Blu-ray 4K UHD - coming 2015? - Page 162 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4831 of 4969 Old 08-18-2016, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by sarahb75 View Post
With UHD Blu-ray having all that potential for displaying extremely high quality video images that it does, out of all of the first rate examples of movie photography that should have been among early UHD BD releases, could Sony executives have really believed that a release of 1984's "Ghostbusters" on UHD BD was something that was likely to have been on the wish lists of home theater enthusiasts?

I can't possibly be the only one here to believe that was a bizarre choice, I hope.

The only explanation I've been able to come up with for why "Ghostbusters" might have been chosen is maybe the suits at Sony thought that the new 2016 version of the movie with women replacing the original male ghostbusters, would be such a hit that it would help UHD BD sales of the original by raising awareness of the 1984 film among younger people who never saw it.

But seriously guys, Sony also owns "Lawrence of Arabia", and the extensive restoration and 8k scanning that was done a few years ago for that 70mm film made it ready to be transferred to a stunning UHD BD as soon as consumers could get their hands on the Samsung player.

Sure, "Ghostbusters" is a film that is 22 years newer than "Lawrence", but even so, if a poll was taken here I'd bet that a large majority of AVS members would vote that they would much rather have "Lawrence" on UHD BD, than have "Ghostbusters".

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Lawrence of Arabia and epics like that need a BD-100, at least, and 12 bit Dolby Vision. The former just became available for mass use and the latter is getting its specifications firmed up.

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post #4832 of 4969 Old 08-18-2016, 05:26 PM
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Maybe certain films have lower rights fees or something like that.

Or studios release films strategically, like Disney does with some of its classics.
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post #4833 of 4969 Old 08-19-2016, 03:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
Lawrence of Arabia and epics like that need a BD-100, at least, and 12 bit Dolby Vision. The former just became available for mass use and the latter is getting its specifications firmed up.
Fair enough, Dan. But let's just take Lawrence of Arabia out of the equation. Would you not agree that Sony's movie library (which includes films made or released by Columbia) must contain scores of movies that could provide video images that are superior to that seen with "Ghostbusters"?

I don't even think that big fans of "Ghostbusters" when thinking about when they saw it on the big screen of a movie theater, remember it as being a particularly impressive looking, or beautiful film. To give just one example of a film Sony owns, 1957's "The Bridge On The River Kwai" has cinematography that is far, far better, and much more beautiful than that of "Ghostbusters'. And, like "Ghostbusters", "Bridge" was also shot on 35mm film, as Cinemascope was a 35mm process.

And considering the many video releases that "Bridge" has had in various formats, any incidental costs of rights or royalty costs, connected with the film, possibly being a factor in preventing an UHD BD transfer of it from being done, seems very unlikely.

Last edited by sarahb75; 08-19-2016 at 03:47 AM. Reason: wrong word, and it's pretty early in the morn
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post #4834 of 4969 Old 08-19-2016, 04:08 AM
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Originally Posted by sarahb75 View Post
Fair enough, Dan. But let's just take Lawrence of Arabia out of the equation. Would you not agree that Sony's movie library (which includes films made or released by Columbia) must contain scores of movies that could provide video images that are superior to that seen with "Ghostbusters"?

I don't even think that big fans of "Ghostbusters" when thinking about when they saw it on the big screen of a movie theater, remember it as being a particularly impressive looking, or beautiful film. To give just one example of a film Sony owns, 1957's "The Bridge On The River Kwai" has cinematography that is far, far better, and much more beautiful than that of "Ghostbusters'. And, like "Ghostbusters", "Bridge" was also shot on 35mm film, as Cinemascope was a 35mm process.

And considering the many video releases that "Bridge" has had in various formats, any incidental costs of rights or royalty costs, connected with the film, possibly being a factor in preventing an UHD BD transfer of it from being done, seems very unlikely.
I think we can all agree that the main reason Ghostbusters I&II were released on 4k is simply a marketing ploy to prop up the "new" Ghostbuster's bomb,,,err,,release.
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post #4835 of 4969 Old 08-19-2016, 04:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarahb75 View Post
Fair enough, Dan. But let's just take Lawrence of Arabia out of the equation. Would you not agree that Sony's movie library (which includes films made or released by Columbia) must contain scores of movies that could provide video images that are superior to that seen with "Ghostbusters"?

I don't even think that big fans of "Ghostbusters" when thinking about when they saw it on the big screen of a movie theater, remember it as being a particularly impressive looking, or beautiful film. To give just one example of a film Sony owns, 1957's "The Bridge On The River Kwai" has cinematography that is far, far better, and much more beautiful than that of "Ghostbusters'. And, like "Ghostbusters", "Bridge" was also shot on 35mm film, as Cinemascope was a 35mm process.

And considering the many video releases that "Bridge" has had in various formats, any incidental costs of rights or royalty costs, connected with the film, possibly being a factor in preventing an UHD BD transfer of it from being done, seems very unlikely.
If you try and figure out the logic of when companies release what movies, you'll just drive yourself insane.
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post #4836 of 4969 Old 08-19-2016, 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by sarahb75 View Post
Fair enough, Dan. But let's just take Lawrence of Arabia out of the equation. Would you not agree that Sony's movie library (which includes films made or released by Columbia) must contain scores of movies that could provide video images that are superior to that seen with "Ghostbusters"?

I don't even think that big fans of "Ghostbusters" when thinking about when they saw it on the big screen of a movie theater, remember it as being a particularly impressive looking, or beautiful film. To give just one example of a film Sony owns, 1957's "The Bridge On The River Kwai" has cinematography that is far, far better, and much more beautiful than that of "Ghostbusters'. And, like "Ghostbusters", "Bridge" was also shot on 35mm film, as Cinemascope was a 35mm process.

And considering the many video releases that "Bridge" has had in various formats, any incidental costs of rights or royalty costs, connected with the film, possibly being a factor in preventing an UHD BD transfer of it from being done, seems very unlikely.
Hidden Dragon, Kwai, and Navarone are supposed to be on the docket of upcoming UHD Blu-rays and, as mentioned twice above, the two GB movies were released to coincide with the reboot flop. WB is releasing Goodfellas soon.

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post #4837 of 4969 Old 08-19-2016, 06:48 AM
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BD sales were taking off before the victory over HD DVD...that's why it won the format war.
Especially once the PS3 was released.
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post #4838 of 4969 Old 08-29-2016, 11:22 AM
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Sept 7, Sony has their Playstation event in NY, expected to announce the PS4 NEO, their first UHD Blu Ray player?

Apple also having an event on the same date for their products. Nothing 4K related, unless they introduce new Macs and maybe update AppleTV.

Lot of toys for the Holidays.
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post #4839 of 4969 Old 09-03-2016, 06:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Sony has shown a standalone prototype Ultra HD Blu-ray player at this week's IFA shown in Berlin, Germany - see link below. Thus it appears that Sony has two options for playing Ultra HD discs in the works, the standalone player and the upcoming PS4 Neo.


http://www.whathifi.com/news/sony-te...blu-ray-player
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post #4840 of 4969 Old 09-07-2016, 12:54 PM
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Well the PS4 Pro is announced with 4K and HDR gaming for $399 on November 10.

But no mention whatsoever of UHD Blu-Ray support.

Not even sure if they touted 4K streaming clients.
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post #4841 of 4969 Old 09-07-2016, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by wco81 View Post
Well the PS4 Pro is announced with 4K and HDR gaming for $399 on November 10.

But no mention whatsoever of UHD Blu-Ray support.

Not even sure if they touted 4K streaming clients.
Not, confirmed not support UHD Blu-ray, only streaming services.
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post #4842 of 4969 Old 09-07-2016, 06:52 PM
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Bizarre. Sony is a major push being 4k and UHD blu ray... yet they seem to be letting Microsoft take the lead with their console being UHD blu-ray capable.

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post #4843 of 4969 Old 09-07-2016, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet View Post
Bizarre. Sony is a major push being 4k and UHD blu ray... yet they seem to be letting Microsoft take the lead with their console being UHD blu-ray capable.

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Sony is being totally Sony. They always discard their own babies. Always.

They're a completely dysfunctional company. They should probably shed their interest in Hollywood too. It isn't working out for them there either... much like Warner Brothers, which is steadily getting run right into the ground.

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post #4844 of 4969 Old 09-07-2016, 08:21 PM
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Maybe the other companies complained about the PS3 undercutting them with Blu Ray?

Or maybe they didn't want to pay the royalties for H.265 and other UHD BR IP?

One reason for the existence of the PS4 Pro is VR but as niche as UHD BR may be, why bet it all on some unproven thing that requires a pretty hefty investment in peripherals?
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post #4845 of 4969 Old 09-08-2016, 06:42 AM
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Originally Posted by wco81 View Post
Maybe the other companies complained about the PS3 undercutting them with Blu Ray?
That and the fact their own UHD BD player will be priced equal to or well above the PS4 Pro.

In a way Panasonic is doing the same thing in the US, a $700 DMP-UB900 but no less expensive DMP-UB700.
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post #4846 of 4969 Old 09-08-2016, 09:27 AM
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That and the fact their own UHD BD player will be priced equal to or well above the PS4 Pro.
Perhaps Sony is insuring they make a profit on PS4 hardware while trying to extend their lead over the competition. I imagine that adding US$100 to the PS4 Pro to add a UHD blu-ray player and playback software to the PS4 Pro price might alienate more of the general market who doesn't even know the difference between DVDs and HD Blu-ray. I've asked people how much they are willing to pay for UHD blu-ray to be added to the PS4 Pro, but I suspect everyone just wants a race to the bottom for a lower, not a higher, price. I paid $599 for a launch fat PS3 and it was worth it to start gaming and see movies in HD back then!

Is Microsoft losing money on the $300 base mode XBox One S with a UHD blu-ray player? Likely. Does anyone know?
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post #4847 of 4969 Old 09-08-2016, 09:45 AM
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Would it have cost that much more? Is the price difference between the BR drive they're going to use and a BR drive capable of supporting UHD media that much more?

You would think the CPU and GPU could run UHD BR discs in software, though maybe the royalties would have added to the cost.


Andrew House from Sony was on CNBC this morning saying the number one use of the console was games followed by streaming video. Use of packaged media on their consoles was way down in comparison.
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post #4848 of 4969 Old 09-08-2016, 10:08 AM
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Is Microsoft losing money on the $300 base mode XBox One S with a UHD blu-ray player? Likely. Does anyone know?
I don't see how they could afford to given the changes to Microsoft's revenue structure. They have been giving away free upgrades to their latest operating system to keep people using and developing for Windows. They don't make many games themselves and I think it's still too early to tell how much additional revenue the subscription-based model for productivity software is going to produce. Their mobile products have been a flop. If they are taking losses on gaming hardware as well then I don't see why they would even stay in the gaming sector.

Bear in mind that the PS4 Pro is a more powerful gaming console than the Xbox One S. In fact, the gap has only grown since the release of the PS4 and Xbox One. Excluding the UHD Blu-Ray drive, the Xbox One S' hardware cost is likely significantly less than the PS4 Pro's.
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post #4849 of 4969 Old 09-08-2016, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by wco81 View Post
Or maybe they didn't want to pay the royalties for H.265 and other UHD BR IP?

If it streams 4K (Netflix) then H265 decoding is already in there.

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post #4850 of 4969 Old 09-08-2016, 12:32 PM
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True but maybe Netflix pays the royalty in that case rather than Sony?
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post #4851 of 4969 Old 09-08-2016, 11:21 PM
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True but maybe Netflix pays the royalty in that case rather than Sony?
No because the royalty is in the decoder. As for the encoder they can encode whatever they want in H265, there's no charge other than the initial encoding software and whatever hardware they use down the chain.

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post #4852 of 4969 Old 09-09-2016, 08:24 AM
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Just talked to a friend who is a home theater dealer, uses the 1000 Sony and just told me that he finally watched the ultimate UHD BD reference disc: Lucy

Here is a review that apparently agrees: http://ultrahd.highdefdigest.com/32906/lucy4k.html


"The image is outstanding in 2160p with every nuance of detail popping right off screen. You'll be able to notice every facial mark and makeup effect easily here, and how it changes in the different light and shadows."

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post #4853 of 4969 Old 09-09-2016, 07:51 PM
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No because the royalty is in the decoder.
Agreed, but where is the decoder? I don't mean to be a contrarian, just adding some analysis. The decoder could be a few places:
  1. It is in XBox One hardware, on a SoC or part of the GPU?
    Then yes, MSFT paid for it and the Netflix App could use hardware decoding of the system.
  2. Is it in a XBox OS system library?
    Then yes, MSFT paid for it and the Netflix App could use software decoding of the system.
  3. Is it in the Netflix app? Then Netflix pays the decoder royalty.
Netflix would not need to use the Microsoft decoder provided, they could still implement their own. Of course, that would not make financial sense and it may not perform well. The most likely answer Netflix uses a Microsoft provided decoder for all system software.

Of course, Microsoft would never make a secret API for their apps to access special features and performance of the decoder. ;~) Anyhow, there could be times when Netflix may need to use their own decoder for a platform for the lack of one provided by the OS or for performance reasons. I'm sure our monthly subscription could have paid for them many times over!
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post #4854 of 4969 Old 09-09-2016, 08:10 PM
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If they are taking losses on gaming hardware as well then I don't see why they would even stay in the gaming sector.
However Microsoft has been known to tie together markets illegally, they are financially creative (as all large corporations are today), and they have a combined Windows and XBox gaming platform initiative.

If you funnel Windows or advertising revenue into anything (from 350 million Windows 10 devices which default to Bing) or if you count on an XBox customer owning Xbox live subscriptions for years, I think they could be selling hardware at a loss.

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Excluding the UHD Blu-Ray drive, the Xbox One S' hardware cost is likely significantly less than the PS4 Pro's.
Of course, but I was thinking a better comparison is the PS4 slim, which will retail for $299 just as the XBox One S 500GB unit does today. So how much does the UHD blu-ray drive and software cost Microsoft?
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post #4855 of 4969 Old 09-10-2016, 12:25 AM
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It is in XBox One hardware, on a SoC or part of the GPU?
HEVC (H265) is extremely hardware intensive so decoding is built into the APU.

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So how much does the UHD blu-ray drive and software cost Microsoft?
$15 for the drive over a normal BD-ROM.
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post #4856 of 4969 Old 09-10-2016, 09:41 AM
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2nd Quarter results from DEG:

"Ultra HD Blu-ray Disc ... got off to a successful start in the first quarter of this year, with the first volley of Ultra HD Blu-ray discs hitting stores in March and selling far better than expected, according to studio executives.

The format’s launch was even more successful than regular Blu-ray Disc back in 2006.

More than 45 Ultra HD Blu-ray title releases were available in the first half of the year, with impressive sales of about 288,000 units."
Right, so this thing that videophiles like -- which has no competing format -- is doing better than the second-to-market 1080 disc format did. And by "doing better", we mean that it sold 288 thousand whopping units. That's on the order of $5-6 million to the studios.... Or, put differently, the Week 5 gross of Sausage Party. Cut those bonus checks now, Hollywood!

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BD sales were taking off before the victory over HD DVD...that's why it won the format war.
Once it became apparent that it was going to win, it won. That wasn't true in the opening months as those of us here who were sure BluRay would win got shouted down by the HD-DVD crew. Repeatedly.

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Bizarre. Sony is a major push being 4k and UHD blu ray... yet they seem to be letting Microsoft take the lead with their console being UHD blu-ray capable.
Right, Sony is "letting Microsoft take the lead" in a market that doesn't really exist: Gamer/videophiles who very likely don't yet have an PS 4 or Xbox One.

That's literally the market Sony is ceding.

The new consoles are "popular" to a point, with 65 million combined units sold. That's 2 weeks worth of smartphone sales, give or take.

While it's an achievement, it's also 1/3 of the all-time combined sales of PS3/Xbox 360. In other words, the majority of gamers who take this stuff seriously have a current-generation console (no, not the majority of all console games, but let's call the "serious group" half the previous generation... 2/3 of those have a current console). There is little chance many will upgrade/sidegrade. The PS 4 Pro is a mild upgrade at best. The Xbox is, of course, not an upgrade -- just smaller and cheaper.

So these consoles are selling to gamers who aren't particularly hardcore. Among those, Sony has chosen not to support the small fraction who want a physical-media movie format because they believe (1) it's the best -- which is objectively fair in terms of audio/video quality, albeit not other characteristics (2) who want to collect movie discs/have their DRM limited to all sorts of stuff, just not whatever they believe is wrong with streaming (3) whatever else I missed.

The UHD BluRay market is generously on the order of 10% of folks. Again, it will never be mass-market rentable which is table stakes for mass success. In the U.S. you have a potential market of about 13 million homes, feel free to round it off to 20 million for UHD BluRay. You have a console market of about 50 million homes or so -- roughly 40% of the US. Many already have consoles and have no plans to buy soon -- unless they want UHD BluRay and are already Xbox aficionados.

The reality is that Microsoft might forward shift demand by ~1 million units with this. Sony, however, will lose far less than 1 million sales (I'm talking US only, add in Japan and Europe and you might end up with 2-3x those numbers).

Should Sony have added UHD BluRay compatibility anyway? Perhaps. I'm far more likely -- as a non-serious gamer -- to buy a PS4 than Xbox. I'm intrigued by VR, will never own a gaming PC, and had both consoles last generation eventually. I thought hard about missing out on UHD BluRay with the PS 4 Pro and how much it matters to me. I'm honestly struggling to care. After moving past my initial disappointment, I asked myself when I'd have UHD BluRay. I realized that 95% of my exposure to discs in the past 5 years has been Redbox. Redbox will not be carrying UHD BluRay likely ever, and certainly never in a meaningful way (Redboxes typically have far, far more DVDs than BluRays even today). Netflix won't be an option either.

I realized that as good as UHD BluRay is -- and let's just agree, again, that video/audio quality is the best -- I'm never going to own it. I'm not an AVS discaholic like many of you, which is a perfectly fine hobby IMO, but also a niche within a niche within a niche. Sony doesn't believe many of you (a) don't already have a UHD BluRay player (b) also don't have a PS4 (c) really want both.

Are they actually wrong? I doubt it.

And still I wish they had chosen differently.
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post #4857 of 4969 Old 09-10-2016, 01:40 PM
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One other thing with 4K streaming.

Do Netflix and Amazon get the same movies in the all you can eat plans as those released on disc, even UHD BR discs?

In the same window?

It sounds like the streaming services are emphasizing original series more, not movies.
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post #4858 of 4969 Old 09-10-2016, 11:14 PM
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UHD Blu-ray Actually Hasn't Had A Very Big Launch

Rogo was just saying this about UHD Blu-ray's launch "doing better", we mean that it sold 288 thousand whopping units. That's on the order of $5-6 million to the studios.... Or, put differently, the Week 5 gross of Sausage Party." (In saying "288 thousand whopping units", while noting that UHD BD sales revenue was about equal to just the 5th week gross of Sausage Party, guess that Rogo was being just a trifle sarcastic.)

Yeah, UHD BD disc sales being equal to the week 5 box office gross of Sausage Party, but the money made by Sausage Party all goes to a single studio, while that $5 to 6 million from UHD Blu-ray disc sales is divided between a number of studios, so that's pretty close to such a total resembling the proverbial drop in the bucket, when it is compared to the many revenue streams that each studio has.

And comparing the launch of UHD Blu-ray to that of 1080p Blu-ray's launch, back in 2006, really isn't a valid comparison, because 1080p Blu-ray was competing with the rival HD-DVD format, until Toshiba finally threw in the towel, in February of 2008.

So, for more than a year after 1080p Blu-ray was introduced, an awful lot of Americans who were interested in eventually getting a Blu-ray player, were holding off on getting one, for fear that they might invest good money in a format that could ultimately be pushed off of the market by its rival.

Many of us will recall, that strangely, only a few months before Toshiba gave up on its HD-DVD format, Paramount, and I think, also Universal, made an announcement, that going forward, they both planned to only support HD-DVD, and would be dropping their support for Blu-ray. Of course, history certainly ended up proving how that announcement, itself, was to soon become obsolete.


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Last edited by sarahb75; 09-10-2016 at 11:20 PM. Reason: It's the wee hours, tired, missed a word.
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post #4859 of 4969 Old 09-10-2016, 11:39 PM
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Yeah if you want apple to apple comparisons, which times of the year did the launch windows include? There's a difference between sales in March and sales in November -- I don't recall when Blu Ray launched.

Then the availability of the software. How long before Blu Ray got Star Wars and other big titles?

Then there was the PS3 boosting sales of players vs. what now, $500 and up players?

UHD BR may not even be as successful as BR.

But what are the download/streaming options with the highest fidelity? Niche things like Kaleidoscape?
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post #4860 of 4969 Old 09-10-2016, 11:52 PM
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Putting Things Into Perspective

Quote:
Originally Posted by reanimator View Post
2nd Quarter results from DEG:

"Ultra HD Blu-ray Disc ... got off to a successful start in the first quarter of this year, with the first volley of Ultra HD Blu-ray discs hitting stores in March and selling far better than expected, according to studio executives.

The format’s launch was even more successful than regular Blu-ray Disc back in 2006.

More than 45 Ultra HD Blu-ray title releases were available in the first half of the year, with impressive sales of about 288,000 units."
Let's see, 288,000 total UHD BD units were sold, but that total was spread among 45 different titles. That means that an average of only about 6,000 units were sold for each available title. That's not all that impressive when you consider that in 2012 "The Avengers" sold more than 5.5 million units on 1080p Blu-ray, which is more than 900 times greater than 6,000 units.


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