Epson 4K (enhancement) e-shift laser projector....!!!!!! - Page 160 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #4771 of 4899 Old 01-08-2018, 09:30 PM
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Thanks for the heads up. If that is indeed the case then hopefully a b-stock 10500 will be in the $4500 range by Q3. I know this is all speculative information that could change at any time but at least I have a general idea of what to expect when the time comes for me to buy.

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They are each fantastic machines. I got ripped off on my purchase (paid about $1500 more than I needed), but after a year I'm still pleased with it to the point it doesn't sting as bad. The image Epson has a "painted on" look that I don't see in other projectors anywhere near its price range. It's the only image in my house I can just lose myself in, and forget about all the signal chain stuff. Just solid image and wonderful motion.
I'm curious how you might compare the experience between a good hd and a good uhd hdr film? I assume resolution is maybe very close but the color of the hdr is worth buying a title in hdr.

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post #4772 of 4899 Old 01-14-2018, 01:43 PM
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Hi all. Anyone running an Xbox One S or X to their PJ? If so, would anyone mind sharing the 4k diagnostic screen the Xbox shows the PJ as being capable of? I want to make sure my cables / receiver are delivering the right signal.

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Atmos 5.2.2 setup: Silver Ticket 100" screen, Epson LS10000, Denon AVR X2200, Xbox One X.
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post #4773 of 4899 Old 01-14-2018, 06:41 PM
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Hi all. Anyone running an Xbox One S or X to their PJ? If so, would anyone mind sharing the 4k diagnostic screen the Xbox shows the PJ as being capable of? I want to make sure my cables / receiver are delivering the right signal.

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Here is what I get.
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Anthem AVM 60, Paradigm Sub 2, Paradigm S8s with C5, Anthem Statement M1 Amps, 174" Curved AT Scope Screen, Epson Pro Cinema LS10000 Laser 3D Projector, Samsung 4K Blu-ray Player, Oculus Rift, Quest and Go VR, Xbox One X, PS4, Clark Synthesis Transducer For Chair
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post #4774 of 4899 Old 01-15-2018, 03:56 AM
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Here is what I get.
Thanks very much - that's exactly what I am seeing as well, so that is reassuring. If anyone else sees anything different to me and studly, please flag!

Atmos 5.2.2 setup: Silver Ticket 100" screen, Epson LS10000, Denon AVR X2200, Xbox One X.
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post #4775 of 4899 Old 01-17-2018, 11:46 AM
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The LS10000 doesn't have a HDMI2.0b (aka 18Ghz) port, and doesn't support HDR. It does support 4K60 input at 8-bit 4:2:0 however.

Mine is paired with a Lumagen Radiance Pro video processor, which takes a full 4KHDR signal from the Xbox and maps it to a DCI-P3 4K signal with luminance mapped to the brightness capabilities of the projector. The resulting experience is fantastic for both games and HDR video content.
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post #4776 of 4899 Old 01-17-2018, 04:04 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jamesmil View Post
The LS10000 doesn't have a HDMI2.0b (aka 18Ghz) port, and doesn't support HDR. It does support 4K60 input at 8-bit 4:2:0 however.



Mine is paired with a Lumagen Radiance Pro video processor, which takes a full 4KHDR signal from the Xbox and maps it to a DCI-P3 4K signal with luminance mapped to the brightness capabilities of the projector. The resulting experience is fantastic for both games and HDR video content.

Wow that sounds awesome jamesmil!

A poorer man's way of attaining a similar thing is to use an HDFury Linker or Vertex to trick the source into thinking it's connected to an HDR display and then applying my HarperVision tweaks, tone mapping and custom gamma curve while in SDR mode to hopefully get a similarly great image as yours with the Lumagen.

See the links below my signature for details.
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post #4777 of 4899 Old 02-02-2018, 08:46 PM
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I purchased a B-Stock Epson LS10000 from Mike Garrett last year in preparation for our new house. House took longer than expected, but finally got it hooked up today.

Pleasantly surprised to find zero hours of operation on the unit. Picture looks great and will be getting it calibrated Tuesday.


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post #4778 of 4899 Old 02-02-2018, 11:52 PM
 
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I purchased a B-Stock Epson LS10000 from Mike Garrett last year in preparation for our new house. House took longer than expected, but finally got it hooked up today.

Pleasantly surprised to find zero hours of operation on the unit. Picture looks great and will be getting it calibrated Tuesday.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Awesome! If I were you I would grab an Oppo 203 Bluray player (PM me) and try their latest beta firmware with the awesome new tone mapping HDR to SDR settings! Many including @Kris Deering are saying they're as good or better than creating custom gamma curves, maybe even better than my HarperVision tweaks.

Has someone tried these on an LS10000 yet, especially one with HarperVision so you can do a comparison? I don't have this or the LS10500 anymore.
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post #4779 of 4899 Old 02-03-2018, 03:43 AM
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Has someone tried these on an LS10000 yet, especially one with HarperVision so you can do a comparison? I don't have this or the LS10500 anymore.
Yes, I did. Mode2 of the Oppo seems to work fine for me. But there is still a little bluck crush IMO.
For some darker movies I prefer my tweaked HarperVision settings on the LS10k. With all the rest of the movies the tone mapping does a very fine job and colors are much accurater IMHO.
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post #4780 of 4899 Old 02-03-2018, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
Awesome! If I were you I would grab an Oppo 203 Bluray player (PM me) and try their latest beta firmware with the awesome new tone mapping HDR to SDR settings! Many including @Kris Deering are saying they're as good or better than creating custom gamma curves, maybe even better than my HarperVision tweaks.

Has someone tried these on an LS10000 yet, especially one with HarperVision so you can do a comparison? I don't have this or the LS10500 anymore.


You’re the second person who mentioned that Dave, so sounds like that’s the best option.

Right now I’m using an Xbox One S and will probably add the Oppo later.

It depends on how well the Zappiti 4K HDR media player does.


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post #4781 of 4899 Old 02-04-2018, 02:35 AM
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Yes, I did. Mode2 of the Oppo seems to work fine for me. But there is still a little bluck crush IMO.
For some darker movies I prefer my tweaked HarperVision settings on the LS10k. With all the rest of the movies the tone mapping does a very fine job and colors are much accurater IMHO.
Is this without a HDFury Linker/Vertex, and if so - what color mode do you use on the LS10000?

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post #4782 of 4899 Old 02-04-2018, 07:21 AM
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Is this without a HDFury Linker/Vertex, and if so - what color mode do you use on the LS10000?
Yes, it is (and the whole time even before this beta) was without a Linker/Vertex in the chain. I am using the Digital Cinema Mode on the LS10k with gamma @ -1, which is exactly 2.3.
Still need to fine tune things (BT.2020 calibration) and find a way to compensate for the black crush on 2.5% the oppo still has for me.
But I am very pleased with this beta release.
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post #4783 of 4899 Old 02-14-2018, 12:15 PM
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Still need to find a way to compensate for the black crush on 2.5% the oppo still has for me.
But I am very pleased with this beta release.
ok guys. the black "crush" is fixed. since I thought I need to check with HDR test patterns there is indeed a crush. But as we are doing a dynamic tone mapping to BT.1886 with the new oppo beta we need to check whites and blacks with SDR test patterns - and guess what: no more black crush.
i checked results on ls10k with my hdr flat screen. they look almost identical.

What I did to optimize:
LS10k: Digital Cinema Mode (Bandyka settings), Gamma -1, laser dimming normal
Brightness/Contrast settings: configured with SDR black/white test patterns
Oppo: HDR OFF (BT.2020), Mode 2, Target Luminance 150 nits (as I only get 12fL in Digital Cinema Mode on my wide screen). 100 nits target luminance was too low (I lose highlights), so I multiplied my max nits with factor 3.5 (~133 nits). As 100 nits was too low I chose 150 as the next step.

Image is superb now. Ways ahead of my modified HarperVision fake HDR settings. The new tone mapping feature is the way to go for SDR gamma only projectors, maybe even for HDR projectors with low light output (LS10500 or for folks with big screens).
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post #4784 of 4899 Old 02-15-2018, 04:47 AM
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Still need to find a way to compensate for the black crush on 2.5% the oppo still has for me.
But I am very pleased with this beta release.
ok guys. the black "crush" is fixed. since I thought I need to check with HDR test patterns there is indeed a crush. But as we are doing a dynamic tone mapping to BT.1886 with the new oppo beta we need to check whites and blacks with SDR test patterns - and guess what: no more black crush.
i checked results on ls10k with my hdr flat screen. they look almost identical.

What I did to optimize:
LS10k: Digital Cinema Mode (Bandyka settings), Gamma -1, laser dimming normal
Brightness/Contrast settings: configured with SDR black/white test patterns
Oppo: HDR OFF (BT.2020), Mode 2, Target Luminance 150 nits (as I only get 12fL in Digital Cinema Mode on my wide screen). 100 nits target luminance was too low (I lose highlights), so I multiplied my max nits with factor 3.5 (~133 nits). As 100 nits was too low I chose 150 as the next step.

Image is superb now. Ways ahead of my modified HarperVision fake HDR settings. The new tone mapping feature is the way to go for SDR gamma only projectors, maybe even for HDR projectors with low light output (LS10500 or for folks with big screens).
I don?t have a colorimeter so I have always used someone else?s color mapping. I know it?s not the best solution but it gets me close. Would you mind sharing all the details of those settings? Excited to try this method.

Thanks.
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post #4785 of 4899 Old 02-15-2018, 04:58 AM
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I don?t have a colorimeter so I have always used someone else?s color mapping. I know it?s not the best solution but it gets me close. Would you mind sharing all the details of those settings? Excited to try this method.

Thanks.
I am having problems to calibrate to BT.2020, so at the moment I am using Bandyka's settings for the Digital Cinema Mode:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post50298297
Look at the image: Here is the popular one, Wide Color Gamut mode.

edit:
It seems my colormeter is not profiled against a spectrometer. Out-of-the-box Digital Cinema mode seems to be more accurate than everything else posted.

Epson EH-LS10000, madVR on GTX 1080, Oppo UDP-203, Oppo BDP-EU93, Toshiba HD E1, Dreambox 900 ultraHD, Xodiac masked, AT, 3m scope (2.40:1), Marantz SR7011
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Last edited by AmigoHD; 02-18-2018 at 10:05 AM.
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post #4786 of 4899 Old 02-15-2018, 07:11 AM
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I am having problems to calibrate to BT.2020, so at the moment I am using Bandyka's settings for the Digital Cinema Mode:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-dig...l#post50298297
Look at the image: Here is the popular one, Wide Color Gamut mode.
For comparison, what did you end up with for Brightness, Contrast & Color Saturation?
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post #4787 of 4899 Old 02-15-2018, 07:20 AM
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Oh and Tint?
I had been using the Harper Settings for all those settings... 1,24,23,-17
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post #4788 of 4899 Old 02-15-2018, 07:45 AM
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For comparison, what did you end up with for Brightness, Contrast & Color Saturation?
For brightness and contrast you should use Test patterns, i.e AVS HD709, as all values can and will change when you switch HDR to SDR mode on the Oppo.

I am using following settings:
brightness 0
contrast -3
saturation 0
tint 0
color temp 2
skin tone 2
gamma -1

Epson EH-LS10000, madVR on GTX 1080, Oppo UDP-203, Oppo BDP-EU93, Toshiba HD E1, Dreambox 900 ultraHD, Xodiac masked, AT, 3m scope (2.40:1), Marantz SR7011
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post #4789 of 4899 Old 02-15-2018, 07:52 AM
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For brightness and contrast you should use Test patterns, i.e AVS HD709, as all values can and will change when you switch HDR to SDR mode on the Oppo.

I am using following settings:
brightness 0
contrast -3
saturation 0
tint 0
color temp 2
skin tone 2
gamma -1
Many thanks, I'm not sure what WCG should look like since I don't have a 4K panel at the house. With the color saturation dialed way up like I had it, the image was a super dynamic but also sort of fake. With saturation @ 0 it looks a little flat but maybe I got used to the oversaturated image.
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post #4790 of 4899 Old 02-15-2018, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Ccondo1 View Post
Many thanks, I'm not sure what WCG should look like since I don't have a 4K panel at the house. With the color saturation dialed way up like I had it, the image was a super dynamic but also sort of fake. With saturation @ 0 it looks a little flat but maybe I got used to the oversaturated image.
Well, the Harper Vision Settings were tweaked to compensate the under saturated colors in HDR mode.
But now, was we are doing a sort of dynamic HDR with the new oppo beta fw there is no need to over saturate. The oppo is doing it's magic of tone mapping. Of course a proper BT.2020 calibration still is needed which i don't have yet.
I just made some comparisons between my ls10k settings and my HDR flat. they look almost identical now. lots of dynamic, proper colors, neither over- nor under saturated. I am satisfied. a lot more than with HarperVision tweaks.
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post #4791 of 4899 Old 02-15-2018, 01:07 PM
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So basically the beta Oppo firmware allows 4k with wcg with sdr? Previously you needed the linker or vertex to do this, so now just the Oppo? This is great news! I haven't bought a uhd player yet, still very happy with regular blurays and the LS10000 in basically default modes. Fabulous projector and not just because it was a great price for B-stock.

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post #4792 of 4899 Old 02-15-2018, 01:18 PM
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So basically the beta Oppo firmware allows 4k with wcg with sdr? Previously you needed the linker or vertex to do this, so now just the Oppo? This is great news! I haven't bought a uhd player yet, still very happy with regular blurays and the LS10000 in basically default modes. Fabulous projector and not just because it was a great price for B-stock.
I never needed the linker even with previous firmwares. LS10k + Oppo always worked for me. In BT.709, BT.2020 + strip metadata, BT.2020 + HDR (Harper Vision settings).
But the new firmware is superb. The player uses a dynamic HDR to SDR conversion algorithm for tone mapping. As for the best gamma setting on the display, this really comes down to how dark you can get your home theater. If you have full control over the lightning, then 2.4 or BT.1886 will give you the best results. Otherwise, 2.2 will be best. I am at gamma -1, which measures exactly 2.35 for me.
I fine tuned the RGBCMY settings tonight. I used bandyka's settings as a baseline, which came in nicely. But I got a step further in terms of saturations. Deltas are now even smaller. All colors are fine now. Just green is problematic. 25% saturation is fine, 50% and 75% are nowhere and no way to correct them. But I had this problem with Bandyka's settings as well. All the rest is nearly perfect.
NOW I am happy! :-) Man I still love this LS10k.

Epson EH-LS10000, madVR on GTX 1080, Oppo UDP-203, Oppo BDP-EU93, Toshiba HD E1, Dreambox 900 ultraHD, Xodiac masked, AT, 3m scope (2.40:1), Marantz SR7011
3x Klipsch PRO-7800-L-THX, 6x Klipsch PRO-7800-S-THX (Dolby Atmos setup, 5.2.4)
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post #4793 of 4899 Old 02-16-2018, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by AmigoHD View Post
I never needed the linker even with previous firmwares. LS10k + Oppo always worked for me. In BT.709, BT.2020 + strip metadata, BT.2020 + HDR (Harper Vision settings).
But the new firmware is superb. The player uses a dynamic HDR to SDR conversion algorithm for tone mapping. As for the best gamma setting on the display, this really comes down to how dark you can get your home theater. If you have full control over the lightning, then 2.4 or BT.1886 will give you the best results. Otherwise, 2.2 will be best. I am at gamma -1, which measures exactly 2.35 for me.
I fine tuned the RGBCMY settings tonight. I used bandyka's settings as a baseline, which came in nicely. But I got a step further in terms of saturations. Deltas are now even smaller. All colors are fine now. Just green is problematic. 25% saturation is fine, 50% and 75% are nowhere and no way to correct them. But I had this problem with Bandyka's settings as well. All the rest is nearly perfect.
NOW I am happy! :-) Man I still love this LS10k.
Good stuff! Green is notoriously hard to get right so don't worry about it too much, good to see the new Oppo FW is working nicely.

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post #4794 of 4899 Old 02-16-2018, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by akgolf View Post
I purchased a B-Stock Epson LS10000 from Mike Garrett last year in preparation for our new house. House took longer than expected, but finally got it hooked up today.

Pleasantly surprised to find zero hours of operation on the unit. Picture looks great and will be getting it calibrated Tuesday.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Harper View Post
Awesome! If I were you I would grab an Oppo 203 Bluray player (PM me) and try their latest beta firmware with the awesome new tone mapping HDR to SDR settings! Many including @Kris Deering are saying they're as good or better than creating custom gamma curves, maybe even better than my HarperVision tweaks.

Has someone tried these on an LS10000 yet, especially one with HarperVision so you can do a comparison? I don't have this or the LS10500 anymore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bogg View Post
So basically the beta Oppo firmware allows 4k with wcg with sdr? Previously you needed the linker or vertex to do this, so now just the Oppo? This is great news! I haven't bought a uhd player yet, still very happy with regular blurays and the LS10000 in basically default modes. Fabulous projector and not just because it was a great price for B-stock.
Keep in mind all you are doing is switching the HDR tone mapping from the projector to the Oppo. You are not giving up anything. It is just that the Oppo does a better job with the HDR tone mapping than the projector.
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post #4795 of 4899 Old 02-16-2018, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by AmigoHD View Post
I never needed the linker even with previous firmwares. LS10k + Oppo always worked for me. In BT.709, BT.2020 + strip metadata, BT.2020 + HDR (Harper Vision settings).
But the new firmware is superb. The player uses a dynamic HDR to SDR conversion algorithm for tone mapping. As for the best gamma setting on the display, this really comes down to how dark you can get your home theater. If you have full control over the lightning, then 2.4 or BT.1886 will give you the best results. Otherwise, 2.2 will be best. I am at gamma -1, which measures exactly 2.35 for me.
I fine tuned the RGBCMY settings tonight. I used bandyka's settings as a baseline, which came in nicely. But I got a step further in terms of saturations. Deltas are now even smaller. All colors are fine now. Just green is problematic. 25% saturation is fine, 50% and 75% are nowhere and no way to correct them. But I had this problem with Bandyka's settings as well. All the rest is nearly perfect.
NOW I am happy! :-) Man I still love this LS10k.
Yep, the new tone mapping that came out with the beta firmware is a whole new ballgame. Anybody that has not tried it, should.
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post #4796 of 4899 Old 02-17-2018, 12:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Bandyka View Post
Good stuff! Green is notoriously hard to get right so don't worry about it too much, good to see the new Oppo FW is working nicely.
@Bandyka : What about delta luminance? I have -60% on almost every color (even with your posted settings), while xy I can get as close as possible.

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post #4797 of 4899 Old 02-17-2018, 01:51 AM
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Originally Posted by AmigoHD View Post
@Bandyka : What about delta luminance? I have -60% on almost every color (even with your posted settings), while xy I can get as close as possible.
I wish I could answer that but I've sold the LS long ago sorry I can't remember why it was set as such. I'll try to look up my settings an notes.

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post #4798 of 4899 Old 02-17-2018, 04:29 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Yep, the new tone mapping that came out with the beta firmware is a whole new ballgame. Anybody that has not tried it, should.

I agree Mike, and I AM HarperVision!

They did a great job. I kind of wish I had an LS10000 or LS10500 again!
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post #4799 of 4899 Old 02-17-2018, 06:21 AM
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Quote:
I fine tuned the RGBCMY settings tonight. I used bandyka's settings as a baseline, which came in nicely. But I got a step further in terms of saturations. Deltas are now even smaller. All colors are fine now. Just green is problematic. 25% saturation is fine, 50% and 75% are nowhere and no way to correct them. But I had this problem with Bandyka's settings as well. All the rest is nearly perfect.
NOW I am happy! :-) Man I still love this LS10k.
What did you change? Did you just do this by eye?
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post #4800 of 4899 Old 02-17-2018, 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Ccondo1 View Post
What did you change? Did you just do this by eye?
No, I was using HCFR and my colorimeter.

Epson EH-LS10000, madVR on GTX 1080, Oppo UDP-203, Oppo BDP-EU93, Toshiba HD E1, Dreambox 900 ultraHD, Xodiac masked, AT, 3m scope (2.40:1), Marantz SR7011
3x Klipsch PRO-7800-L-THX, 6x Klipsch PRO-7800-S-THX (Dolby Atmos setup, 5.2.4)
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