Blu-ray 4K UHD - coming 2015? - Page 134 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3991 of 4969 Old 01-26-2016, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by JaguarCRO View Post
3) No competing Disc Format launching at or near the same time (HD-DVD launched and burned out rather quickly but it certainly slowed the launch of Blu-Ray)
I believe Blu-ray would be stronger today if format war had not happened (despite physical media market share shrinking with digital sources). But I think a lot of people sat out with both physical formats and by the time the war was over (early 2008) people didn't bother and then the economy soon took the severe downswing (by late 2008) and there was less disposable income available. Had the format launched by itself in 2006, there would have been a greater buyer confidence and people who only bought HD DVD would have only bought Blu-ray in their upgrading and fewer people on the fence.
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post #3992 of 4969 Old 01-26-2016, 08:57 PM
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Question Does Media Coverage Of 8K TV Demos Make Many Consumers Think UHD 4K Will Be Obsolete?

I wonder if UHD 4K's adoption rate is being hurt by news coverage like CNN mentioning that a couple TV manufacturers have been demonstrating 8K TVs at various trade shows. Personally, this would not deter me from going UHD, because I think 8K is insane on even the largest screen you're likely to be able to cram into a room that could be found in even a 6 thousand square foot house.

But I have seen guys saying on some websites that with them thinking that the introduction of 8K TVs is probably not far over the horizon, it's smart to skip UHD 4K TVs altogether, and wait for 8K.

Does anyone think this is a significant factor in preventing faster adoption of UHD 4K?
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post #3993 of 4969 Old 01-26-2016, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by sarahb75 View Post
Does anyone think this is a significant factor in preventing faster adoption of UHD 4K?

How much faster does the adoption of UHD 4K need to be to be considered "good?"
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post #3994 of 4969 Old 01-26-2016, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by drjay71 View Post
Also, since the UHD Blu-Ray players will have 4K streaming capabilities like Netflix 4K, I can have the best of both worlds.
I have a Roku 4 and I also have the Samsung UHD Blu-ray player on pre-order. My reasoning is that the Roku interface is *so good* I want both. Have you used a Roku before? Its cross-platform search is a dream - search for a movie title and it shows you instantly every service which has it. Blu-ray players I've used have painful interfaces which make browsing for a movie a real chore.
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"Don't forget that a significant contribution made by the use of high-end cabling is emotional. Knowing that you have the best available causes the listening and viewing to be that much more enjoyable. Observable improvements make it even better."

-From a post on the audio video improvements forum
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post #3995 of 4969 Old 01-26-2016, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by sarahb75 View Post
I wonder if UHD 4K's adoption rate is being hurt by news coverage like CNN mentioning that a couple TV manufacturers have been demonstrating 8K TVs at various trade shows. Personally, this would not deter me from going UHD, because I think 8K is insane on even the largest screen you're likely to be able to cram into a room that could be found in even a 6 thousand square foot house.

But I have seen guys saying on some websites that with them thinking that the introduction of 8K TVs is probably not far over the horizon, it's smart to skip UHD 4K TVs altogether, and wait for 8K.

Does anyone think this is a significant factor in preventing faster adoption of UHD 4K?
Short answer: No

Long Answer: Resolution is the least motivating of all the upgraded attributes. In order of my preference:
1) WCG
2) HDR
3) HFR
4) Size
5) Resolution

Personally I think the next successful platform (besides 4K) will actually be VR. But that is another topic for another thread.
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post #3996 of 4969 Old 01-26-2016, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by chrisreeves View Post
I have a Roku 4 and I also have the Samsung UHD Blu-ray player on pre-order. My reasoning is that the Roku interface is *so good* I want both. Have you used a Roku before? Its cross-platform search is a dream - search for a movie title and it shows you instantly every service which has it. Blu-ray players I've used have painful interfaces which make browsing for a movie a real chore.
Since I don't watch a lot of TV and I want the best picture I can get for movies, I mostly use Blu-Ray, so I'm somewhat behind the curve with streaming. When I stream I use my Apple TV, which is a nice experience.

By far the most painful, antiquated UI experience in our house at this point is our cable TV. Your standard Scientific Atlanta digital cable box supplied by our cable company, the technology unchanged for over a decade, if not two decades. Navigating and searching through the TV guide is sooooo cumbersome, slow and painful I sometimes literally just give up. The instant "type or say the name of what you want to see" search format everywhere else in digital equipment makes using a cable box feel like working with stone tools. That's got to be one huge benefit for people who cut the cable cord and go fully digital streaming.
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post #3997 of 4969 Old 01-26-2016, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by sarahb75 View Post
I wonder if UHD 4K's adoption rate is being hurt by news coverage like CNN mentioning that a couple TV manufacturers have been demonstrating 8K TVs at various trade shows. Personally, this would not deter me from going UHD, because I think 8K is insane on even the largest screen you're likely to be able to cram into a room that could be found in even a 6 thousand square foot house.

But I have seen guys saying on some websites that with them thinking that the introduction of 8K TVs is probably not far over the horizon, it's smart to skip UHD 4K TVs altogether, and wait for 8K.

Does anyone think this is a significant factor in preventing faster adoption of UHD 4K?
I'm pretty sure 8k is getting into diminishing returns for home use. Now for commercial cinema and truly huge screens it might be of benefit. I think the biggest benefit of UHD in general is that it assures whatever is released is given the finest treatment. I definitely have seen a lot of variation in quality in my own blu ray collection. Consistency would be nice.
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post #3998 of 4969 Old 01-26-2016, 10:08 PM
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1080P Tvs will eventually not be made anymore.



this article is less than a week old. got ALOT of good information in here as he was at CES this year.

summary:

-- "virtually every single display manufacturer at CES told me that they plan to eventually stop making regular 1080p-only displays."


--"The first thing I have to say is that I’m a lot more excited about Ultra HD Blu-ray than I expected to be, and certainly more than I was just a few weeks ago. I’ve now had the chance to see demonstrations of a number of films in 4K UHD BD with High Dynamic Range (HDR), including both new and catalog films (even a few personal favorite titles), and I will tell you that the experience of seeing a film you love in Ultra High Definition with HDR is both striking and thrilling."

--"-There’s one other thing I understand better about Ultra HD Blu-ray from firsthand experience at CES: You might not think you want it now… but the first time you see one of your favorite films on UHD Blu-ray in that level of quality, you may find yourself changing your tune. Remember, you don’t have to upgrade all your movies to UHD – all your existing BD and DVD discs will work fine on that new player. But trust me, the moment you get your first glance of Mad Max: Fury Road, The Godfather, or Lawrence of Arabia in 4K with HDR… your heart is going to skip a beat. And that’s no small thing."

82Q90R*75Q9FN(RIP)*55C8OLED*Galaxy Note10+*Ub820 fed into Oppo 203*XB1X*4k DenonX4200

MASTER LIST OF HDR CONTENT THREAD HERE, UPDATED OFTEN
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post #3999 of 4969 Old 01-27-2016, 01:28 AM
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Originally Posted by JeffR1 View Post
I would be curious to see what the Canadian market is, since we really don't have any options to stream new releases _ we don't have a choice but to buy or rent discs.
I don't claim to know much about Canada, except that it's roughly 10% the population of the U.S. in an even greater geographic area overall. It's a beautiful country, but a very unimportant market for Hollywood studios because it has fewer people than, well, California.

My *guess* is you will get better streaming options soon. My hope is that my guess is right. My suspicion is your few independent video stores left will carry UHD BluRay in tiny quantities.

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Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post
I'm actually pleasantly surprised that Blu-Ray became as successful as it did. There was lots of cynicism all the way through the launch, from the format wars and onward there was lots of "Blu-Ray will fizzle out, no one cares, it'll be like laser disc." And there was much hand-wringing that older back catalog movies would never really make it out beyond a handful. But it seemed to have nonetheless made a significant penetration, and movies never stopped coming out, and now I find myself with far more Blu-Ray movies than I'll probably ever be able to watch. Most of my DVD collection, including most of the classic movies I loved, niche and otherwise, came out on Blu-Ray. So...color me happy with the way that went.
I should be clear when I downplay the prospects of UHD BluRay that I was very bullish on BluRay. I predicted its victory over HD-DVD, was very critical/dismissive of Time Warner/Toshiba's patent money grab/scorched-earth play to try to push HD-DVD, and was excited to acquire one of the earliest BluRay players (a first-gen PS3).

That said, as successful as it has been, the fact it never came close to outselling DVD is a major disappointment given HDTV penetration in the U.S. is something like 90%. That BluRay finally took off when Blockbuster began to die and when Netflix started to emphasize streaming over disc rentals also limited its potential.

None of this takes away from the things you like, of course. And you are one of many enthusiasts who has enjoyed years of amazing content on the format.

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Originally Posted by JaguarCRO View Post
I think BluRay ended up in very good shape. Every major movie title comes out on the platform, prices are reasonable and there are lots of places to get them. It has taken a long time to get to this point though

UHD Blu-Ray has many advantages over Blu-Ray.
I don't think anyone is arguing that as a concept, I think your optimism is misplaced as to whether that matters.

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1) TVs that are needed to see the advantages of the superior video quality are considerably cheaper and already shipping at a much higher volume and yet at a much earlier point in time as compared to HD TVs (From the CTA Presentation during HTG Episode 288 at ~40:24) One can clearly see that the 2015 UHD TV number is 7.1 Million units sold vs <5.9 Million in 2006. 2006 was the year Blu-Ray Launched and yet that was almost 8 years after HD TVs launched in the US.
BluRay never became as popular as DVD even as HDTV penetration passed 90%. And that was when disc penetration was also 90% or so, everyone lived near a Blockbuster, everyone could subscribe to Netflix, which encouraged new disc subs, etc. Now, disc rental is borderline dead, save Redbox and dwindling Netflix. And no one will be renting these discs. No format in the U.S. has come remotely close to success without robust rental.
Quote:
2) Launch Players (and follow-on players will have to follow suit) are already significantly below their Blu-Ray counterparts. $399 vs $799 and up. Of course the bargain Blu-Ray player in late 2006 was the PS3 but that was $499 and $599 at launch and Sony lost a ton of money at those prices. UHD Blu-Ray players are already profitable at $399 in 2016.
Who cares that Sony lost money? Millions of us bought a PS3 because we wanted one and could also play BluRays. It was a win-win. No one will have any such synergy with UHD BluRay.
Quote:
3) No competing Disc Format launching at or near the same time (HD-DVD launched and burnt out rather quickly but it certainly slowed the launch of Blu-Ray)
Actually, there are many competing formats. Amazon, Vudu, Netflix and likely soon Apple. The idea these don't compete is really silly.
Quote:
5) It costs them virtually no more money to manufacture than traditional Blu-Rays today and yet they can sell them for more money. (or justify the higher price for a longer time when the majority of their sales come for a movie)
Oh, good, the studios can justify charging more money. That should be a boon for the format!
Quote:
6) Significantly superior quality video (Thank you 4K, HDR and WCG)
All available on streaming, all irrelevant to likely 90% of customers anyway.

DVD never lost to BluRay because most people don't care about picture quality. When PQ was freaking terrible (VHS), DVD was a godsend. When it was terrible (NTSC), HDTV was a godsend. UHD will be free on most sets and most people won't see any UHD for a long while, unless they get it from a streaming service.
Quote:
7) Significantly superior audio. (Thank you Atmos and DTS:X) Even if you can't afford the superior audio system to take advantage of the object based audio formats, the built-in audio in TVs is getting much much better than it was in 2006. Better sound makes a movie much more immersive. (Streaming audio is quite bad even on the best services)
Please don't argue that Atmos is going to be noticeably better than Dolby Digital on a built-in TV speaker. And please remember that, again, <10% of U.S. households have surround sound.
Quote:
8) It represents a True Halo Product for Hollywood. They all want to make the best product they can and they want the most people to see that. That Home product has been well below what the Cinema could deliver for a number of years. In March of this year, UHD 4K Blu-Ray will become the true Halo product that delivers the best in class Audio and Video experience for Movies and TV shows.
Yes, the 1% (of digerati, not wealth) will love it. Likely 50% of people won't have ever heard of it by 2018. I'm really not sure this format is meaningfully going to survive past 2020 and have some modicum of confidence it will be gone by 2025. But I'd love to be proved wrong.

Arguments about quality, halos, sound and wide color gamut -- a whole host of things that 90% of people will absolutely never care about -- are not persuasive. The world picked LCD over plasma. It picked VHS over Beta. It picked MP3 over CD. It picks "inferior", more convenient formats over and over and over and over and over. The quality hounds keep thinking "this time will be different."
Quote:
Now one thing I would like to know is how many Blu-Ray players, and Blu-Ray Movies were sold in 2006. (So we can do a fair comparison)
<1 million in 2006, 2/3 of which were PS3
10 million in 2008

I'm betting 2007 is "somewhere in between"

I found a stat that had BluRay movies at 694,000 through Feb. 25, 2007. So that's close.

If we'd like to take bets I am:

1) Confident that fewer than 1 million players will be sold this year in the U.S.
2) Reasonably confident that the average buyer of a player sold this year will acquire 5 or more movies given the incredible launch/near launch selection

There's a saying about "everything in moderation". If only it was applied to well, you know...
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post #4000 of 4969 Old 01-27-2016, 06:21 AM
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Yeah I agree with pretty much everything Rogo has said above. In the current market, with streaming alternatives that are good enough for joe schmoe, UHD Blurry really doesn't stand a chance in becoming a main stream format.

The 4K resolution, which is probably the most obvious selling point of the format is really also just a joke considering the limited number of movies being mastered or even shot in the format. After the initial wave of launch titles, pretty much everything released will be studio upscaled crap passed off as UHD. Most enthusiasts, of course, will be ignorant to this and buy the format none the less, making it likely to prevail as a niche format for some time.

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post #4001 of 4969 Old 01-27-2016, 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Ballis View Post
Yeah I agree with pretty much everything Rogo has said above. In the current market, with streaming alternatives that are good enough for joe schmoe, UHD Blurry really doesn't stand a chance in becoming a main stream format.

The 4K resolution, which is probably the most obvious selling point of the format is really also just a joke considering the limited number of movies being mastered or even shot in the format. After the initial wave of launch titles, pretty much everything released will be studio upscaled crap passed off as UHD. Most enthusiasts, of course, will be ignorant to this and buy the format none the less, making it likely to prevail as a niche format for some time.
I really hope it's not "UHD Blurry" because I'm really hoping for a sharp detailed picture.
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post #4002 of 4969 Old 01-27-2016, 06:50 AM
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haha, thats a funny typo. Ill leave it there
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post #4003 of 4969 Old 01-27-2016, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Rudy1 View Post
Rogo,

I've been reading your posts ever since I first signed up on the AVSF, and it's comforting to see that your attitude towards the industry's attempts at marketing and selling new technology has not changed: you're consistently the voice of doom.

Rudy
Online is taking over didn't you hear. Nothing else will succeed. Didn't you get the memo from 2013... #dealwithit
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post #4004 of 4969 Old 01-27-2016, 08:32 AM
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I Think He Has A Good Point

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Originally Posted by antennahead View Post
This is true. People with money who want the best end up with a UHD TV because that's where those sets lie....... at the top of the food chain. I also think in a few years that will be basically all you will see for sale, as it's not that much more expensive to manufacturer, and it could be argued that it's more convenient for the manufacturers to concentrate on just one resolution. I don't see UHD sets driving UHD disc sales any more than 1080p HD drove the masses to Blu ray .................. the masses stayed with the inferior and cheaper DVD. Sure us techno geeks who want the best will go there, but the masses? I say no......... they'll get their 4K content via streaming and UHD will be a niche product.
antennahead, we are definitely on the same page! All one has to do to prove your point that most people didn't go beyond DVD (But, I'm one of your "techno geeks" that did, now having 704 movies on Blu, plus 31 documentaries & concerts on Blu) is to take a look at the customers on Amazon who are reviewing movie releases, with these people reporting, for most movie releases, having watched the movie on DVD, about 4 times as often as other customers report having watched it on Blu-ray.

Plus, UHD Blu-ray, for most UHD TV owners, will reveal a much smaller improvement over regular Blu-ray, than Blu-ray offers over DVD. I said "for most UHD TV owners" because while HDR encoded UHD BD discs could reveal quite a large improvement over regular Blu-ray, most people who go out to buy an UHD TV aren't willing to spend the kind of money required to get one of the relatively high end TVs in a brand's UHD TV line that can actually do a decent job with HDR, and also be capable of providing a wider color gamut. The bottom 2 quality levels of Samsung's 65 inch UHD TVs, for example, only employ 8 bit panels, so with them you can just forget seeing any of the HDR and Wide Color Gamut advantages that 10 bit UHD Blu-ray discs will be able to offer.

Plus, as I'm sure my fellow AVS members have noticed, while TV ads like those from Best Buy and hhgregg often include a long list of features for various UHD TV models, rarely is even a minimum amount of space devoted to promoting HDR. Going by most ads, you would never know that HDR even exists.

And I think it's just ridiculous that a brand like Samsung offers no fewer than 6, or possibly 7 different levels of quality with its UHD TV line. Talk about trying to confuse the consumer.

In just one recent hhgregg Sunday newspaper ad alone, the Samsung 65 inch UHD TVs advertised were the 65JU6500 for $1797, the 65JU6700 for $1997, the 65JU7500 for $2197, the 65JS8500 for $2997, and the 65JS9000 for $3797.


If that hhgregg ad had even bothered to include the even more expensive 65JS9500, that would have made 6 different price levels for one size of UHD TV. And I think the ad neglected to mention a JU7000 or JU7100 model, so it's likely that Samsung is offering at least 7 price levels for the 65 inch size.


I know, from being in sales, that many consumers go by what I call "The rule of One." What that means is that you shouldn't buy the cheapest model in a manufacturers line, but if you just step up one level, you will do pretty well. But in the case of this Samsung line of UHD TVs, going up 1 price level higher still buys you crap, as far as HDR and WCG are concerned, but it does put you up at the $2,000 level for a 65 inch UHD TV, and 90% of consumers, from what I've seen, have no desire to spend more than that for any TV. But from what I've read, most performance enthusiasts maintain that you have to step up at least to the Samsung JS8500 series to get good HDR performance. And the hhgregg ad, of a couple weeks ago, had the 65 inch model of that series on sale for $2997. Most shoppers will immediately cross that model off of the list, as too expensive.

And that $3797 price for the 65JS9000 in that ad, would simply horrify most TV shoppers. That's probably why the ad didn't even bother mentioning the even more pricey JS9500.

And we should consider that for about 80 to 85% of the time since the first UHD TVs became available, HDR capability was not even included in the UHD TVs that consumers were buying.

So my point is, that when UHD Blu-ray is launched, for all but a very tiny % of UHD TV owners, HDR and WCG will not be factors that could help them to see a major improvement with UHD BDs. It could very well happen that most people who spring for an UHD Blu-ray player, after buying 1 or 2 of the new discs, may decide that upconverted 1080p Blu-ray discs appear to be so close in quality that paying a price premium is not worth it, in most cases. And many folks will probably decide that there are very few of the better looking 1080p Blu-ray movies in their collections, that they would feel real thrilled about spending money on again, just to have a small improvement with the new format.

Mike Boone

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post #4005 of 4969 Old 01-27-2016, 08:37 AM
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On a more serious note isn't it amazing how the disc based console (PS4) has set record after record despite so many of the media naysayers saying the only possible future is Online. (and that consoles are dead)

I mean it would be trivial for both PS4 and Xbox One to release a revision this summer that supports the Blu-Ray 4K UHD format. It would not materially increase the cost of goods for the system and with the small investment needed in software support for the format, you would then instantly have another 10+ million Blu-Ray 4K UHD players sold on the market in 2016 alone.

Come to think of it maybe one of the big reasons Sony didn't launch a player at CES is that Sony Electronics doesn't think a stand-alone player would be successful, but one that is bundled with the record setting & profitable home console, PS4, would instantly make them the leader in the field. They can even push their new "Ultra" service on the device and connect it to any compatible 4K TV (HDMI 2.0a and HDCP 2.2 supported) and then essentially back both the digital and the disk world.

E3 is on June 14-16 and would make a perfect time for a redesigned PS4 that incorporated these features. I already own a PS4 and I would buy a new one with these capabilities.

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post #4006 of 4969 Old 01-27-2016, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by gpmbc View Post
I'm pretty sure 8k is getting into diminishing returns for home use. Now for commercial cinema and truly huge screens it might be of benefit. I think the biggest benefit of UHD in general is that it assures whatever is released is given the finest treatment. I definitely have seen a lot of variation in quality in my own blu ray collection. Consistency would be nice.
I have no doubt that 8k makes no sense at home because, not long ago, in his regular column on Home Theater Forum, world renowned film restoration expert Robert A Harris (he restored Lawrence of Arabia, among others.) stated that the 4k format employed in commercial theaters is so good that carefully prepared 4k files resulting from a scan of an excellent condition original camera negative of a 70 millimeter film, when shown on a top quality 4k projector, will yield a final result that looks as good as a quality presentation of an actual 70 millimeter film print of that movie, even on very large theater screens. In a nutshell, what Mr Harris was saying is that 8k is not even needed to have very high quality digital movie presentations on the large screens found in movie theaters, so it's absurd to think that it would offer a useful improvement in the home environment. And since Mr Harris is a man who truly loves film, I take him very seriously when he says that the 4k commercial format can actually replicate the look of 70mm film.

But one thing to keep in mind is that the digital files are scanned directly off of the original camera negative, if it's in good shape or has been restored, whereas, film prints are a couple generations away from the original camera negative. A 70mm camera negative has considerably more resolution than the commercial 4k digital system is capable of, but the problem is that by the time that you get to the actual film prints that are seen by audiences, that resolution advantage is gone.

Mike Boone
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post #4007 of 4969 Old 01-27-2016, 10:01 AM
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I don't claim to know much about Canada, except that it's roughly 10% the population of the U.S. in an even greater geographic area overall. It's a beautiful country, but a very unimportant market for Hollywood studios because it has fewer people than, well, California.

My *guess* is you will get better streaming options soon. My hope is that my guess is right. My suspicion is your few independent video stores left will carry UHD BluRay in tiny quantities
Wow, I didn't think that Canada was that sparsely populated ! I should of checked first, but you have to remember that, that 10% of the population is still buying actual media because of our consumer laws force us to do so.
The stuff that is available for streaming is poor quality, IMO and out of date.
Maybe in 10, 15 or 20 years out, things will change, but physical media has been around since Thomas Edison and his wax cylinders, there are allot of people out there that are clinging onto their DVD's. (not so much Blu-rays I guess)
People are slow to change and I think it will take a long time.

Our population is spread so thin, I don't think it will be cost effective for; lets say Shaw Cable, to have servers big enough, or enough band width for people to stream huge file content of UHD Blu-ray.
I'll be long dead to see the population density build here in Canada to what it is in the US, so in the end, if there is no more physical media, maybe Canada will get screwed, and by then we'll be part of the US...


I have no doubt that streaming will eventually replace actual media, but there is a fair ways to go technology wise, factor in the cost of streaming and getting people to move away from something that's been around for more then 100 years...
I think we're years off, or even decades, to where I walk into Wal-Mart one day and find no more discs.

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post #4008 of 4969 Old 01-27-2016, 10:21 AM
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First of all I've said for a year that there is no way I'm going to be an early adapter of uhd blu ray. Then the pre order came out. I pre ordered I've got a jvc 4910 (and a way to get a 4k signal to it)
and a dolby atmos receiver.

I think the launch is going to be a disaster. Us avsers are having trouble getting the roku 4 to work. And we suppose to know what is going on. You get just the average consumer buying a new samsung uhd player and him(or her) hooking it up to their 5 year old receiver or what they think is their 4k ready flat screen and you have a recipe for disaster. They will try and try again. Then they will return it. Then tell their friends and neighbors about it.

I want uhd to succeed. I just think there are too many variables for it not to.
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post #4009 of 4969 Old 01-27-2016, 10:22 AM
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So how does everyone feel about online authentication now being confirmed as a mandatory licensing requirement for all UHDBD players? (see attachment, row6,column2 "AACS Online" on list) Still optional for movie discs, will be title-by-title basis like Cinavia and BD+.
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post #4010 of 4969 Old 01-27-2016, 10:29 AM
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So how does everyone feel about online authentication now being confirmed as a mandatory licensing requirement for all UHDBD players? (see attachment, row6,column2 "AACS Online" on list) Still optional for movie discs, will be title-by-title basis like Cinavia and BD+.
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post #4011 of 4969 Old 01-27-2016, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post
So how does everyone feel about online authentication now being confirmed as a mandatory licensing requirement for all UHDBD players? (see attachment, row6,column2 "AACS Online" on list) Still optional for movie discs, will be title-by-title basis like Cinavia and BD+.
I don't know. What does it mean in practice?

I've ordered the Samsung UHD Blu-Ray player. I plan to buy UHD Blu-Rays like The Martian. What would I have to do?
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post #4012 of 4969 Old 01-27-2016, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Jerry Durham View Post
First of all I've said for a year that there is no way I'm going to be an early adapter of uhd blu ray. Then the pre order came out. I pre ordered I've got a jvc 4910 (and a way to get a 4k signal to it)
and a dolby atmos receiver.

I think the launch is going to be a disaster. Us avsers are having trouble getting the roku 4 to work. And we suppose to know what is going on. You get just the average consumer buying a new samsung uhd player and him(or her) hooking it up to their 5 year old receiver or what they think is their 4k ready flat screen and you have a recipe for disaster. They will try and try again. Then they will return it. Then tell their friends and neighbors about it.

I want uhd to succeed. I just think there are too many variables for it not to.
Most of the issues people have been having with 1st gen 4K source devices involve getting proper surround sound audio, proper 24 fps playback, issues with 10-bit output, slight issues with color space conversion, lack of native resolution/frame rate output, and erroneous HDCP-related messages. Aside from the HDCP-related messages (which appear to be restricted to a specific streaming app), 99% of the population doesn't/wouldn't even notice these issues.

As long as a consumer can hook up a UHD Blu-Ray player to their current TV and have it output something, they will assume that it works. All it needs to be able to do is function as well as their old player for DVD and Blu-Ray playback (which it should) and output audio and video from a UHD Blu-Ray disc that is at least as good as what they are used to getting from a Blu-Ray disc and the majority will be happy. Since most people sit 10' (or more) from their 65" (or smaller) TV and listen to audio played thru the TV's speakers, it won't take much to impress them. The placebo effect or expectation bias will cause many to believe that what they are seeing and hearing is better, even if the player is downscaling the content to 1080p (due to lack of HDCP 2.2 support) or using a lossy Dolby Digital or even a stereo soundtrack. We are the only people that complain about the types of issues that the FireTV2 and Roku4 have been having. If I was a gambling man, I would bet that the most common complaint from people who purchase an Ultra HD Blu-Ray player will be "where do I plug the yellow cable?" (as in, the composite video cable currently plugged into their TV).
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post #4013 of 4969 Old 01-27-2016, 11:51 AM
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Even if the discs don't require it, I'd be leery of hooking up the player to my network.

Smart TVs spy and collect data on you so why wouldn't players from the same manufacturers?

I have to opt out to not be spied on?

What a crock.
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post #4014 of 4969 Old 01-27-2016, 11:59 AM
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Rogo,

I've been reading your posts ever since I first signed up on the AVSF, and it's comforting to see that your attitude towards the industry's attempts at marketing and selling new technology has not changed: you're consistently the voice of doom.
I think you mis-read my realistic view of the situation because it doesn't fit your optimistic view.

I'm very excited about new technology like VR, AR, and even to a lesser extent UHD. I'm very unexcited about discs. I've been very skeptical about the trajectory of OLED (and essentially right 100% of the time, except when I was misled by LG/Samsung into being slightly more optimistic).

Quote:
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Wow, I didn't think that Canada was that sparsely populated ! I should of checked first, but you have to remember that, that 10% of the population is still buying actual media because of our consumer laws force us to do so.
Sure, sure. Listen, I like Canada. I like Canadians. I hope you have great access to great content as soon as possible. You're just a small market.
Quote:
Maybe in 10, 15 or 20 years out, things will change, but physical media has been around since Thomas Edison and his wax cylinders, there are allot of people out there that are clinging onto their DVD's. (not so much Blu-rays I guess)
Well, DVD sales in the U.S. fell by double digits each year for the past several. The fingers are clinging less tightly.
Quote:
People are slow to change and I think it will take a long time.
Very true, they still buy CDs.

CDs did $1.85 billion in the U.S. in 2014, for example. Sounds like a lot right? Well consider this, 712 million discs were sold in 2000. As recent as 2005, it was nearly 600 million. In 2014? 141 million. In 2015? 126 million (thanks Adele, it would've been a lot worse without ya). So that's an 82% smaller market over 15 years. (Oh, yeah, and that "vinyl resurgence"? 12 million last year... ah nostalgia, you are small).

At current rates, CD sales will fall below 100 million in 1-2 years. When the market is below 50 million is tougher to say, but perhaps by 2020.. or 2022 the latest? I mean, nothing is likely to catalyze CD sales to grow, right? Do CDs still get made 7 years from now when many players age out of use? When cars stop having them built in (soon, I'd bet, because why?) Perhaps they do. I mean money is money. Do CDs get made in 2030? That just feels less likely, although you can argue "but buy vinyl". So we'll see whether nostalgia/desire for physical media is still potent as the declines continue.
Quote:
Our population is spread so thin, I don't think it will be cost effective for; lets say Shaw Cable, to have servers big enough, or enough band width for people to stream huge file content of UHD Blu-ray.
I don't think that recognizes how servers work. If you have broadband, you can serve a small number of customers. The gating factor is Canadian high speed internet not content distribution.
Quote:
I'll be long dead to see the population density build here in Canada to what it is in the US, so in the end, if there is no more physical media, maybe Canada will get screwed, and by then we'll be part of the US...
I wouldn't wish that fate on you right now, given our politics.
Quote:
I have no doubt that streaming will eventually replace actual media, but there is a fair ways to go technology wise, factor in the cost of streaming and getting people to move away from something that's been around for more then 100 years...
I think we're years off, or even decades, to where I walk into Wal-Mart one day and find no more discs.
And that's a good takeaway. I doubt Walmart and Target sell physical media in 10 years. I wouldn't be shocked to see them stop selling it in 5. For retail stores, floor/shelf space is about 2 things: bringing people into the store to buy other stuff, generating strong sales per square foot. I don't see physical media having much pull for either any longer, save kids movies and Adele albums. In 5 years, I'd bet the gravity around both of those has lost some pull. Maybe some of your Walmarts still stock that kind of stuff based on demographics, but fewer and fewer.

There's a saying about "everything in moderation". If only it was applied to well, you know...
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post #4015 of 4969 Old 01-27-2016, 12:03 PM
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I don't know. What does it mean in practice?

I've ordered the Samsung UHD Blu-Ray player. I plan to buy UHD Blu-Rays like The Martian. What would I have to do?
According to BDA officials, it is unlikely that you will have to do anything, as it would only be required for certain pre-release discs. I guess we'll have to wait and see if any discs sold in stores or via. Online retailers actually use it. And, if so, how it is implemented.
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post #4016 of 4969 Old 01-27-2016, 12:20 PM
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Even if the discs don't require it, I'd be leery of hooking up the player to my network.

Smart TVs spy and collect data on you so why wouldn't players from the same manufacturers?

I have to opt out to not be spied on?

What a crock.
So you don't have your current Blu-Ray player, game console, or TV connected to the Internet? How did you post just now? Aren't you worried that they are spying on you through your computer, smart phone, or tablet too?

The only real concern I have, if online authentication is required for the average disc, is what happens if/when the authentification server is taken offline and my current player dies...
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post #4017 of 4969 Old 01-27-2016, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by HockeyoAJB View Post
According to BDA officials, it is unlikely that you will have to do anything, as it would only be required for certain pre-release discs. I guess we'll have to wait and see if any discs sold in stores or via. Online retailers actually use it. And, if so, how it is implemented.
Thanks for the info.
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post #4018 of 4969 Old 01-27-2016, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by HockeyoAJB View Post
So you don't have your current Blu-Ray player, game console, or TV connected to the Internet? How did you post just now? Aren't you worried that they are spying on you through your computer, smart phone, or tablet too?

The only real concern I have, if online authentication is required for the average disc, is what happens if/when the authentification server is taken offline and my current player dies...
Well smart TVs have been found to be actively listening to the microphone. Or view you if it has a camera, like Kinect 2 for the Xbox One tried to do.

Now it's possible you can get malware on your computer to spy and to steal from you. But there are a lot of benefits you get for using computers and mobile devices connected online.

What is the benefit of connecting your TV or Blu Ray player online again?

If you want Netflix and other streaming services, I'll take my chances with the consoles and something like Apple TV way before I'd trust anything from Google or from Samsung, Vizio, etc.
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post #4019 of 4969 Old 01-27-2016, 02:16 PM
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Amazon just sent an update saying that "Life of Pi" UHD BD will be available February 9th. (Sorry, January was a typo)

I wonder if this actually moved up or if their system is just wonky?

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post #4020 of 4969 Old 01-27-2016, 02:19 PM
 
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..
that sums up my feeling as well..
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