The Blacker the Theater, The Better the Image - Page 205 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #6121 of 6220 Old 05-20-2019, 07:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabre View Post
Alr screen is junk, at least my experience with CARLs ALR

Dims the image way too much, hot spotting, sparkling, color shift, u name it

But it does work better with some ligjt in room.
Not all ALR screens are junk. Stewart makes one called HALR and it is a very good screen. It is expensive, but the only one I have seen that did not have a bunch of artifacts.
http://www.stewartfilmscreen.com/scr...-halr%E2%84%A2
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post #6122 of 6220 Old 05-20-2019, 07:10 PM
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Whats the price for 130"?

It would need to be a reallllly muuuch better, and I doubt it can be that better to fix all drawbacks.

I might be wrong, allthough my research and experiments all come to same conclusion with alr screens.
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post #6123 of 6220 Old 05-21-2019, 06:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabre View Post
Whats the price for 130"?

It would need to be a reallllly muuuch better, and I doubt it can be that better to fix all drawbacks.

I might be wrong, allthough my research and experiments all come to same conclusion with alr screens.
To give you an idea on how confident Stewart is with this screen, at CEDIA Stewart was showing black and white content on the screen. Black and white content makes it very easy to see any artifacts and none showed up. As I said the screen is not cheap. MSRP for a 130" diagonal 16:9 is $5,554.64.
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post #6124 of 6220 Old 05-21-2019, 09:06 AM
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I would have it hard to believe it is 20 times better then what carl's is. Thats how much more expensive it is.

I didnt have problems with black/white, quite opposite, it looked great. Great increased perceived contrast.

But I did with giving out a grey cast to the image, which is to untrained eye, or casual viewer hard to pick up. And in gemeral a much much dimmer image. No pop.

But when u put up a white piece of paper on top, you see just how much everything is off compared to white.

It would need to be a miracle and definitelly well compared to throw out 5-6k on a screen without comparing with white before. Direct comparison.

In general, 6k for a screen is pure snake oil.
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post #6125 of 6220 Old 05-21-2019, 09:32 AM
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Quick update-

I've applied black velvet to the entire front half of the room. My acoustic panels are black GOM, and my carpet is black but with a gray pattern running through it. The black velvet, unfortunately, makes the black GOM acoustic panels look like they are white drywall by comparison. No idea what to do there---I'm completely losing the immersion of the black velvet because the panels are being lit up so much by the reflections off the screen. Overexposed photos attached to show the problem.

I guess I could always ditch the panels and see if I can deal with the first order reflections. Tough choice! What have other people done to deal with this?
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post #6126 of 6220 Old 05-21-2019, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddgdl View Post
Quick update-

I've applied black velvet to the entire front half of the room. My acoustic panels are black GOM, and my carpet is black but with a gray pattern running through it. The black velvet, unfortunately, makes the black GOM acoustic panels look like they are white drywall by comparison. No idea what to do there---I'm completely losing the immersion of the black velvet because the panels are being lit up so much by the reflections off the screen. Overexposed photos attached to show the problem.

I guess I could always ditch the panels and see if I can deal with the first order reflections. Tough choice! What have other people done to deal with this?
Why can’t you just cover the acoustic panels with velvet too?
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post #6127 of 6220 Old 05-21-2019, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Wookii View Post
Why can’t you just cover the acoustic panels with velvet too?
I thought someone had determined that there was an adverse impact on the absorption panels from doing so? I could be misremembering
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post #6128 of 6220 Old 05-21-2019, 10:12 AM
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One way to find out is put some fabric one just one side/panel, and give it ago. Just a thought. I have a bunch of black velvet, and love the way the screen blends in, but do not have any acoustic panels.
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post #6129 of 6220 Old 05-21-2019, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddgdl View Post
I thought someone had determined that there was an adverse impact on the absorption panels from doing so? I could be misremembering
I think if anything it would increase the absorption.

I don't see velvet as being reflective.

I've measured the absorption but not the reflection.

There was something like a 10-15db absorption over 10k but under that looked similar to just about most other fabrics.

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post #6130 of 6220 Old 05-21-2019, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddgdl View Post
I thought someone had determined that there was an adverse impact on the absorption panels from doing so? I could be misremembering
I think if anything it would increase the absorption.

I don't see velvet as being reflective.

I've measured the absorption but not the reflection.

There was something like a 10-15db absorption over 10k but under that looked similar to just about most other fabrics.
I'll see what I can do (says the man who ran out of velvet already!). Thanks
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post #6131 of 6220 Old 05-21-2019, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddgdl View Post
I'll see what I can do (says the man who ran out of velvet already!). Thanks

Actually I found my previous test:

Quote:
This may be of some interest,

The other week I wanted to see what the effects some acoustic screen material would have in front of my speakers so i set up a little measurement. I also placed one of my acoustic panels right in front of it,

I tried just the panel, just the fabric, both the panel and fabric as it sits on my wall, and I also tried velvet, this velvet would be the same stuff you get at Joannes and the like, its quite good stuff, almost as good as Fidelio.

Anyway you see the raw speaker response (Pay NO attention to the flatness of the curve, only pay attention to how it differs with the various materials), and the velvet is the red one.

p.s the acoustic fabric is not real acoustic fabric, just stuff I though would be fine to use, and it is for the purpose of a panel.

These measurements were done with the materials right in front of my speaker, so in order for any upper range audio to hit my mic, it would certainly need to pass through the material.

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post #6132 of 6220 Old 05-21-2019, 07:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddgdl View Post
I'll see what I can do (says the man who ran out of velvet already!). Thanks

Actually I found my previous test:

Quote:
This may be of some interest,

The other week I wanted to see what the effects some acoustic screen material would have in front of my speakers so i set up a little measurement. I also placed one of my acoustic panels right in front of it,

I tried just the panel, just the fabric, both the panel and fabric as it sits on my wall, and I also tried velvet, this velvet would be the same stuff you get at Joannes and the like, its quite good stuff, almost as good as Fidelio.

Anyway you see the raw speaker response (Pay NO attention to the flatness of the curve, only pay attention to how it differs with the various materials), and the velvet is the red one.

p.s the acoustic fabric is not real acoustic fabric, just stuff I though would be fine to use, and it is for the purpose of a panel.

These measurements were done with the materials right in front of my speaker, so in order for any upper range audio to hit my mic, it would certainly need to pass through the material.

Thanks Javs! I went ahead and grabbed more velvet tonight and just finished installing it. Much, much better!
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post #6133 of 6220 Old 05-21-2019, 11:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddgdl View Post
I thought someone had determined that there was an adverse impact on the absorption panels from doing so? I could be misremembering
It’s not a concern at all. If the panel is pure absorption then it will already be absorbing everything in the frequency range likely to be affected by the velvet. If it’s a diffusion panel, then you might give a little more pause for thought, but even then I’d still cover them given how they look in your image (I’ve covered all 6 of my RPG BAD arcs panels along the side walls in velvet).
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post #6134 of 6220 Old 05-22-2019, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabre View Post
I would have it hard to believe it is 20 times better then what carl's is. Thats how much more expensive it is.

I didnt have problems with black/white, quite opposite, it looked great. Great increased perceived contrast.

But I did with giving out a grey cast to the image, which is to untrained eye, or casual viewer hard to pick up. And in gemeral a much much dimmer image. No pop.

But when u put up a white piece of paper on top, you see just how much everything is off compared to white.

It would need to be a miracle and definitelly well compared to throw out 5-6k on a screen without comparing with white before. Direct comparison.

In general, 6k for a screen is pure snake oil.
I have two samples of Carl's. Not anywhere close to the same thing. Carl's is low gain material and not near as smooth.
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post #6135 of 6220 Old 05-22-2019, 10:10 AM
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FYI Joann's has Royalty 3 on sale for $7.99/yd at the moment! I under calculated, or over cut, and need an extra 8 yards to finish - but going 10 because of what I just said
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post #6136 of 6220 Old 05-22-2019, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
I have two samples of Carl's. Not anywhere close to the same thing. Carl's is low gain material and not near as smooth.

I'm aware its off topic but just a quick question. How does it compare to milliskin spandex?

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post #6137 of 6220 Old 05-22-2019, 10:31 AM
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I just finished a velvet theater here.

You can really see the difference between the stretch velvet and triple black here.



However, under a normal movie watching experience, there is little difference. Here is a shot with high white image edges near the screen edges to show how little effective difference there is in the dark.





I need to paint the light cams black but that's another project for another day and not velvet related!
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post #6138 of 6220 Old 05-22-2019, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark the Red View Post
I just finished a velvet theater here.

You can really see the difference between the stretch velvet and triple black here.



However, under a normal movie watching experience, there is little difference. Here is a shot with high white image edges near the screen edges to show how little effective difference there is in the dark.





I need to paint the light cams black but that's another project for another day and not velvet related! [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif[/IMG]
I had installed velvet panels on my ceiling some time ago which are amazing and I used Phoenix Velvet. I just purchased some Triple Black Velvet for my side walls and it makes the Phoenix Velvet on my ceiling look grey in comparison.

Luckily once the projector is on it isn't as easy to tell but the Triple Black Velvet is darker and just sucks up the light!
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post #6139 of 6220 Old 05-22-2019, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabre View Post
Whats the price for 130"?

It would need to be a reallllly muuuch better, and I doubt it can be that better to fix all drawbacks.
I might be wrong, allthough my research and experiments all come to same conclusion with alr screens.
You need a major light canon to use a negative gain screen properly.
You also don't want to mount the projector too close up, as that will cause hot spotting.
With some gray screens or ALR, angle of projection can also be important.

Honestly, it's 1000x easier to just fix the room (motorized curtains, whatever you have to do), than it is to try to fight ambient light.
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post #6140 of 6220 Old 05-22-2019, 01:42 PM
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hey guys, I have a 135" screen that I am currently using and projecting from about 15 feet, but have the space to go bigger. I recently went to my friends house and he has painted his wall black and projecting floor to ceiling and now I want to do something similar.

I have the space as its an unfinished basement and if I rearrange my projector, I can put the projector further back and go bigger throw, but the problem is I dont want to buy another screen, I have cover my unfinished basement with black fabric, my question is can I project into the black fabric? pros and cons?
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post #6141 of 6220 Old 05-22-2019, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
You need a major light canon to use a negative gain screen properly.

You also don't want to mount the projector too close up, as that will cause hot spotting.

With some gray screens or ALR, angle of projection can also be important.



Honestly, it's 1000x easier to just fix the room (motorized curtains, whatever you have to do), than it is to try to fight ambient light.
Completelly agree.

Spending 6k on a screen is plain stupid, and if you have a bright room and reflections, you've thrown money to air.

I went that route, after trying grey screen, then ALR screen, went back to white and just velveted walls around screen and thats it now. And I used cheapest velvet arpund, probably aint even velvet lol
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post #6142 of 6220 Old 05-22-2019, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
You need a major light canon to use a negative gain screen properly.
You also don't want to mount the projector too close up, as that will cause hot spotting.
With some gray screens or ALR, angle of projection can also be important.

Honestly, it's 1000x easier to just fix the room (motorized curtains, whatever you have to do), than it is to try to fight ambient light.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabre View Post
Completelly agree.

Spending 6k on a screen is plain stupid, and if you have a bright room and reflections, you've thrown money to air.

I went that route, after trying grey screen, then ALR screen, went back to white and just velveted walls around screen and thats it now. And I used cheapest velvet arpund, probably aint even velvet lol
I suspect they mostly sell that screen to those who bought the $25k Sony short throw projector and have a $1m+ decor in their living room alone. $6k for the best screen is likely way cheaper than a change order into their designer. I doubt those folk are hunting down Joann's coupons
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post #6143 of 6220 Old 05-22-2019, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark the Red View Post
I just finished a velvet theater here.

You can really see the difference between the stretch velvet and triple black here.
Have you got a thread with more pics of your theatre?

Floor to ceiling screen is where its at!! Thats what I am going to do.

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post #6144 of 6220 Old 05-22-2019, 06:07 PM
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As I said, theres a lot of snake oil in there.

This is like convincing me a ferrari can be driven with 50mpg
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post #6145 of 6220 Old 05-22-2019, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by ereed View Post
I'm aware its off topic but just a quick question. How does it compare to milliskin spandex?
That I do not know. Have never compared to spandex, but from what I have read, where I believe Seymour AV compared spandex, you do not get very good sharpness with spandex, since adjoining fibers can light up.
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post #6146 of 6220 Old 05-22-2019, 09:32 PM
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@Javs

I just uploaded the thread here.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-de...3068842?page=3

You guys really sold me on velvet although I did compromise on the stretch velvet for the sound panels as it was much easier to work with / staple than the triple black.

On an unrelated note, Javs, I wanted to thank you for the projector purchase advice recommendations on the other thread, and for your Arve custom curve data and Madvr support. You truly are a person most knowledgeable in the courtroom legal sense of the word. I can only imagine how much time you spent mastering these parts of AV and appreciate you sharing it.

I'm still a little green on Madvr and struggling with some bugs, but your settings make the image look absolutely stunning when it does work.

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post #6147 of 6220 Old 05-22-2019, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
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Quote:
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I'm aware its off topic but just a quick question. How does it compare to milliskin spandex?
That I do not know. Have never compared to spandex, but from what I have read, where I believe Seymour AV compared spandex, you do not get very good sharpness with spandex, since adjoining fibers can light up.
I just used spandex for a 151" screen and I am using a very middle tier JVC projector (x590r). According to projector central I am getting 65 nits with the assumption my screen is 0.7 gain. Black milliskin overstretched with 120" white spandex over top. I needed the 120" white because regular milliskin white is not available in 120" widths and Mississippi man said if you overstretch it you get artifacts.

I will say the sharpness looks good but up close it is noticeably soft, and I am sure my projector (eshift not true 4k) is not the best for that.

I was Ok with this trade off as having a large IMAX sized screen allowed me to save a lot of time on designing an aesthetic stage and keep my speakers / subs really spread out behind a proven AT screen material that cost me $80 total.

Mississippi man recommended I stay with milliskin and go with 2:35 DIY screen but 16:9 is a large part of the media I consume, I was OK with the aforementioned sharpness tradeoffs.

It looks great from my eyes, but I am like a father judging his own children's looks here. Take my opinion with a grain of salt.

EDIT: I would also like to say that even a 4k image stretched to a 151" screen will not be as sharp just by the sheer surface area . I would assume (not an expert) that the spandex grain problem abates somewhat the larger you make the screen. Sitting 12' back from it still gives an impressive image and looks very much UHD to me.

Is there a sharpness image / movie screenshot I can share with you to help further? JVC focus green line grid image?

Last edited by Mark the Red; 05-23-2019 at 09:14 AM.
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post #6148 of 6220 Old 05-27-2019, 08:07 PM
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Vevlet wrapped baseboards okay with vacuuming?

Apart for baseboards, and a little tidying up I think I'm done with the interior of my room at last!

Regarding baseboards, for those who've velvet wrapped did you wish you'd just painted instead? I have 12ft strips of JR3 left over and so can velvet complete baseboards, but am a little worried about vacuuming marking when I run into them. For paint I'd probably use an egg shell or satin for strength - Rosco would just come off on the vacuum cleaner.


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post #6149 of 6220 Old 05-28-2019, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
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Maybe one of those "spot the differences" puzzles...
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Haha, well it's not completely finished just yet, but yes I am indeed really building this

If folks are interested when I find time I will start a new thread regarding the build. I'm also building an 'ultimate' TV & Gaming room as well. I plan on hosting some open day AV parties over the course of a number of weekends for forum members when it's all finished

BOTH rooms are going to be fully finished in black velvet, so that's all the walls, the ceiling, the ceiling bulkheads, the star ceilings, the skirtings, the architraves, the doors etc. and all door handles, door hinges, climate control grilles, sockets and switches etc. will of course be black, as will be the carpet, rugs, and seating, with the idea being to create the blackest possible environment once the lights go off and the entertainment starts

Room aesthetics will be provided via some seriously cool lighting schemes, plus the projection screen turns into an gigantic piece of artwork when the system is off that is illuminated via specialist rectangular framing projection lighting...

But I don't want to derail this thread so like I said I will start a new thread providing all the details as and when








I will look forward to read this build. Of course this is the kind of Home Cinema most of us can only dream of.... but sure it’s nice to dream a little.

Epson EH-TW9400 - QualGear Fixed Frame 100” - IPL Acoustics M1TLs & IPL Acoustics AVC Pro Centre, Four KEF surrounds & 2 Sub boxes (10” Sub + 10” Radiator)
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post #6150 of 6220 Old 05-29-2019, 03:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabre View Post
I would have it hard to believe it is 20 times better then what carl's is. Thats how much more expensive it is.

I didnt have problems with black/white, quite opposite, it looked great. Great increased perceived contrast.

But I did with giving out a grey cast to the image, which is to untrained eye, or casual viewer hard to pick up. And in gemeral a much much dimmer image. No pop.

But when u put up a white piece of paper on top, you see just how much everything is off compared to white.

It would need to be a miracle and definitelly well compared to throw out 5-6k on a screen without comparing with white before. Direct comparison.

In general, 6k for a screen is pure snake oil.

No. Home theater products are subject to the law of diminishing marginal returns. Getting something that comes very close to optimal performance almost always costs multiples of the price for a similar product that is just good enough. Some of us are picky about certain things and are willing to pay through the nose to get something that meets our standards.
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