Epson 4K (enhancement) e-shift laser projector....!!!!!! - Page 159 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4741 of 4899 Old 10-29-2017, 10:39 PM
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The laser dimming on fade-to-black is creepy...and awesome. Never seen anything quite like it. Very much enjoying the LS10000 so far.
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post #4742 of 4899 Old 11-05-2017, 12:50 AM
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I am looking to optimize my gamma for SDR/BT2020 especially shadow detail, low APL.

Can someone tell me to what those different Color Tones in the gamma custom settings refer to? I read somewhere that Color Tone 2 for instance does not mean IRE 20 and so forth.

TIA
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post #4743 of 4899 Old 11-05-2017, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gaspimp View Post
The laser dimming on fade-to-black is creepy...and awesome. Never seen anything quite like it. Very much enjoying the LS10000 so far.
Yes and to some extent this gives the Epson a definite advantage over the JVC lamp based projectors (which are extremely good and have the best 3D I've seen outside of DLP and OLED). For 2D including 4K 2D the Epson IMO is all you need. I'm not a big fan of HDR (I have HDR with three of my TVs {and DV with two} and with two of my projectors and prefer content without this feature.) The Epson for nearly all content should satisfy nearly everyone except some on this forum, who will never find whatever it is they're looking for when it comes to PQ.

What I find ironic is all the criticism Epson took about the laser in its projectors, which have proven to be very reliable and yet the same people who criticized Epson have had little to say about the lasers in the JVC and Sony -- projectors which cost multiple times the cost of the Epson.
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post #4744 of 4899 Old 11-16-2017, 07:51 PM
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Has anyone tried the Apple TV 4K with this projector, and if so - what's the impressions, good things, bad things and recommended settings? And is it possible to get HDR from it via a HDFury Linker?

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post #4745 of 4899 Old 11-17-2017, 04:17 PM
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Really interested in an LS10500.

I'm heavily into DIY calibration, but the only spectro I have is an i1pro2. Have BasICColor Discus and i1d3 OEM and retail colorimeters

I know there has been some discussion that laser light sources need a 2nm spectro for profiling. Has this proven to be true in practice? How are the results using an i1pro2? Has anyone tried the high resolution mode in Argyll? Does that improve matters at all? What is the nature of the error if there is an error in using an i1pro2?
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post #4746 of 4899 Old 11-17-2017, 10:07 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spygg View Post
Has anyone tried the Apple TV 4K with this projector, and if so - what's the impressions, good things, bad things and recommended settings? And is it possible to get HDR from it via a HDFury Linker?


You can do a version of HDR on it I call HarperVision using a Linker or Vertex. See the links below in my signature for details.
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post #4747 of 4899 Old 11-19-2017, 06:00 PM
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Vertex is shipping. So has anyone played with it yet? Any suggestions on recommended setup? I've done SDR BT2020 with the Linker and used the Harpervision settings for WCG.

I'm interested in the best setup for the LS10000. So, anybody set this up yet? Thanks!
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post #4748 of 4899 Old 11-22-2017, 12:13 AM
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long term stability

I've posted in the 10500 thread as that is the PJ I'm considering, but really interested in any long-term objective data on panel / phosphors stability for LS10000 as these should now have some hours on them from serious users (I think we all understand the laser itself should remain bright for a long time).
Here is the post, all comment gratefully received.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post55178020


Quote:
Originally Posted by Icaro View Post
Today I found the measurements of LS10000 just new, with 20 hours of use,
lately I realized the great predominance of blue during measurements,
and great difficulty in arranging the Greyscale on 2pt. compared to the beginning.

Look at the difference.
Did you get to the bottom of this? So far yours is the only report I've seen of significant ageing of these projectors. Would love to see some data from other customers, and any feedback you got from Epson on this.

Last edited by bobof; 11-22-2017 at 12:37 AM.
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post #4749 of 4899 Old 11-22-2017, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by longshorejl View Post
Vertex is shipping. So has anyone played with it yet? Any suggestions on recommended setup? I've done SDR BT2020 with the Linker and used the Harpervision settings for WCG.
I also would be interested on using the Vertex, with the LS10000. I have read the comments using a linker, which I do not own, so any suggestions/comments for vertex would be appreciated. The options are pretty overwhelming.
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post #4750 of 4899 Old 11-22-2017, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
I've posted in the 10500 thread as that is the PJ I'm considering, but really interested in any long-term objective data on panel / phosphors stability for LS10000 as these should now have some hours on them from serious users (I think we all understand the laser itself should remain bright for a long time).
Here is the post, all comment gratefully received.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post55178020



Did you get to the bottom of this? So far yours is the only report I've seen of significant ageing of these projectors. Would love to see some data from other customers, and any feedback you got from Epson on this.
I have nearly 6000 hrs on my LS10000, and I'm approaching the 3yr warranty limit. I use mid-power mode almost exclusively and have not noticed any dimming or color shift. I've lost my baseline measurements from when I first bought the pj, but I can try to take any new measurements you guys want. I have a Lightspace HTL kit with an i1 Display Pro meter.
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post #4751 of 4899 Old 11-22-2017, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darrellh44 View Post
I have nearly 6000 hrs on my LS10000, and I'm approaching the 3yr warranty limit. I use mid-power mode almost exclusively and have not noticed any dimming or color shift. I've lost my baseline measurements from when I first bought the pj, but I can try to take any new measurements you guys want. I have a Lightspace HTL kit with an i1 Display Pro meter.
6K in 3 years , wow, slightly more than even I'm going to put on it. Nice one!
I'm be interested to see what your gamma, greyscale and primary / saturation sweeps look like at 6K hours.
Have you calibrated frequently or just left it be?
I see you are a Lightspace user - does this mean you're using a 3DLUT to correct it? If so, what processor? Do you re-profile frequently? Do you have a pre-LUT profile? I've got a Lumagen 2143 I may well be using with this.
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post #4752 of 4899 Old 11-22-2017, 04:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobof View Post
6K in 3 years , wow, slightly more than even I'm going to put on it. Nice one!
I'm be interested to see what your gamma, greyscale and primary / saturation sweeps look like at 6K hours.
Have you calibrated frequently or just left it be?
I see you are a Lightspace user - does this mean you're using a 3DLUT to correct it? If so, what processor? Do you re-profile frequently? Do you have a pre-LUT profile? I've got a Lumagen 2143 I may well be using with this.
I grabbed a used RadiancePro 4240 several months ago when it was available, and purchased the Lightspace kit shortly after that. I'm ashamed to say I haven't run any calibrations yet. I had a lot going on when I made the purchase, and then wound up putting it off for awhile. I'm going to get off my butt this holiday weekend and get the 4240 going. I'll try and post the measurements this weekend as well.
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post #4753 of 4899 Old 11-26-2017, 12:20 PM
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Anyone watched Spider-man Homecoming on this PJ and needed to up the brightness of their settings? All other movies, / sources were fine but this needed tweaking

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Atmos 5.2.2 setup: Silver Ticket 100" screen, Epson LS10000, Denon AVR X2200, Xbox One X.
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post #4754 of 4899 Old 11-26-2017, 12:32 PM
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I saw the BD the other day and it looked fine to me. What was wrong with yours? Crushing blacks?

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post #4755 of 4899 Old 11-26-2017, 01:02 PM
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I saw the BD the other day and it looked fine to me. What was wrong with yours? Crushing blacks?
Blu-ray was fine colour wise, but the Uhd looked overcast or washed out. Usually have gamma at zero, but had to bump it to plus 2 to get some pop. Only uhd disc I've had an issue with.

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post #4756 of 4899 Old 12-09-2017, 11:04 AM
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Has anyone used the Xbox One S as their 4K player?

I’m assuming it’s not as good as the Oppo or Panasonic, but maybe good enough until I can work one of the others in my budget.


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post #4757 of 4899 Old 12-09-2017, 01:23 PM
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Has anyone used the Xbox One S as their 4K player?

I’m assuming it’s not as good as the Oppo or Panasonic, but maybe good enough until I can work one of the others in my budget.


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I was using one until I got an X. Looked and sounded fine to me.

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post #4758 of 4899 Old 12-09-2017, 03:26 PM
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I was using one until I got an X. Looked and sounded fine to me.

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Thanks.

How’s the gameplay on this projector?


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post #4759 of 4899 Old 12-10-2017, 03:21 AM
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Thanks.

How’s the gameplay on this projector?


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Fantastic. You feed it 4k 8-bit non-HDR signals and I don't feel any lag. I used to play via RGB on CRT and on plasma screens so could detect significant lag.

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post #4760 of 4899 Old 12-29-2017, 10:05 AM
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Currently experimenting with the Harpervision HDR settings for my LS10000/Oppo-203. Oppo is set to HDR "forced", with output set to 4K 24p (as oppposed to source direct) 8-bit. I've tried on both Digital Cinema mode and Adobe RGB mode on the projector to keep the expanded gamut filter in place. Adobe RGB actually looks like a better, more detailed picture to me, to confirm what others are seeing.

It seems the response is highly dependent on source material. I don't have a light meter, but my gross/eyeball adjustments indicate that, for example, John Wick 2 requires contrast and saturation be set to the high levels Dave describes, if you are going for his pseudo-gamma-compensated settings for HDR. It was almost as if I were watching a video-level output with the projector set to 0-255 PC levels. Gamma was visibly off no matter what I did, giving me a washed out picture, climbing out of black way too quickly, and it was even worse at the upper end. However, my viewing of Pacific Rim using the same settings required very little if any adjustment for contrast and color saturation from default. Currently running with contrast at 0 and saturation at ~14 for that movie. Are different discs mastered to different anticipated gamma curves for playback? Pacific Rim, for my money, seems the better showcase of Dave's gamma compensation for pseudo-HDR, but not with the contrast/saturation jacked like he has.

Edit: To add some confusion, I do find that conserving the WCG info but abandoning Harpervision/HDR for John Wick/John Wick 2 is the better choice for those movies (I do this, I think, by selecting "strip metadata" instead of "forced" on the oppo...not noticing the red push from the older firmware as much). I find the gamma is still a bit off when I do this, but it is in the other direction...it crushes some black, but at least you end up with a really punchy picture/authoritative and slow rise out of black. With Dave's settings/passing HDR on the opening chase sequence of Wick 2, Wick is driving a nice inky black '70 Chevelle, and everything else is blown out/washed out. Also, the catacombs scene reveals some heinous banding in the bright working lights/dark tunnels that doesn't show up if I let the player convert to SDR first. Takes me right out of the movie, like suddenly he's on the evening news.

I feel spoiled every time I watch a bluray on this thing. Skyfall on this projector, for example...arouses me.

Last edited by hithere; 12-29-2017 at 10:37 AM.
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post #4761 of 4899 Old 12-29-2017, 10:58 AM
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UHD disks can be mastered to different nit levels (1000 or 4000 for example) so the settings needed may need to be different for best results for each level - if you read the JVC threads with current models that are HDR compatible, even with custom curves you see people saying they need more than one setting and often have to tweak things for best results, so that could be what you're finding.

I'm using an HDFury Linker and Panasonic UB700 with my LS1000 and I watch UHD disks with WCG and tone mapped to replicate SDR, and I'm very happy with the results. 2020 was achieved using the Adobe colour space to get to P3 rather than Digital Cinema.

I recently saw the lastest JVC and laser Sony (760 here in the UK I think) using custom gamma curves, and HDR still doesn't do much for me, so for the time being I'm more than happy with what I have. As you say, even Blu Ray looks great, and that's about 97% of my viewing.
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post #4762 of 4899 Old 12-29-2017, 04:10 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hithere View Post
Currently experimenting with the Harpervision HDR settings for my LS10000/Oppo-203. Oppo is set to HDR "forced", with output set to 4K 24p (as oppposed to source direct) 8-bit. I've tried on both Digital Cinema mode and Adobe RGB mode on the projector to keep the expanded gamut filter in place. Adobe RGB actually looks like a better, more detailed picture to me, to confirm what others are seeing.



It seems the response is highly dependent on source material. I don't have a light meter, but my gross/eyeball adjustments indicate that, for example, John Wick 2 requires contrast and saturation be set to the high levels Dave describes, if you are going for his pseudo-gamma-compensated settings for HDR. It was almost as if I were watching a video-level output with the projector set to 0-255 PC levels. Gamma was visibly off no matter what I did, giving me a washed out picture, climbing out of black way too quickly, and it was even worse at the upper end. However, my viewing of Pacific Rim using the same settings required very little if any adjustment for contrast and color saturation from default. Currently running with contrast at 0 and saturation at ~14 for that movie. Are different discs mastered to different anticipated gamma curves for playback? Pacific Rim, for my money, seems the better showcase of Dave's gamma compensation for pseudo-HDR, but not with the contrast/saturation jacked like he has.



Edit: To add some confusion, I do find that conserving the WCG info but abandoning Harpervision/HDR for John Wick/John Wick 2 is the better choice for those movies (I do this, I think, by selecting "strip metadata" instead of "forced" on the oppo...not noticing the red push from the older firmware as much). I find the gamma is still a bit off when I do this, but it is in the other direction...it crushes some black, but at least you end up with a really punchy picture/authoritative and slow rise out of black. With Dave's settings/passing HDR on the opening chase sequence of Wick 2, Wick is driving a nice inky black '70 Chevelle, and everything else is blown out/washed out. Also, the catacombs scene reveals some heinous banding in the bright working lights/dark tunnels that doesn't show up if I let the player convert to SDR first. Takes me right out of the movie, like suddenly he's on the evening news.



I feel spoiled every time I watch a bluray on this thing. Skyfall on this projector, for example...arouses me.

Sorry to hear you're having issues. Yes Gordon is right. Different discs have different levels they're mastered to. My reference UHD HDR disc for making those initial HarperVision settings was The Revenant and when I put other discs on I did notice that some needed some additional tweaking, like the contrast color and tint as you mention. What I did was save different memories and named them 1,000 nit HDR, 4,000 bit HDR, etc. if I recall.

This is why I stressed over and over again that these settings were just a baseline starting point of my concept to use SDR mode for HDR sources to help with brightness and that you must tweak them to your environment and sources. I do have both John Wick UHD BRs and I'll test them on the Sony 285 and Optoma UHZ65 I have here and compare them to Revanent and others.

I remember trying Adobe RGB and could just never seem to get the results that I got with Digital Cinema. If you guys got it, more power to ya!

I do have some updated settings for the LS10500 that should be better than what I've posted previously. I redid it basically from scratch when I sold my LS10500. I apologize, especially to the buyer, that I haven't been able to post them sooner due to my serious medical issues and now my workload making up time I missed and of course the Holidays! I'll dig them up and post them soon!
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post #4763 of 4899 Old 12-30-2017, 06:41 PM
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I've been out of the projector game for awhile but these new laser machines have me piqued my interest. With that said, do you guys think the prices of the 10k an 10.5 will lower by Q3 of 2018?

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post #4764 of 4899 Old 12-30-2017, 09:24 PM
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I've been out of the projector game for awhile but these new laser machines have me piqued my interest. With that said, do you guys think the prices of the 10k an 10.5 will lower by Q3 of 2018?

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I think the LS10000 has been down to b-stock only availability for quite awhile - sells for ~$4500. By 3Q 2018 the LS10500 will have been out for over 2 years with a newer replacement model likely due. By that time I would expect to see lower prices on the LS10500 and probably only used LS10000s available.

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post #4765 of 4899 Old 12-30-2017, 10:19 PM
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I think the LS10000 has been down to b-stock only availability for quite awhile - sells for ~$4500. By 3Q 2018 the LS10500 will have been out for over 2 years with a newer replacement model likely due. By that time I would expect to see lower prices on the LS10500 and probably only used LS10000s available.
Thanks for the heads up. If that is indeed the case then hopefully a b-stock 10500 will be in the $4500 range by Q3. I know this is all speculative information that could change at any time but at least I have a general idea of what to expect when the time comes for me to buy.

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post #4766 of 4899 Old 12-31-2017, 09:49 PM
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Thanks for the heads up. If that is indeed the case then hopefully a b-stock 10500 will be in the $4500 range by Q3. I know this is all speculative information that could change at any time but at least I have a general idea of what to expect when the time comes for me to buy.

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They are each fantastic machines. I got ripped off on my purchase (paid about $1500 more than I needed), but after a year I'm still pleased with it to the point it doesn't sting as bad. The image Epson has a "painted on" look that I don't see in other projectors anywhere near its price range. It's the only image in my house I can just lose myself in, and forget about all the signal chain stuff. Just solid image and wonderful motion.
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post #4767 of 4899 Old 01-04-2018, 01:08 PM
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Help with Settings

I have a LS10000 and have recently purchased the UB-900 and HD linker. My problem is I am unsure of the settings for both the UB-900 and Linker so I will be able to use the Harper Settings. Could someone either post a link or PM me what I need to have everything set to so I can do this? Thanks in Advance.
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post #4768 of 4899 Old 01-05-2018, 07:51 PM
 
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I have a LS10000 and have recently purchased the UB-900 and HD linker. My problem is I am unsure of the settings for both the UB-900 and Linker so I will be able to use the Harper Settings. Could someone either post a link or PM me what I need to have everything set to so I can do this? Thanks in Advance.

The link should be below my signature. You may have to use a PC web browser to see it.
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post #4769 of 4899 Old 01-05-2018, 09:36 PM
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thanks for the response but I am looking for more help with the linker and player settings so I can then use your baseline settings for the projector.
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post #4770 of 4899 Old 01-08-2018, 08:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by FeeFi View Post
thanks for the response but I am looking for more help with the linker and player settings so I can then use your baseline settings for the projector.

Oh OK. For the player I just left it in default mode pretty much if I recall. I think maybe I selected to run 4K60p at 4:2:0 or whatever due to the limited HDMI inputs, for when I was in the main menu. Sorry I don't have the Epsons anymore so I'm going by memory.

For the Linker (which I also no longer have, but I have a Vertex) I selected custom EDID 8 I believe on the first tab, then in the second HDR/AVI tab you want to check the "Disable HDR" box so you can fool the player into thinking your LS10000 is capable of HDR. This will send the full HDR signal to the projector but disable to HDR metadata so as far as the player knows you have an HDR display and the projector just thinks it's an SDR signal, when in reality it's still full HDR WCG.



Then when you apply my HarperVision settings and custom gamma, it makes the image appear normal again, but also with the added benefit of it not being too dim, which is what most complain about with HDR on projectors, although it's getting better (as these manufacturers steal my ideas to implement in their new projector's firmware, haha! )
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