Official Sony VPL-VW500ES / VW600ES 4K Projector Thread - Page 121 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #3601 of 6332 Old 09-21-2014, 06:17 AM
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Does anyone have an Oppo 103/105D and a Sony VW500-600es? If so, is it better to use the Oppo or the Sony to upscale the source to 4K?
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post #3602 of 6332 Old 09-21-2014, 08:13 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post
Many also misinterpret and think the RC of the Sony 4K models to be only a sharpening tool, it is a separete part of the Sony 4K upscaling and makes the 4K upscaling look better. But this har a weakness and it is ringing/edge enhancement and one must keep the setting to a minimum to make the problem less visible. I have not tested Mad VR or the 4K Lumagen , but I dont think it is a major upgrade compared to the Sony internal scaler.
Granted I haven't used the Sony's scaler, but you can't just make statements like that when you've never even tried MadVR or a Lumagen. How do you know you might actually prefer another scaler? My post is going off of a couple different members' experiences with trying them and seeing which they preferred. The issue with internal scaling is the limited processing capabilities they have being integrated, fixed, and thermally bound to underperform something like a modern graphics card. MadVR is better because it's performance is scalable (like the video ) depending on how much IPC performance you're able to throw at it. There is a point of diminished returns obviously but we have a VERY powerful set of scaling options at our disposal if we so choose. From those who have compared all three, they've found they liked MadVR and the Lumagen's scaling better. Even using MadVR on an e-shift X500 made for a large noticeable jump in PQ. I can't imagine Sony's scaler to be much more powerful (due to thermal restrictions) and would assume the PQ difference in scaling to be similar though the true 4K resolution of the Sony may make for a hard comparison.

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post #3603 of 6332 Old 09-21-2014, 10:11 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Granted I haven't used the Sony's scaler, but you can't just make statements like that when you've never even tried MadVR or a Lumagen. How do you know you might actually prefer another scaler? My post is going off of a couple different members' experiences with trying them and seeing which they preferred. The issue with internal scaling is the limited processing capabilities they have being integrated, fixed, and thermally bound to underperform something like a modern graphics card. MadVR is better because it's performance is scalable (like the video ) depending on how much IPC performance you're able to throw at it. There is a point of diminished returns obviously but we have a VERY powerful set of scaling options at our disposal if we so choose. From those who have compared all three, they've found they liked MadVR and the Lumagen's scaling better. Even using MadVR on an e-shift X500 made for a large noticeable jump in PQ. I can't imagine Sony's scaler to be much more powerful (due to thermal restrictions) and would assume the PQ difference in scaling to be similar though the true 4K resolution of the Sony may make for a hard comparison.
I said that I don´t think it will be a major upgrade, not that it is not better. I have also read what Mark, zombie and you write about the Lumagen and MadVr and I am sure it is better, but not a major upgrade worth spendig thousands of dollars on if you think the Sony upscaling does a good job. With the RC in the 500 and the 1100 (mine just got upgraded) I see slight ringing up close, but it is not visible from seating distance so I see no point in buying the 1080p in 4K out Lumagen or introduce a PC in my HT to get a very small difference in the upscaling. I will most likely buy the 4K in 4K out Lumagen when it arrives for sale, I am fine with the Lumagen XS for now.
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post #3604 of 6332 Old 09-21-2014, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Andreas21 View Post
I said that I don´t think it will be a major upgrade, not that it is not better. I have also read what Mark, zombie and you write about the Lumagen and MadVr and I am sure it is better, but not a major upgrade worth spendig thousands of dollars on if you think the Sony upscaling does a good job. With the RC in the 500 and the 1100 (mine just got upgraded) I see slight ringing up close, but it is not visible from seating distance so I see no point in buying the 1080p in 4K out Lumagen or introduce a PC in my HT to get a very small difference in the upscaling. I will most likely buy the 4K in 4K out Lumagen when it arrives for sale, I am fine with the Lumagen XS for now.
I've studied all the 3 up close, most viewers are going to be fine with the Sony scaling, it looks very good on the 1000 after the 1100 update and similar to the 500/600. MadVR certainly has advantages but it's not a day/night difference the average viewer will pick up on. I was not thrilled with the scaling on the Lumagen 2041, it feels a bit softer than I would prefer sitting 1.25 from my 142". I have to go back and look at it closer.
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post #3605 of 6332 Old 09-23-2014, 09:02 PM
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What is the closet the lens can be if I wanted to project a 12 foot wide image? My room is 18 .5 feet deep.

Thanks
Joey
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post #3606 of 6332 Old 09-24-2014, 04:29 AM
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High Joey. long time. The shortest throw distance is 1.38 times the screen width which is 16.56 feet. The mother vents from the front so you should be OK with a 12 ft wide screen. Its always best to mount a few inches further back than the minimum to give you a little room for minor mis measurement and to give the lens a chance to perform better a little from its extreme widest throw where it has to use the maximum amount of that curved plastic lens element.
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post #3607 of 6332 Old 09-24-2014, 04:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k View Post
I've studied all the 3 up close, most viewers are going to be fine with the Sony scaling, it looks very good on the 1000 after the 1100 update and similar to the 500/600. MadVR certainly has advantages but it's not a day/night difference the average viewer will pick up on. I was not thrilled with the scaling on the Lumagen 2041, it feels a bit softer than I would prefer sitting 1.25 from my 142". I have to go back and look at it closer.

Feels is a good word here. The ringing introduced deliberately by most every scalar out there including the one in the Sony which rings like a semi pro athlete playing in a summer office league makes things feel or look sharper. The white halo along contrast transition lines makes the transitions easier to see. Something like the back lighting on that famous Sharon Jones shot. However ringing hides detail. It has to because its like painting a halo around the darker portion of the transition. Now sitting so far back (1.25, though many sit further back) and being blinded by an excessive amount of screen gain, I doubt you would be able to discern the detail that is obscured by the noise, ringing is video noise unlike my post which is informational in most pertinent part. Unfortunately, for me, I see the ringing. Switching to a non ringing scalar, the ringing thank god goes away, though I really do not see the detail that would otherwise be obscured. The overall result is a brain registration of a softening in the image. But this is from the artificial sharpening to your eyes caused by adding a modest amount of ringing. I'd rather use the Darbee in the Lumagen turned down low which does not exhibit visible artifacting to my eyes.


Please keep this post handy. It is a definitive post and should be referred to in the future if your brain loses some of its retentive capacity as you age.
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post #3608 of 6332 Old 09-24-2014, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by egrady View Post
Does anyone have an Oppo 103/105D and a Sony VW500-600es? If so, is it better to use the Oppo or the Sony to upscale the source to 4K?
I haven't tried letting my Oppo 103 upscale, since I'm also feeding my 1080p Lumis from it, and I don't want to keep changing settings. If you have both, try it and let us know what you think. I'm happy letting the VW600 do the upscaling.

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post #3609 of 6332 Old 09-24-2014, 02:59 PM
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Thanks for the answer Mark.


Now for the next question: Constant height screen or Constant width? A lens or no A- Lens?


CH: 12 ft. wide in 2.35 mode 61 " high, 156' diagonal / 125" diagonal in 16X 9 mode which is about 9 feet wide 61" high


I could use a constant width, but I wasn't sure if that's too big. I will only sitting 16 feet back which is more than 2 times screen height of 81". inches.


And of course whether an A-Lens is needed.


Joey
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post #3610 of 6332 Old 09-24-2014, 03:10 PM
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IMO an A lens is not " needed ". It may or may not be desirable. You do have a big screen - might help with brightness in your case.

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post #3611 of 6332 Old 09-24-2014, 03:55 PM
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Last question:




I have a line on a 11 ft cine-curve constant height electric side masking screen.


It is a Stewart 1.3 gain Firehawk material, I was always thinking Studio Tech 1.3 or even 1.0 gain since my throw distance would be at the closer end of the lens throw. ( hot spotting)






IS THE 1.3 FIREHAWK A GOOD SCREEN FOR THE SONY?






Thank you!!

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post #3612 of 6332 Old 09-24-2014, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
Feels is a good word here. The ringing introduced deliberately by most every scalar out there including the one in the Sony which rings like a semi pro athlete playing in a summer office league makes things feel or look sharper. The white halo along contrast transition lines makes the transitions easier to see. Something like the back lighting on that famous Sharon Jones shot. However ringing hides detail. It has to because its like painting a halo around the darker portion of the transition. Now sitting so far back (1.25, though many sit further back) and being blinded by an excessive amount of screen gain, I doubt you would be able to discern the detail that is obscured by the noise, ringing is video noise unlike my post which is informational in most pertinent part. Unfortunately, for me, I see the ringing. Switching to a non ringing scalar, the ringing thank god goes away, though I really do not see the detail that would otherwise be obscured. The overall result is a brain registration of a softening in the image. But this is from the artificial sharpening to your eyes caused by adding a modest amount of ringing. I'd rather use the Darbee in the Lumagen turned down low which does not exhibit visible artifacting to my eyes.


Please keep this post handy. It is a definitive post and should be referred to in the future if your brain loses some of its retentive capacity as you age.
let me be more direct... I am certain that most here would prefer the MadVR scaling vs. the Lumagen and it has nothing to do with introducing ringing for a perceived sharper image. There is a reason the MadVR's algs are one of the most talked about on the forums, it does a remarkable job.

I know that the majority will not run an HTPC as their primary source but there's no taking away the technical accomplishment our friend Madshi has developed. Take a look at Lumagan vs. MadVR scaling and let me know what you think before we pass judgement.
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post #3613 of 6332 Old 09-24-2014, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by joeycalda View Post
Last question:




I have a line on a 12ft cine-curve constant height electric side masking screen.


It is a Stewart 1.3 gain Firehawk material, I was always thinking Studio Tech 1.3 or even 1.0 gain since my throw distance would be at the closer end of the lens throw. ( hot spotting)






IS THE 1.3 FIREHAWK A GOOD SCREEN FOR THE SONY?






Thank you!!

Do you have the Firehawk because you have an ambient light / reflected light compromised room?

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post #3614 of 6332 Old 09-24-2014, 04:59 PM
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I am happy to do that Zombie. I'll call you and we can set it up. You can A/B I assume.


Re the Firehawk. There is no Stewart Firehawk past or present generations with a gain of 1.3. the present G4 has a gain of 1.1. The previous Firehawks had gains of around 1.25. What G is the Firehawk you have a line on. Further if the deal is good enough, you could always just change out the fabric through your dealer. All the is needed is the serial number of the frame. You could select any Stewart fabric and hammer out your best deal.
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post #3615 of 6332 Old 09-24-2014, 05:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
I am happy to do that Zombie. I'll call you and we can set it up. You can A/B I assume.


Re the Firehawk. There is no Stewart Firehawk past or present generations with a gain of 1.3. the present G4 has a gain of 1.1. The previous Firehawks had gains of around 1.25. What G is the Firehawk you have a line on. Further if the deal is good enough, you could always just change out the fabric through your dealer. All the is needed is the serial number of the frame. You could select any Stewart fabric and hammer out your best deal.
Mark, when I come down for the CRT meet (yes I'm using this post to RSVP ), I will bring my PC with me so you can take a look at MadVR. In that case it looks like I'll be driving. It will be better to drive because this way I'll be able to bring some projectors with me too.
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post #3616 of 6332 Old 09-24-2014, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
I am happy to do that Zombie. I'll call you and we can set it up. You can A/B I assume.


Re the Firehawk. There is no Stewart Firehawk past or present generations with a gain of 1.3. the present G4 has a gain of 1.1. The previous Firehawks had gains of around 1.25. What G is the Firehawk you have a line on. Further if the deal is good enough, you could always just change out the fabric through your dealer. All the is needed is the serial number of the frame. You could select any Stewart fabric and hammer out your best deal.
It is the previous generation so I guess 1.25. I have a dedicated room with total light control and deep purple carpet and walls and 2/3 is covered with black sound absorption panels. It is 50% off retail as a used demo/moving price. I personally like the large cine-curve....which means I'll need an A lens . Stewart stills wants a lot for just the fabric 5k I think. Crazzy IMO it's not Versace.


Joey
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post #3617 of 6332 Old 09-24-2014, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Mark, when I come down for the CRT meet (yes I'm using this post to RSVP ), I will bring my PC with me so you can take a look at MadVR. In that case it looks like I'll be driving. It will be better to drive because this way I'll be able to bring some projectors with me too.

I think I just stepped into a time machine and I read about a CRT meet.
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post #3618 of 6332 Old 09-24-2014, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by mark haflich View Post
The Draper JKP Affinity .9 is a really smooth screen. Why are you guys preferring the Neve over the Snomatt 100? Both require non reflective rooms and the 100 is the mastering studio standard. Is the Neve so close in performance, the extra cost can't be justified performance wise?
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It is the previous generation so I guess 1.25. I have a dedicated room with total light control and deep purple carpet and walls and 2/3 is covered with black sound absorption panels. It is 50% off retail as a used demo/moving price. I personally like the large cine-curve....which means I'll need an A lens . Stewart stills wants a lot for just the fabric 5k I think. Crazzy IMO it's not Versace.


Joey
For a dedicated light controlled room and 12' wide screen, I would go with ST130. If the screen is not exactly what you want, you may end up having more in it, than buying the actual screen you want. As you said, replacement fabric is not cheap.
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post #3619 of 6332 Old 09-24-2014, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post
Mark, when I come down for the CRT meet (yes I'm using this post to RSVP ), I will bring my PC with me so you can take a look at MadVR. In that case it looks like I'll be driving. It will be better to drive because this way I'll be able to bring some projectors with me too.
you should see how many projectors he can fit in that tiny mazda miata.. no passengers, just a stack of projectors.
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post #3620 of 6332 Old 09-24-2014, 09:55 PM
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Is there a noticeable difference using TDG-BT500A vs SSG-5100GB glasses
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post #3621 of 6332 Old 09-24-2014, 10:47 PM
 
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you should see how many projectors he can fit in that tiny mazda miata.. no passengers, just a stack of projectors.
I was planning on leaving them at Mark's house while were at the CRT Blenzdilla meet. I doubt the host wants a bunch of measly digital displays there. I'll have to see how many I can fit in my modest Toyota Camry. I just want to personally see how my current line up of projectors compares to the Sony. The 1100ES seems to have many of the traits I find important in image quality. High ANSI contrast, good/adequate motion handling, higher than average native on/off contrast (I don't need the absolute best), a good dynamic iris implementation, excellent lens quality, motorized lens controls (having them motorized is one of those things only people who've owned a million projectors learns to appreciate), excellent lumen output, and quiet operation. The native 4K resolution panels are just icing on the cake.

You should try and make it out. It would be nice to put a face to the name. Check out the meet thread here for more info. It's Saturday, October 18th but I was planning on driving to Mark's the day before and riding along with him to the meet the next day.

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post #3622 of 6332 Old 09-25-2014, 03:00 AM
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Various points.


Joey. With your set up, using Firehawk is not the best choice since it makes trade offs in image quality to do its light rejection magic etc. St 130 is a much better choice here. It sounds like you have a line on a dealer demo screen. Nothing wrong with that. Just pound on the dealer to see how much new fabric would add and then shop around to see how much you can get a new screen for In your case, the frame masking motors etc cost a lot more than replacement fabric. so it boils down to the dollars each way, used with new fabric and new. There is no downside to used here. scren frames etc do not age.

I haven't run the Miata in a while. I am running a station wagon, lots of room.

Seegs. Sounds like you need a full day at my house. You probably need to come by Thursday night so we can spend Fri at my house, sat at the meet, and Sunday I imagine you will be driving home.

All are welcome at the meet and all are welcome to stay at my house. We have 4 guest bedrooms and it is really beautiful here on the lake and its really beautiful at the meet location in VA wine and hunt country.
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post #3623 of 6332 Old 09-25-2014, 06:25 AM
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Is there a noticeable difference using TDG-BT500A vs SSG-5100GB glasses
I have used both, but did not switch back and forth to compare. I don't think there was much difference that I can recall.
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post #3624 of 6332 Old 09-25-2014, 07:18 AM
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Here is why it's not worth it!

Home cinema manufacturers have been rushing to release new AV receivers with 4K capable HDMIs, yet only one AVR brand has implemented HDCP 2.2 and that's Onkyo. Five of its new receivers, plus one processor, offer the copy protection, albeit on a single HDMI (STB/DVR).

The chipset used is the Silicon Image SiL9679, currently the only solution available to any equipment manufacturer. The catch is that the SiL9679 doesn't support the full 4K 4:4:4: colour space; it's a compromise 4:2:0 solution, created for deployment in UHD displays.

This, I was told by representatives of both Yamaha and Denon is why their AV receivers don't implement the SI solution: 'We want to offer our customers the ultimate 4K experience," they told me as if one "and that means ensuring our 4K HDMI products support the full 4:4:4 colourspace."

The message to buyers is that they can be future-proofed with Onkyo, but possibly sacrifice some colour fidelity - or gamble with its rivals and potentially revel in all the colours that technology allows (just for fun let's assume that we'll be able to tell the difference between 4:4:4 and 4:2:0).

Of course the usual 4K caveats apply. There is no 4:4:4: UHD content available (maybe Blu-ray 4K discs will offer it, if studios ever agree to launch them). Panasonic's DMC-GH4 system camera shoots 4:2:4

So in addition none of the gear today has 10 bit color or any of the new 4K specs with improved color, and contrast ratios.

To crown it all these projector are twice the price in the US vs prices in JAPAN
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post #3625 of 6332 Old 09-25-2014, 08:17 AM
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...
Of course the usual 4K caveats apply. There is no 4:4:4: UHD content available (maybe Blu-ray 4K discs will offer it, if studios ever agree to launch them).
...
Are movies even shot in 4:4:4?
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post #3626 of 6332 Old 09-25-2014, 11:09 AM
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I heard from a custom installer that he had the new FW with low latency. Have any of you been able to measure input lag? It's a deal breaker for me.
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post #3627 of 6332 Old 09-25-2014, 02:08 PM
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So, I don't want to derail the thread, but has anyone had issues passing 4k over hdmi? I have a thread where I detail what's going on and could really use some help.

Thanks!

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/168-hd...over-hdmi.html
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post #3628 of 6332 Old 09-25-2014, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by billqs View Post
So, I don't want to derail the thread, but has anyone had issues passing 4k over hdmi? I have a thread where I detail what's going on and could really use some help.

Thanks!

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/168-hd...over-hdmi.html
My 22 ga HDMI cable does not do as well as my 40' Redmere HDMI cable, so it could be cable related. Also if it works fine when going direct and has problems once you add the switch and AVR, I doubt it is the projector. You need to add one device at a time, to find out what device is causing the problem.
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post #3629 of 6332 Old 09-25-2014, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post
My 22 ga HDMI cable does not do as well as my 40' Redmere HDMI cable, so it could be cable related. Also if it works fine when going direct and has problems once you add the switch and AVR, I doubt it is the projector. You need to add one device at a time, to find out what device is causing the problem.
Thanks, Mike! I'm glad to get your perspective since you have both a 22 awg hdmi and a redmere to conpare. I have a passive extender & also a dvigear powered extender that I'll tinker with over the weekend and I might be heading toward redmere cable.
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post #3630 of 6332 Old 09-25-2014, 04:24 PM
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Here is why it's not worth it!

Home cinema manufacturers have been rushing to release new AV receivers with 4K capable HDMIs, yet only one AVR brand has implemented HDCP 2.2 and that's Onkyo. Five of its new receivers, plus one processor, offer the copy protection, albeit on a single HDMI (STB/DVR).

The chipset used is the Silicon Image SiL9679, currently the only solution available to any equipment manufacturer. The catch is that the SiL9679 doesn't support the full 4K 4:4:4: colour space; it's a compromise 4:2:0 solution, created for deployment in UHD displays.

This, I was told by representatives of both Yamaha and Denon is why their AV receivers don't implement the SI solution: 'We want to offer our customers the ultimate 4K experience," they told me as if one "and that means ensuring our 4K HDMI products support the full 4:4:4 colourspace."

The message to buyers is that they can be future-proofed with Onkyo, but possibly sacrifice some colour fidelity - or gamble with its rivals and potentially revel in all the colours that technology allows (just for fun let's assume that we'll be able to tell the difference between 4:4:4 and 4:2:0).

Of course the usual 4K caveats apply. There is no 4:4:4: UHD content available (maybe Blu-ray 4K discs will offer it, if studios ever agree to launch them). Panasonic's DMC-GH4 system camera shoots 4:2:4

So in addition none of the gear today has 10 bit color or any of the new 4K specs with improved color, and contrast ratios.

To crown it all these projector are twice the price in the US vs prices in JAPAN

Yes, but on the other hand, the VW600 has one of the brightest and best pictures I've seen, with Blu Rays, and HDTV - both of which will be around for many years. So I'll be enjoying mine for the next 4 or 5 years while the whole 4K UHD mess sorts itself out. If it ever does. Then I can see if I need to replace it. Or not.

[email protected] JVC RS4500, Lumagen Radiance Pro, Panamorph Paladin DCR lens, Stewart Luxus Model A ElectriScreens - 128" diagonal 2.35:1 ST130 & 122" diagonal 16:9 Cima Neve, Denon X8500, Parasound A 52+ amp, Martin Logan Motion series 9.4 speakers, four SVS subs, Panasonic UB820, Oppo 203, PFP M1500 UPS
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