Epson 4K (enhancement) e-shift laser projector....!!!!!! - Page 141 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4201 of 4899 Old 03-01-2017, 01:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5saladz View Post
So did you deep probe my pictures? ;-)
No :-)
but I know the photography of those movies,
and used on a calibrated panel, it is evident a predominance Blue/Red

Sorry for my bad English
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post #4202 of 4899 Old 03-01-2017, 03:04 AM
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Does anyone besides of me use a Harmony Touch (or another Harmony model) remote for this projector, and if so - have you found a smart way to assign other lens memories than 1 and 2 to any buttons? And how about assigning different buttons to different memory settings (i.e one button for my UHD setting, one for my BD setting and so on)?

I have searched for discrete IR codes, but haven't found any.

Any ideas?

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post #4203 of 4899 Old 03-01-2017, 03:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icaro View Post
No :-)
but I know the photography of those movies,
and used on a calibrated panel, it is evident a predominance Blue/Red
Good feedback. I have an idea to address this. I will try and have a tweak tonight and share some results. Thanks!

Atmos 5.2.2 setup: Silver Ticket 100" screen, Epson LS10000, Denon AVR X2200, Xbox One X.
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post #4204 of 4899 Old 03-01-2017, 04:57 PM
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I wanna buy this one. I don't need HDR yet, so It may be a best choice for me if I purchase for good price.

Please let me know dealer who is selling this one at good price before LS10500 relesed!
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post #4205 of 4899 Old 03-02-2017, 12:47 AM
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So I had a great night tweaking last night, and to my eyes massively improved my visual quality having read the numerous recent debates in this thread I had a better idea of what I was looking out for. It's fair to say I've done a complete 180 on my old settings. The image seems more natural in terms of colour balance, and pops more with better shadow detail.

So I ditched the AVForums settings and dialled in Bandyka's rec709 settings (on Natural as my European unit doesn't have THX mode). I used his RGB and RGBCMY settings, which looked more natural and less B/R heavy than before, which Icaro opened my eyes to. I might play around with Icaro's settings over the weekend as well and see which setting I prefer.

Power setting is Eco.

A few other changes I made - took gamma back down to 0 as the +2 simply wasn't needed anymore, and interestingly Superwhite to ON this time - it really made a great deal of difference especially as it revealed the colour gradients in the coloured squares test images.

I viewed Jurassic World which felt less tinted and Interstellar, which felt cleaner and crisper. I also definitely got a better sense of the 3dimensionality of the image which Icaro also said would be diminished in my older settings.

Thanks for the inspiration to keep tweaking guys!

Atmos 5.2.2 setup: Silver Ticket 100" screen, Epson LS10000, Denon AVR X2200, Xbox One X.
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post #4206 of 4899 Old 03-02-2017, 12:49 AM
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Could someone kindly check, this pattern (pixel alignment) on your disc AVS-HD? I have a bottom left corner, with a extensive darker area,
I do not know if it is the pattern or problem of the projector

The thing is most visible through your smartphone's camera

Thanks




Sorry for my bad English
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post #4207 of 4899 Old 03-02-2017, 02:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5saladz View Post
So I had a great night tweaking last night, and to my eyes massively improved my visual quality having read the numerous recent debates in this thread I had a better idea of what I was looking out for. It's fair to say I've done a complete 180 on my old settings. The image seems more natural in terms of colour balance, and pops more with better shadow detail.

So I ditched the AVForums settings and dialled in Bandyka's rec709 settings (on Natural as my European unit doesn't have THX mode). I used his RGB and RGBCMY settings, which looked more natural and less B/R heavy than before, which Icaro opened my eyes to. I might play around with Icaro's settings over the weekend as well and see which setting I prefer.

Power setting is Eco.

A few other changes I made - took gamma back down to 0 as the +2 simply wasn't needed anymore, and interestingly Superwhite to ON this time - it really made a great deal of difference especially as it revealed the colour gradients in the coloured squares test images.

I viewed Jurassic World which felt less tinted and Interstellar, which felt cleaner and crisper. I also definitely got a better sense of the 3dimensionality of the image which Icaro also said would be diminished in my older settings.

Thanks for the inspiration to keep tweaking guys!
Would you care to share your current settings?

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post #4208 of 4899 Old 03-02-2017, 03:23 AM
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Hi there. If you go back to page 131 I think it is, Bandyka has gone into great detail on them. All credit to him for the settings I am using, with a few tweaks via Icaro.

Atmos 5.2.2 setup: Silver Ticket 100" screen, Epson LS10000, Denon AVR X2200, Xbox One X.
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post #4209 of 4899 Old 03-02-2017, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5saladz View Post
Hi there. If you go back to page 131 I think it is, Bandyka has gone into great detail on them. All credit to him for the settings I am using, with a few tweaks via Icaro.
Cheers. Link is in my signature. Glad things are working out for you.

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post #4210 of 4899 Old 03-03-2017, 07:49 AM
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Sorry if this level of detail is already provided for the LS10000 somewhere, but I couldn't find it using search tools, but I found an interesting grid of supported resolutions and subsampling in the 5040ub thread and was wondering if the LS10000K is the same (wouldn't be surprised as it's also an Epson faux-K machine).

Interesting to see what the Xbox One S outputs as well...

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-dig...rs-thread.html

Atmos 5.2.2 setup: Silver Ticket 100" screen, Epson LS10000, Denon AVR X2200, Xbox One X.
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post #4211 of 4899 Old 03-03-2017, 08:29 AM
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Quick request for Icaro - are you able to share your RGBCMY settings please? I notice that you didn't share them, so I can't try out your settings.

Atmos 5.2.2 setup: Silver Ticket 100" screen, Epson LS10000, Denon AVR X2200, Xbox One X.
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post #4212 of 4899 Old 03-03-2017, 09:07 AM
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I do not use the CMS of the projector, I only set the White 2pt. (30% 100%),
then for the rest he is dealing automatically the Lightspace CMS, creating the 3DLUT

Sorry for my bad English
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post #4213 of 4899 Old 03-03-2017, 10:20 AM
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I won't pretend to know what that means. Does it mean you leave them on default settings?

Atmos 5.2.2 setup: Silver Ticket 100" screen, Epson LS10000, Denon AVR X2200, Xbox One X.
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post #4214 of 4899 Old 03-03-2017, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5saladz View Post
I won't pretend to know what that means. Does it mean you leave them on default settings?
Yes

Sorry for my bad English
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post #4215 of 4899 Old 03-03-2017, 10:27 PM
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He is using an external tool.

JVC RS620/X9500 in bat cave Anthem MRX-720 + 3xpower amps = 7.1.4, Martin Logan Motion 60XT fronts, ML FX rears, ML Motion 50XT centre, 4 x ML Motion 2 on ceiling Atmos, ML Balanced force 210 as the beast. Panasonic UB900, STAX-3170 earspeakers, HTPC, PS4, PS3, Amiga 500 etc..Epson LS10000 calibration and WCG SDR settings: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post50298297
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post #4216 of 4899 Old 03-06-2017, 07:25 AM
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For those of you in really dark/black rooms, what gamma curve are you using? I really liked how bt1886 looked on my previous JVCs. Once I get Chad B out to calibrate, we'll figure it out but just curious what people have targeted with this projector.
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post #4217 of 4899 Old 03-06-2017, 07:52 AM
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@DavidHir You know mine from PMs, but sharing it here to contribute to the thread. @Andreas21 calibrated mine to 2,4 power gamma (-2 in the gamma control), which we both agreed looked best in my black treated HT. This gave a noticeable increase in depth and dimensionality to the picture when compared to the old calibration, where gamma was set to 2,3 (-1), which looked a bit flatter in comparison.

The old calibration with gamma at 2,3 was done to suit my HT before I had it completely treated, with a white ceiling and only medium dark walls.
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post #4218 of 4899 Old 03-06-2017, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5saladz View Post
Sorry if this level of detail is already provided for the LS10000 somewhere, but I couldn't find it using search tools, but I found an interesting grid of supported resolutions and subsampling in the 5040ub thread and was wondering if the LS10000K is the same (wouldn't be surprised as it's also an Epson faux-K machine).

Interesting to see what the Xbox One S outputs as well...

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/68-dig...rs-thread.html
That thread is 210 pages long... which post is it?

/Spygg
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post #4219 of 4899 Old 03-06-2017, 08:18 AM
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Referring to the grid on the first page

Atmos 5.2.2 setup: Silver Ticket 100" screen, Epson LS10000, Denon AVR X2200, Xbox One X.
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post #4220 of 4899 Old 03-06-2017, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by kohe321 View Post
@DavidHir You know mine from PMs, but sharing it here to contribute to the thread. @Andreas21 calibrated mine to 2,4 power gamma (-2 in the gamma control), which we both agreed looked best in my black treated HT. This gave a noticeable increase in depth and dimensionality to the picture when compared to the old calibration, where gamma was set to 2,3 (-1), which looked a bit flatter in comparison.

The old calibration with gamma at 2,3 was done to suit my HT before I had it completely treated, with a white ceiling and only medium dark walls.
Was that achieved just using the pjs own controls, or an outboard processor like a Lumagen?

I've still to get mine done...

Cheers

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post #4221 of 4899 Old 03-06-2017, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
Was that achieved just using the pjs own controls, or an outboard processor like a Lumagen?

I've still to get mine done...

Cheers
Yes, the calibration was done entirely with the projectors own internal tools. Epson's adjustment system isn't the best, but he got it all very close to perfect after some tweaking. The fact that things had remained completely stable helped quite a bit seeing as I'm not using an external processor. For example, had the gamma drifted it would've been difficult to set it up correctly with the limited tools given in Epson's system. Thankfully it seems to remain stable as a rock.

And on that, this is an area I really hope they improve on in the future, giving a better internal control system that can match JVC. This and also implementing an iris in front of the imaging chips that drastically improve image contrast when closed down, instead of the lens iris in the LS10k which really doesn't improve contrast a lot. In my current setup I get 21,7fl with an open iris on my 92" screen in eco-mode. If the contrast improved like it does on JVCs from closing the iris, there really would be a lot potential for more contrast in a setup like mine. These are two of the areas where JVC definitely has hit the nail on the head.

Edit: One thing I just remembered. For anyone calibrating this projector, you should know that color readings from the calibration square you have aimed the meter towards will change when you close the menu where you adjust settings. I think it was red that increases over the entire image with the menu open, so one needs to adjust it with this slight alteration in mind, aiming for a flat reading with no menu on screen. @Andreas21 can probably elaborate, this is just what I picked up from watching him do it.
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post #4222 of 4899 Old 03-06-2017, 09:22 AM
 
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Originally Posted by kohe321 View Post
Yes, the calibration was done entirely with the projectors own internal tools. Epson's adjustment system isn't the best, but he got it all very close to perfect after some tweaking. The fact that things had remained completely stable helped quite a bit seeing as I'm not using an external processor. For example, had the gamma drifted it would've been difficult to set it up correctly with the limited tools given in Epson's system. Thankfully it seems to remain stable as a rock.

And on that, this is an area I really hope they improve on in the future, giving a better internal control system that can match JVC. This and also implementing an iris in front of the imaging chips that drastically improve image contrast when closed down, instead of the lens iris in the LS10k which really doesn't improve contrast a lot. In my current setup I get 21,7fl with an open iris on my 92" screen in eco-mode. If the contrast improved like it does on JVCs from closing the iris, there really would be a lot potential for more contrast in a setup like mine. These are two of the areas where JVC definitely has hit the nail on the head.

Edit: One thing I just remembered. For anyone calibrating this projector, you should know that color readings from the calibration square you have aimed the meter towards will change when you close the menu where you adjust settings. I think it was red that increases over the entire image with the menu open, so one needs to adjust it with this slight alteration in mind, aiming for a flat reading with no menu on screen. @Andreas21 can probably elaborate, this is just what I picked up from watching him do it.
It is true the menu affects the readings (both grayscale and gamut readings) on the LS10000/10500 so the calibrator have to have this in mind when calibrating. This does not happen with other projectors other than when measuring the dark end of the grayscale/gamma, with the 10000/10500 it happens with all measurements.

And the gamma on yours was very linear so we did not have to use the very limited gamma adjustments.

Last edited by Andreas21; 03-06-2017 at 09:26 AM.
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post #4223 of 4899 Old 03-07-2017, 06:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot View Post
That doesn't necessarily apply across all brands and can depend on set up - some experimentation is required to see if it's better or not. 16 to 235 is the standard for video but sometimes that may not give best results.

For example, Kris Deering also appears to use Super white with the LS10000:

http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...41Q5ZZ0rhB6.97

That was with earlier firmware and may not be the case now though. It may also depend on your individual video chain.
Exactly Gary,
Today (after a long time), I realized that even the settings recommended by AVF use Superwhite:
https://www.avforums.com/video/epson...settings.11572

About the Dynamic range (16-235, 0-255), I repeat,
the Superwhite I use in Video Level 16-235,
as the two reviews at the links above.
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Sorry for my bad English
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post #4224 of 4899 Old 03-08-2017, 08:05 AM
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Today I found the measurements of LS10000 just new, with 20 hours of use,
lately I realized the great predominance of blue during measurements,
and great difficulty in arranging the Greyscale on 2pt. compared to the beginning.

Look at the difference.

both measurements were taken with the same settings:
Natural mode to default, with lamp in Medium, Iris at -10
Without calibration

at 20 Hours (Not bad I would say)



after 300 hours



Now with Gamma 0 to default, it measures 2.36
while at the beginning (as we all think) I measured in Gamma 0 about 2.18
while the contrast CR seems doubled.

Someone else has checked the measurements at the beginning (out of box)
and after a few hundred hours ?

Honestly, I seem to be the first to have found these changes

I have to start worrying ?
Someone said Sony...?

Sorry for my bad English
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post #4225 of 4899 Old 03-08-2017, 11:53 AM
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That plot looks a bit odd to me - the green and blue are almost mirrored, but as the blue laser is separate from the red and green which is from the second laser, I would think that it is unlikely to be the laser or the phosphor. If it was something to do with how the lasers are being driven, I would have thought the green and red would suffer in much the same way (as it's the same laser and phosphor), but they're very different.

Have you tried your calibration kit against anther display to see if that has the same results? Maybe the meter is bad or a software configuration issue?

Does a grey scale ramp show what you are measuring? What you have measured there should be easily visible.

A few people have had their LS10000s calibration checked after 1000 hours with no deviation, so yours does look unusual. You are covered by the warranty though, so no real worries if it is a pj problem.
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Who says Cameron is "right" and why do we care about him so much - lol!

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post #4226 of 4899 Old 03-08-2017, 12:08 PM
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Now I have no photos of Greyscale,
However, even with those values (by eye) the Greyscale is visibly neutral

The software I tried both with Lightspace CMS, which with HCFR,
same result.

For the probe, I measured with:
i1Pro
1D3
1D3 + correction matrix

Now, or have broken both, both i1D3 that i1Pro,
or is it a problem of the projector
Yet at the beginning I had no difficulty in the linearized RGB triplet,
with the same instruments and tools.

Sorry for my bad English
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post #4227 of 4899 Old 03-08-2017, 12:25 PM
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Hard to say what's wrong if the greyscale is visibly neutral, but the probes say you have a visible greyscale drift - I'd be incline to believe my eyes in this case I guess and blame the measurements, but it's weird that different software and probes are giving the same results.

All your calibrations are in a LUT box aren't they? Could the LUT box be in error? Can you measure the pj without the LUT box? What does the pj look like without it?

Quote:
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Who says Cameron is "right" and why do we care about him so much - lol!

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post #4228 of 4899 Old 03-08-2017, 12:36 PM
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These measurements were made in Natural mode in default,
without any calibration Lut loaded

Sorry for my bad English
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post #4229 of 4899 Old 03-08-2017, 12:54 PM
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I just had a closer look at the graph, and the dE scale is 0 to 0.5 - generally we can only see errors above a dE of 3 so that may account for why the greyscale still looks OK by eye. But even though the error is small, it's still a change over the original measurements which is odd.

If you measure the pj from the lens, rather than from the screen, do you get the same results? Are all measurements being taken in much the same way and with the meter in the same place as before?

What is also strange, is that you say you are now measuring almost double the CR - I found that you can reduce the brightness control from zero and the black level will decrease further, so I wonder if there is an issue with the iris (try it at zero) or with the dynamic laser operation. Is the DL off when you calibrate?

As you can see, I'm guessing at things, but hopefully you may find something that will help get to the bottom of the problem.

Edit: just did some light calculations and it comes out with navy blue/purple as a colour which may be affecting the measurements - so possibly a blue laser issue. Or some background dark blue light that is biasing the measurements moe the dimmer the output becomes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elmalloc
Who says Cameron is "right" and why do we care about him so much - lol!

I trust Gary Lightfoot more than James Cameron.

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post #4230 of 4899 Old 03-08-2017, 01:28 PM
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Thank you very much Gary,

This is the Delta-E

20 Hours


300 Hours


Yes, the measurements were always taken in the same way,
with the probe at the same place

I never tried to measure the lens.

the Dynamic Iris is always off,
But now, you made me think that during the measurements, I have the impression, that Iris moves, because sometimes I feel the small mechanical noise of the DL, though it is turned off.

Can this be the problem ?
But today I did a lot of measurements, and the results were always the same...

Sorry for my bad English
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