhaps even a dark brown wood decor, it might look really decent. These allow some back lighting behind the screen (edge lighting) to improve perceived contrast.



These images from elite screens is what I am getting at.



Also, we talk about diffusion surfaces for sound on the side walls, but what about diffusive surfaces or coatings for light on the side walls so that you don't really "need" a black theater to get most of the same results from a image perspective?


Well, unfortunately you won’t get most of the same results as in a black theater. You simply won’t.


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post #5698 of 6292 Old 02-28-2019, 01:58 PM
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Well, unfortunately you won’t get most of the same results as in a black theater. You simply won’t.


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I have had a matte black theater before as well as the lighter brown in my current theater. I just find the black is hard to stay awake in when just listening to music or hanging out.

I am just thinking about how to get the best of both worlds to the degree that is possible. What can be done short of perfection from an image quality standpoint?

Perhaps temporary black motorized shades or curtains would work.

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post #5699 of 6292 Old 02-28-2019, 02:09 PM
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I have had a matte black theater before as well as the lighter brown in my current theater. I just find the black is hard to stay awake in when just listening to music or hanging out.



I am just thinking about how to get the best of both worlds to the degree that is possible. What can be done short of perfection from an image quality standpoint?



Perhaps temporary black motorized shades or curtains would work.


I’m with you on this, I too want a space that I can enjoy while not watching movies. So, yes, black curtains covering the walls on te sides nearby and the wall opposite to the screen. For the ceiling, the only movable solution I’ve seen yet is using the curtain rods to hold a third horizontal curtain from one side of the room to the other. Using the same curtain rings, the system will cover and uncover the room as one big curtain. Requires a sturdy installation.


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post #5700 of 6292 Old 02-28-2019, 02:11 PM
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What do you guys think of the new "frameless" edge wrapped movie screens? if you do black behind the screen or perhaps even a dark brown wood decor, it might look really decent. These allow some back lighting behind the screen (edge lighting) to improve perceived contrast.

These images from elite screens is what I am getting at.

Also, we talk about diffusion surfaces for sound on the side walls, but what about diffusive surfaces or coatings for light on the side walls so that you don't really "need" a black theater to get most of the same results from a image perspective?
You do not want to diffuse light. That would reduce the actual contrast by sending some light back to the screen. What would be the point of spending money to improve "perceived" contrast at the expense of true, measured contrast? The best projected image has no competition from other light sources, to include reflections of the projected light itself. That is why this thread exists, to teach you how to absorb light. Bias lighting for projection is a pointless gimmick. It's a gadget that probably makes a cool effect for 10 minutes in a showroom but would crush your spirits when you get home and realize that not only are you not batman, but you can't see batman on screen because the bias lighting washes him out.

A dark surround for the screen is better than not having it, definitely. There are many examples of recessed screen areas that have been blacked out to great effect, and the more absorptive, the better. The point of the thread is, the more, the better. You have to find your own balance point between total cave and artistic design. In my last two builds I have used curtains/false walls to frame out a blacked out space separate from the sitting area.
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