JVC + Da-Lite HP versus Brighter Projectors + Gray Screens - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 17 Old 10-12-2013, 04:27 PM - Thread Starter
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I had a JVC RS40 which I used together with a Da-Lite 110" High Power screen. I have had this idea that bright projectors such as the recent Epson/Panasonic ones (or even DLPs such as W7000) which have lower native contrast can still generate a 2D image that can match that of a JVC if they are paired with a gray screen. The gray screen compensate for and improves the black levels while the quality of their whites may not suffer from the gray material thanks to their high brightness level.

All comparisons I have seen so far compare projectors only on the same screen. I am wondering if anybody has done a comparison between

a JVC projector coupled with a Da-Lite 2.4 gain HP screen

and,

a good quality LCD (or DLP) projector such as Epson 5010/5020/6010/6020 or, Panasonic 7000/8000 (Benq W7000, Optoma HD8600/8300) coupled with a gray screen?

What I care about is overall image quality including brightness, black levels, sharpness and color performance. In the past, I had a Marantz 12S4 together with an Optoma graywolf II screen and while the image quality was great but it was too dim to my taste (not surprising). Now I think a bright projector can do a great job with a gray screen.

I still have my HP screen while recently sold the projector. However, I have the option of acquiring a Stewart Grayhawk screen at a great price. I thought maybe if the Grayhawk is combined with a bright projector, I might like the picture just as much as my previous setup.

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post #2 of 17 Old 10-12-2013, 04:35 PM
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I have not, unless your main aim is amazing 3d take the w7000 of you list (stunning 3d, lacking 2d). I have not used the new Epson 5030 but I would venture that or something like the 5030 or jvc x35 (something I have seen) with a 1.0 gain screen is what you want if black levels, sharpness and color performance are your primary concerns. Brightness will of course depend on your screen size.
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post #3 of 17 Old 10-12-2013, 04:55 PM
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I am not really sure why you would be asking this unless you did not have your projector set up in the optimal location for your seating. If your JVC was placed in the optimal location for the HP 2.4 and you were using the latest Revision of lamp in the RS40 it should have been more than bright enough on eco with the iris partly closed .

If you are looking for a new projector, Seegs108 has a Marantz VP15s1 with an A lens for $2100 and another guy has one without the lens for $1500 on ebay.. I would bet the farm a 15s1 on your HP screen would blow away anything you are currently contemplating... I am using a Planar 8150 on a 110" HP 2.8 so blackleve is not as important to me as bright, sharp, clean and color accuracy.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Marantz-DLP-Projector-VP15S1-VP-15S1-/141073427232?pt=US_Video_Projectors&hash=item20d8a1ab20

Don't see seegs108's unit.. not sure if it sold or the auction just ended..

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post #4 of 17 Old 10-12-2013, 04:58 PM
 
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Originally Posted by airscapes View Post

I am not really sure why you would be asking this unless you did not have your projector set up in the optimal location for your seating. If your JVC was placed in the optimal location for the HP 2.4 and you were using the latest Revision of lamp in the RS40 it should have been more than bright enough on eco with the iris partly closed .

If you are looking for a new projector, Seegs108 has a Marantz VP15s1 with an A lens for $2100 and another guy has one without the lens for $1500 on ebay.. I would bet the farm a 15s1 on your HP screen would blow away anything you are currently contemplating... I am using a Planar 8150 on a 110" HP 2.8 so blackleve is not as important to me as bright, sharp, clean and color accuracy.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Marantz-DLP-Projector-VP15S1-VP-15S1-/141073427232?pt=US_Video_Projectors&hash=item20d8a1ab20

Don't see seegs108's unit.. not sure if it sold or the auction just ended..

I just sold the anamorphic lens system to someone with an 11S2. The 15S1 projector is still for sale. If anyone is interested please PM me.
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post #5 of 17 Old 10-12-2013, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

I just sold the anamorphic lens system to someone with a 11S2. The 15S1 projector is still for sale.
Hey that's great, bet that works out better in the end!

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post #6 of 17 Old 10-12-2013, 06:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Clarification: my Marantz broke down and I couldn't find any local service centre to repair it. Therefore, while they used to be great projectors, I am unwilling to buy another one now that this production line has been ceased. And even though they produce great picture, they lack some of the more modern features such as support for 24p or 3D.

I never said rs40 + Da-Lite HP was dim. It was perfectly adequately bright for 2D watching and, the picture quality was nothing short of great. I had to sell my RS40 because I needed funds for another purpose. Now I am able to buy a replacement but I am contemplating other combination alternatives may just be as good or even better in some aspects.

Thanks.

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post #7 of 17 Old 10-12-2013, 06:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by raminolta View Post

Clarification: my Marantz broke down and I couldn't find any local service centre to repair it. Therefore, while they used to be great projectors, I am unwilling to buy another one now that this production line has been ceased. And even though they produce great picture, they lack some of the more modern features such support for 24p or 3D.

I never said rs40 + Da-Lite HP was dim. It was perfectly adequately bright for 2D watching and, the picture quality was nothing short of great. I had to sell my RS40 because I needed funds for another purpose. Now I am able to buy a replacement but I am contemplating other combination alternatives may just be as good or even better in some aspects.

Thanks.

The 1080p ones do 24p at 48hz like other DLP projectors just fine. You don't need to force it, it's in the EDID.
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post #8 of 17 Old 10-12-2013, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raminolta View Post

I have had this idea that bright projectors such as the recent Epson/Panasonic ones (or even DLPs such as W7000) which have lower native contrast can still generate a 2D image that can match that of a JVC if they are paired with a gray screen. The gray screen compensate for and improves the black levels while the quality of their whites may not suffer from the gray material thanks to their high brightness level.

Can be true or false depending on the situation.

Gray screens reduce whites by the same level as blacks so do not increase projected CR.

If the room is dark CR will be mostly determined by the pj CR.

But if the black level is determined by ambient light, a brighter pj (with or without a gray screen, doesn't matter) may give higher on-screen CR.

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post #9 of 17 Old 10-12-2013, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post



Can be true or false depending on the situation.

Gray screens reduce whites by the same level as blacks so do not increase projected CR.

If the room is dark CR will be mostly determined by the pj CR.

But if the black level is determined by ambient light, a brighter pj (with or without a gray screen, doesn't matter) may give higher on-screen CR.

these are my thoughts as well.

I have a matte white and grey screen. I like the grey because it lowers the black level, but it does not increase the contrast at all. as much as it lowers the blacks, it also lowers the whites. when viewed side by side, the difference in whites is very noticeable. it does seem as though my eyes adjust, and without the white screen for reference I do not find the grey screen 'dark', but it's very clear with test patterns that there is no advantage in contrast or gradation. it simply makes the image darker from 'black' to 'white'.

I would also add that you should be comparing calibrated lumens. you mentioned the Epson vs JVC, but to my understanding the JVC is actually a couple lumens brighter than the Epson after calibration. you certainly can get more light from the Epson, but not without sacrificing picture quality.

imo, the projector matters the most in a dark room. that is what controls picture quality and contrast. the screen is best used to deal with room conditions. that is a grey screen is better with some ambient lighting or light colored walls. a grey screen combined with a brighter projector that has less contrast will just result in an equally dark image with less contrast.

I have tried an older Epson that had way less contrast than the jvc on both my white and grey screens. I can absolutely say that it wasn't even close to the jvc on either screen. the grey did help a lot with lowering black levels, but it did not help contrast, and shadow details were never there like they are with the jvc.

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post #10 of 17 Old 10-12-2013, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post

I have a matte white and grey screen. I like the grey because it lowers the black level, but it does not increase the contrast at all.
You may know this (you mentioned the light colored walls situation), but just to be clear for some readers, the gray can help the ANSI CR retention. It doesn't help the on/off CR (other than a case I'll mention), but it can reduce the effect of room reflections.

It won't help the system on/off CR (the on/off CR off the screen) even with room lights on other than a situation like where a person doesn't want the images to be too bright and can use a dark screen with a bright projector to get higher system on/off CR at about the same ft-lamberts for white. If a person doesn't care about the images being too bright then the gray screen won't help the system on/off CR. As an example, a 10k lumen projector on a .1 gain screen could retain on/off CR well with other lighting without having the images be at the extremely bright level they would be at with the same projected light on a 1.0 gain screen.

Also, to be clear for some readers, the above is about screens with the same directionality. If somebody compares a matte white to say a High Power or Firehawk, those latter 2 screens have directionality (higher gain to some areas) and so can improve system on/off CR when there are room lights on or light coming in and it is from lower gain directions than the projected light is for a particular viewer's position.

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post #11 of 17 Old 10-13-2013, 05:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Seegs108 View Post

The 1080p ones do 24p at 48hz like other DLP projectors just fine. You don't need to force it, it's in the EDID.

Thanks for the info. I noticed you are selling a W7000 too. I guess, you were using the Marantz for 2D movies and the W7000 for 3D ones and now you have switched to one single projector for both, right? What are you using now?

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post #12 of 17 Old 10-13-2013, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

You may know this (you mentioned the light colored walls situation), but just to be clear for some readers, the gray can help the ANSI CR retention. It doesn't help the on/off CR (other than a case I'll mention), but it can reduce the effect of room reflections.

It won't help the system on/off CR (the on/off CR off the screen) even with room lights on other than a situation like where a person doesn't want the images to be too bright and can use a dark screen with a bright projector to get higher system on/off CR at about the same ft-lamberts for white. If a person doesn't care about the images being too bright then the gray screen won't help the system on/off CR. As an example, a 10k lumen projector on a .1 gain screen could retain on/off CR well with other lighting without having the images be at the extremely bright level they would be at with the same projected light on a 1.0 gain screen.

Also, to be clear for some readers, the above is about screens with the same directionality. If somebody compares a matte white to say a High Power or Firehawk, those latter 2 screens have directionality (higher gain to some areas) and so can improve system on/off CR when there are room lights on or light coming in and it is from lower gain directions than the projected light is for a particular viewer's position.

--Darin

good point, I mentioned the grey being better in lighter rooms, but didn't clarify this. thanks

that was definitely the reason I got the grey screen. one, my Epson had terrible blacks, and two, my room was fairly bright. I still use the grey screen most often with the jvc(and I have darkened my room considerably too) because i'm kind of a nut for black being black.

I would still reiterate though, that if your room is perfectly dark, then screens aren't going to help contrast. they are designed to fight room issues, not projector issues(with exception of high gain helping dim projectors look brighter). so I still would not say a grey screen paired with a low contrast projector will improve contrast.

maybe we should be looking at it the other way. a grey screen helps PRESERVE contrast. so the only way a low contrast projector will look as good or better than a high contrast projector is if you ruin the contrast on the better projector. you can never increase the lower projectors contrast to match the good one, but you could lower the good ones to match the bad one.

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post #13 of 17 Old 10-13-2013, 11:01 AM - Thread Starter
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In my room, the walls are all covered with very dark brown curtains (almost black) but the ceiling is uncovered white and the floor is light wood color.

Regarding the claim that Marantz is clearly better than JVC monitors, I seriously doubt all experts would agree with it., well, I am no expert and to my eyes both the Marantz and JVC I had, were great projectors. I admit if I find an exceptionally good deal on a Marantz, I would still be very tempted by it.

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post #14 of 17 Old 10-13-2013, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raminolta View Post

In my room, the walls are all covered with very dark brown curtains (almost black) but the ceiling is uncovered white and the floor is light wood color.

As per claim that Marantz is clearly better than JVC monitors ( I seriously doubt all experts would agree with the claim), well; I am no expert and to my eyes both the Marantz and JVC I had were great projectors. I admit if I find an exceptionally good deal on a Marantz, I would still be tempted to buy
it.

I did not say the VP15 would be better than a JVC although in some aspects of the image I would bet it is.. I said the VP15 with the HP screen would be a better over all image than what the OP was suggesting.
Quote here I was referring to..
I have had this idea that bright projectors such as the recent Epson/Panasonic ones (or even DLPs such as W7000) which have lower native contrast can still generate a 2D image that can match that of a JVC if they are paired with a gray screen.

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post #15 of 17 Old 10-13-2013, 02:03 PM
 
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Thanks for the info. I noticed you are selling a W7000 too. I guess, you were using the Marantz for 2D movies and the W7000 for 3D ones and now you have switched to one single projector for both, right? What are you using now?

It's a BenQ W20000 so no 3D. The Marantz VP-15S1 paired with the right screen and in the right room still looks better with 2D material compared to 90% of other projectors out there today. I have seen a lot projectors and can testify to that statement. I'm currently using a JVC DLA-X55R as my personal projector and I find it lacking in a few key areas that the Marantz (a design that's 7 years old mind you) does better. I think I've bought and sold about 26 projectors in the last 2.5 years to test out personally. While I have some issues with the JVC, I go through way too many projectors and it's about time I settle down and wait it out with this JVC until 4K comes down in cost or I can snag a good deal on a Sony 1000ES. There are only 2-3 more 1080p projectors I still want to see. Two of them are Sim2 models and one is a Samsung model.
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post #16 of 17 Old 10-15-2013, 02:23 PM - Thread Starter
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One reason I have been tempted by Epson projectors is the following reviews:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/projectors/projectors-reviews/epson-powerlite-home-cinema-5010e-lcd-projector-review/all-pages.html

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/projectors/projectors-reviews/epson-powerlite-home-cinema-5020ube-3d-lcd-projector/all-pages.html

The reviewer claims the Epsons have some of the best black levels he has seen that are comparable to his Anthem LTX-500 (which as I understand, uses the JVC's D-ILA technology). His conclusion is very positive about the Epson's recent projectors:


Lots of light output
Excellent native contrast
Accurate color and grayscale after calibration
Flat gamma tracking
Excellent lens and screen uniformity
Wireless HDMI adds convenience with five inputs
No visible crosstalk and a bright picture makes for excellent 3D

The same site also has a high regard for the Mitsubishi HC8000D-BL claiming its black levels approach that of LCOS technology.

Nevertheless, other people/reviewers generally do not think Epson projectors are as fine as JVC ones, and particularly in regard to black levels they consider them noticeably inferior. This inconsistency in reviews is confusing me. in particular, I thought the above website is a reliable source and their reviews are accurate.

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post #17 of 17 Old 10-15-2013, 03:29 PM
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you're right. I can't stand auto irises, and that was the big selling feature for the jvc for me. if the Epson is barely as good as the jvc when the iris is on, there's pretty much no chance of it competing with the iris off. and it HAS to be off for me.

I think that iris might be the reason for the discrepancies too. the Epson can do black well if it's a really dark scene, but something that's half dark half bright won't look nearly as good as the jvc. I don't want to steer you too far from the Epson, the only one I've had is a few years old now and not in the same range of the jvc or 5020. it was very reliable and treated me well. I've just never been able to use the auto iris on it, and I've been enticed by the d-ila technology since the first rs1 review I read. I just knew i'd never be happy with the Epson, because I'd always wonder how much better the jvc was.

if you can view both and then decide, I wouldn't look back. that's hard to do sometimes. I didn't have the option of viewing either before purchase

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