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post #31 of 139 Old 07-23-2013, 07:08 PM
 
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

Of course, I know how jvcs look and I had one the past three years. I should chose something else because you say so? If I can see the others, I'm going to choose something I know and like. People who seen all those projectors still own a jvc, they are crazy too? Many members seen many, many projectors and still own a jvc.

I have owned four different JVCs and don't plan on keep one. They are nice for the money, but I don't think they have the same kind of picture quality a good DLP projector has. Don't be a follower, try and view some for yourself and make your own assessment. JVCs aren't for me after seeing some the projectors I've seen. You may surprise yourself and make the same assessment after seeing some too.

My point here is that you scoff the suggestion that something else might be better without having seen them for yourself. The reasons some reviewers own a JVC are different from why I own a DLP. There are many things a JVC can't do that great a DLP can. Unless you get a cherry picked unit, you're looking at less than perfect convergence, bright corners, less than ideal motion handling, sub-par 3D, recurring lamp issues, lesser brightness uniformity over DLP, less than half ANSI contrast over DLP, lower quality lens, ect.

I personally value those things more than absolute contrast performance. My Planar PD8150 gives me blacks that look black, so my requirement for black level and contrast has been met. I then get the other benefits that I had just mentioned. I find the overall experience better.
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post #32 of 139 Old 07-23-2013, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

I have owned four different JVCs and don't plan on keep one. They are nice for the money, but I don't think they have the same kind of picture quality a good DLP projector has. Don't be a follower, try and view some for yourself and make your own assessment. JVCs aren't for me after seeing some the projectors I've seen. You may surprise yourself and make the same assessment after seeing some too.

My point here is that you scoff the suggestion that something else might be better without having seen one for yourself.

I would not spend thousands of dollars on a projector that someone thinks is better just because.Unless I'm doing an A/B comparison, I'm going to choose something I like basically. I use my Benq a lot more than my jvc, but for movies, I watch the jvc. Unless someone can show me a dlp i can buy under $8000 that looks better than the jvc mid to high end model, I'm going to choose a jvc.
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post #33 of 139 Old 07-23-2013, 07:23 PM
 
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Keep putting your foot in your mouth. No one is going to show you. You'd need to demo them for yourself like I and many others have. I'm telling you that you can get better picture quality, albeit less contrast performance (but that's with every projector not just DLP ones), with some DLP models. They are out there. To name a few;

Marantz VP-11S1, Marantz VP-15S1, Marantz VP-11S2, Sharp XV-Z20000, Samsung SP-A900B, and the Planar PD8150/Runco LS-5.

But this is getting off topic. The OP is talking black level/contrast comparable to a JVC. The Lumis is going to be as good as it gets and only one comparable to the JVCs.
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post #34 of 139 Old 07-23-2013, 07:24 PM
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Give me the model numbers and make of the projectors you think is better than the high end jvc that is under $8000. I want to try to see some. I especially want to see a 3 chip dlp in someones HT. I since the Sony 1000ES and its an excellent projector but it didn't make me want to spend 3-4x what I got my rs55 for. Some say its night and day difference, but I trust my own eyes and pockets a lot more than the next man
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post #35 of 139 Old 07-23-2013, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

Keep putting your foot in your mouth. No one is going to show you. You'd need to demo them for yourself like I and many others have. I'm telling you that you can get better picture quality, albeit less contrast performance (but that's with every projector not just DLP ones), with some DLP models. They are out there. To name a few;

Marantz VP-11S1, Marantz VP-15S1, Marantz VP-11S2, Sharp XV-Z20000, Samsung SP-A900B, and the Planar PD8150/Runco LS-5.

How am I putting my foot in my mouth for projectors i never seen and don't know where to see them at.
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post #36 of 139 Old 07-23-2013, 07:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by blee0120 View Post

How am I putting my foot in my mouth for projectors i never seen and don't know where to see them at.

Because you keep insinuating that the JVC is better without having seen any of the competition. Sure, there are reviewers who own JVCs but that doesn't mean they are the best. Each person has their own personal take on what they want in their projector. Take someone like Mark Haflich. Before he owned his Sony VPL-VW1000ES he didn't own a JVC. He owned a Samsung SP-A900B. He owned a high end A/V store, worked for AVScience, and has seen basically any and every popular projector on the market and he owned......... a DLP?!?! There are many others on this forum who have seen JVCs and each year they see the new ones and continue to own their DLP models because they simply don't see how they are better or the best. There are a LOT of JVC owners here simply because they are a great bang for the buck, they get talked about constantly and recommended constantly. This gets translated into "best" even though they have their fair share of issues. If they used a slightly nicer lens to boost sharpness and ANSI contrast and get motion handling to Sony's level I will gladly ditch my Planar PD8150 and become a JVC fanboy. Until then I will state that I think my projector is overall a better product and can be had for the same amount a mid-range JVC can be had for.
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post #37 of 139 Old 07-23-2013, 07:59 PM
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I been trying to say, that I will continue to buy a jvc because they have been really good in my experience. I haven't seen the others, so my trust is in jvc. If I was to see something else, then I can make the judgement. I even asked you for dlps that you think is better so I can try to see them. I got your list, now I can try to see them
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post #38 of 139 Old 07-23-2013, 10:26 PM
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I think a lot of this has to do with personal preference as well. I had a Samsung A900B and while it was sharp and the ANSI CR was better than my RS40, I prefer the RS40 hands down vs the A900B but that is just what my eyes prefer. I don't have a problem with motion on the JVC and I can't see 3D so for 2D movie viewing the JVC suits me perfectly. For those that prefer the A900B over a RS40 I wouldn't argue with their choice as their eyes might appreciate the attributes of DLP over LCOS.

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post #39 of 139 Old 07-23-2013, 11:14 PM
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Give me the model numbers and make of the projectors you think is better than the high end jvc that is under $8000. I want to try to see some. I especially want to see a 3 chip dlp in someones HT. I since the Sony 1000ES and its an excellent projector but it didn't make me want to spend 3-4x what I got my rs55 for. Some say its night and day difference, but I trust my own eyes and pockets a lot more than the next man

I can give you makes and model numbers , but they will be for projectors that cost $ 20K - $ 60K.

Some people will say no projector is worth that much. To each his own . I have a friend that doesn't believe any wine is worth $ 100 / bottle. Fair enough. I don't drink $100 bottles of wine with her any more.

All kidding aside, any JVC projector would not be able to light up my screen bright enough for my tastes - for the foot lamberts I want ( without high gain screen tricks which IMO ruin the picture for me ), I need to start with 1000 - 1100 calibrated lumens. The JVC's brightness when new is near the middle or end of my projectors bulb life. At 450 - 500 lumens, my lamps are unusable for me. Too dim. Time to throw them in the trash. That is one of the big differences right there.

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post #40 of 139 Old 07-23-2013, 11:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

I can give you makes and model numbers , but they will be for projectors that cost $ 20K - $ 60K.

Some people will say no projector is worth that much. To each his own . I have a friend that doesn't believe any wine is worth $ 100 / bottle. Fair enough. I don't drink $100 bottles of wine with her any more.

All kidding aside, any JVC projector would not be able to light up my screen bright enough for my tastes - for the foot lamberts I want ( without high gain screen tricks which IMO ruin the picture for me ), I need to start with 1000 - 1100 calibrated lumens. The JVC's brightness when new is near the middle or end of my projectors bulb life. At 450 - 500 lumens, my lamps are unusable for me. Too dim. Time to throw them in the trash. That is one of the big differences right there.

That is what I was saying, 3 chip DLPs are much more than people can afford. Most just can't afford expensive projectors. Of course they are better than a jvc, with the price difference, it should be.
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post #41 of 139 Old 07-23-2013, 11:59 PM
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Trying to compare a $5K~$8K projector against a $50K (or even more) isn't right at all !

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post #42 of 139 Old 07-24-2013, 06:45 AM
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Trying to compare a $5K~$8K projector against a $50K (or even more) isn't right at all !

Sure it is, just because you can afford a a $50k projector doesn't mean you should blindly buy one that much. Due diligence says you most certainly should compare a $5k projector to a $50k projector in order to judge if there is a difference to your eyes and if that difference is worth it to your wallet.
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post #43 of 139 Old 07-24-2013, 07:46 AM
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Just a couple of points.
First the RS20 was a fine projector when it was a current model 4 years ago, but has on/off CR and black levels similar to the current entry-level JVC models. I would rather see the RS65/X95 used for the comparison since those models represent JVC's current best effort for providing high on/off CR.

JVC's DILA projectors have never had high ANSI CR. This is one area where the better DLPs have always been better.

Actually if I were considering spending the kind of $$$$ required for a 3-chip Sim2 Lumis, the Sony VW1000es would be the projector to compare against.

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post #44 of 139 Old 07-24-2013, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

I can give you makes and model numbers , but they will be for projectors that cost $ 20K - $ 60K.

Some people will say no projector is worth that much. To each his own . I have a friend that doesn't believe any wine is worth $ 100 / bottle. Fair enough. I don't drink $100 bottles of wine with her any more.

All kidding aside, any JVC projector would not be able to light up my screen bright enough for my tastes - for the foot lamberts I want ( without high gain screen tricks which IMO ruin the picture for me ), I need to start with 1000 - 1100 calibrated lumens. The JVC's brightness when new is near the middle or end of my projectors bulb life. At 450 - 500 lumens, my lamps are unusable for me. Too dim. Time to throw them in the trash. That is one of the big differences right there.

The 3 chippers are brighter, but the LCOS projectors like JVC and Sony are not as dim as you are thinking. A calibrated RS45 at mid zoom with a new lamp was measured to have 892 lumens: http://www.projectorreviews.com/jvc/dla-rs45/performance.php#bright The Sony HW50ES was measured to have 992 calibrated mid zoom lumens. http://www.projectorreviews.com/sony/hw50es/performance.php#bright The JVC is not far from your 1,000/1,100 needed and the Sony is on the edge. Granted, I would love to have a good 3 chip projector, but price is the limiting factor for many of us. This year the JVC lamps dim at a much slower rate, unlike last year, so that is helping the situation regarding brightness.
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post #45 of 139 Old 07-24-2013, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

The 3 chippers are brighter, but the LCOS projectors like JVC and Sony are not as dim as you are thinking. A calibrated RS45 at mid zoom with a new lamp was measured to have 892 lumens: http://www.projectorreviews.com/jvc/dla-rs45/performance.php#bright The Sony HW50ES was measured to have 992 calibrated mid zoom lumens. http://www.projectorreviews.com/sony/hw50es/performance.php#bright The JVC is not far from your 1,000/1,100 needed and the Sony is on the edge. Granted, I would love to have a good 3 chip projector, but price is the limiting factor for many of us. This year the JVC lamps dim at a much slower rate, unlike last year, so that is helping the situation regarding brightness.

I measured my rs55 at max zoom and it was 1050 and my rs48 was 950 at max zoom. Not as dim as previous models. Still not as bright as a 3 chipper tho
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post #46 of 139 Old 07-24-2013, 10:10 AM
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I've owned a Marantz S4 and 11S1, a Planar 8150 and I've used the Samsung A900 for an extended period. I've also owned quite a few of the BenQ DLP 1080p models. I've had extensive viewing times with the Sharp projectors and many demos of the high end Sim2 stuff. I can say without hesitation that I'd still take my JVC X75 over any of them. My previous RS35 bested both the Samsung and Planar in every way except motion (the older JVCs had issues with motion contouring, which is well documented) including pixel focus and chromatic abberation. The only thing we could get the Samsung to look sharper on was PC text. ANSI contrast measured higher on both of the DLPs but we could not find a single scene that translated to the DLPs looking better in this regard. But the amount of scenes where the JVC had better dynamic range and blacks was endless. My X75 has perfect convergence, outstanding pixel focus and no signs of chromatic abberation. Blacks look spectacular and the image is bright and punchy on my 120" Studiotek 130 screen (14fL). I have yet to see any DLP that delivers an image this good, including cost no object Sim2 models (which are definitely brighter, but I don't need that brightness). Don't get me wrong, most of the DLPs I've mentioned are outstanding projectors (I still think the Planar 8150 is a steal if you can get hold of one, absolutely spectacular projector) but I'd keep my JVC over any of them.

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post #47 of 139 Old 07-24-2013, 10:20 AM
 
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My X75 has perfect convergence, outstanding pixel focus and no signs of chromatic abberation.

Most people don't get a golden sample though. My previous 4 JVCs have never had perfect convergence and the lens varied from unit to unit. The X3 I had was probably the best out of all four units in both convergence and lens sample and it did look very sharp. Motion is definitely better since the RS40/X3 came out but it still leaves me wanting more. For a JVC to work properly you need PERFECT room conditions closely resembling your room. For instance, I just moved into a new apartment with all white walls and it completely kills the JVC "better blacks" experience. Even with my HP screen and its retro-reflective properties, stray light is killing the experience. If you don't have optimal room conditions the amount of contrast these JVCs have over everything else is wasted.

As a reviewer, do you feel that units are hand selected to be sent to you for review? If this is the case, do you feel this is a fair representation of what the projector actually is or something that only a small percentage of users will actually experience if they're lucky enough to receive a golden sample as well?
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post #48 of 139 Old 07-24-2013, 10:26 AM
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JVC DLA-X70R Projector - Post Calibration

Brightness:

DLA-X70R Best mode- User 1: 748 lumens @ 6528

http://www.projectorreviews.com/jvc/dla-x70r/performance.php

Calibrated your RS55 doesn't seem as bright as your getting, although they may have theirs set up at mid zoom. Certainly the current JVC's are not that bright, calibrated.
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Actually if I were considering spending the kind of $$$$ required for a 3-chip Sim2 Lumis, the Sony VW1000es would be the projector to compare against.

Today that is true. The VW 1000 wasn't around when that previous comparison was done.
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First the RS20 was a fine projector when it was a current model 4 years ago, but has on/off CR and black levels similar to the current entry-level JVC models. I would rather see the RS65/X95 used for the comparison since those models represent JVC's current best effort for providing high on/off CR.

Of course the SIM Lumis has been much improved since then too - I believe it currently has 10 bit processing, and the Super Lumis has even more brightness. I've been told the current Lumis 3D Solo has the best 3D you've ever seen too, just FYI.
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JVC's DILA projectors have never had high ANSI CR. This is one area where the better DLPs have always been better.

This is one area that makes a really good DLP projector looks different ( IMO ) from other technologies. It's a subject that's been argued to death in the past. And apparently it's hard to measure. You can't measure what makes the most beautiful women in the world more attractive than other women either. But I sure know it when I see it ( hot women and high ANSI contrast ) ! biggrin.gif

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post #49 of 139 Old 07-24-2013, 10:32 AM
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Blacks look spectacular and the image is bright and punchy on my 120" Studiotek 130 screen (14fL).

If you had a bigger screen, or liked to watch a brighter picture ( I prefer 18 - 24 foot lamberts ), it might be a different story Kris. smile.gif

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post #50 of 139 Old 07-24-2013, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

Most people don't get a golden sample though. My previous 4 JVCs have never had perfect convergence and the lens varied from unit to unit. The X3 I had was probably the best out of all four units in both convergence and lens sample and it did look very sharp. Motion is definitely better since the RS40/X3 came out but it still leaves me wanting more. For a JVC to work properly you need PERFECT room conditions closely resembling your room. For instance, I just moved into a new apartment with all white walls and it completely kills the JVC "better blacks" experience. Even with my HP screen and its retro-reflective properties, stray light is killing the experience. If you don't have optimal room conditions the amount of contrast these JVCs have over everything else is wasted.

As a reviewer, do you feel that units are hand selected to be sent to you for review? If this is the case, do you feel this is a fair representation of what the projector actually is or something that only a small percentage of users will actually experience if they're lucky enough to receive a golden sample as well?

Have you owned any jvc that wasn't an entry level? There was a good difference from the x3 to the x70
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post #51 of 139 Old 07-24-2013, 10:36 AM
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Isn't that the case with all projectors though? If you had one of the Sim2 projectors on a screen smaller than mine you'd probably hate it (way too bright, horrible blacks). Anyone looking for a projector should ALWAYS take the viewing conditions and situation into account FIRST and FOREMOST. This is why a lot of these threads are useless since the variables change with almost every type of install. Eventually I'll have a room with a bigger screen and may reconsider what I want from a projector, but with my room size and screen I can't think of anything better.

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post #52 of 139 Old 07-24-2013, 10:38 AM
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Cine4home.com measured the x70 at 920 and x75 at 900. Still not bright enough for you, but good brightness with a manual iris to lower if too bright
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post #53 of 139 Old 07-24-2013, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

Unless you get a cherry picked unit, you're looking at less than perfect convergence, bright corners, less than ideal motion handling, sub-par 3D, recurring lamp issues, lesser brightness uniformity over DLP, less than half ANSI contrast over DLP, lower quality lens, ect.

 

I think it's rather disingenuous to suggest DLP doesn't suffer from its own related set of issues. A few I saw looking over the last several DLPs I installed...

 

  • Chromatic aberration - at times worse than panel miss alignment.
  • Focus uniformity - outer edge pixels fuzzy.
  • Rainbows.
  • Image pulsing - center and right side of the image pulses (on multiple units).
  • Jet engine noise level.
  • Pixel structure more visible.

 

Personally, I have owned roughly 50/50 and any blanket statement is rather crazy in my eyes.. simply shows an agenda regardless of how ingenuous.


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post #54 of 139 Old 07-24-2013, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

As a reviewer, do you feel that units are hand selected to be sent to you for review? If this is the case, do you feel this is a fair representation of what the projector actually is or something that only a small percentage of users will actually experience if they're lucky enough to receive a golden sample as well?

God do I ever wish. I can say without a doubt that the units I receive are NOT hand picked by any stretch of the imagination. I've actually had to send back review samples several times from several manufacturers (including Sony and JVC) because the units were not even close to acceptable in terms of convergence. And anyone buying one should consider the same course of action if they find the same thing. My current X75 was purchased from a JVC dealer and was not hand picked. My last RS35 from bought from a JVC distributor and was a B-stock and was about as perfect as you could ever hope for. The only projector I've ever owned that was literally hand picked for the best possible contrast and lens was my Planar 8150.

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post #55 of 139 Old 07-24-2013, 10:58 AM
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Isn't that the case with all projectors though? If you had one of the Sim2 projectors on a screen smaller than mine you'd probably hate it (way too bright, horrible blacks). Anyone looking for a projector should ALWAYS take the viewing conditions and situation into account FIRST and FOREMOST. This is why a lot of these threads are useless since the variables change with almost every type of install. Eventually I'll have a room with a bigger screen and may reconsider what I want from a projector, but with my room size and screen I can't think of anything better.

Absolutely true Kris. Many times people don't take the viewing conditions / screen size into account. If there was a perfect one size fits all projector, we'd all own it. Wouldn't that be boring!

Funny thing is, my Lumis may well wind up being the least expensive projector I've ever owned. Why? I'm just perfectly satisfied with the picture, in my room, on my screens, and have no desire to upgrade until 4K is fairly mature. I am finding that changing my screen material and improving my room has had much more of an impact on giving me a better picture than changing projectors every 2 years would have. smile.gif

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post #56 of 139 Old 07-24-2013, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

Absolutely true Kris. Many times people don't take the viewing conditions / screen size into account. If there was a perfect one size fits all projector, we'd all own it. Wouldn't that be boring!

Funny thing is, my Lumis may well wind up being the least expensive projector I've ever owned. Why? I'm just perfectly satisfied with the picture, in my room, on my screens, and have no desire to upgrade until 4K is fairly mature. I am finding that changing my screen material and improving my room has had much more of an impact on giving me a better picture than changing projectors every 2 years would have. smile.gif

And that is why you have been working on the audio side of your HT. smile.gif
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post #57 of 139 Old 07-24-2013, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post

Funny thing is, my Lumis may well wind up being the least expensive projector I've ever owned. Why? I'm just perfectly satisfied with the picture, in my room, on my screens, and have no desire to upgrade until 4K is fairly mature.

That's about where I am with my Planar 8150. It's the most expensive projector I've had, but I'm getting close (if not there already) to having owned it as long as all my prior projectors put together. Though I can't say I'm perfectly satisfied, it does throw a great picture, one good enough that I can't surmount the hurdles to upgrading, either the cost of a Lumis/Mico/etc or uncertainty over whether I would like something like a JVC picture (I suspect I'm like Seegs or you who enjoy the attributes of a DLP over raw contrast).
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post #58 of 139 Old 07-24-2013, 11:06 AM
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I know how you feel. I was extremelly happy with my RS35 and the only reason I upgraded to the X75 was the complete removal of banding in the image. It was the only thing that bothered me with the RS35 and JVC has gotten rid of it completely with the last two model lines. I have no doubt that 4K done well will look fantastic, but I also see all the growing pains that will be associated with it (actual media worth owning, a true delivery system for all studios, HDMI 2.0, etc.). I think I'll sit back and let the dust settle for awhile before I invest any of my actual money in it. I'm sure I'll be doing reviews, but ownership will have to wait awhile. I'm just glad that the 4K push in Hollywood is resulting in Blu-ray discs being mastered from better and better masters and captures. The benefits are easy to see, even with our 1080p playback. Now if only I could convince mainstream Hollywood to shoot everything (well most big productions) in 70mm and do 8K scans for the master.

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post #59 of 139 Old 07-24-2013, 11:09 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

I think it's rather disingenuous to suggest DLP doesn't suffer from its own related set of issues. A few I saw looking over the last several DLPs I installed...
  • Chromatic aberration - at times worse than panel miss alignment.
  • Focus uniformity - outer edge pixels fuzzy.
  • Rainbows.
  • Image pulsing - center and right side of the image pulses (on multiple units).
  • Jet engine noise level.
  • Pixel structure more visible.

Personally, I have owned roughly 50/50 and any blanket statement is rather crazy in my eyes.. simply shows an agenda regardless of how ingenuous.

All with the exception the pixel structure being visible (which many find a plus) is absent with my NuVision ProVu P2. You simply haven't seen a good DLP projector. All of the problems you have are with a specific DLP unit and don't apply to the technology as a whole.
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post #60 of 139 Old 07-24-2013, 11:10 AM
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Ha ha - that's true Mike. I have one screen to replace still and I'm finished upgrading my theater - for now. Of course, who knows what new toys await us at CEDIA. smile.gif

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