The Blacker the Theater, The Better the Image - Page 213 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #6361 of 6383 Old 08-02-2019, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Not sure it would be worth the trouble. If willing to do all of that, I would look at triple black velvet.
I understand what you mean, I'm probably done with the ceiling.

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post #6362 of 6383 Old 08-03-2019, 07:26 AM
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OK folks my evaluation directly comparing the ROSCO SUPERSAT vs ROSCO TOUGH PRIME has been completed and here are the results

Summary information as per follows: If both the light source position and the viewing position are similar then when viewing the painted surface on axis the ROSCO SUPERSAT is blacker. ** HOWEVER ** unfortunately this set of circumstances does not correspond to the home theater environment, wherein the light source is the video display / projected image, the viewing position is the seating positions, and the painted surfaces are the ceiling and/or side walls. And with respect to the light source and viewing positions that correspond to the home theater environment the ROSCO TOUGH PRIME in almost all circumstances is blacker. The only exception is when viewing the left side wall from the righthand side of a seating row, or the right side wall from the lefthand side of a seating row; and even then only a portion of the wall is blacker with the ROSCO SUPERSAT.


CEILING PERFORMANCE:




FRONT WALL PERFORMANCE:




LEFT SIDE WALL PERFORMANCE:

LEFT SIDE WALL - VIEWED FROM LEFT SIDE OF SEATING ROW:




LEFT SIDE WALL - VIEWED FROM CENTER OF SEATING ROW:




LEFT SIDE WALL - VIEWED FROM RIGHT SIDE OF SEATING ROW:



In short, this has confirmed exactly what I discovered previously when I first compared the two paints.

I have not yet evaluated the ROSCO TV PAINT but will shortly be doing so and will similarly post my findings

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post #6363 of 6383 Old 08-03-2019, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom899 View Post
I understand what you mean, I'm probably done with the ceiling.
To give a frame of reference between The Rosco Super Sat vs triple black velvet, a few years ago I painted my 18" subs to try and blend it in my room which is primarily wrapped in velvet. It looks grey in comparison to the velvet (top part of the photo has the velvet draped over the speaker). I tried a company claiming 'best black paint ever' Black 2.0 - it's the spot just right to the bottle of paint, basically identical to the Rosco paint. I ended up wrapping the speakers in velvet.

When your ready for next level blackout, I originally had black acoustic titles and painted the grid. When I hung the velvet curtains, the ceiling was still lighting up more than I would have liked. I took down the tiles, wrapped each one in velvet and painstakingly cut out 200+ sections of the protostar adhesive flocking (used for telescope lining but works excellent with HT apps as well) and covered the grid with the material. Now the ceiling completely disappears during viewing. I have a relatively large 142" screen that is close to the ceiling so this helped quite a bit for the goal of total black.

https://www.fpi-protostar.com/hitack.htm



Good luck with the rest of your blackout project. Seeing absolutely nothing in the room besides the screen/movie is an amazing experience and never gets old.
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post #6364 of 6383 Old 08-03-2019, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
To give a frame of reference between The Rosco Super Sat vs triple black velvet, a few years ago I painted my 18" subs to try and blend it in my room which is primarily wrapped in velvet. It looks grey in comparison to the velvet (top part of the photo has the velvet draped over the speaker). I tried a company claiming 'best black paint ever' Black 2.0 - it's the spot just right to the bottle of paint, basically identical to the Rosco paint. I ended up wrapping the speakers in velvet.

When your ready for next level blackout, I originally had black acoustic titles and painted the grid. When I hung the velvet curtains, the ceiling was still lighting up more than I would have liked. I took down the tiles, wrapped each one in velvet and painstakingly cut out 200+ sections of the protostar adhesive flocking (used for telescope lining but works excellent with HT apps as well) and covered the grid with the material. Now the ceiling completely disappears during viewing. I have a relatively large 142" screen that is close to the ceiling so this helped quite a bit for the goal of total black.

https://www.fpi-protostar.com/hitack.htm



Good luck with the rest of your blackout project. Seeing absolutely nothing in the room besides the screen/movie is an amazing experience and never gets old.
For sure, black velvet is the best. I found that out when I covered my speakers, subs, and curtains. Those surfaces just disappear. Mike is right. I won't go through the trouble of painting anything over my Rosco, fabric is the next step and takes it to another level.
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post #6365 of 6383 Old 08-03-2019, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom899 View Post
For sure, black velvet is the best. I found that out when I covered my speakers, subs, and curtains. Those surfaces just disappear. Mike is right. I won't go through the trouble of painting anything over my Rosco, fabric is the next step and takes it to another level.
VELVET > FLOCKING > PAINT

The blackest velvet is the Whaley's Devore, however this ships from the UK. The Triple Black Velvet is the best option with respect to shipping from the United States.

The blackest flocking is Protostar and DC-Fix. Protostar for United States; DC-Fix for UK and Europe.

The blacked paint is the ROSCO Tough Prime.

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post #6366 of 6383 Old 08-03-2019, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
VELVET > FLOCKING > PAINT

The blackest velvet is the Whaley's Devore, however this ships from the UK. The Triple Black Velvet is the best option with respect to shipping from the United States.

The blackest flocking is Protostar and DC-Fix. Protostar for United States; DC-Fix for UK and Europe.

The blacked paint is the ROSCO Tough Prime.

I used Triple Black Velvet for covering my speakers, subs, and wall curtains. Very satisfied, completely disappears to my eyes.

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post #6367 of 6383 Old 08-03-2019, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Tom899 View Post
I used Triple Black Velvet for covering my speakers, subs, and wall curtains. Very satisfied, completely disappears to my eyes.
Yes, it's very good. In case you missed it here's my evaluation and review of the top 3 velvet materials, wherein with respect to the primary application of side walls, ceilings, and speakers etc. (which is the first / top photo below) the Whaley's and the Triple Black Velvet are very very close in performance

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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
This is with respect to replicating the light source direction and viewing position that you would experience in a home theater. In other words, all the velvet fabrics, which are all directional, are positioned with light sources eminating from in front, washing across the fabric, with you perceiving from the rear; which is essentially what will be happening with projected image, walls/ceiling, and viewing position:



In this regard the WHALEY'S very slightly outperforms the TRIPLE BLACK VELVET, the both of which outperform the FIDELIO


And here's the comparative performances when viewed head on perpendicular, with an additional light source positioned in front:




In this instance, the WHALEY'S very, very slightly outperforms the FIDELIO, the both of which outperform the TRIPLE BLACK VELVET.

ALL of these materials have a sheen, but it is directional, so is typically on visible when viewed from the 'wrong direction'. It is therefore very important to position the fabric in the 'right direction'. The Fidelio is the least prone with respect to a sheen.

Whilst the Triple Black Velvet performs almost as good as the Whaley's when used for side walls and ceilings, it does not perform as good as either the Whaley's or the Fidelio when viewed head on perpendicular, wherein you can see its sheen a bit as well, so personally I would not choose to use it for the front wall, screen frame, or screen masking; where I would use either the Whaley's for Fidelio for this instead. And in fact, due to fact it is least prone with respect to a sheen, and performs almost the same as the Whaley's when viewed perpendicularly head on, I consider the Fidelio the best material of choice for screen frames and non-acoustically transparent screen masking. The Whaley's has good acoustical transparency and is the only of the three fabrics to do so.

The Triple Black Velvet is excellent for side walls and ceilings and I really think that in the darkened environment of a home theater you won't be able to perceive any difference as compared with the Whaley's; but if used for the front wall, screen frame, or screen masking you will

Consequently, I rank the performance of these materials with respect to home theater usage as per follows:


SIDE WALLS AND CEILINGS:

1st = WHALEY'S
2nd = TRIPLE BLACK VELVET
3rd = FIDELIO



FRONT WALL:

1st = WHALEY'S
2nd = FIDELIO
3rd = TRIPLE BLACK VELVET



SCREEN FRAME AND NON-ACOUSTICALLY TRANSPARENT MASKING:

1st = FIDELIO
2nd = WHALEY'S
3rd = TRIPLE BLACK VELVET
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post #6368 of 6383 Old 08-05-2019, 10:42 AM
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How to people handle proper sound absorbing acoustical panels in a room treated to be ultra black? If the best fabrics are not acoustically transparent enough do you just say screw it and compromise all the work in getting a blacker than black room?
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post #6369 of 6383 Old 08-05-2019, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
VELVET > FLOCKING > PAINT

The blackest velvet is the Whaley's Devore, however this ships from the UK. The Triple Black Velvet is the best option with respect to shipping from the United States.

The blackest flocking is Protostar and DC-Fix. Protostar for United States; DC-Fix for UK and Europe.

The blacked paint is the ROSCO Tough Prime.

Probably not worth my re-painting but great info for folks just building a theater for sure. Thanks !
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post #6370 of 6383 Old 08-05-2019, 10:30 PM
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How to people handle proper sound absorbing acoustical panels in a room treated to be ultra black? If the best fabrics are not acoustically transparent enough do you just say screw it and compromise all the work in getting a blacker than black room?
The WHALEY'S black velvet devore is very acoustically transparent and could be used for this purpose. It is is also the blackest and least light reflective velvet material in the world in most circumstances

You have to order it from the UK though. However, they do ship internationally.

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post #6371 of 6383 Old 08-06-2019, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom899 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
VELVET > FLOCKING > PAINT

The blackest velvet is the Whaley's Devore, however this ships from the UK. The Triple Black Velvet is the best option with respect to shipping from the United States.

The blackest flocking is Protostar and DC-Fix. Protostar for United States; DC-Fix for UK and Europe.

The blacked paint is the ROSCO Tough Prime.

<img src="https://www.avsforum.com/forum/images/AVSForum/smilies/tango_face_wink.png" border="0" alt="" title="Wink" class="inlineimg" />
I used Triple Black Velvet for covering my speakers, subs, and wall curtains. Very satisfied, completely disappears to my eyes.
I used triple black velvet to cover my speakers and sub and also have curtains on the side walls. The velvet is awesome and extremely black.

I also have velvet ceiling panels which I used a different velvet and they also work great but look grey in comparison to the triple black velvet.
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post #6372 of 6383 Old 08-06-2019, 11:42 AM
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How does this Crushed Panne Velour Black - https://www.morexfabrics.com/crushed...k-width-58-60/

Compare to the Amazon/Syfabrics Triple Black?

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post #6373 of 6383 Old 08-06-2019, 11:56 AM
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How does this Crushed Panne Velour Black - https://www.morexfabrics.com/crushed...k-width-58-60/

Compare to the Amazon/Syfabrics Triple Black?
I can't remember if this is the fabric I bought. It was a crushed velvet, and WAY too shiny to be useful up front. I haven't found a way to brush it to improve things, either. Because of that, I've decided to stay away from anything with "crushed" in the name.
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post #6374 of 6383 Old 08-09-2019, 04:32 AM
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Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
The WHALEY'S black velvet devore is very acoustically transparent and could be used for this purpose. It is is also the blackest and least light reflective velvet material in the world in most circumstances

You have to order it from the UK though. However, they do ship internationally.

I just had 10m of Whaley's devore black velvet delivered, it's for acoustic panels, bass traps that will border my screen, thanks for the nudge in the right direction.

Wow is this stuff black..

I'm hoping to get some measurements done in the next few days to see how acoustically transparent it is, any specific test requests?
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post #6375 of 6383 Old 08-10-2019, 01:56 AM
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I have a question for people who have experience installing Devore. I ordered 60 meters of Devore and I plan on doing the whole room with it. However I'm having a bit of hard time figuring which is the correct "direction" of installing it. I've read that if you install it in wrong direction, the light absorption is much worse compared to when installed in proper orientation.

I have been trying to point light at the Devore from various angles with the cloth being in various orientations, and I have to say that in all situations when pointing the light from certain position it seems it reflects some amount of light. I'm probably doing the testing/measuring wrong way

My plan is to install the Devore vertically in walls. I have studs going around the room every meter or so, and I plan on cutting ~2,5 meter pieces and attaching vertical strips going from ceiling to the floor. Is this a good way of installing? I guess I just have to make sure that I put the Devore the right way and not "upside down"? Or would it be better idea to also make horizontal studs between the vertical studs and instead install the Devore going from one side of the room to other with horizontal strips instead?

Any help appreciated!
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post #6376 of 6383 Old 08-10-2019, 02:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Reko Tiira View Post
I have a question for people who have experience installing Devore. I ordered 60 meters of Devore and I plan on doing the whole room with it. However I'm having a bit of hard time figuring which is the correct "direction" of installing it. I've read that if you install it in wrong direction, the light absorption is much worse compared to when installed in proper orientation.

I have been trying to point light at the Devore from various angles with the cloth being in various orientations, and I have to say that in all situations when pointing the light from certain position it seems it reflects some amount of light. I'm probably doing the testing/measuring wrong way

My plan is to install the Devore vertically in walls. I have studs going around the room every meter or so, and I plan on cutting ~2,5 meter pieces and attaching vertical strips going from ceiling to the floor. Is this a good way of installing? I guess I just have to make sure that I put the Devore the right way and not "upside down"? Or would it be better idea to also make horizontal studs between the vertical studs and instead install the Devore going from one side of the room to other with horizontal strips instead?

Any help appreciated!
Ideally you want to replicate the fabric, light source, and viewing positions as they will be in your home theater. The way I go about things is to test the material by hanging / temporarily affixing a sample to one of the side walls, and then arrange matters such that the only light source in the room is the video display / projected image, or if you have no video display installed yet then position a light in the middle of your front wall facing forwards into the room so as to replicate light emission from a video display / projected image. Then, view the fabric from your seating position. If you see any sheen or light reflection then rotate the fabric to deduce the correct direction wherein there is no light reflection


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post #6377 of 6383 Old 08-12-2019, 09:04 AM
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I got a spare 5 minutes to measure the Whaleys' devore.

This is an average of 3 sweeps of my centre channel without the velvet and the average of 3 sweeps with a single layer of it draped in front of the speaker. You can see some attenuation, most significantly above 2kHz but for acoustic panels it should be fine. Even as speaker cloth you could probably EQ is out with little trouble.

Please ignore the general state of the sweep, that's why I'm building bass traps, it's only the difference that matters here after all.
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post #6378 of 6383 Old 08-15-2019, 04:20 PM
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What about just cotton black matte bed sheets?
Black walmart sheets are ok in a pinch, but they look kind of sloppy and are only slightly above average as to how dark they really are.

I have most of my room covered in Triple Black Velvet, except the back and part of the side wall.
I had very dark curtains on the back wall, but now I installed an extra shelf as a second mount for a third projector, so now I need to redo the back wall. I've looked at various samples online, and I think TBV is still the way to go.

Since I don't want to rip up my existing curtains by punching a hole in them, probably going to Walmart or Target to get the cheapest darkest black curtains I can find. i think the darkest material that looks ok for cheap for covering a back wall is probably just cheap dept. store curtains, just find the blackest ones they sell. Won't be as good as TBV, but fine for a back wall. That would save some money. Just tack them directly, it's easy.

I may eventually do the back in TBV as well, but not really needed unless I decide to do it for aesthetic reasons alone.

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post #6379 of 6383 Old 08-15-2019, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARROW-AV View Post
VELVET > FLOCKING > PAINT

The blackest velvet is the Whaley's Devore, however this ships from the UK. The Triple Black Velvet is the best option with respect to shipping from the United States.

The blackest flocking is Protostar and DC-Fix.
The Fidelio really appears to be flocked velvet repackaged, but maybe they make it themselves. I have said this before and some people didn't think so, but the pictures look exactly like generic black flocked velvet. Flocked velvet shows lint more (well the stuff I tried) and it will not look as good on the wall aesthetically with the lights on. Flocked velvet is more durable and less susceptible to wrinkles, but that comes at the price of aesthetics and showing lint.

At the end of the day, these differences are tiny as far as what materials absorb the most light, but TBV is also the aesthetic champ compared to most materials i have seen.

As far as Protostar or DC fix being the darkest adhesive, I don't think so, generally some no namebrand stuff I found on Ebay for about 1/4th the price which was 95% as dark as TBV, so close you cannot tell the difference unless you shine a flash light directly on it. The Protostar sample I had was about 20% lighter than the generic adhesive black velvet.

Some of these differences might simply be inconsistencies in the dying process or sunlight exposure from poor shipping procedures, or even material age or humidity.

You can get away with a bit more than people think when designing the front surface around the screen, hence you will not see a huge difference between Triple Black and any other material as the screen frame, not unless you overshoot the image onto your border, you certainly won't be able to tell with just the black bars. I know because i have brown leather below the screen, and i can just barely (and i mean barely) tell the difference between the brown leather and the triple black, and the brown leather is like 25 shades brighter. So 1 shade brighter is invisible, maybe if you are watching an ocean scene in torch mode (maybe), but 99% of the time forget it.

For the average sized room, the side walls and ceiling (or floor) do the most damage to the image as they are in our direct peripheral vision. It goes like this (# 1 ceiling, floor, or side walls - depends on distance from screen, usually it's the side walls reflecting the most in the majority of our setups). Technically, in some fully darkened rooms the back wall will be the worst offender if going by pure amount of light being reflected, but it also has less effect on the room since it's behind you and has to re-reflect all the way back across the black material from the rest of the room.

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post #6380 of 6383 Old 08-16-2019, 07:27 AM
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Been steadily working on my "Man Cave" which has a full 11.2.4 Atmos setup with a BenQ HT3550 4K and a 110" Silver Ticket Fixed Frame Screen. Finally decided to paint my ceiling black and WHAT A FREAKING DIFFERENCE!

The difference is not subtle at all. Its DRAMATIC! Never new how much the white ceiling was not only a distraction but washed the image out. Now, with the lights on, the room feels much smaller but when the lights are off, everything seems bigger and the ceiling disappears. Better contrast as well despite the various issues I am having with my PJ.

Next task is to build bass traps in the corners with OC 703 and cover the front wall in velvet. Great information in this thread!

Thanks all!
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post #6381 of 6383 Old 08-17-2019, 05:55 AM
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Originally Posted by coderguy View Post
The Fidelio really appears to be flocked velvet repackaged, but maybe they make it themselves. I have said this before and some people didn't think so, but the pictures look exactly like generic black flocked velvet. Flocked velvet shows lint more (well the stuff I tried) and it will not look as good on the wall aesthetically with the lights on. Flocked velvet is more durable and less susceptible to wrinkles, but that comes at the price of aesthetics and showing lint.
Nah man I dont think this is flocked velvet repackaged. Its got a really high and deep pile. Its on my screen frame and looks and feels really good. There is absolutely zero lint from it.

Here is a good pic showing it. Fidelio is my screen frame. Flocked velvet is the panel behind and to the right of it. And the Australian Double Velvet is on the ceiling.



Another, this is labeled triple velvet but its not, we call it double velvet here, its got a really high and deep pile also and its fairly thick.

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Last edited by Javs; 08-17-2019 at 06:00 AM.
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post #6382 of 6383 Old 08-17-2019, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by rontalley View Post
Been steadily working on my "Man Cave" which has a full 11.2.4 Atmos setup with a BenQ HT3550 4K and a 110" Silver Ticket Fixed Frame Screen. Finally decided to paint my ceiling black and WHAT A FREAKING DIFFERENCE!



The difference is not subtle at all. Its DRAMATIC! Never new how much the white ceiling was not only a distraction but washed the image out. Now, with the lights on, the room feels much smaller but when the lights are off, everything seems bigger and the ceiling disappears. Better contrast as well despite the various issues I am having with my PJ.



Next task is to build bass traps in the corners with OC 703 and cover the front wall in velvet. Great information in this thread!



Thanks all!
Now paint the floor. lol

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post #6383 of 6383 Old 08-17-2019, 11:43 AM
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Now paint the floor. lol
or use Black Shag Rugs.
And Cover up that painted ceiling with black velvet...

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