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post #61 of 806 Old 01-24-2014, 03:13 AM
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You won't get the comments or reviews you are looking for because the JVC auto-cal is NOT the same thing as a Calman/Chromapure set-up. There is no basis for a comparison!!

The JVC auto-cal has the meter facing the projector. The Calman/Chromapure in typical usage has the meter facing the screen. They serve two different purposes. The JVC auto-cal will improve things and may gain over the out of the box image if the gamma and greyscale was wildly off out of the box. But as it doesn't include your screen material into the equation which has its own properties that affect greyscale (colour bias in the material etc), it is not an end to end calibration mechanism. That being said it has its usefulness and its purpose. If you want to be able to get all of the presets working as they did like new again after 1000 hours, this is the tool to do it.

Also just to clarify that the auto-cal will get the projector closer to its intended performance/design. I say that rather than out of the box, because JVCs do vary a bit and some are closer to their true intention than others.
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post #62 of 806 Old 01-24-2014, 05:38 AM
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Thanks. Thats what i thought...still, i would like to see numbers proving what we all think JVC autocal does...
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post #63 of 806 Old 01-24-2014, 06:34 AM
 
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I havent run the autocal yet, but I think it's safe to say the ~$200 meter is worth it if you want better color accuracy and gamma. No one is saying it will work as well as the autocal costing many hundreds of dollars more. I did use the autocal feature on my aging Dell 3007WFP monitor and can say it made a world of difference. My X90 has a decent THX mode so the results will probably be less dramatic but definitely still noticeable, especially as the lamp ages.

For those saying it won't give you the best results.... We know that and never said that was the case. But this feature, for a very low cost, will get you pretty close.
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post #64 of 806 Old 01-24-2014, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

I havent run the autocal yet, but I think it's safe to say the ~$200 meter is worth it if you want better color accuracy and gamma. No one is saying it will work as well as the autocal costing many hundreds of dollars more. I did use the autocal feature on my aging Dell 3007WFP monitor and can say it made a world of difference. My X90 has a decent THX mode so the results will probably be less dramatic but definitely still noticeable, especially as the lamp ages.

For those saying it won't give you the best results.... We know that and never said that was the case. But this feature, for a very low cost, will get you pretty close.

Thanks for your thoughts on the issue. I'm sure a lot of members are interested in hearing more too once you've used the JVC auto-cal. I know I am smile.gif
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post #65 of 806 Old 01-29-2014, 12:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

I havent run the autocal yet, but I think it's safe to say the ~$200 meter is worth it if you want better color accuracy and gamma. No one is saying it will work as well as the autocal costing many hundreds of dollars more. I did use the autocal feature on my aging Dell 3007WFP monitor and can say it made a world of difference. My X90 has a decent THX mode so the results will probably be less dramatic but definitely still noticeable, especially as the lamp ages.

For those saying it won't give you the best results.... We know that and never said that was the case. But this feature, for a very low cost, will get you pretty close.

Hi Dylan, I recall reading a while ago that someone successfully ran the autocal with the spyder facing the screen. They said it produced a good result but with no data. If you have a bit of extra time, can you try this as well?

I have access to a Spyder 4 - as in I can borrow one for a few days at a time. I have no other meters but have downloaded HCFR and plan to try it with the spyder on my X75R. Still very interested to know what you find.
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post #66 of 806 Old 01-29-2014, 01:39 PM
 
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I did try running the JVC autocal software but the program kept freezing and didn't work. So instead I ran the Spyder4Elite autocal that comes with the colorimeter. It has you face the sensor towards the lens, not the screen. I can say it still made a noticeable difference in color over the THX mode. The only issue for some doing it this way is that you need to always use your computer as a source component to get the calibrated color. That's fine for me because I actually use my pc for everything. For others they'll want to get JVCs software to work because it writes the color/gamma info right on the projector. Hopefully others will have an easier time with JVCs software.
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post #67 of 806 Old 02-05-2014, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fisher191 View Post

Hi Dylan, I recall reading a while ago that someone successfully ran the autocal with the spyder facing the screen. They said it produced a good result but with no data. If you have a bit of extra time, can you try this as well?

I have access to a Spyder 4 - as in I can borrow one for a few days at a time. I have no other meters but have downloaded HCFR and plan to try it with the spyder on my X75R. Still very interested to know what you find.

Dylan,

Charts, graphs and numbers still won't be able to show how much better Calman/Chromapure is. User of this forum have been at the place you are know with calibration. The only way to gain more knowledge is experience. One must speak the lingo before really understanding this hobby and it will take a lot of research and time before you really appreciate the entire calibration process. Getting back to the JVC program I can't say that it won't be as good a Calman/Chromapure. I can say that the guys at Calman and Chromapure have put in a lot of work, with the help of some forum members (some Pro Calibrators others not) to their product and it has paid off. I will tell you that as you get into this hobby, as most people do, you will want a better meter than the Spyder. I think you are stuck on the Spider because the JVC software doesn't use anything else. Depending on user license with Calman and Chrompure, the calibrator is open to many different meter. This is why Coder and other recommend the D3/C6.

On the subject of auto calibration, at least for the JVC RS60/RS4810, auto calibration is not as good a manually calibrating it yourself. The JVC controls aren't matching the values listed in the auto-calibration of Calman. For example 90% can control 100%, 80% can control 80 and 80% and so on across the entire scale. Note that, Calman has a function that goes back and adjust the entire grayscale after the 1st pass of the scale and does a decent job. However I have found that I get beter results if I manually do it. As mentioned earlier you will have to get experience even to do the auto-cal. You have to manually set brightness level, contrast, select the correct tempature, color space, gamma setting and so forth. If you don't set these and other controls prior to get the PJ, you will get the "posterization" as someone posted. Trust me I went through this learning phase and still learning after 4 years.

I would suggest to all newbies to calibration go to the calibration forms here on AVS, Spectral forums, Chrompure color science, CurtPalme grayscale for dummies and of course youtube. If you don't you will not be able to get the best out of your display or equipment. Like all places of information not one place is going to have all of the answers and there are different methodologies on how get the best the calibration. Someone posted that a user should be able to calibrate there own personal display better than the pros. I totally agree with this, because you will have more time on you own display with you equipment and most importantly your own eyes.

Good luck!
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post #68 of 806 Old 02-27-2014, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

I did try running the JVC autocal software but the program kept freezing and didn't work. So instead I ran the Spyder4Elite autocal that comes with the colorimeter. It has you face the sensor towards the lens, not the screen. I can say it still made a noticeable difference in color over the THX mode. The only issue for some doing it this way is that you need to always use your computer as a source component to get the calibrated color. That's fine for me because I actually use my pc for everything. For others they'll want to get JVCs software to work because it writes the color/gamma info right on the projector. Hopefully others will have an easier time with JVCs software.

Dylan any more luck with the JVC auto calibration? Didn't know if you took another stab at it? Thinking of ordering the sensor next week to see what I can come up with

Ron
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post #69 of 806 Old 02-27-2014, 04:27 PM
 
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Originally Posted by rboster View Post

Dylan any more luck with the JVC auto calibration? Didn't know if you took another stab at it? Thinking of ordering the sensor next week to see what I can come up with

Ron

I'm going to play around with it again tonight with a different computer and hopefully I can get it to run. I'll let you know.
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post #70 of 806 Old 03-03-2014, 05:14 PM
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I finally decided to order chromapure with an eye one display.
I will soon calibrate my RS57 using those.
I was expecting more user feedback about JVC autocal software before my projector reached 200 hours...now, its too late, I will calibrate my projector the real, standard way...there is no turning back:)
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post #71 of 806 Old 03-05-2014, 03:44 AM
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Question for calibration experts:

The part "color calibration" of the JVC Projector Calibration SW V5 always shows this strange Z measuring result for red and green, regardless of the distance between Spyder / PJ:



Couldn't that be a SW bug? Can't imagine, that Z = 0.0000 is correct ...
Anyway - the cal results (color / gamma) looks good.

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post #72 of 806 Old 03-13-2014, 05:54 PM
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Hey guys. I purchase a used Spyder 4 Pro ($146 on Amazon) to calibrate my 56u. I just finished calibrating on the THX and user one modes. I also have a Darbee DVP 5000 but did remove it during calibration. After running through the calibration I do think that blacks and colors look much better. Before calibration I mainly used the THX mode with several adjustments to color, brightness and contrast. Before calibrating I switched every standard picture mode setting back to 0 and after calibration I think it looks a lot better then when I had my own settings in place. For me the $150 price was worth it. I'm sure the Calman can do a much better job but with the C5 bundle being priced at $350 I couldn't justify it for me needs. 

 

Overall after calibration and now using my new settings with the Darbee DVP 5000 I'm blown a way by the picture quality. 

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post #73 of 806 Old 03-13-2014, 06:40 PM
 
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When I ran the Auto-calibration on my X90 I thought color performance was similar to the ootb THX mode. Where I really saw the biggest difference was with gamma. After the calibration it looks a lot better now. smile.gif

For $150 it's a great investment for touch ups as the lamp ages.
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post #74 of 806 Old 03-13-2014, 07:46 PM
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I know exactly what you mean. I thought the gamma looked better after the auto calibration as well. My wife wanted to watch The Money Pit, DVD only, and I was surprised how rich the colors looked and how impressive the black levels were for a lower budget 80's film. I did pop in a few Blu Rays for my initial tests and I was very impressed with the results from the auto calibration. 

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post #75 of 806 Old 03-14-2014, 07:05 AM
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Thanks guys for your feedback on the auto-cal. Looks like I'll have to make the investment


Take Care
Ron
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post #76 of 806 Old 03-15-2014, 02:30 PM
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Hi guys,

time to share my experiences with JVC's own autocal SW on my X75.
Could be of interest to all of you with X95, X700 and X900 units (don't know, if X90 will also match).
Sorry me for my bad english grammar... frown.gif

These are my basic workflow steps for e.g. a Rec.BT709 color space calibration:

1. JVC PJ Cal SW (V5) for PC: "Color" calibration using the PJ's Picture Mode "user" + Color Profile "custom"
2. Same for "Gamma" calibration
3. Display characterization using LightSpace to get a perfect as possible 3D-LUT for my Lumagen Radiance

Ok - not every JVC owner has LightSpace or CalMAN and a LUT holder, so I'll only explain steps 1+2 as it's my PJ basis pre-calibration. Details about setting up JVC's PJ Cal SW and it's basic handling can be found in the manual, coming with the SW.

http://www3.jvckenwood.com/english/download/dla-x900r_x700r_xc7880_xc5880_rs67_rs57_rs49_calibrationsoft.html

The biggest problem of that manual - it says no word about the scope of the entire calibration range where the JVC can / should be calibrated in terms of all the differend ways of PJ operating settings (CMD mode, lamp mode, lens aperture ...)!
mad.gif

Spyder4 Probe
First I've used the Spyder4pro ... but the probe had some bad green deviation (also on red, but less) on 100% saturation readings (Rec.BT709 color space). I was puzzled after each color calibration ... every time the cal result mainly had a bad green+cyan deviation in -x direction, verified with my K10-A + i1Pro2 Spectro + using LightSpace / CalMAN. Curiously - using my 6 years old Spyder3Pro I got better results than with the Spy4 ...
confused.gif

I've complained the Spy4pro and got a Spyder4Elite as replacement -> much more useful probe. Ok, his color space measurements again are slightly outside of the 709 CIE triangle compared with K10-A readings, but at least now they lying symmetrically beyond the triangle. The Spy4Pro wasn't doing that primarily on green. Don't know, whether all Spyder4Pro are affected with that kind of deviations or not. Maybe the "Elite" is a selected / more accurate Spy4.

1. Color Space and Whitepoint Calibration
The JVC SW does that using the PJ's internal test pattern generator, W|R|G|B patterns are set at 100% luminance + maximum native saturation. Customized settings of brightness, contrast, color, ... are not considered by the pattern generator (same for "Gamma" cal below). After that the SW calculates the desired CS, loads it up into the PJ and performs a verification measurement run (named "Log"). As long as you do not click on "Save", the calibration data is only temporarily active and get lost if you switch over to another color space by remote or SW (same with "Gamma" cal).

After each first "Color" autocal with the JVC SW (next to my uploaded CS with setting "HDTV" / "D65 " / "G2.2"), the 709 color space of my X75 always is slightly reduced in maximum saturation of R+G (CMY), because the Spyder4Elite tells the JVC SW, that the maximum saturation is slightly outside of the CIE-triangle and so the SW counteracts to that.

But the Spyder4 deviations can be compensated using the feature "Create Color Space". It allows creating a CS within the PJ's native gamut limitations - perfect to make a customized CS with altered x/y coordinates on colors who needs correction, caused by Spyder readings.

After uploading such a adjusted CS I verifiy the result with the K10-A / LS, to see, where I have to alter the x/y coordinates of the respective colors using the CCS feature again. I do this procedure again and again, until I'm satisfied with the color space + D65 whitepoint result (finally I want to have a slightly larger 709 CS to have some "meat" for a perfect 3D-LUT fine-tuning calibration).

Note: After uploading a CS I have to switch over to another color profile and back to the custom profile, because sometimes my PJ won't apply the new data; primarily observed on uploaded gamma data.

2. Gamma Calibration
On factory settings my X75 has a weak red color cast on individual low end HDMI video levels between 17 ... 25; I couldn't get that corrected for 100% using the "Dark Level" OSD menu controls or any SW application (LS LUT for Radiance / CalMAN DDC). But the JVC Cal SW was able to correct that completely!

The SW enables gamma calibration on up to 33 white point luminance steps. The result is a really great RGB balanced grayscale with an absolutely correct power factor gamma value (say 2.2); only the desired whitepoint temperature isn't ok after the cal; if using "D65" in a pre-uploaded custom color space, I always get 6000 ... 6200K as result (that's why I'm forced to do a WP correction in step 1 too).



These are my basic steps, but there is a lot more to do, if you want to get the PJ completely calibrated in terms of different lens aperture settings, w/ or w/o CMD, w/ or w/o wide gamut and w/ or w/o lamp power "High"!


Complete Calibration - My experiences with the X75

a) The JVC PJ Cal SW makes fundamental adjustments on gamut and gamma tables, where some preset Picture Modes / Color Profiles ("Natural", "Cinema" ...) are referring to. So after performing an user profile calibration with the JVC SW, this takes also effect to respective picture modes / color profile presets! If you want to go back at stock settings, keep the "init" file on a safe place. This "init" file is generated by the JVC SW on the first cal run, saved on your PC in the backup folder you've set in the SW.

b) The PJ has different calibration slots for "Color" calibration data regarding the lens aperture setting! It is divided into 4 groups: 0...3 / 4...7 / 8...11 / 12...15. So I have to run the "Color" cal with lens aperture set at 0, 4, 8, 12 at a time. This is not needed for "Gamma" calibration - I do that only at lens aperture setting "0", because it gets applied on the whole lens aperture range.

c) The PJ has different calibration slots for "Color" + "Gamma" calibration data concerning the CMD mode. So it must be done once for "Off" and on a CMD mode of your choice (not needed to cal every CMD mode - just "Off" or "On").

d) Same behaviour of c) with the "Wide Gamut" feature (I guess, applicable only for the JVC models with the green filter for wide gamut profiles).

e) And finally biggrin.gifbiggrin.gifbiggrin.gif - the whole procedure must be done on lamp mode "Low" and "High" ...


Spyder4 meter position
For installing the meter I use the on-board 100% white full screen test pattern of the service menu.

I've got best "Gamma" cal results with the Spyder positioned at a distance to the PJ when Y of this white pattern is 3000cd/m² ... 3500cd/m³, measured in the center of the projected image. Lens aperture = "0", lamp mode = "Low". With this settings my Spyder's lowest reading data ( = the red channel) during the gamma calibration level 1 was >0.000

To find this position I've used CalMAN with a simple self-made layout (large font "data field" for continuous Y readings).

Btw: The Spyder4 dynamic range specification of Y is >=0.02cd/m² for the black point, >5000 for the white point. If the Spyder symbol touches the right side of the "installation window" in the JVC SW, then the probe's measurement is 5000cd/m². You shouldn't go closer to the PJ.

I got more useful cal results using my Edmund Optics white diffuser in front of the Spyder4 (accessory of my old Chroma 5 meter).

Btw - with CalMAN I could see, that the JVC Cal SW set the Spyder4 in mode "CRT Direct View".


PS - if anyone from "JVC" is reading this thread, or anyone can forward this, I would like to mention:

1. The JVC PJ Cal SW should have an option to enable/disable the "Log before" and "Log after calibration" function for "Color" / "Gamma" cal. W/o Logging the entire calibration time can be hugely reduced, concerning the many calibration runs for a whole PJ cal.

2. I'm not understanding why the SW can't calibrate the whitepoint accurate using standard settings "HDTV" + "D65". I always get 6000 ... 6200K ... way off from 6500K.

3. After the JVC "Gamma" cal the grayscale ramp starts at HDMI video level 20/21. That's a bug; should start at 17! I have to set the Radiance black level at +2 to see the GS starting from HDMI level 17.

4. Supporting more meters is highly appreciated - e.g. OEM i1 Display Pro (EODIS3) or KLEIN K10-A ... biggrin.gif

5. At least - an option to enter meter correction data (xyY for RGBW) would be great. No calibration SW should miss such a feature! mad.gif
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_________
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Harry
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post #77 of 806 Old 03-22-2014, 05:40 PM
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Has anyone had success using autocal with Calman 5 on a X55R?
I'm having no luck at all.
It or any other model x55r/RS48/RS4810 are not listed in the software as a selection.
They are listed on the Calman site as supported models http://color.spectracal.com/supported-hardware.

I was able to connect to the projector via serial by selecting JVC-RS45/55/65 X30/70/90 (RS-232) in Calman.
It shows up in the Control Information-JVC X55R/XC5800R/RS48 (19200 baud COM3)

I did a factory reset in the service menu.
I selected: Picture Mode-Cinema and left everything stock.

I'm able to run autocal with the internal JVC test patterns.
However I do not see any values change in the DDC windows or in the projector settings.
I also can't access the Brightness Factor controls-its grayed out.

Using Calman 5.3.0.1450 Ultimate with either a Spectracal C6 or a stock Xrite i1 Display Pro.

Using this guide http://www.spectracal.com/Documents/HardwareConnectivityGuides/JVC%20Projector%20QuickStart.pdf

The results are slightly worse than stock.
I'm doing something wrong or there is an issue.
Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.

These are the after autocal measurements.



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post #78 of 806 Old 03-27-2014, 09:20 PM
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After several hours and numerous phone calls to Spectracal it looks like the Grayscale, Gamma and White point values from Calman aren't getting stored to projector.
It's very frustrating as the displayed results after autocal are spectacular.
Once done if you go back and measure everything with the exception of the CMS values are gone and back to stock mad.gif
Spectracal had no idea.....
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post #79 of 806 Old 03-29-2014, 05:08 AM
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Thanks to Harry for taking time to post his experience with the. jVC autocal SW.
Too bad I could not wait and already have ordered chromapure.
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post #80 of 806 Old 03-29-2014, 10:05 AM
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"Spectracal had no idea…"

Did they say anything along the lines of "we're going to look into it and fix the problem."? I was kind of hoping to buy Calman 5 and auto-calibrate my RS-4810. It sounds as though everything works except the part that tells the projector to just save the new settings.

I'm tempted to take my i1displaypro and try running the Argyll CMS software along with a disc of test patterns to generate a spreadsheet of the color values produced by my RS-4810, and then try to calculate the required manual adjustments to my projector's settings, and then run the whole process again and see if it's gotten any closer. Rinse and repeat. It seems like it'd be a very labor-intensive process, and something that I was hoping was basically what Calman would automate (though i'd expect it has the ability to adjust the projector's internal tables, more control over the process than I'd have via the menus).

I'm pretty happy with the look I'm getting, it's definitely closer to rec.709 than my previous projector. Blacks and skin tones are great but shadow detail seems a tiny bit crushed.

I'd just like to be able to trust the thing for use on low-budget filmmaking endeavors. I've got access to a Flanders 2461w for when I grade projects, but sometimes it's nice to see a big picture projected to see how it feels.

On another note -- anyone else in the Los Angeles area with one of these JVCs and an interest in calibration want to collaborate on figuring out how to properly calibrate our projectors?
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post #81 of 806 Old 03-30-2014, 05:03 PM
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It was all rainbows and unicorns until I went to run colorcheck, I'm running though some different combinations of setting.
I'll post my results once I'm done.
See my update here: https://www.avsforum.com/t/1524873/stellar-results-using-calman-5-autocal-on-a-jvc-x55r#post_24544950
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post #82 of 806 Old 04-04-2014, 03:51 AM
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I was doing some more tweaking (never ending) on my RS-45 with the autocal in Calman. I am very impressed with the results. The biggest difference I see is in the shadow detail. I always seemed to have a slight greenish tinge to my manual calibrations. The autocal gives me better results. I do make some adjustments though. I boost color by 5 and tint by -3 in Cinema mode. This gets all my delta e's under 3 for every color except blue which I understand is the least objectionable.
I think I will save up for a Lumagen Mini and a C-6 and see how much I can get better. For now, I am re-enjoying what this projector can do.
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post #83 of 806 Old 04-04-2014, 06:54 AM
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Did anybody here ever buy the DataColor Spyder4Elite and figure out if it does anything worthwhile?

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post #84 of 806 Old 04-04-2014, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by StevenC56 View Post

Did anybody here ever buy the DataColor Spyder4Elite and figure out if it does anything worthwhile?

Post #76 should provide a real world experience for use of the spyder unit (though he used the pro, not the elite....one can assume it should be very similar).
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post #85 of 806 Old 04-05-2014, 03:48 AM
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News for JVC 2014 Projectors AutoCAL with CalMAN 5.3.x from SpectraCAL:

04 Apr 2014, 20:38

''We have one of the new JVC projectors in our lab and are working on getting them integrated into CalMan. The engineering team gave an ETA of about a month from now.''
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post #86 of 806 Old 04-05-2014, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rboster View Post

Post #76 should provide a real world experience for use of the spyder unit (though he used the pro, not the elite....one can assume it should be very similar).
First I've used the Spyder4Pro, but my one was a bad probe ... much too much unsymmetrical deviations on green and red compared with K10-A measurements.

Then I've got a Sypder4Elite as replacement part; its measuring results are closer to the K10-A, but unfortunately the 4Elite again ins't really accurate.

On a perfect 709 gamut calibrated display, where K10-A readings of 100% saturated R/G/B colors lie on spot in the CIE xy chart, same measurements done with the Spyder4Elite are little outside the triangle (pretends a larger gamut).
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post #87 of 806 Old 04-05-2014, 08:25 PM
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Some updates here from using a Lumagen Mini and Calman 5 Autocal.
https://www.avsforum.com/t/1524873/stellar-results-using-calman-5-autocal-on-a-jvc-x55r
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post #88 of 806 Old 04-13-2014, 08:42 AM
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post #89 of 806 Old 04-13-2014, 08:52 AM
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Thanks for the heads up
Its interesting other than improved gamma everything is looks the same or worse.
They should compare/contrast the Calman 5 autocal when ready for the new series.
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post #90 of 806 Old 04-13-2014, 05:30 PM
 
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Glad to hear Cine4Home had a similar experience I had with the auto-cal + Spyder4Elite. Color performance is a tad better than the THX setting, but gamma looks noticeably better with my X90. For $175 it's totally worth the investment for those not looking for a "perfect" calibration and can live with near-perfect color and gamma performance. Cine4home doesn't indicate which Spyder colorimeter it used for the test. Make sure you spend the extra money on the Spyder4Elite. It's accuracy is by far better than the other similar colorimeters that DataColor sells and are compatible with the JVC Auto-Cal. It will definitely provide better, more consistent, results than the Spyder4Pro or Spyder3 colorimeters.
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