Projectors shootout epson EH-TW7200 vs. JVC DLA-X500 vs. SONY HW55ES - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 29 Old 03-03-2014, 09:56 AM - Thread Starter
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I just put online the results of a direct shootout between the EPSON EH-TW7200, the JVC DLA-X500 and the SONY VPL-HW55ES.

After the studdy about 15 points of comparaison, the SONY VPL-HW55ES is our best choice :

You can discover the shootout with a lots of PICS here :

http://www.projection-homecinema.fr/2014/03/02/test-comparatif-jvc-dla-x500-vs-sony-vpl-hw55es-vs-epson-eh-tw7200/

google translation :

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=fr&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=fr&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.projection-homecinema.fr%2F2014%2F03%2F02%2Ftest-comparatif-jvc-dla-x500-vs-sony-vpl-hw55es-vs-epson-eh-tw7200%2F

DVD comparaison for exemple :

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post #2 of 29 Old 03-03-2014, 12:19 PM
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Excellent Shootout, thanks for sharing.

The article stated the measures were taken in a 2.30m screen, so i presume it was a 106" screen?

Regarding the native contrast, both the Sony and JVC were measure with "low fashion lamp, fixed iris fully open".
Could you estimate how would be the brightness and contrast measures if the iris would be closed in both JVC and the Sony (Maintaining the lamp in the LOW mode)?
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post #3 of 29 Old 03-03-2014, 12:35 PM
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JVC DLA-X500: 7381:1 on: off eek.gif I realize it's iris wide open but still... isn't that less than what previous models was measured?
I sense a bias towards Sony here.
Also, all projectors were presumably calibrated to D65. Why such difference?
pjhc-hw55-vs-x500.jpg
Quote:
SONY VPL-HW55ES: 29dB

EPSON EH-TW7200 30 DB

JVC DLA-X500: 30.5 DB
Does half a decibel provide for 1 point of difference in score? A rhetorical question.

I'm sorry but in a serious point-based review each criteria would be given a weight, for example, contrast is 10x multiplier, color is 7x, noise is 2x multipler and menus are 1x multiplier. It's just my opinion, but you can't compare each of these criteria (build quality, brightness, contrast, color performance etc. etc.) and make them look like they're of equal importance and sum up all points for a total score...
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post #4 of 29 Old 03-03-2014, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elix View Post

JVC DLA-X500: 7381:1 on: off eek.gif I realize it's iris wide open but still... isn't that less than what previous models was measured?
I sense a bias towards Sony here.

Yes, either the pj or the measurement must be defective.

Noah
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post #5 of 29 Old 03-03-2014, 09:48 PM
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The X500 should get at least 25,000:1 with the iris open and 45,000:1 closed from reports. But contrast ratio isn't everything
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post #6 of 29 Old 03-04-2014, 05:23 AM
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I all ready own the HW55ES = smile.gif !!!
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post #7 of 29 Old 03-04-2014, 07:18 AM
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Kraine, you most likely forgot the most important category for most people -- PRICE!

JVC = 1 out of 5
Sony = 3 out of 5
Epson = 5 out of 5

Not that this would change the overall final positioning. The JVC is 250% more expensive than the Epson and the fact that the Epson is even in the same test is very telling. The Sony is over 50% more expensive. Were you comparing apples to apples or apples to oranges?

For disclosure purposes I do own a number of Epson projectors but I also own several others including Mits., Sharp, Panasonic and Acer.
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post #8 of 29 Old 03-04-2014, 07:29 AM
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The TW-7200 is what version for the U.S.?
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post #9 of 29 Old 03-04-2014, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

Kraine, you most likely forgot the most important category for most people -- PRICE!

JVC = 1 out of 5
Sony = 3 out of 5
Epson = 5 out of 5

Not that this would change the overall final positioning. The JVC is 250% more expensive than the Epson and the fact that the Epson is even in the same test is very telling. The Sony is over 50% more expensive. Were you comparing apples to apples or apples to oranges?

For disclosure purposes I do own a number of Epson projectors but I also own several others including Mits., Sharp, Panasonic and Acer.

The JVC MSRP is not 250% higher than the MSRP price of the Epson. Also the MSRP and the street price of the Epson is the same. That would put the MSRP of the JVC at $6,497.5. The MSRP is quite a bit lower and the street is even lower. Not arguing that the Epson is not a good value, because it is a good value. A lot of projector for the money. The lack of lens memory, makes it a non starter for anyone wanting a CIH setup. Same goes for the Sony.
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post #10 of 29 Old 03-04-2014, 08:02 AM
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I think the tw7200 is the 4030 in the US.
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post #11 of 29 Old 03-04-2014, 08:45 AM
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Either the JVC is defective, or your contrast measurements are way off for whatever reason. Every other measurement/report is MUCH higher than that even with some older models like the RS40! I am not familiar enough with the other projectors, but contrast readings on all three seem low..........
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post #12 of 29 Old 03-04-2014, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

The JVC MSRP is not 250% higher than the MSRP price of the Epson. Also the MSRP and the street price of the Epson is the same. That would put the MSRP of the JVC at $6,497.5. The MSRP is quite a bit lower and the street is even lower. Not arguing that the Epson is not a good value, because it is a good value. A lot of projector for the money. The lack of lens memory, makes it a non starter for anyone wanting a CIH setup. Same goes for the Sony.

1,999 Pounds vs. 4,999 Pounds is not 250%? This is not a U.S. only site -- there are a lot of members here from other places that are subject to different pricing. I believe you should qualify your comments. Also, I have never paid the MSRP for an Epson. We can argue over pricing until the cows come home. However, there is a significant difference in price between all three of these projectors. If the price differential with respect to projectors costing $10,000 or less was only $500 then I'd give in and say it's a fair contest. If the price differential is $1,000 or more then we're not talking about projectors in the same pricing category unless we're talking in the above $20,000 forum where nobody cares about pricing. There's a larger pricing difference between the Epson and JVC (given the figures used in the review) than there is between the Epson and an Optoma LV-25. Should the Optoma LV-25 be compared to the Epson? I guess so and if the LV-25 compares favourably then I guess its a great buy -- in fact why would anyone even look at an Epson when you could buy something at a fraction of the price, which is for all intents and purposes just as good (assuming the LV-25 tested very favourably to the Epson)? One thing is for sure -- if the review is accurate then the Sony (as winner) looks like a tremendous buy when compared to the JVC. If the review is not particularly accurate then the whole discussion and ensuing arguments about these three projectors is moot.
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post #13 of 29 Old 03-04-2014, 10:07 AM
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I generally agree with most of what is in the review but each category can't be weighted equally like already mentioned. Some factors like picture quality should be weighted more than issues like fan noise, menus, etc.
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post #14 of 29 Old 03-04-2014, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

1,999 Pounds vs. 4,999 Pounds is not 250%? This is not a U.S. only site -- there are a lot of members here from other places that are subject to different pricing. I believe you should qualify your comments. Also, I have never paid the MSRP for an Epson. We can argue over pricing until the cows come home. However, there is a significant difference in price between all three of these projectors. If the price differential with respect to projectors costing $10,000 or less was only $500 then I'd give in and say it's a fair contest. If the price differential is $1,000 or more then we're not talking about projectors in the same pricing category unless we're talking in the above $20,000 forum where nobody cares about pricing. There's a larger pricing difference between the Epson and JVC (given the figures used in the review) than there is between the Epson and an Optoma LV-25. Should the Optoma LV-25 be compared to the Epson? I guess so and if the LV-25 compares favourably then I guess its a great buy -- in fact why would anyone even look at an Epson when you could buy something at a fraction of the price, which is for all intents and purposes just as good (assuming the LV-25 tested very favourably to the Epson)? One thing is for sure -- if the review is accurate then the Sony (as winner) looks like a tremendous buy when compared to the JVC. If the review is not particularly accurate then the whole discussion and ensuing arguments about these three projectors is moot.

I missed that the Epson model was the 4030 and not the 5030. I did not qualify my pricing as US, but then you did not qualify your pricing was based on pounds. smile.gif Here in the US, the street price of a JVC RS4910 is not 250% the street price of an Epson 4030, more like 154%.
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post #15 of 29 Old 03-04-2014, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xb1032 View Post

I generally agree with most of what is in the review but each category can't be weighted equally like already mentioned. Some factors like picture quality should be weighted more than issues like fan noise, menus, etc.

Fan noise can be very distracting, so is important to me. The Sony is nearly inaudible.
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post #16 of 29 Old 03-04-2014, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Jon Middleton View Post

Fan noise can be very distracting, so is important to me. The Sony is nearly inaudible.

I agree that fan noise is important but to most it's not going to be equally as important as picture quality. As far as noise is concerned your environment is going to dictate the importance of that as well. I had the HW50 and it is definitely more quiet than my RS4910 but now that the HW50 has been gone for a few weeks it's not that noticeable in my environment when watching a movie.
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post #17 of 29 Old 03-04-2014, 08:08 PM
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...would it not be easier to just build a housing enclosure for the epson so that the noise can be controlled to a certain degree?...
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post #18 of 29 Old 03-04-2014, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Ed Weinman View Post

...would it not be easier to just build a housing enclosure for the epson so that the noise can be controlled to a certain degree?...
That is exactly what I was prepared to do if needed for my 5030UB - the projector is mounted close to the ceiling which is currently open to the rafters, so it would be dead simple to put one together while framing the drop ceiling for the room perimeter. I was very pleased to find out that I don't find the high lamp fan noise (when used) at all objectionable, so for me that's not going to be necessary.
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post #19 of 29 Old 03-04-2014, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deja Vu View Post

1,999 Pounds vs. 4,999 Pounds is not 250%?
4999 is 150% more than 1999, or 250% of 1999.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xb1032 View Post

I generally agree with most of what is in the review but each category can't be weighted equally like already mentioned.
I remember years ago Greg Rogers (reviewing for Widescreen Review at the time) mentioned that he had tried coming up with a scoring system or number of factors that favored one projector, but that what he had found up until then was that his eyes preferred the projector with the better CR regardless of the scores or how many categories the other projector won.

I honestly don't know why these JVCs get measured with such low on/off CRs when Kraine measures them. I've posted about this before. I don't believe the answer is white walls because the physics and math there are pretty simple (1.1x/1.1y still equals x/y) despite many people's claims that white walls by themselves cause bad on/off CR. I wouldn't expect measurements to be this low even in a white room unless there are other light sources or the brightness of the projector has been raised so that what comes out on an all black image is quite a bit brighter than what comes out with Hide.

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This is the AV Science Forum. Please don't be gullible and please do remember the saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
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post #20 of 29 Old 03-05-2014, 04:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

4999 is 150% more than 1999, or 250% of 1999.
I remember years ago Greg Rogers (reviewing for Widescreen Review at the time) mentioned that he had tried coming up with a scoring system or number of factors that favored one projector, but that what he had found up until then was that his eyes preferred the projector with the better CR regardless of the scores or how many categories the other projector won.

I honestly don't know why these JVCs get measured with such low on/off CRs when Kraine measures them. I've posted about this before. I don't believe the answer is white walls because the physics and math there are pretty simple (1.1x/1.1y still equals x/y) despite many people's claims that white walls by themselves cause bad on/off CR. I wouldn't expect measurements to be this low even in a white room unless there are other light sources or the brightness of the projector has been raised so that what comes out on an all black image is quite a bit brighter than what comes out with Hide.

--Darin

I believe you're right about the higher contrast -- it probably counts for triple compared to other categories. I think the same applies to some extent to ghost-free for 3D. I'll give up some contrast (up to a point) and other things for a ghost-free 3D image. Contrast doesn't seem to be as big a factor for 3D as it is for 2D due to the large loss of light (I would guess).
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post #21 of 29 Old 03-05-2014, 05:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

I honestly don't know why these JVCs get measured with such low on/off CRs when Kraine measures them. I've posted about this before.

On the other hand they all seemed low to me, but relative to each other (in the review) the numbers were not unexpected, JVC about twice the Sony, and both of them way higher than the Epson (maybe I'm off base on that, I haven't followed them that closely).
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post #22 of 29 Old 03-05-2014, 08:17 AM
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The native contrast for the Epson 7200 was noted as 1770:1 in the shoot-out review:

"Here are our respective measures
JVC DLA-X500: 7381:1 on: off

SONY VPL-HW55ES: 3845:1 on: off

EPSON EH-TW7200: 1770:1 on: off"

In your review of the Epson 9200 the native contrast was noted as 8,025:1. I would have thought the Epson 9200 would have been the projector you would have used for the shoot-out.

"Calibrated native contrast: 8025:1
Calibrated dynamic contrast: 16050:1
High brightness light 385 lux or lumens 1119 lumens
321 lux low light lamp lumens or 958 lumens
We obtain a value of native almost 3 times greater than that we measured on the TW9100 contrast. Visually blacks are deep and do not require anything activating the dynamic iris."

What am I missing here?

http://translate.google.fr/translate?sl=fr&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=fr&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.projection-homecinema.fr%2F2014%2F02%2F19%2Fepson-eh-tw9200w-test-du-projecteur%2F
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post #23 of 29 Old 03-05-2014, 09:18 AM
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Touché. Don't want to diminish kraine's work but there's so much wrong with this shoot-out.
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post #24 of 29 Old 03-05-2014, 07:05 PM
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I think kraine explained in one of the JVC threads the reason why his contrast readings were so low. It had something to do with the room he uses do do his tests. Though absolutely inaccurate, their relative values seem credible.
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post #25 of 29 Old 03-06-2014, 01:37 AM
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This is about as valid as projectorcentral's Epson vs Runco article.
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post #26 of 29 Old 03-06-2014, 04:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickoakdl View Post

This is about as valid as projectorcentral's Epson vs Runco article.

I completely disagree. In the PC article they made an attempt to disclose (and a pretty good one) just what they were attempting to do. They may have been been comparing apples to oranges but they pointed out the differences between the projectors and then compared them in an environment that was compatible to the environment to which most of their readers could relate. They made an attempt to level the playing field and then looked at the tools each projector brought to the table to deal with particular points of interest -- i.e. sharpness, calibration, motion, brightness, etc. Was it completely fair? Probably not but there was disclosure and at least an attempt at fairness.

In Kraine's review, for some reason the 7200 was put up against much more expensive projectors rather than the Epson 9200, which is still cheaper than the competition. Kraine had reviewed the 9200 prior to this shoot out and found it had a native contrast that was even higher than the number used in the shoot out for the JVC. What can we take from this? If some of the contrast numbers are suspect then does this not impugn all the contrast numbers in these reviews? No? How does one reconcile a native contrast number of 1,770:1 and another of 8,025:1? The 7200 and 9200 are different projectors but made by the same manufacturer -- which begs the question as to why an inferior Epson was used rather than a still less expensive than the competition but superior one was not? Is this not a valid question that deserves an explanation? With respect to contrast numbers -- which are legitimate numbers and which are not? Are we to believe the numbers that suit our particular agendas and discard all others? Do these reviews have any value at all besides an entertainment one? One needs to cross all the "T's" and dot all the "I's" -- if not, then one mistake can call into question the credibility of everything presented. Once you've lost credibility it is difficult to regain it. An ounce of prevention is worth a ton of cure. There may be reasonable explanations -- I'd like to hear them in order to assuage my concerns that this shoot out may not have been "fair and balanced" or conducted in a reasonably scientific manner.

Another JVC review -- Full on/off CR of 38,000:1

Sony VW55 review: Full on/off CR of 7500:1

Epson 9200 review: Full on/off CR of 8000:1

Go to the bottom of the first page in the link below for a list of projectors and click on either the JVC, Sony or Epson links.

http://translate.google.ca/translate?hl=en&sl=nl&u=http://www.fwdmagazine.be/fwd/152795/preview-optoma-hd91/&prev=/search?q%3Dhd91%2Breviews%26start%3D20%26client%3Dsafari%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Den%26biw%3D1588%26bih%3D769
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post #27 of 29 Old 12-01-2015, 07:08 AM
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Hi Guys,
I think there was something wrong with the reviewed JVC DLA X500 projector... This article can't be true!
I own a Sony VPL-VW50ES (pretty much the same like the VW55ES) and a JVC X500 as well, so i had the chance to compare them side by side and i wouldn't even put them in the same category. No way!
The JVC is MUCH better in contrast, in colours and sharpness as well. If i say 6 for Sony's black i have to say 10 for the JVC black... so this comparison is ridiculous here. The whole optic system of JVC's feels much serious and the difference in reality is shocking! Actually i just upgraded from my old Sony VW50ES to the JVC X500.
So, the Sony is a good machine, but JVC is much better in my humble opinion.

Projector JVC DLA-X5000W Media player Dune HD Base 3D AV Receiver Pioneer SC-2022 Speakers FRONT: Klipsch RP-280 CENTER: Klipsch RP-450C SUBWOOFER: Klipsch R-115SW SURROUND: Klipsch RP-250S
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post #28 of 29 Old 12-01-2015, 07:08 AM
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Hi Guys,
I think there was something wrong with the reviewed JVC DLA X500 projector... This article can't be true!
I own a Sony VPL-VW50ES (pretty much the same like the VW55ES) and a JVC X500 as well, so i had the chance to compare them side by side and i wouldn't even put them in the same category. No way!
The JVC is MUCH better in contrast, in colours and sharpness as well. If i say 6 for Sony's black i have to say 10 for the JVC black... so this comparison is ridiculous here. The whole optic system of JVC's feels much serious and the difference in reality is shocking! Actually i just upgraded from my old Sony VW50ES to the JVC X500.
So, the Sony is a good machine, but JVC is much better in my humble opinion.

Projector JVC DLA-X5000W Media player Dune HD Base 3D AV Receiver Pioneer SC-2022 Speakers FRONT: Klipsch RP-280 CENTER: Klipsch RP-450C SUBWOOFER: Klipsch R-115SW SURROUND: Klipsch RP-250S
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post #29 of 29 Old 12-01-2015, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by djkutasi View Post
Hi Guys,
I think there was something wrong with the reviewed JVC DLA X500 projector... This article can't be true!
I own a Sony VPL-VW50ES (pretty much the same like the VW55ES) and a JVC X500 as well, so i had the chance to compare them side by side and i wouldn't even put them in the same category. No way!
The JVC is MUCH better in contrast, in colours and sharpness as well. If i say 6 for Sony's black i have to say 10 for the JVC black... so this comparison is ridiculous here. The whole optic system of JVC's feels much serious and the difference in reality is shocking! Actually i just upgraded from my old Sony VW50ES to the JVC X500.
So, the Sony is a good machine, but JVC is much better in my humble opinion.
you are correct, it's not accurate. The X500 in a worst case scenario (max zoom open iris) is still ~30K:1 vs. the Sony's ~6K:1
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